Official Report: Minutes of Evidence
Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, meeting on Wednesday, 16 March 2016
Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Chris Lyttle (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Andy Allen MBE
Mr Paul Frew
Mr Gordon Lyons
Mr Alex Maskey
Witnesses:
Mrs Martina Hanna, The Executive Office
Mr David McGowan, The Executive Office
Sex Discrimination Order 1976 (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016
Mrs Martina Hanna (Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister): First of all, Deputy Chair, I thank the Committee for hearing this today. It is really appreciated by us because of the work we have been doing to tidy up the amendments and get them cleared before the end of the mandate. I will first explain in very simple terms what their impact will be, and then I will talk about the consultation and what happens next, if that is acceptable to you.
Mrs M Hanna: The recast directive is, as you rightly pointed out, an EU directive so that we comply with what they see as certain issues of importance in a particular way. Some time ago, they set out 10 areas of concern that they had, and we have addressed them all. The remaining one is the one on the table today. They have put forward an EU pilot investigation, as it is referred to, to ensure compliance with what they were asking us to do. In very simple terms, the amendments will create a single definition of direct discrimination with respect to employment and occupation. There are currently two definitions in the regulations. This does not change those definitions; it just brings them into a single definition. The second one will create a single definition for indirect discrimination, and, again, that brings it into one neat definition; it does not change what is there. Thirdly and very importantly, it will insert a new article to provide protection from indirect discrimination on the ground of gender reassignment. Currently, there is an insert that protects against direct discrimination, but this will match it with the other two definitions. It is really as simple as that.
As you rightly said, the consultation finished at the end of January, and there were four responses. In their responses, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI) and the Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities (NICEM) wanted us to be broader in the opportunity to change the regulations on a wider basis. However, for these regulations, we need to comply with what the EU is telling us to do. We can apply them now neatly, and that will tidy up the regulations for this part of this mandate. As we move into the new mandate, the regulations will sit with the new Department for Communities, and we will inform the new Committee at that stage of what has happened to date and what else we are doing on gender equality and the other areas of equality that we are responsible for.
Finally, the impact that the regulations will have is really just technical. It is set out quite technically in the letter, but those are the simple impacts of those technicalities.
The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Lyttle): Thank you for your briefing. Will you explain again the reason for the timing of today's proposal, give a further explanation of exactly how the regulations will be dealt with by the Department for Communities and tell us what involvement the new Committee for Communities will have?
Mrs M Hanna: You will be aware that we advised the Committee prior to Christmas that we were going out to public consultation on the matter. We set out for the Committee the technicalities at that stage. Since the end of the consultation period, which was in January, there was a period when we had to consult our Departmental Solicitor's Office (DSO) simply because of the additional things we were being asked to do. Because those additional things had not been publicly consulted on, it would be technically incorrect for us to move to do them now. We need to have further discussions with the new Department and its Committee, but, in the meantime, this enables what is very much a directive from the Commission to make these technical amendments and to tidy them up and get them done. It has more or less been a timing issue. It has not been an issue of delay; it has been a timing issue with the consultation and then with the analysis of the consultation responses.
The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Lyttle): Will you seek an opportunity to brief the new Committee for Communities on the wider gender equality provisions at the earliest possible opportunity?
Mrs M Hanna: Absolutely. As the policy lead for gender equality, I am moving to the new Department for Communities, so it is to the benefit of our policy area that we advise the Minister, the new permanent secretary and, indeed, the Committee of our intentions on gender equality. So, yes, we will do that.
Mr Maskey: Thanks, Chair, and thank you for that, Martina. Clearly, this is us meeting our compliance requirements.
Mrs M Hanna: It is meeting our compliance requirements, but it is also tidying up the regulations with respect to gender reassignment to make them match what is generally afforded to everyone else.
Mr Maskey: So it is generally seen as a positive —
Mrs M Hanna: It is very positive.
Mr Maskey: It meets our requirements, but it is positive and beneficial as well.
Mrs M Hanna: It is positive.
Mrs M Hanna: Sorry, can I just say that I can hear you only if I see your face? If your hand is up, I cannot hear you. Apologies; I should have said.
Mr Maskey: I am sorry, my apologies. On the correspondence from ECNI and NICEM, it is my understanding that some of the issues they raised are outside the scope of the regulations.
Mrs M Hanna: Yes, at this moment.
Mr Maskey: At this moment in time. Do they understand that?
Mrs M Hanna: They will understand it, but they have rightly seen this as an opportunity for us to maybe go broader than that, but, because of where we are and how we consulted on the regulations, it allows us to make necessary amendments and we can then take cognisance of what they said to us as we move forward. We will listen to that.
Members indicated assent.
Mrs M Hanna: Thank you very much.
Mrs M Hanna: Thank you very much. We are looking forward to it.