Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Ross): We welcome back Graham Walker. We also welcome Declan McGeown, chief executive of the Youth Justice Agency, and Kiera Lloyd, from the reducing offending policy unit in the Department of Justice. I ask you to brief us on the purpose of clauses 84 and 85 of the Bill. We will then move on to questions.

Mr Declan McGeown (Youth Justice Agency): Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to comment on the youth justice provisions in the Bill. There are two provisions in the Bill that relate to youth justice. The first, clause 84, is a substantive clause, which amends the existing aims of the youth justice system as set out in section 53 of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 to include the best interests' principle as espoused by article 3 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. This amendment gives effect to one of the key recommendations of the youth justice review team, namely, that the aims be changed to reflect the principle that all those involved in the youth justice system should have the best interests of the child as a primary consideration. How the criminal justice system deals with children who offend often determines the extent to which they desist from or carry on offending. While the harm caused by their behaviour needs to be confronted, having regard to what is in their best interests is more likely to ensure that the wider issues associated with their offending are successfully identified and addressed. What is in the child's best interests and what is in society's best interests are not mutually exclusive. It is important to highlight that during your call for evidence on this Bill, the small number of respondents who commented on this clause welcomed its inclusion.

The second provision, clause 85, is a technical adjustment to remove a specific legislative transitional arrangement, which is no longer applicable. The legislative change provided for in the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013 was necessary following a legal challenge to the release and recall arrangements associated with child detention orders. One of the new subsections contained transition arrangements applicable to any child detained under such an order at the time of commencement of the Act. In the event, these transitional arrangements were not required, as no child fell into this category. A commitment was therefore given to the Justice Committee and the Assembly to delete the subsection at the earliest opportunity. This clause fulfils that commitment. It is a purely technical adjustment and has no legislative policy, or practical, implications. I should add that no comments were received on this provision during the call for evidence.

I hope that this has given members sufficient detail on the clauses involved. We are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Ross): There were no real issues raised.

Mr McCartney: The intention is defined as the "best interests" principle. How do you make sure that intention is fulfilled?

Mr McGeown: As we get closer to recognising that this will be adopted as the way forward, we will work closely with the criminal justice family — probably through the Criminal Justice Board — to outline what is required. We will look at what they are already doing, see what else is needed and work closely to ensure that we are ready in time.

Mr McCartney: Who do you imagine will observe implementation on your behalf? Will it be done internally or by the Criminal Justice Inspection?

Mr McGeown: I suspect by both. We will certainly monitor it, but I suspect Criminal Justice Inspection will have a look too.

Mr McGlone: I will be very brief indeed. I raised this issue when it came up previously in the Committee. The Children's Law Centre raised concerns that the ducks were not properly in a row. Have you liaised with them since then to ensure an element of compatibility? I presume that is naturally how things would have gone.

Ms Kiera Lloyd (Department of Justice): The Bill manager at the time had a conversation with someone in the Children's Law Centre. One of the concerns they had was where the reference to best interests was put in the clause. The conversation was about whether that would make a practical difference or cause any issues. We reached the conclusion that it was a decision by the drafter as to where it fitted best in the clause as currently drafted.

Mr McGlone: This was a mutual conclusion.

Ms Lloyd: The conversation was between the Bill manager and the Children's Law Centre, and, as I understand it, they reached the conclusion. The Children's Law Centre did not really raise the issue in its formal response.

Mr McGlone: That's grand. Thanks very much.

Mr Douglas: Declan, I will ask you a question by way of a quote from C S Lewis:

I am thinking of Raymond's point earlier about children who end up with a record for breaking windows or whatever. People look back fifty years later and all they see on the record is what the child did. Do you have a view on that?

Mr McGeown: I do. Since taking up the job of chief executive in October, I have been looking at the child and the child's experience in the system. Certainly, it would be better for the child and society as a whole if the child does not come into the system at all. There has to be a lot of work done upstream with that child to make sure that where he or she is displaying behaviours or signs, we work as early as possible to try and keep them out of the justice system. Obviously, we will do our bit as part of the wider justice family, but there is also a call for others to be involved, because the social aspects go beyond the justice system. Certainly, since I have taken up the post, my role has involved working closely with a lot of the key players in various Departments to see how we can do that.

Mr Douglas: You mentioned others. Who are you talking about in particular?

Mr McGeown: We have already started having conversations. I also chair the Children and Young People's Strategic Partnership to reduce offending. Around the table we have people from health, education and voluntary and community groups. It is about talking to them and trying to get a sense of why that child comes into the system in the first place and what needs to be done to prevent that.

Mr Douglas: Thank you, Declan.

The Chairperson (Mr Ross): Thanks, folks. We managed to get through that without Division Bells.