Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I formally welcome to the meeting, via StarLeaf, the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), Simon Byrne; the Deputy Chief Constable, Mark Hamilton, from the community safety department; and Assistant Chief Constable Mark McEwan. You are all very welcome. The session will be recorded and reported by Hansard and published on the Committee web page in due course. I invite the Chief Constable to provide a brief overview of the EU exit and justice-related issues and other key policing priorities and challenges that he wishes to draw to the Committee's attention. Thank you, Simon.

Chief Constable Simon Byrne (Police Service of Northern Ireland): Thank you, Chair. I will say a few words. As you say, I am joined by a small team from Brooklyn today. Just to ensure that the record is accurate, I must say that Mark Hamilton is the Deputy Chief Constable and Mark McEwan is from the community safety department. Among us, we will do our best to answer the breadth of issues that are important.

I want to take the opportunity to bring Committee members up to speed on some of the headlines that, I know, are of interest to you today and on the general policing context. There are a number of themes that it will be prudent to mention. First, it goes without saying that we have been policing in an unprecedented period since we were last before the Committee. Perhaps, as the day goes on, there will be more detail on how we police the regulations, our relationships with the public and, indeed, how we are keeping our own workforce going. One of the things that I have been particularly impressed with is the way in which we responded organisationally in the early days of the health crisis. We very quickly collapsed the organisation to put extra officers on the streets. At the same time, we have now issued nearly 3,000 laptops as part of what was planned modernisation. That was quite fortuitous, because it enabled us effectively to have just one in three people working in the back office to keep the place ticking over in that agile working space. That has been really effective.

Having been out a lot throughout the COVID period, and I know that this will be an issue for every one of you in your community, I want to say that it is worth praising the resilience and commitment of officers and staff during this crisis. Some people whom I will always single out are those officers who staff what we call the COVID crews, which are specialist teams in each policing district that are in the vanguard of our response to any incident in which we think a victim, a witness or, indeed, a suspect is suffering from the illness. They are putting themselves at additional risk, and I praise them for that.

We can go into detail later on the effect of COVID on policing, but, broadly speaking, in this period, we have dealt with over 12,000 COVID-related calls and 1,500 interventions. Those include things such as prohibition notices, which have been more to the fore recently, and fixed penalty notices. In the coming days, as the regulations and guidance change, our operational presence will be visible in communities right across the country and will have a particular emphasis on policing house parties. The change of emphasis in the licensing arena because of the new regulations means that, unlike the stance that we have taken recently, we will step back more into doing joint inspections with other designated agencies. Clearly, we want to be visible in crowded spaces to encourage social distancing.

Policing has not happened in a vacuum, as you know. It is amazing to think of all the issues that we as an organisation had to deal with in the summer months and how those have affected the community, but we have adapted. Those issues include, as you know, parades, the policing of bonfires, the Black Lives Matter protest, the policing of funerals and, in recent days, how we police sporting events, which we may come back to later.

The difference for us in meeting the policing challenge and its complexity is that, as well as the health crisis, we are now having to police general work that you would expect us to do. I will give you some sense of that. Our 999 calls are now pretty much at the rates that they were at pre-COVID, but we are now having to deal with a rise in the virus. Antisocial behaviour has gone up a lot, frankly. Crime levels are creeping back up to the levels that we saw prior to the virus hitting the country. We are therefore having to manage a lot of issues, and that is stretching resources.

It is easy to forget that we are under pressure, but we have also been bucking the trend. For example, in a general operational sense, drug seizures are up, as are weapons seizures, and we are doing more about investigating harassment, which is positive. Indeed, the number of people whom we are charging is up on the five-year average and is 10·5% higher than that which you would see in an equivalent organisation in England and Wales.

Recent news has focused on the complexity of continuing to deal with organised crime and terrorism. I cannot comment too much on the significant investigation into the New IRA, where 10 people have been charged. I will, however, highlight some of the increasing cooperative work that we have done with the National Crime Agency (NCA), as well as efforts here that, for example, have seen 70 searches and 179 charges relating to Operation Venetic, a UK-wide operation dealing with criminals who try to use encrypted phones. Indeed, I know that an issue of concern to many people — it was referenced in your introduction, Chair — is the continuing pressure that we are bringing to bear on paramilitary crime groups. We have conducted over 50 searches in the past few months.

Behind the scenes, though, and this touches on things that we covered last time, the mission moves on. I am working hard with the Department of Finance to see how we can look at different models to release us from the estate that we are currently in, which is tired and old, and to look at getting a new headquarters for the service over the next few years. It is really important, particularly in the context of Brexit and COVID, that we continue to invest in neighbourhood policing. We are nearly at the threshold of 400 officers that we promised a year ago. The style is starting to change. We are increasingly seeing people on foot and on bicycles and problem-solving in communities, and we may come back to that. More recently, because people say that they never see the police, we have increased the visibility of the fleet.

There are big issues that I will touch on today but that I will make just passing reference to now before taking detailed questions on them. We continue to deal with the issues of legacy, which are unresolved despite the hurt that families of people who have been victims of the Troubles feel. We await clarity on the new proposals from the Government. A key giveaway from my appearance before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, however, is that we sit on 95 tons of evidence, so that is a significant issue. That is just to give you some sense of the breadth and detail of bringing justice, if that is a resolution, or bringing information to victims.

Brexit is one of the headline issues that you will want to talk about today. It is fast-moving. We are cooperating well across other parts of the policing network in the UK, as well as with an Garda Síochána and the rest of Europe. I do not think that the prospect is as gloomy as some people might think. Mark will be able to update you today on some of the justice and safety issues and on how we operationalise any protocol that is finalised following 1 January 2021. One thing that I will highlight to you is that, although the Department of Justice is working closely with us, we have a funding pressure that is immediate. There is a £4·5 million gap to balance the books for the commitment to fund officers to police the Brexit challenge. We obviously do not quite know what it is going to look like. Almost 200 of those neighbourhood officers whom I talked about are supported through Brexit funding. Mark will probably touch later on how we see them playing a crucial role, particularly in the border areas, in bringing normality to communities if we go through change.

A lot has happened in the criminal justice space because of COVID, but we are working hard to retain confidence in the system, with the Lord Chief Justice, the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) and the courts to try to address backlogs, as well as to harness the effects of new technology to speed up justice. We also continue to plan for the long term. We are keen to see how the financing envelope that we, as an organisation, are given may change in the next few years to help that long-term planning. The Committee might wish to consider whether it wants to see replicated here any of the benefits announced in England and Wales, where £60 million was provided to policing and designated bodies to police the effects of COVID.

Finally on what has been happening, it is not just about reflecting on what is behind us and trying to project the prospective challenge but about results. In the broader sense, we have a new Community Safety Board, which is working increasingly effectively — Mark may be able to touch on that later — as we bring partners to the table to address some of the long-term and more-enduring issues. We also have the new crime prevention strategy, where we see prevention and problem-solving as being at the heart of our policing offer to the public of Northern Ireland.

There is more to do. We learned a lot of lessons over the summer from the policing of bonfires and how we brought influence to bear on people to share the responsibility for dealing with some of the complex issues. The Holylands reminds us that there are problems that go beyond policing. Since Tuesday, we have issued 40 fixed penalty notices and 12 prohibition notices in the Holylands area.

It continues to be a policing concern, but the resolution is not a policing one, so I call for your support in getting more people to the table to deal with long-term issues such as housing policy, licensing and the regulation of all this, rather than relying on the police to pick up the tab at the end.

There are other issues that you might find interesting. Our clearance rates for crime remain stable despite the pressures of COVID. Recruitment to the organisation continues, particularly on the police officer campaign that we talked about when we last saw you. Equally, we have been doing work behind the scenes to make sure that we are on the front foot for the next phase COVID, and I have just completed a joint review with the guards to look at lessons learned from all the effort we undertook from March to mid-summer. We want to ensure that we bring that learning to the fore in any challenges over the next few months.

I think that I have said enough in that introduction, Chair. I hope that it is useful. I will open up for questions from members to the three of us.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you, Chief Constable. That is very much appreciated. Let me join you in commending the work of your officers on the way in which they have been going about their duties over the past months, given the environment that we face. You highlighted the increased number of drugs seizures and weapons seizures, which is making our streets safer. In particular, I have heard a lot of praise from people around the operation to deal with the New IRA, notwithstanding the live investigations. I want to put on record my congratulations for what you have been able to do in that operation.

We will pick up some themes, rather than have members jump in and out. We will break it down. We will cover the EU exit issues first and then COVID issues. Some of this may interlink with questions that members have raised around police resources and staffing levels. We will then move into other issues that have been raised.

On the European Union exit issues, what planning has been taking place for the resources that would be needed in the scenario where there is not a negotiated arrangement? Have those bids been submitted, and are there indications that they will be met?

Chief Constable Byrne: There are two parts to that question, Chair, and I can bring Mark McEwan in as well, if you want. Planning, in the first instance, is for Mark. He is here as what we call, in police speak, our gold commander. In other words, he is the senior officer whom I appoint to look at all Brexit matters, both in developing our strategy and monitoring the operational response, which, as you say, we will come to sooner than we may think.

We have done a lot of scenario planning in the past, and we are refreshing that because the environment is fast-moving. We have been in conversation with the Department of Justice, in particular to close the gap in the bid for the 300-plus officers and staff that we need this year to police the agreed challenges of COVID, and, as we project forward into next year's financial plan, we are in dialogue with the Department of Justice to see, as we get clarity on the policing challenges, what additional resource we may need.

You will be aware that there is a people issue in that we have to make sure that we have enough officers and staff to protect the public in any new environment, but a lot of work is going on behind the scenes with UK colleagues, with the Garda Síochána and with other key people — for example, Border Force — to make sure that we are on the front foot. I know that, historically, there has been some concern, for example, about the justice and home affairs issues around legislation. In the absence of a deal, it is important to set a tone and say that, whilst some of the resolutions that we are seeing and hearing about may be suboptimal, there is increasing confidence that there will be workarounds if we have to go to that space and if we cannot develop an efficient security partnership by 1 January. That work is going on behind the scenes every day, but if there are specifics in terms of the effects, we can take those questions.

There is exchange of information through the Schengen information system, which is used over 500 million times a year across Europe to check whether people are wanted or missing, for example, and there are European arrest warrants and joint investigation teams. Things may be slower in 2021, and there may be delays, which are frustrating for everybody, but there is commitment to make it as effective as possible. You have to balance that against the volumes in which we use these systems and processes. We can provide more detail if you want, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Are there any specifics around officers being assigned to community policing or supporting Border Force that relate to the Brexit side of the planning?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes. I meet the head of Border Force every month to look at some of the immediate issues. Let me bring in Mark McEwan, who is doing a lot of work at the moment to see the effects of Brexit and how we police not just the ports but the border area.

Assistant Chief Constable Mark McEwan (Police Service of Northern Ireland): I will outline broadly the approach. It is almost in two phases for the EU exit. We have scenario planning and plans in place, working with partners, including Border Force, around what we may see in the early part. From the beginning of January, there will be new compliance measures in place, and we will see what that means, whether it causes some disruption, small levels of protest or those types of scenario. We have been planning with our partners to ensure that we have the right resources in the right place to deal with that and to assist the community and minimise disruption. That goes so far as to plan along with other police services in GB, in Scotland, Merseyside and places like that.

If we consider the somewhat longer-term impact that the EU exit may have, we know that there is already considerable uncertainty and concern in many parts of the community, particularly in border areas. There are concerns around the fact that some of those communities, particularly in the agri-food sector, may be disproportionately economically impacted. That brings with it challenges in areas where that way of life is already challenging. We are working with partners to look at what our community policing footprint might look like, what more we can do to support those communities and what that will mean in terms of supporting our partners here, whether it is Border Force, health and social care, or any of the people we work with ordinarily to provide a policing service.

As the chief has outlined, particularly when we think about justice and home affairs instruments that we have, we have been very vocal, as have other services, in emphasising the fact that we have communities that move across the border on a daily basis. That has been listened to and has been very much taken into account in dealing with those matters.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Doug, you asked some questions in this area.

Mr Beattie: Thank you, Chief Constable and Mark squared. I want to ask you a question that was not on the list, but it came up on the Executive Committee that I sat on yesterday. Some parties in the Executive think we are hurtling towards a non-negotiated outcome, and yet there is no Executive-led, cross-departmental working group to look at a non-negotiated outcome. Are you working with the likes of the Department for Infrastructure, the Department for Communities or DAERA, in regard to a non-negotiated outcome, and at what level? Are we all working in silos at the moment?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: We are working very closely with our partners, the Department of Justice, and that spans right across to DAERA and the Department for Infrastructure, to see what this would look like. As the chief mentioned at the start of this conversation, a non-negotiated outcome still means that we will be working very closely with the negotiations around, in particular, justice and home affairs issues. Setting aside the broader negotiations, there is a strong will, from both the UK and the EU, in terms of those instruments. From a justice and policing perspective, we are still playing a very strong role in those negotiations. We work with the UK-wide negotiating bodies, the International Crime Coordination Centre, and the National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC). We and Scotland have a seat at that table and are able to influence that and articulate our own concerns.

We are scenario planning around what the compliance infrastructure and processes may be. Our assessment is that, in even a non-negotiated outcome, we will not see a huge impact in the immediate aftermath in the early stages of January. We are working closely with the Border Agency, DAERA and others to ensure that we understand fully what those compliance measures may mean for the roads network. We are liaising with bodies such as the Road Haulage Association and others in our community who may be affected.

Mr Beattie: Mark, thanks for that. I get the sense that you, as a force, are reaching out to those organisations, but I do not get the sense that somebody is garnering them together with you, as key stakeholders, to create that overall joined-up piece.

I will give you an example. The Assembly was not sitting at the time, but before Brexit we had a step-up ops room in every Department to deal with a no-Brexit scenario. There is a paper floating about about stepping up those ops rooms again for a non-negotiated outcome. However, I have real concern that you, as a force, are reaching out, but I just do not see where we have you working together with all our Departments, including Justice, to make sure that we are prepared. I have a genuine concern about that. Do you have any concern about whether this is joined up at a higher level and not at just a police level?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: We can always do more to coordinate and provide a coherent strategy that serves our communities and the people who are going to be affected. We have good working relationships with Departments and an Garda Síochána. I take the member's point, and we can always do more on that, and it is something that we can help to raise.

Mr Beattie: I do not think that it is just you who can do more. That is not finger pointing at the police; I am talking about the wider piece.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I am going to call Emma, then Linda and then Sinéad Bradley. I remind members to put the questions succinctly.

Ms Rogan: In May 2018, there was a list of PSNI stations that were taken off the market, one of them was in Warrenpoint, in my constituency of South Down, which is a border community. Newry, Mourne and Down District Council had plans to buy that station for a community hall. It was taken off the market due to the uncertainty of Brexit. What plans are in place for that site, and the other sites?

Chief Constable Byrne: We are looking at a number of decisions that we made in 2018 to see whether there are opportunities to go back into some of those buildings in the short term — although we would not be doing it in isolation — and seeing whether we might be able to use places such as Warrenpoint in a different way. Going back to Doug's question about joining up, we are committed to looking at different arrangements for policing and community safety in the medium term. Rather than seeing it as just a police station, we see it as a community safety base, because there could be other partners that we would want to have dialogue and contact with.

We are encouraging that approach from district councils as well as others who would want to support us in managing any transition. It goes back to the previous point. Over the summer, we worked hard with partners to bring them to the table, as Doug was saying, in terms of the Community Safety Board and the response to bonfires. A year ago, I called for a community safety board for Northern Ireland that had more punch power. We could do with something like that to join the dots up.

Ms Dillon: Thank you for your responses so far. Have you had any discussions with the gardaí about continuing cross-border cooperation in the event of a no-agreement end to the transition period and the difficulties or challenges that you might have in that event?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: As I mentioned, we have very strong relationships with an Garda Síochána. There are, as the Committee will understand, issues around clarity and political sensitivities about direct negotiation when it comes to our ongoing transfer of information and other matters on the justice and home affairs side of things. As we come towards the EU exit date, those conversations, rather than negotiations, have stepped up. As I mentioned, all our negotiations around those instruments are done through UK-wide negotiating, but we are able to influence that. We also have our own stand-alone service here that looks at matters of information exchange, such as, currently, European arrest warrants, extradition matters and things like that. Although there may well be a GB, or an England and Wales, body for that, we will retain our own stand-alone system while being embedded in that. That is the way in which those negotiations have been going forward. That allows us to maintain those very strong relationships with an Garda Síochána. The DOJ has been liaising strongly with the Department of Justice and Equality (DOJE), which also allows us to progress that. That has given us reassurance that, although the arrangements that we talked about may be suboptimal, we will still have those strong relationships and will continue our cooperative working.

Ms Dillon: Are there any General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) issues, even in terms of the very basics of sharing information? Say that somebody is heading towards the border to try to evade being caught by the PSNI, and they go south, are there any GDPR issues around that?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: GDPR issues are being taken into account as we negotiate to replace the current mechanisms with something equally as strong. There are, of course, issues around data adequacy, and we are working through those. As I said, we have made a very strong case through the UK-wide negotiating structures that a lot of the information sharing — this is true of many other services as well — is about missing persons and lower-level issues, as they would be seen in the broader justice scheme. Those are the things that affect the daily lives of our communities who live in border areas. We have been very strong on that, and we expect to get a reasonable outcome and continue to work towards replacing what we have now.

Ms S Bradley: Emma asked about Warrenpoint police station. I was the Member who approached the PSNI and asked it to bring that site on to the disposal list, and Newry, Mourne and Down District Council talked to us at that time about the possibility of buying it. The conversation regarding the community centre has moved on. That said, I am a bit surprised at your comments about a community safe space. It may well still be the case that it would be helpful for the community to have a space, and the PSNI could then link in to the community via that space rather than necessarily owning it.

I am trying to understand the level of conversation that is being held regarding operational matters following Brexit. I will home in on one issue — European arrest warrants — because it is particularly complicated and controversial. We talk about a suboptimal outcome, and we hear that negotiations are going on to try to achieve a system that is as strong as the European arrest warrant, but I have yet to hear what that is. What conversation is being had, and at what level, to discuss the detail? One of the suboptimal options was the Norway/Iceland model, but when I look at it, I see that it references not just residency but nationality. To honour the Good Friday Agreement while trying to run an operational model that is based on nationality as well as residency is a minefield. Has the PSNI foreseen problems with that? If so, to whom is it bringing those problems? I heard a few references to the fact that you feel that you are being listened to and that you are being heard. Walk me through that. Tell me about the operational piece, the effect it will have, to whom you are talking, what you are telling them and why you feel reassured that they are listening.

Chief Constable Byrne: If you take a spring to summer view on this, you will see that, while a lot of attention in the public spaces has been around COVID, Brexit has still been fizzing along behind the scenes and has come more to the fore in recent weeks. Some months ago, at the start of summer, I had the opportunity to brief the Prime Minister personally about some of the issues and risks as we saw them in a strategic sense. That briefing had some bounds of sensitivity that I cannot breach, but we were convinced that our message was heard. We do not want to hide behind opaque bureaucracy — policing is good at jargon and acronyms — but there are working groups across the National Police Chiefs' Council that link into Europe and touch back into the Republic. As Mark said, we have operational dialogue with the people who are wrestling with some of the policing issues. They are broadly at superintendent level. They work to Mark and his equivalent in the Republic.

The international crime coordination centre, which Mark referenced, is important as a clearing house. We have people seconded there to deal with some of the granularity of what something means and what it looks like — for example, wrap-around alternatives to the arrest warrant rely on the 1957 convention or Interpol red notices. They then have some detail behind them as to whether you can arrest, because before you can respond to a red notice, you have to make sure that someone has been circulated as being wanted on warrant, here or in another country in a different jurisdiction. There are things that we are working around. That dialogue is quite detailed.

Clearly, your anxiety, and ours, is that we are still three months out from a finish line. All that we know is that that finish line is coming quickly and that there are lots of details to tidy up. We have fresh eyes to look at it, because Mark has been brought in to look at it with a new chief superintendent whom we have promoted to make sure that we have retested our plans and passed them to the Home Office and the Department of Justice, which, as Mark said, is also working in all sorts of ways with Governments, so that we feel confident that, if an operation imperative pops up, we can address it.

I take you back to the earlier comment, Sinéad, about Warrenpoint. We are agnostic about what the answer looks like. We just want our police stations to be more accessible. If the answer is a community hub in which we have a space, we can talk about that locally. Over the next two to three years, those are the sorts of conversations that we will probably want to have in a number of communities when we talk about how we change the look and feel of our police estate.

Ms S Bradley: Thank you, Chief Constable. Will Mark elaborate on that? Will the model that fits for other policing partners across the UK fit here? Is there recognition that there is a different set of circumstances in Northern Ireland, based on not just the land border but the nationality question that can be weaved through these agreements, if they are used?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: Yes, Sinéad. There is a recognition of that and of the sensitivities with regard to the Good Friday Agreement, and the issues of residency versus nationality. We have flagged those up, and they are being taken into account. Those issues are unique to here in that we have a land border, but they exist elsewhere across the UK and Ireland. While the issues are recognised as being particular to us, they are being wrestled with as part of those wider negotiations.

Ms S Bradley: Can you throw some light on what type of resolutions are being considered? It is a big challenge, and, while the land border may be a shared issue, the nationality issue and the rights under the Good Friday Agreement are, perhaps, not so well known or understood. What are the conversations and how is that looking?

Chief Constable Byrne: The key thing there, Sinéad, is trying to work it out and respecting the policing space with regard to operational advice and how we are pushing up into government, both here and in the Republic. Some of those answers about preserving the Good Friday Agreement are matters for Ministers as much as for senior police officers. That is the resolution for that problem. You quite rightly raise an issue as sensitive as that, but, in that sense, we are here to advise politicians rather than to set policy. There are still three months to resolve those sorts of issues. You can speak to Mark about this, but we are confident that, if there are concerns, there are mechanisms to raise them quickly. As the clock starts ticking, we will scenario-test over the next three months and increase the range of options, because, as you can imagine, this is a complex issue. If that throws up issues for us or our colleagues in the Garda Síochána, we will not be shy about bringing them forward.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Thank you, Chief Constable. The last member on this section is Rachel Woods, and then we will move on to COVID-19, when Gordon will ask the first question.

Miss Woods: Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your responses so far. My two questions are very brief. You mentioned budgetary pressures of £4·5 million. Is that in general, or is it an outstanding bid from the PSNI to DOJ that relates to Brexit?

Chief Constable Byrne: That is a specific bid in relation to Brexit. We will submit that pressure in October, but it relates solely to Brexit. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and the broader question is that we are still keen on dialogue with the Government on the commitment to grow us to 7,500 officers. Obviously, putting Brexit aside, we police the streets with discrete funding streams, which all add up to the current total of approximately 7,000 officers, so, in the short term, there is a pressure of £4·5 million. The previous settlement enables us to recruit 308 officer and staff posts, so if that funding dried up, that is not an amount of money that we can just absorb overnight by efficiency savings. It would probably affect recruitment into 2021, and it would obviously affect officer and staff numbers.

Miss Woods: In 2018, the previous Chief Constable outlined his security concerns about Brexit. In the current context, do you still share those concerns?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, absolutely. I am glad that you raised that matter because we have not touched on the fact that there are important issues that affect the whole of Ireland and, indeed, beyond. We are working closely with the National Crime Agency, which has conducted its own analysis — we are patched into that — which will basically say, as you will, perhaps, know from many years' experience, that criminals will exploit any gaps in order to raise money, which, at the end of the day, is the motivation. We are alert to the fact that there are differences in tariffs, differences in the common travel area and in the movement of people, which could all be exploited.

Look at recent events over the summer, for example, when we focused more effort on the haulage industry. We propose, in the next few months, to invest different operational teams to see whether we can skill up the policing of hauliers. Equally, we will increase the policing of the road network through, for example, the new automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) intercept team to ensure that we learn some of the lessons of the last 12 months. Where we can, we will use intelligence to intercept, interdict and put criminals on the back foot. Similarly, despite the earlier comments about the arrests relating to the New IRA, we are alive to the fact that there are still a small number of people who are influenced by a very poisonous and violent ideology, and that the Brexit narrative, depending on how it ends, could fuel that. We are keeping a close eye on that with our security partners.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): OK, thank you. We will move on to the COVID-19 issues, Chief Constable. A number of members had put questions forward: Rachel, Gordon, Doug and me. I will bring those members in first and then open it up to others. Gordon touched on two questions: advice to families on the organisation of funerals; and the issues around the enforcement of regulations and prohibition notices. Gordon, may I bring you in at this stage to put your questions?

Mr Dunne: Thank you, Chief Constable and senior officers for joining us today. We appreciate your time and your efforts. I emphasise the good work that has been done in our constituencies on neighbourhood policing.

First, I am fully aware that a lot of our neighbourhood police were taken away to carry out COVID duties. More recently, you have tended to move away from that. Will we see another reversal? Will we lose some of those neighbourhood resources to COVID again? I assume that those resources will need to be stepped up to encourage compliance and enforce the regulations?

Chief Constable Byrne: Thank you. That is a good question. First, there are a few bits there. Touching neighbourhood policing will be a last resort. We are as concerned as anyone else about the health prospects over the next few months. If you compare where we were in the spring with where we are now, you see that there are now more bodies with designated enforcement powers. Providing that those bodies step up and start to use their powers, that will be a method of taking some pressure off front-line policing. At the start of the session, I talked about when we collapsed the organisation. That was to deal with the scenario where we could foresee a third of the workforce being absent for various reasons and, sadly, high mortality in the community. Despite the current health risks, we do not see that at the moment. I have been very clear on my relationship with our other gold commander, Alan Todd, who has done some superb work over the last six months. Neighbourhood policing is the end piece of any collapse of resources to support COVID policing.

The other important issue is that neighbourhood policing did not entirely stop. I saw at first hand, despite the fact that offices were rostered on 12-hour shifts to police the public space, that they were continuing to visit victims of crime. Twice, I went to a food bank in Belfast, where the neighbourhood officers were very much hardwired to that response to people in need. We recognise, particularly from the review that we did with an Garda Síochána, how important it is to keep a policing footprint in the community. That will be important for us going forward. I reassure you that we take investment in neighbourhood policing very seriously. It is important that we minimise the distractions from it and keep our promise to communities.

Mr Dunne: OK. My other point relates to funerals. It is an issue that I raised with you in May. I am thinking of family funerals and the ability of the public, friends and relatives to attend. I still feel that there needs to be further clarification and would appreciate hearing your comments on that. Funerals are highly sensitive and still a highly respected tradition in our communities. People respect death, and funerals are very good for building communities and showing respect for relatives and neighbours, as we like to do. There is still a great fear, and people are unclear on whether they can attend a funeral.

I would like some comments, I suppose, on that. My understanding is that funerals can take place in churches, provided that there is social distancing. People are not sure whether they can stand outside the church, obviously respecting social distance. Some people have a fear of almost getting arrested for going to a funeral. Is walking in a cortège acceptable, provided that people social distance, and are the police willing to do traffic duty etc in a local community where it is required during a funeral?

Chief Constable Byrne: These are clearly very sensitive and emotive issues. I think that policy on traffic duty in a local community is, respecting the purpose here, more of a matter to be dealt with locally by the local district commander if there is a particular need rather than setting blanket policy here. Similarly, the application of regulations and their interpretation are, frankly, a matter for the Health Minister and the team that supports him. There is a raft of guidance online for people to try to help them to make choices. You referenced the regulations that currently apply to churches and the numbers of people who can gather outside. If it is any reassurance to communities, we have said from the outset that we adopt the four Es approach, which, I think, is pretty well understood by people now. With that, the last E, enforcement, is a last resort. If we see that there are issues, we will probably want a conversation with people and to encourage them to adapt their behaviour on social distancing, respecting how difficult an issue this is. It is an approach that we took largely over the summer months. Clarification is probably a matter for Ministers to resolve.

Mr Dunne: Police advice or instruction on it is useful, and people see you as being the authority, at the end of the day, on how people behave in the street or how they can assemble. I think that there is still fear and worry from the good general public out there — the law-abiding citizens of this country who generally do attend such funerals — that they are unable to do that. There is something that is very prohibitive and that sounds prohibitive about it. You have given us some assurance that, within reason, it can take place. I suppose, you are leaving it to commanders and so on locally to decide whether they want to get involved with assisting funerals. Is that fair?

Chief Constable Byrne: The local policing of any community, whether it is a town or a small village, is a matter for either the district commander or the teams that work there. Again, I do not want to set a policy. I think that one of our successes over the past six months has been the use of discretion and that band of three to four Es, but I do have to stress and point you to the comments made, I think, yesterday, by the Health Minister about the place of policing in the COVID regulations. We are here to enforce regulations that are set by the Health Minister. We also have a raft of other responsibilities on a day-to-day basis, as I said at the start. So, I do not really want to get drawn into the fine detail of how a particular funeral should be policed. I encourage people to follow the guidance.

Mr Dunne: I have another point, quickly, on COVID. I am a member of the Economy Committee, where, yesterday, there was considerable debate about the wearing of masks in supermarkets and shops. Do you feel that the police could ultimately have a role in monitoring and encouraging — I think that those are good words — the public to up the wearing of masks? The majority of people are wearing them, but a number of people are not. Can you do more to help to see that there is proper compliance in, say, the retail sector? I appreciate that you work with all the various organisations, including chambers of trade and local representatives, but I do feel that the point is coming where we will need some stronger action from the police, if required, on the wearing of masks.

Chief Constable Byrne: Again, masks are a key part of keeping us all safe in appropriate circumstances, particularly in enclosed spaces and on public transport. We are here to support other designated bodies and other people. For example, through the gold commander, as you say, there is active dialogue with Retail NI, and we have had conversations this week with Translink, which reports high levels of compliance among the public in the wearing of face masks on public transport.

I remind the Committee that we have to balance where we put precious resources, remembering as well that, in some instances, people will assert or have particular reasons, within the regulations and guidance, for not wearing a mask. We are here to support other people in that process rather than be on the front foot, frankly, because, as I said at the start, we are now dealing with 999 calls that are back to normal levels, we are dealing with more antisocial behaviour and crime is creeping up, so we have a broad range of responsibilities to protect the public and keep communities safe. Clearly, encouragement by shop owners and retailers is as much part of the answer as the police stepping into this space. Other people have shared responsibility. Again, I point to the Health Minister's comments yesterday.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I have a couple of quick factual questions that I would like to get some clarity on. Chief Constable, at the start, you mentioned 12,000 COVID calls. In a general sense, can you break down the nature of those calls? What are people asking and reporting?

Chief Constable Byrne: The calls are coming in in two ways: through 101 and through the new digital portal, which, frankly, did take pressure off the phone system. If it is slow time, we encourage people to use that. There is guidance on our website.

If you want, we can give some breakdown separately to the Committee on the type of calls, but they have shifted as the environment that we are working in has shifted and as the regulations have shifted. Currently, to project backwards, there are calls about licensing breaches in licensed premises. That will clearly change now, given the new emphasis this weekend. There are calls about house parties, and the general theme over the summer has been about gatherings, depending on the numbers that were in place at the time. Those things have fuelled the bulk of calls. Clearly, there can sometimes be specific calls that relate to crimes and incidents where people involved in them are suspected of having, or actually have, COVID, and that will trigger a different response, which is coordinated through a command centre. We have to take specially trained officers and specially equipped officers to deal with those calls. We can give a breakdown to you separately, if you want.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I am just interested in the general themes. If more detail can be given to us, yes, I would appreciate that.

I think that you mentioned in the past week — maybe it is specific to the Holylands — the 40 fixed notices. Do you know the number of penalty notices that have been issued since the commencement of the regulations in March?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, I do. There are different ones, but on the freedom of movement stuff, which is regulation 5, there are 517 notices in the latest figures that I have got. On all the other regulations, there are 145. There are 31 contraventions of regulation 7, and, in the latest figures, we have issued 34 prohibition notices, which are not quite the same as fixed penalty tickets. Taken together, the total number of interventions with the public is just shy of 1,500, when you allow other methods of dealing with things. We have something here called a community resolution notice. Enforcement has fluctuated at different times depending on the issues that we have been facing, and we keep a close eye on making sure that there is consistency in the application of those powers, because the issuing of a ticket will always go through the centralised command centre to make sure that the approach that we take is not treating people differently.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): That consistency is important.

I assume that the number of notices around movement has greatly diminished.

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): That would have been at the very early stages, so the focus is now on the other aspects.

I want to ask about that. Have any fixed notices on the wearing — or not wearing — of face masks been issued?

Chief Constable Byrne: I am not aware of any for face masks.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I want to turn to the parties that are taking place. How will the police enforce the new rules on restrictions on people's homes, which is largely where the current proposals are? That creates tensions for you. Blatant breaches will take place, and that has been evidenced by what we have witnessed in the Holylands. Let us take, for example, the number of exemptions that are in place for people's homes. You are allowed to bubble with a family. How would the police deal with a report that there were 12 people in someone's home, made up of a combination of adults and those under the age of 12, and they just say, "Well, this is my bubble". Then, a week later, a similar report comes through, but it is a different family and they say, "This is my bubble".

Will the police investigate whether people have been truthful as to what constitutes a bubble? Do people need to register who they are bubbled with? Is it one set of grandparents providing childcare or is it two? That is an exemption when it comes to childcare. I am trying to figure out, with those exemptions, how will that be enforced? Are you leaving it up to the honesty and common sense of the public when it comes to what goes on in people's homes?

Chief Constable Byrne: That is probably where I would take an answer if I could, Chair. The underpinning assumption in an awful lot of this — we do not know what further restrictions and regulations may come — is that we have to rely on people's interpretation of common sense, pragmatism and being reasonable because all have a part to play. Clearly, there is a tension for us in policing terms about, for example, a concern, as was expressed in previous questions, about whether it is safe to go to a funeral. We have to respect that, as far as we can; we are not here to interfere with daily life and how people go about their business.

Clearly, the regulations and guidance are increasingly complex. I have heard people seeking advice about who should be in their bubble and how you pick children up from school and all those sorts of complexities. To reassure the public, we have to strike a balance by coming down in an enforcement space against people who are completely irresponsible and who are engaging in, for example, antisocial behaviour and other disturbances, or are having house parties that get completely out of hand, which is the picture that we have seen, sadly, in the Holylands over the last couple of weeks, and judging that other people have acted reasonably in other spaces.

If we are called to a house where there may be a breach, the initial approach will be to explain the regulations and encourage people to desist. We do not want to be seen, if you like, as an army of occupation that will burst through every door in Northern Ireland if something like that is reported to us. Our contact centre assesses calls and either gives advice over the phone or decides whether there is a need for police deployment. We are conscious of how people are concerned in the short term. We have seen, if you go back over the summer, as regulations have changed, how people interpret them, improve their understanding and moderate their behaviour. However, our main concern is to support the endeavour of the Health Minister to keep us all safe. However, as I say, it is a fine line.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): OK, thank you. I agree with your approach. It is those who blatantly break the law who undermine everyone's good intentions.

I want to turn to the prohibition notices that have been issued in the Holylands. What exactly is being prohibited?

Chief Constable Byrne: I do not have details of specific cases. Having seen one that I issued to a licensed premises when I was out on patrol recently in Belfast, they prohibit certain behaviours. In the Holylands they will, largely, be about indoor gatherings. I do not have any details as to whether any have been issued to licensed premises in and around the Holylands. The notice specifies what the breach is.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): OK. Is the notice issued against the landlord? The penalty notices deal with the issue, but who is the prohibition notice issued against?

Chief Constable Byrne: It depends on who is breaching the regulations, frankly. It will be the occupant if it is a home.

Miss Woods: I want to follow up on prohibition notices. Obviously, they will change now, with different regulations. Would there ever be a scenario whereby social distancing would appear on a prohibition notice, given that there are no enforcement powers on social distancing?

Chief Constable Byrne: The key thing is that social distance is guidance, and we are appealing to common sense. Social distance applies in different contexts — we all try and show social distance at work. There is clear guidance on the use of face masks, etc, on public transport and in enclosed spaces. That, again, is complex and nuanced, but the guidance is not an issue; it is not something that we would issue a notice for. It is only for breach of regulation.

Miss Woods: OK. To tease that out, if a prohibition notice was served, and one of the reasons for it was not adhering to social distancing, is it something the police can enforce?

Chief Constable Byrne: If it is a gathering in the home, in numbers, that is one thing, if you mean that bit of social distancing. However, keeping two metres apart in another scenario may be something where we just give advice in the three E space.

Miss Woods: We received information in our pack on breaches of the regulation by incident type, from March to June. Thirty-seven per cent of the incidents for breach of the regulations were actually breaches of guidance, not regulations. This is a comment rather than a question: maybe the guidance is not overly clear for a lot of people; it is unclear what is regulation and what is guidance. How much police time does that equate to?

Chief Constable Byrne: I could not give an answer on police time, as different incidents take different lengths of time. Over the summer, we were called to beaches in Crawfordsburn and Helen's Bay that hit the news. Clearly, responding to that took hours. Other incidents we might deal with more quickly. Despite our best efforts, I would not disagree that, for individuals listening to this broadcast, our officers and, indeed, the community at large, sometimes the guidance is increasingly complex and difficult. That is why reference to online tools to help people, including our officers, in making decisions is important. Many situations are unique, and we need to get the balance right. Any simplification of regulations and guidance would help everyone.

Miss Woods: Thank you. I certainly agree with that. Finally, does there exist any internal guidance for police on health protection regulations and how they are enforced?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, there is. From the outset we have tried to follow advice from the National Police Chiefs Council and from the Executive about how we operate across the estate, in social distancing in our buildings. You might also have seen that it is routine for officers on patrol in police vehicles to wear face masks throughout their shift to keep themselves and the public safe. We keep a close eye on that. We have regular operational meetings, led by our Gold Commander Alan Todd, who receives the latest medical advice and opinion. We now have strong cleaning regimes, significant stocks of personal protective equipment, and a whole range of different scenarios, so that we are trying, as hard as we can, to keep ourselves safe so that we can continue to police the streets, as well as not infect anyone else.

Mr Beattie: Thank you, Chief Constable. This is topical, you knew that I was going to ask it, so I am going to. Can you give us an update on the investigation of the Bobby Storey funeral? I look at this from a reputational damage point of view. Can you include how many people have been given letters to appear for interview by the police?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, I can give you an update. I do not assume that everyone knows the whole story. Since there was a lot of public concern about that funeral, we appointed an independent deputy chief constable from Cumbria, Mark Webster, to oversee our investigation into the funeral. He is supported by a trained and accredited detective superintendent and a team of officers who are reviewing different types of footage to see whether there are potential breaches of the regulations at a number of places.

We are working our way through that process, and 24 people have now received letters inviting them to make arrangements for an interview with us within the next 14 days — the clock is ticking, so it is probably about seven days now. We are in dialogue with those 24. As the investigation progresses, we can update you further. I am conscious that I do not want to say too much because, as you will appreciate, it is a live investigation.

Mr Beattie: Absolutely, thank you for that. It is a live investigation. People are still really interested in this because of the damage that it created in our health message during COVID. Have you any idea, Chief Constable, when we are likely to see the end of this investigation, or is it just one of those things that we will just have to wait until it is done?

Chief Constable Byrne: No, because of the nature of the offence, we are bound by a six-month window to get the evidence to the Public Prosecution Service. Mark Webster is conscious of the deadline and the need to get the best evidence but also that he must submit it to the Public Prosecution Service in a timely manner. At the moment, the best estimate is within the next couple of weeks.

Mr Beattie: OK. I have another question, which was not on the list that I was going to ask, but it has only just come up. It is a pointed question: who from the police attends the Executive's COVID enforcement working group?

Chief Constable Byrne: It is normally Assistant Chief Constable Alan Todd.

Mr Beattie: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): I want to tidy up the funeral question. At this stage of the investigation, do you think it likely that a report will be sent to the Public Prosecution Service?

Chief Constable Byrne: The way that the law works here is that there has to be, so there will be.

Mr Frew: I will keep to the theme of the Bobby Storey funeral: is Mark Webster investigating whether any role was played by PSNI officers in liaising with Sinn Féin on organising events around the Bobby Storey funeral — for instance, the sham oration in the graveyard?

Chief Constable Byrne: It is a live investigation. From the discussions that I have had, the best thing that I can say to try to satisfy you is that he has had to satisfy himself of whatever dialogue there was between anyone in the PSNI and anyone purporting to arrange the funeral. That is the most that I can say at the moment.

Mr Frew: OK. I have a question on the enforcement of wearing face coverings, a phrase that sounds horrendous to me. There is absolutely no way that I would support enforcing that on individuals, given that the police officers involved will not know the private situation or health conditions of any person. We know that, in the past, the police got the geography wrong with regard to where retail shops are and are not in our hamlets and towns, and I think that the police would get that wrong also, especially when the guidance does not state that you have to wear a face mask on all occasions, at all times and in all places. Indeed, it is required only if you cannot adhere to social distancing and other requirements. Do you expect your officers to wear masks at all times when on operational duties?

Chief Constable Byrne: First, with regard to the general public, we do not want to be in the space of forcing someone to put a mask on. It would probably be disingenuous to create the impression that we would use force to make someone do that. We want to rely on the three Es of the four E approach. If there were circumstances where there was a justified need for us to intervene — for example, on a train, to support a guard who is asking someone to wear a mask — we would, absolutely. However, we also recognise, quite rightly, that there are individual circumstances, and we will take those into account, which is why there is not an assumption that we leap straight to enforcement.

For our officers and staff, in the public space, it will depend on the circumstances.

As I said, we ask officers and staff to wear face masks in vehicles, because, as you would imagine, they are in that confined space for shifts of 10 hours or so. I was out with some colleagues last night and did that myself. Equally, in certain scenarios, you will see officers wearing a lot of personal protective equipment, as I said earlier, when we deal with specific COVID-related issues. Frankly, as our officers and staff are as anxious about catching the virus as anyone else, in certain instances of close contact, they will be encouraged to wear a face mask as they deem appropriate. If you saw, for example, pictures of a knife crime in Belfast in the media the other day, you will have seen officers wearing masks. We are not routinely saying that in public space, if you can socially distance, you have to wear a mask, though.

Mr Frew: Thank you very much for that clarification. I am on record saying that I have sympathy for the PSNI with regard to trying to police what I believe to be very draconian legislation. In fact, we are legislating in people's living rooms — not that they would commit crime there but with regard to the number of people in them. It is very worrying that we have had to go down the road of that whole legislative piece. I have sympathy with the police, who are trying to police compliance with that draconian legislation.

However, do you admit, recognise and acknowledge that, although there is that sympathy, there have been scenarios where the policing of situations has gravely undermined the message — just as much as any politician has for that matter — and has done grievous damage to the common-sense requirement, which is probably the one element that is saving most lives as we go through the pandemic? The police's inaction in certain circumstances, such as Bobby Storey's funeral — be it slightly different because of the hurt of its being somebody's funeral — and other mass gatherings — for instance, in Belfast and the partying around the Holylands, which should not take place in any given year whether we are in a pandemic or not — can really undermine the common-sense message that we need to put out for people to protect themselves.

Chief Constable Byrne: You raise an interesting point. Quite fundamentally, I think that you have picked up that the regulations are complex. They are passed by the Government. Our institutional position is to support the rule of law. That is the first bit that we have to abide by under the Police Act. If there are specific examples of inaction that you want us to look at, we can try to provide more detail. Sometimes, we are asking officers to make very nuanced decisions fast. In a complex organisation of nearly 10,000 people, dealing with 500 emergency calls a day, sometimes, we will get things wrong. Personally, I have been out on patrol an awful lot during the COVID period. I have seen the tolerance, patience and encouragement that officers and staff have shown to try to support people going about their daily lives whilst supporting the spirit of the regulations, which, after all, are here to keep us safe and healthy.

As I touched on in my introduction with regard to the broader debate about how we police bonfires, parades and protests, one of my reflections on policing here in the past 18 months is that, often, we are heroes and villains. Action will go down well with one community and might be seen as less than satisfactory by another. That is the difficulty that we have sometimes in balancing the proportionality and justification of what we are doing. We will continue to look at that.

Mr Frew: Thank you very much for your answers.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Members, we will move on.

Ms Dillon: Sorry, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Sorry, Linda.

Ms Dillon: I actually have a number of questions that I want to put to the Chief Constable. Thank you, Simon, for your answers. Some interesting points have been raised. Assistant Chief Constable Todd was before the Committee several times in relation to the COVID regulations. I am on record saying that I believe that the PSNI, in very difficult circumstances, has got the balance right as far as possible. As you have outlined, certain mistakes were made. Given the circumstances that you were in, mistakes will always be made. We are all human. We have to accept that mistakes will be made. If we can accept that they were not blatant and there was no malicious intent, it is fair enough to say that mistakes will be made.

I need to declare an interest before I go any further: I am one of the people who received a letter about Bobby's funeral. That was the funeral of a very close friend of my family for over 20 years.

For the most part, in fairness to you, you have got the balance right, but political and media pressure is being brought to bear, and that balance is starting to fall away slightly. Everything that we have heard in the room today has been about Bobby's funeral. We know that there were many other funerals — the blatant hypocrisy in the room would sicken you — at which the rules were also broken. That is OK. The right approach was taken, because the PSNI took a balanced approach. We have heard about the Holylands, but we have not heard about other incidents at other events. There is a question here, Chair. Apologies for taking a bit of time to get to it. Am I right in saying that most of the notices given out in the Holylands were not issued to students?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, broadly. I do not have the exact figures in front of me, but we can get them to you. The pattern has been that sometimes notices have been given out to students. The bulk, however, have been given out to people who are not studying at university but have been seeing people who are.

Ms Dillon: It is important to get that point out. Students are being absolutely hung out to dry, as though they are a law unto themselves and that there are not very good students out there doing the right thing all day, every day. We need to make that point. Again, the fact that students are being hung out to dry is down not to the PSNI but to political and media-led motivations. To be fair to you, that is not your responsibility.

Are any other investigations ongoing, and has anyone apart from those who attended Bobby Storey's funeral received a letter about an investigation?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes. I have seen figures for around 20 other funerals during what you could describe as the COVID period. Of those investigations, 13 have now been closed, because the fleeting nature of the breach meant that it would not be proportionate to take action. From memory, another six remain under investigation, plus the one that you referenced.

Ms Dillon: You mentioned the importance of neighbourhood policing. Your review with the gardaí is really good and positive. Gordon asked whether some PSNI officers would be moved out of neighbourhood teams and back on to COVID duties. We need to reinforce the importance of neighbourhood teams. I know that you, Simon, are passionate about the neighbourhood policing element, so you know that neighbourhood teams play a really important role. In my area, there was a wee period when we did not have a sergeant, and that created some difficulties. The community builds up relationships with the neighbourhood teams. Where there are breaches of COVID rules, the community will speak to the neighbourhood team. People may not necessarily want to go through 101, or even use the app or the online way of doing it. It is therefore important to maintain that neighbourhood policing presence. I hope that that will be focused on.

I support what Paul Frew said about the enforcement of wearing masks, particularly in retail settings. I do not know how the PSNI would get involved in that. It would be impossible. I am not even sure that somebody who works in such premises should get involved. There are exemptions when it comes to who has to wear a mask. Someone could have a learning difficulty that is not necessarily a visible disability. We heard people who are deaf on the radio this week talking about the challenges and difficulties around the wearing of masks. There are many other kinds of challenges for people, such as breathing difficulties. There are also those who take the stance that they will not accept the wearing of a mask. The PSNI and all of us therefore have to get the balance right. We have to take responsibility for getting it right in all circumstances and situations, and not to have balance when it suits and to have no balance when it does not. In fairness, you have done quite a bit of good work in that regard. I support Paul's comments around the wearing of masks. It would be impossible for you to enforce, and it would not be fair to put you in that position either.

Chief Constable Byrne: I will give two quick responses, if I may, Chair. First, in response to both you and, indeed, the Policing Board, which is where I am going shortly for another discussion, we have been very clear on our commitment that we would collapse neighbourhood policing, if you can see it in those terms, as an action of last resort. We do not know whether the spread of the virus will progress over the winter months. Linda, I recognise how important neighbourhood policing is. It is, effectively, one of the talismans of my leadership of the organisation. We want to continue to invest in it, build relationships with communities across the country and improve officers' skills to do that well. I recognise how hugely important that is.

I stress that the preferred approach to most of what we deal with in the COVID space is, almost like the phrase, "Just talk". Where we have to come into contact with people breaching the regulations, not the guidance, we would prefer a resolution that does not result in enforcement. Clearly, the issue that you raised of people having a whole variety of different medical needs that may mitigate the need to wear a mask is something that we are alive to in any encounter.

Ms Dillon: Thank you.

Ms Rogan: May I ask a question on a different theme? An incident happened locally, and I wanted to get your sense of it, Chief Constable. It could be an operational matter; I am not sure. A member of the public approached some of your officers with details of drugs being sold on a social media platform, but the local police told the person that they could do nothing with the information. To me, that undermines community policing, which is what we have spent the last 35 minutes talking about. The person was told, "No, we can't use that". They had gone to the police because they were concerned about the fact that an array of different drugs was being sold out of the boot of someone's car. The person had their name, details about their car and where they were going to be, but they were told, "Sorry, we can't use that". They approached us because they were not happy about it and rightly so.

Chief Constable Byrne: Thank you for raising that. The response, at first, surprises me, and it disappoints me, frankly, that we were not keen to find out who is peddling drugs in our community. I talked earlier about drug seizures being up. We recognise that we have to take that issue seriously. If you contact my office after the meeting, we can get those details looked at with fresh eyes. That is probably best.

Ms Rogan: Thank you.

Ms Dolan: Chair, I have one final question. Thank you for joining us today. We know that domestic violence rates increased during the lockdown period. How did that play out over the summer months when restrictions were eased a little?

Chief Constable Byrne: There are a few issues on domestic-motivated incidents. They dropped, then peaked and are now broadly stable again. It has been a bit like a wave on a choppy sea. It is a really important issue. Again, it is a bit like neighbourhood policing, which Linda mentioned. It is one of the top priorities that I have set for our organisation. Mark, who is beside me, is leading some of our response to domestic abuse. I have said more than once that this is the one crime where we know who has done it. We need to do all that we can to protect victims and bring people to justice. A small example of that is that we have improved outcome rates and charges against people who injure their partners in a domestic setting. We are looking at how we respond to an initial call, how we make a swift arrest and how we get best evidence to the PPS to protect people. We are keeping a close eye on it. Clearly, among the undercurrents of even the most recent restrictions are the mental health issues and the strain that people feel, which can lead to disputes in families, so we will monitor the issues closely. Broadly, we have been seeing some stabilisation in the number of incidents in recent weeks.

Ms Dolan: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Members, I need to move on because the Chief Constable is leaving us at 12.00 noon. That is when this element of the meeting will finish. We have a number of questions still to get through. If we have time, I will open the session up to areas that were not previously notified.

PSNI resources and staffing is one area that members raised, and I will quickly recap on that and then invite those members in. Chief Constable, there was a general question to do with plans being in place, if there are any, around rationalising police stations and upgrading retained buildings to modern standards. You have touched on recruitment issues, and some members raised issues about the recruitment of officers. I am not sure whether we need to cover that ground again, but can you comment on the plans for police stations? The other question is from Rachel about the changes to the police pension scheme.

Chief Constable Byrne: I may bring in my deputy Mark, who is on the call, to deal with the police pension scheme. I am not sure that he is an independent financial adviser, but I know that he has been researching that area carefully.

I will deal with the other issues first. I want to reassure people that, after the spring campaign to attract people into the organisation, the assessment centre process has continued, so we are progressing plans, which we are still confident that we will achieve, to grow the headcount of the organisation to 7,100 officers by the end of the financial year, and that would be the highest that it has been for some time. That equates to 7,000 real people, because some of the officers who work for us work part time. We are also keen to continue to work with the Government to increase to the number 7,500, as was outlined in the commitment earlier in the year.

There are a couple of points about the estate. Local police stations are always a hugely important and emotive issue to do with signs of presence in the public space. I will come to that in a minute. Broadly, at the moment — I am working closely with the chair of the Policing Board and the head of the Department of Finance on this matter — we are assessing headquarters sites across the greater Belfast area, including, for example, the one that I sit in at the moment, and determining whether, if we come out of those sites and coalesce in a different place, still within the greater Belfast area, we could rid ourselves of some of the legacy of the past. Many of our buildings are old, decrepit and inefficient, and we want to look to see how we can bring together the normal head office functions, the police college, the contact centre and a new centre to tackle organised crime that will be similar to the model in Scotland. Those efforts are working quite quickly, and we are trying to see how we can take advantage of the ability to borrow money in the current economic environment and, frankly, come up with a plan that will create jobs, if we are able to begin to build a new headquarters estate in a radically different way.

Secondly, you can see this as a 10-year plan. We all recognise that, despite the efforts to improve our estate in the past, some of our buildings are more modern than others. I am the proud landlord of 185 Portakabins, which is not an acceptable working environment in the modern age for officers and staff. We want to work closely with district councils in the next 10 years to see how we can make our buildings look less militarised, look more welcoming and be assets that the community could use. That will take longer to come to fruition because of some of the changes that we would have to make to the environment in which we work, and it may mean, on occasion, closing certain sites to build new ones, still within a particular town, that are more modern and fit for purpose, if we can get the financial support to do it. I imagine that many people on the Committee, or even those watching, will have examples of buildings that do not reflect our modern values and how we want to interact with the modern public service.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Before you introduce Mark on the pension aspect, Chief Constable, Gordon wants to ask about police stations.

Mr Dunne: Yes, you have covered it fairly well. It is important that we are aware that you have bids for future refurbishment and to establish the major projects that you just mentioned. We are not fully aware of all that, but it is important that those bids are put forward, and we encourage you to invest. We are fully aware of the Portakabin issue. To be fair, you have talked about it since you came into the job and have raised that with us on a number of occasions. It is important that we continue to push that as a priority.

Locally, in north Down, we have seen the rationalisation of a number of stations.

We still have the Holywood station, which is virtually unmanned. I suppose that a question mark hangs over its future. The police use it for operational vehicles but not for "public use". The Bangor station has had work done but probably needs further work. We urge you to continue with your plans, and we will do what we can to push for further funding for capital schemes and making sure that your premises are fit for purpose.

Chief Constable Byrne: That support is really encouraging because, frankly, we need the capital. We spend a small fortune each year on just building maintenance and keeping the estate going. If we could modernise, we could divert a lot of that into our other services or improvements and modernisation.

I know that you want to speak to Mark about the police pension care scheme.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): 'New Decade, New Approach' made that commitment of 7,500 officers. Has the Department of Justice formally put forward a bid to the Department of Finance for the necessary funding to give you the 400 additional officers needed to fulfil that commitment?

Chief Constable Byrne: I do not think so, yet. We submitted — in management jargon — an outline business case to the Department of Justice that outlined our reasons for wanting to grow to 7,500 officers. I am not personally aware from any conversation that I have had with officials that it has moved any further.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Is it an issue that you have escalated with the Minister to get ministerial support for that?

Chief Constable Byrne: It is an issue that I have escalated with the Policing Board, because it has an opportunity to advocate for us. I am seeing the board in about an hour's time. It is something that they are also supportive of in recognising their role to support us in trying to grow the headcount of the organisation to meet the agreement.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Deputy Chief Constable, will you come in on the pension issue?

Deputy Chief Constable Mark Hamilton (Police Service of Northern Ireland): Further to the chief's comment on the 7,500, I will say that our three-year comprehensive spending review (CSR) highlighted to the Department of Justice and, therefore, DOF the costs that we would see in growing the organisation each year, over the next number of years, to 7,500. We put that in as an original outline bid in our submissions, in the last month or so, through the CSR.

I will move on to the pension scheme. In 2018, the Court of Appeal ruled that the transitional protection offered under the old pension scheme to the new scheme was unlawful. The Government have now offered a remedy, which the Executive are consulting on. The closure of that consultation comes at the end of November.

We are working closely with the Department to find a way forward. The proposal offers an immediate choice or a deferred choice underpin to members affected. Affected members are those who joined the Police Service before 31 March 2012. It does not affect anybody after 1 April 2015. We reckon that that will affect between 5,000 and 7,000 serving or former officers. We are working closely to decide the best choice. Effectively, they will offer the immediate choice where you take the benefits of the old scheme — the scheme prior to 2015 — from 2015 to the end of the remedy period, which is in March 2022, or the deferred choice, whereby you would defer that choice until the day you retire.

What we have to offer those, maybe, 7,000 people is whether they want to avail themselves of an extra seven years on the old pension scheme or the new pension scheme. That is going to raise a lot of issues because every affected person needs to have a financial statement given to them to help them to understand which scheme would be better for them. They need advice on that. The options may have different tax implications. There is also a huge administrative burden for the Chief Constable and those who administer the scheme.

Our initial sense is that we will probably prefer the deferred choice, whereby we work out for each officer the implications for them when they retire, as opposed to trying to do thousands in one go in the immediate period after April 2022. There will be a number of other issues to sort out: for example, those who have died during the period and people who have divorced. Another issue is that the pre-2015 scheme recognises and provides for spouses but does not provide for partners, whereas the post-2015 scheme does provide for partners, so there will be different choices for different people. All in all, after our conversations this week, we feel that we will probably be dealing with the issue for up to 30 years: managing the pension calculation and potential retirement dates over the next 30 years for each person who joined prior to 2012; and managing the pension calculation for those who have already retired.

One of the major concerns for us is the capacity of the PSNI to manage all this. The date is coming along very quickly, and, obviously, this will all be subject to enabling legislation, which will come from Westminster and be supported in Belfast. It will be quite an administrative burden on us to provide the figures to everybody so that they can make their choice at the appropriate time. There is also a view that there will need to be independent financial advice available to people, and maybe independent tax advice, so that they make the right choice. That is also to avoid litigation further down the line should people feel that they were advised to take the wrong mechanism.

The consultation will end, and we will see what the final remedy is. For the next 18 months, there will be a lot of effort to try to get us ready for the April 2022 deadline. It will take quite considerable effort to manage every member. The last thing to note is that the Home Office, in the last number of weeks, has given permission for police services in England and Wales to start working through the choice remedy for people who are about to retire immediately, because the court judgment was there should be no immediate detriment. We are waiting to see whether there will be any instructions to the Department of Finance here. After that, we can start work immediately to give to those who are retiring now the advice that they need to make the right decision.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): OK. Thank you, Mark. I suspect that this is an issue that the Committee will need to get its head around as well. Rachel had asked the question, so I am happy to bring her in next. I will stay with Rachel and invite her to ask her remaining questions, which are on the Domestic Abuse Bill, Operation Nexus and body-worn video cameras. I am aware that we have only 14 minutes left for the session. After Rachel's questions, Doug has a question on spit hoods. I suspect that that will take us to 12 o'clock.

Miss Woods: I will be quick. Thank you. That was very comprehensive.

Has the PSNI has had any input into the current proposals that are out for consultation? Did you respond to the consultation?

Deputy Chief Constable Hamilton: We are responding at two levels: individually, through our various staff associations; and, as an organisation, through the Department of Justice. We will make known our view on which way we should go forward: the immediate choice, or the deferred choice underpinned. The feeling is that, for administrative reasons, we will recommend the deferred choice underpinned.

Miss Woods: I will move on to the Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill. As you are aware, we are still looking at it in Committee. Have the police had any input into the guidance being drafted by the Department?

Deputy Chief Constable Hamilton: Yes. [Laughter.]

Miss Woods: Great. OK. That was a good answer.

Chief Constable Byrne: A great answer.

Miss Woods: What type of training on domestic abuse is currently given to new and existing PSNI officers? How long is it for, who runs it, and are there refresher courses?

Chief Constable Byrne: I will let Mark comment on the breadth of training. There maybe two issues there, if I understood the question correctly. When the Bill is passed, we will begin training from December for about 3,000 front-line officers who carry out different roles. That will be a mixture of classroom training, subject to the COVID restrictions, and online learning, which is where we have had to put a lot of our effort in recent months.

In training, different specifics apply to different roles. For example, officers in public protection teams have to achieve differing levels of accreditation. The level of accreditation required depends on whether they are a front-line detective or, for example, a detective chief inspector running a whole investigative syndicate.

That will play out in different ways. There is different training for custody officers, people who work in the custody environment on legislation and front-line staff. Is there anything else that you would like to pick up on, Mark?

Assistant Chief Constable McEwan: It is important to note that the subject matter that we are looking at for the online training that starts in December is getting officers familiar with what coercive and controlling behaviour looks like so that they recognise it when dealing with incidents. We have been developing that programme with Women's Aid, and, as the Chief Constable said, it will be rolled out from December so that we have officers up to a certain level of competence in both their day-to-day work and in preparation for the Bill becoming law. In preparation for the Bill becoming law, we will go to classroom-based training, with all of the conditions that that will require if we are still in this situation. It is so important to have that face-to-face training environment and get those inputs from the partners that we work with.

Miss Woods: Thank you. Is Operation Nexus operating in Northern Ireland? If so, how is the PSNI operating it?

Chief Constable Byrne: Yes, it is in operation in Northern Ireland. It is part of a UK-wide scheme to make sure that we pick up people who are wanted in other jurisdictions and could continue to cause harm in communities here if we did not address them. Effectively, it is a check that is carried out in the custody centre when someone is arrested: we run through some of the systems that we were talking about earlier in relation to European foreign nationals who may be wanted in other jurisdictions. It is used as a tool to keep communities safe.

Miss Woods: OK, I will come back to you on that when we have more time.

It is my understanding that body-worn video is turned off after an incident has finished. Is there any guidance on when an incident is finished?

Chief Constable Byrne: I will have to check the finer detail of the policy. There is a lot of guidance on the use of body-worn video. What we say to officers is that there are certain incidents where we prescribe them as a must. When spit hoods are in use for, going back to your previous question, domestic abuse incidents, for example, it is really good for gathering first evidence that can support prosecution. Other examples are stop and search, motoring encounters and so on. We rely on officers to follow that guidance and then have the confidence to use it in other interactions. I was out only last night with some front-line officers. They see it as a really good tool for gathering evidence and, frankly, for protecting themselves in situations where they have been accused of using too much force or being rude to people. I am keen to continue investing in it as part of what we calling "digital policing". We are looking to renew body-worn equipment across the organisation to take advantage of how we could be using Wi-Fi to send footage back to police control centres. The guidance on when an incident has finished will, frankly, depend on what the issue is. For example, in the case of an arrest, which will, presumably, cover the encounter and the time in a police car, whether officers choose to continue filming to protect themselves and the person whom they have arrested will depend on the circumstances and the equipment available in the car. Some of our cell vans are equipped with cameras. It is not always an exact science, but we hold incident debriefs quickly to ensure that we get evidence into the criminal justice system.

Mr Beattie: Thank you, Chief Constable. I was going to ask you a question about spit hoods, but we are short on time, so I will write to you on that. I hope that the Chair will not mind me asking you a slightly different question. I have had an influx of former and current police officers contacting me to say that they are concerned about the police's injured-on-duty assessment procedures. Where are we on that? Many are complaining that independent medical referees (IMRs) are not operating due to COVID, yet the assessments are happening in the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

They are also concerned that privately employed professionals who deal with mental health care are not being listened to by the selected medical practitioners.

Chief Constable Byrne: Funnily enough, I know that this is a really live and important issue for all sorts of reasons, Doug. Colleagues are suffering with a range of issues because of their commitment to service in the past. As you know, it tends to be for issues like PTSD or mobility issues caused by musculoskeletal problems. While we recognise that the application of the scheme is important, we also recognise that it has slowed down because of COVID. That is actually a matter for the Policing Board. We just give advice, so, on those bits of detail, you will probably have to get a response from the chair or the chief executive of the Policing Board, frankly.

Mr Beattie: OK. I guess that is a fair response. I was just trying to get your view on it, Chief Constable. You are absolutely right: this is incredibly important, and COVID has not made it easier. I guess I am asking for your view on whether these people are being best served by the current procedure or not. I know that it is just a view; that is all I am asking for.

Chief Constable Byrne: There are a couple of things. Clearly, there was a report, and there have a number of issues around this. In one sense, in terms of the macro picture of the management of the public purse, this scheme is expensive, and I know that there has been concern previously about the amount of public money the scheme is consuming and, indeed, how, on occasion, individuals almost seem to exploit the scheme for their own benefit. We do not condone gaming a system that is meant to protect officers who, sadly, cannot continue to work because of life-limiting conditions and the sort of things I talked about. In broad-brush terms, I would like to see a scheme that is fair and equitable but also a lot faster. If someone is trying to work with the rules, is suffering, for example, from PTSD and cannot work any more, and just wants to exit the police to try to remedy some of the issues that are troubling them, then, if we can speed that up and bring that service to a conclusion for the benefit of all parties, that will be success for me.

Mr Beattie: Thanks, Chief Constable. I will maybe write to you and see if we can organise a meeting with your officials to talk some of that through.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): We have two minutes left.

Ms Dillon: For Doug's information, the Policing Board has a specific working group on that issue, and it might be beneficial for you to meet that group. It can probably answer more of the questions.

Mr Beattie: You are right, and I do know that. Some of the complaints I am getting are about how that working group is applying the outworkings of it. For example, I am getting people complaining that a medical professional is saying, when someone goes off, that the person should be a band 4, but that working group is deciding that they are a band 2. There are concerns.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Sorry, is there anything for the Chief Constable?

Ms Dillon: Yes. Chief Constable, can I ask about the Black Lives Matter protest? The PSNI used section 44 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 to caution a number of those involved in the protest on 6 June. The Serious Crime Act obviously is what it says: it is intended to be used for serious crime. Do you think that the use of that section in relation to a peaceful protest was appropriate and proportionate?

Chief Constable Byrne: I will be careful here because, again, this is, for some people, a prosecution that is in process, and, in a number of cases, files have been submitted to the PPS. I am doing this from memory, but I think that, in another case, someone accepted a caution. We will be answering some detailed questions on this next week at the board. It is also tied into the general examination of the Black Lives Matter protest, Linda, by the ombudsman. On the question of appropriateness and proportionality, I am a bit wary of giving an answer until she is finished giving her conclusions, but we can discuss that at a further Committee meeting or at the board once we have her conclusions, which we anticipate getting in the next few weeks.

Ms Dillon: In fairness, it is up for discussion at the board. That is fine. I will leave it with the board.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): There is no one else. Finally, I want to put an issue on your radar, Chief Constable. I have spoken to my district commander and to the head of the Prison Service about this, and I have raised it with the Justice Minister. It is about the planned protest and camp at Maghaberry prison, and I have made my views clear to all those individuals. My view is that there should be no facilitation whatsoever of what is planned and that it would severely undermine any confidence in other regulations if this protest or camp were facilitated. I have a constituency interest there because nobody in the village that I represent, Maghaberry, wants this to be facilitated by the police. I am putting it on your radar. I appreciate that operational decisions have to be taken in respect of that. Hopefully, it comes to nothing anyway. Sometimes these things do, and it is flagged up on social media and so on. I am putting my view on that out there.

Chief Constable Byrne: I have heard those views, Chair, and it is likely to be one of a number of protests that we will deal with over the weekend.

The Chairperson (Mr Givan): Chief Constable, I thank you and your team for taking the time with us. We have spent a good two hours going through a wide range of issues and, as always, that is very much appreciated. There will be some work streams that we will want to pick up with the Department of Justice in due course. For now, thank you and best wishes to you and your colleagues.