Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Members, I will proceed through the Bill, highlighting the areas of proposed amendment and seeking your views. If there is dissent on any of the clauses, we will go to a vote.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): The long title will read:

Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): The Committee sought minor amendments to clause 1. It now reads that the First Minister or the deputy First Minister can bring a motion to annul the climate emergency and that any Member can bring a motion to redeclare the emergency, as required.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Members will note that subsection (2) outlines the climate objective to establish a net zero economy by 2045. The Committee sought amendments to clause 2 to have the first climate action plan (CAP) laid within 24 months of Royal Assent and to change the baseline year for fluorinated gases (F-gases) to 1995.

Is the Committee content with clause 2, subject to the proposed amendments? William, is your hand up?

Mr Irwin: Yes. We cannot support that clause. Given the Climate Change Committee's (CCC) view, and the view of the wider industry, that net zero by 2045 is undoable and possibly very damaging to the industry, we will not support that clause.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): What clause are you referring to, William?

Mr Irwin: Clause 2.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): OK. Rosemary, do you want to come in on that?

Mrs Barton: Again, we are following the CCC recommendations. We have also had talks with parties related to agriculture and the agri-economy. We cannot support clause 2 and its objective to achieve net zero by 2045.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): We have not reached agreement on clause 2 so we will go to a vote. I will ask the Committee Clerk to come in to keep me right.

The Committee Clerk: We are still quorate. Mr Irwin and Mrs Barton have highlighted their concerns about the 2045 target in clause 2. We will note that in the draft Bill report. Given that there is dissent in opinion, I advise that you put the Question and go to a vote. The majority opinion, and the way in which members voted, will be reflected in the Bill report.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Has that been noted?

The Committee Clerk: Yes, Chair.

John Blair has just joined the meeting. At present, there are three votes in favour of clause 2 and three against. We did not include John's vote, as he logged on just as we were taking that vote. Given that John joined the meeting when that decision was being made, it might be prudent to consider John's vote on clause 2.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Will I take the vote again, or will I ask John for his vote?

The Committee Clerk: It is advisable to seek John's view on clause 2.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): John, are you for or against clause 2?

Mr Blair: It would be helpful if I could hear a summary of what you have just discussed, and then you could take the vote again.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): I will read it again, John. Clause 2 covers the preparation of climate action plans. Members will note that clause 2(2) outlines the climate objective to establish a net zero economy by 2045. The Committee sought amendments to clause 2 to have the first climate action plan laid within 24 months of Royal Assent and to change the baseline year for F-gases to 1995.

I then asked whether the Committee is content with clause 2, subject to the proposed areas of amendment?

Mr Irwin: The Committee needs to reflect carefully on what it does. The advice from the Climate Change Committee is clear, as is the advice from the industry. Members should reflect carefully before they cast their vote, because this is a very serious situation. If we go ahead with clause 2, it will leave the industry in Northern Ireland in peril.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): John, what is your decision on clause 2?

John, you need to unmute.

Mr Blair: From what I have heard, I am content to go ahead.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): So, you support the clause, John?

Mrs Barton: Declan, may I come in?

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Yes, Rosemary.

Mrs Barton: We have already taken a vote, and it was 3:3. Can we retake that vote? When the meeting started, we took the vote, and it was 3:3.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Yes. I will take advice from the Committee Clerk on that.

The Committee Clerk: Rosemary, I appreciate that point. We were quorate when the Question was put, and John entered the meeting whilst we were taking the vote. There is not prescriptive guidance on that, so it is up to the Committee. Given that John entered the meeting during the process of putting the Question, it is reasonable that his right to exercise his vote on that matter be considered.

Mr Harvey: Chair, Tom has been trying to get into the meeting since the start and cannot. He has sent me a couple of messages to say that he cannot get in. If we are going to take another vote, will the Committee Clerk look into that before we do so?

The Committee Clerk: Yes.

Mr Harvey: The message is, "Why am I not being let in to the meeting?". I do not know what the problem is. Will you look into it, please?

The Committee Clerk: We will confirm that the meeting is unlocked.

Thank you, Harry, for that. We will try to get Tom in as quickly as we can.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Perhaps we should pause the meeting for a moment until we resolve the issue with Tom getting in.

Mr Irwin: Chair, that would be the fair thing to do.

The Committee Clerk: Yes, Chair, we will take a short pause until we can get Tom into the meeting. I am not sure what the technical issue is, so we will pause proceedings for the moment.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you, members. We have resolved our technical issues.

Before the Committee suspended, it was looking at clause 2, which covers the preparation of climate action plans. Members will note that clause 2(2) outlines that the "climate objective" is to establish a net zero economy by 2045. The Committee sought amendments to clause 2 so that the first climate action plan is laid within 24 months of Royal Assent and to change the baseline year for F-gases to 1995.

Before the suspension, I put the Question on whether the Committee was content with clause 2, subject to the proposed amendments. There was dissent in the Committee, and I put it to a vote. I will ask the Question again.

Ms Bailey: I declare an interest as the Bill's sponsor, but I am voting as a member of the Committee.

Mr McGuigan: Following on from what Clare said, I have publicly stated that I am a co-sponsor of the Bill, although I am not named. I declare that as an interest.

Mr Blair: Likewise for me, Chair. It might be that we could record that once rather than going through it every time. I am in that same position.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): OK. Thank you for that.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Has that been recorded?

The Committee Clerk: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Are we in favour?

The Committee Clerk: No. It is a split vote. Four members voted in favour of clause 2 and four against. The report will reflect that there was not a majority decision.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Clause 3 covers the contents of the climate action plans. The amendments that we sought refer to the just transition principles at clause 3(8),

carbon leakage and the establishment of the just transition fund for agriculture.

Mr McGuigan: I am content with clause 3. However, I am looking to table an amendment that may alter the definition of transboundary and I wish to have that noted in the Committee report.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you. That is noted, Philip. OK, members.

Ms Bailey: Like Philip, I am content with clause 3. However, my party will table an amendment on the transboundary issue at Consideration Stage.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): OK, members, we will move on.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Clause 4 outlines the reporting framework for the CAPs. The Committee's suggested amendments include that a general duty be placed on public bodies in respect of climate change mitigation.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): On clause 6, the Committee has sought an amendment to remove reference to the Official Secrets Act 1989.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): The proposed amendments to clause 10 will enable a commissioner to take copies of documents and additional safeguards to limit access to documentation, in line with the Data Protection Act 2018.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): The agreed amendment proposes to amend clause 12 to define subordinate legislation accurately.

Ms Bailey: I want to make members aware that this was drafted before there was a court ruling in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament took a judicial review and the Supreme Court made a ruling. While it was not about a climate change Bill, it was about devolved competency and reach. I just wanted members to be aware that, as the Bill's sponsor, and given the legal advice that I have received, I do not intend to move clause 12.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you for that, Clare.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): An amendment has been proposed to schedule 1 to ensure that the commissioner must submit accounts to the Public Accounts Committee.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Is the Committee content with schedule 2 as drafted?

Mr McGuigan: We previously took a decision to remove the reference to the Official Secrets Act 1989, but I notice that it is still in schedule 1. Obviously, that will be taken out of schedule 1 as part of a tidying-up exercise.

Ms Bailey: Thanks for raising that. An amendment has been drafted to that effect, Philip, and I will be tabling it. There will be a tidying-up exercise, and it will be done.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr McAleer): We have now completed our clause-by-clause consideration of the Climate Change Bill. When we reconvene at 3:00 pm, we will commence our consideration of the draft report on the Bill. There has been a lot of informal deliberation in order to get to this point, so thank you for that.