Official Report: Minutes of Evidence
Committee for Communities, meeting on Tuesday, 14 December 2021
Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Ms Kellie Armstrong (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Andy Allen MBE
Mr Stephen Dunne
Mr Mark Durkan
Mrs Ciara Ferguson
Mr Paul Frew
Miss Áine Murphy
Witnesses:
Ms Charlotte Ahmed, Advice NI
Mr Kevin Higgins, Advice NI
Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements (Amendment) Bill: Advice NI
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): We are due to hear from Kevin Higgins, Emma Mullin and Charlotte Ahmed. I can see Kevin. As I always say, you are the font of all knowledge, Kevin, so you are welcome today. I will give you about 10 minutes, Kevin, if that is OK. Go ahead and start your briefing, after which we will have some questions for you.
Mr Kevin Higgins (Advice NI): No problem. Thank you very much, Kellie. As ever, thank you to the Committee for the invitation. I am the head of policy with Advice NI. Hopefully Charlotte will join us, because she was to go through the detailed views that we have on the amendment to the legislation. I was proposing to then provide some wrap-up information on a case study and some general thoughts that the Committee might want to take into account.
As you know, Advice NI is the umbrella organisation for the independent advice network. We provide advice and support to those who need it most, usually in the area of social security and welfare reform but also on debt and money advice, which is particularly relevant to this issue, housing, employment, consumer issues and so on. Our purpose, in this session, is to be as concise, focused and targeted as possible and to be realistic about where there is an opportunity to make changes through the amendment legislation and where that change is likely to bring about significant beneficial impact. We will try our best to focus on that.
As you may know, gambling is not a particular focus for us in our expertise, services and so on, but our views on the impact of problem gambling or, to put it another way, how we support those suffering from gambling addiction.
Terminology is important: I may say something later about whether we are sanitising things or could perhaps be a bit edgier, which might reach out more to people who struggle with such things.
Hopefully, my colleague Charlotte has joined us. I invite her to introduce herself and to go through her comments. If she passes back to me at the end, I will wrap up our presentation.
Ms Charlotte Ahmed (Advice NI): Thanks, Kevin.
From April 2020 to March 2021, 11 cases were opened with the Advice NI debt team, with the reason for the indebtedness being gambling. The total debt was just under £217,000. That illustrates how widespread gambling addiction is. It affects not only individuals but their families.
Advice NI will highlight and respond to four areas of the revised legislation: gaming machines, societies' lotteries, the industry levy and the code of practice. Advice NI believes the measures to be appropriate and socially responsible.
Clause 7 creates a new offence in relation to the playing of gaming machines by persons under the age of 18. Advice NI agrees with the amendment and believes that it is appropriate to allocate the responsibility for preventing underage gambling to those who operate gaming machines.
The amendment in clause 9 removes the £1 ticket price limit for societies' lotteries. It facilitates fundraising by charities as opposed to the promotion of gambling. Advice NI welcomes the removal of the £1 cap, which should help charities operating in Northern Ireland specifically.
Clause 14 inserts a new article to allow the Department to make regulations on the payment of a levy to the Department by every person who intends to apply for a grant or the renewal of a licence. In our response to the all-party group on reducing harm relating to gambling, Advice NI stated:
"Advice NI strongly suggest due consideration be given to providing additional funding to consumer, advice and gambling support organisations that seek to prevent and address debt and addiction problems."
It is therefore encouraging to see legislation that generates moneys from the gambling operators and distributes it to projects. The gambling operators should take responsibility for addressing the real needs of people addicted to gambling. Certain organisations subject to the levy will have considerably higher profits than others; for example, bookmakers' profits will be higher than those of bingo halls. The levy could be a percentage of profits, using a tiered approach based on income levels.
The code of practice describes arrangements that should be made to ensure that gambling is conducted fairly and that persons under the age of 18 and other vulnerable persons are protected from gambling harm or exploitation. That is crucial. Advice NI welcomes the strengthening of existing regulatory protections for operators and consumers — specifically young people and those vulnerable to gambling harm — such as age verification. Although some measures already exist, a greater onus needs to be placed on the operators so that they have a legal responsibility to ensure that the vulnerable are not exploited by gambling. Advice NI is therefore keen to see a code of practice implemented.
Back to you, Kevin.
Mr Higgins: It is a bit like the TV news: "Back to the studio". Thank you for that, Charlotte. I will wrap up.
We provided our case study to the Committee, so I will not rehearse it word for word, except to say that it is the type of case that our debt service in particular comes across, and there are significant amounts of money involved. As we said in our case study, a family member had paid off £15,000 of the client's gambling debt, but £19,000 remained outstanding, of which £10,000 was owed to other family members and friends and £9,000 to credit cards, payday loans and overdrafts. Expensive forms of debt had been accrued from gambling. Our debt adviser was able, first, to signpost other forms of counselling and support for the person; in this case, the family unit seemed to have come round the person and the person felt that there was adequate support there. Then, to deal particularly with the debt problem caused by the gambling, the adviser was able to help the person to put in place a debt management plan. That almost lifted the weight of the financial issue, and the person felt a huge sense of relief that they were able to manage the debt and concentrate on moving forward as they moved away from the gambling problem that had blighted and ruined their life.
Emma, our debt manager, has said that many clients, such as the client in the case study, have accrued significant amounts of debt as a direct result of gambling. In our experience, gambling can have a devastating impact not only on the life of the client; it trickles out. It goes to the wider family circle and friends circle. Worryingly, that can lead to the people who have the problem being ostracised, particularly if they owe money. They end up becoming isolated and so on and then get into greater problems. That is the case study.
Deputy Chair, I will wrap up with some final thoughts. Independent advice should be a crucial part of any treatment package, because, if the person can get the finances in order, they can focus on the treatment and counselling and on trying to get that sorted. Those two things can and should go hand in hand.
I referred to the language used in relation to problem gambling. Should we try to be more edgy and call it out for what it is for the people affected by it and suffering from it? Should we use the term "gambling addiction", for instance? I logged on to the National Lottery website. The terminology used there is interesting. It invites us to "Play" the National Lottery and states:
"Our games are fun and enjoyable."
Do we need to consider that terminology and framing around playing and fun and to think about where we are? Are we being led by the gambling industry? Should we reflect, take stock and use terminology and language that is more reflective of the perspective of the client than that of the gambling industry?
A central collation of statistics would be interesting. A central reserve for statistics, particularly around problem gambling, would be important. I was struck by the statistic in the paper that Northern Ireland's rate of problem gambling is around 2·3%, which is four times higher than that of GB. That was established on the back of research. If we had a real-time collation of stats, it would give us a better idea of the ongoing nature of the problem and, depending on the stats provided, give us an idea of the areas or types of gambling in which the problem lies. The collation of stats warrants consideration.
The legislation does not touch on online gambling, but, perhaps, we need to think about that. Can we be innovative and creative around that issue? I have no doubt that there will be work on that in the future. Can we be creative and innovative about getting something into the legislation about that? For example, the code of practice could ask the industry to prepare for greater legislation and regulation on the online aspect. That would almost be sending a signal — a shot across the bows — that more is coming and, perhaps, place a requirement on the industry to think and do more about it.
The new article 180A(2) refers to:
"protecting persons under the age of 18 and other vulnerable persons".
As the Committee may know, we are taking a great interest in the issue of safeguarding. We are trying to promote safeguarding and say that the Department for Communities, in particular, should consider it when dealing with vulnerable benefit claimants. I was particularly struck by the Philippa Day case that was in the headlines a number of weeks ago. We are trying to say, "Let's take that final step and commit to a safeguarding approach". We are trying to introduce that into all aspects of the work in which we engage with the Department. We could usefully use the safeguarding approach in the legislation. For example, we suggest that instead of "protecting persons" use "safeguarding persons". To me, "safeguarding" brings a particular structure, rigour and meaning that "protecting" does not. Perhaps "protecting" gives elbow room, vagueness and a grey area, whereas, with the term "safeguarding", there are definitions, structures, policies and procedures out there. That warrants consideration.
That piece talks about "making assistance available". Perhaps we could define what "assistance" feels and looks like. The BeGambleAware website shows other sources of help such as Citizens Advice, which covers England and Wales, Citizens Advice Scotland and StepChange. There is no reference to organisations that provide help in this part of the world. In many ways, we are a little excluded, and, more importantly, the person from this part of the world who needs help may feel excluded from accessing services and so on. It is a little bit GB-orientated. It is important for the code of practice to be specific to this part of the world and to the organisations that are here to provide help and support.
Hopefully, that is helpful. I will hand over to you, Kellie, and the Committee.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): Thank you so much, Kevin. That was a point well made. We need to be careful with that and to make sure that, if we use or reference other legislation or even regulations, those are Northern Ireland-proofed. I have a few questions, and then I will take it out to the floor.
As you said in your paper and as we heard from Charlotte today, you welcome the introduction of the industry levy, but certain organisations will have considerably higher profits than others, such as bookmakers and bingo halls. You propose that the levy should or could be a percentage of the profits based on a tiered approach. Will you outline what you mean by that and how it might work in practice? Should it be a statutory levy that takes a tiered approach?
Mr Higgins: Charlotte, I will invite you to come in on that as well. Our general thinking is that we do not want to be overly cumbersome, bureaucratic or financially punitive on smaller and, maybe, voluntary sector organisations and other organisations for which the generation of that income provides some amount of money, but that is nowhere near other players on the scale. From a fairness point of view, we wanted to be fair and to reflect that in some way. That was the purpose and intention. Charlotte, do you want to say anything more detailed about the levy?
Ms Ahmed: We can take that away and provide further information at a later date in a written submission.
Mr Higgins: The issue of fairness is where we were coming from. A blanket 1% may seem very easy and all the rest of it, but it may not be fair from the point of view of scale.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): Thank you. I have another question before I go to other members. You welcomed the introduction of a code of practice. Should that be mandatory or voluntary?
Mr Higgins: Again, I will call Charlotte in on that. From my perspective, if we are going to the bother of bringing in a code of practice, I would like to see it being mandatory. A code of practice in and of itself — let us put it this way — may give organisations enough wriggle room for what they are trying to do in their interpretation of the code of practice. At the very least, I want to see it being made mandatory. I suppose that the field of battle will move to how they are implementing it. Charlotte, what do you think?
Ms Ahmed: Hopefully, Advice NI agrees with me that a code of practice needs to have teeth. There is no point in having a vague suggestion that many organisations can ignore for their own interests. Therefore, as long as it is fair and protecting the vulnerable, I believe that it should be mandatory.
"Before issuing or revising a code under this Article the Department must consult—
(a) such organisations as appear to the Department to represent the interests of the gambling industry in Northern Ireland,
(b) persons who appear to the Department to have knowledge about social problems relating to gambling".
Many people could contribute to that. Do we need to define that better or to widen it out? I am concerned because "social problems" needs to include financial implications. For instance, where does a family member go, if they want to discuss the financial implications that they are involved in to help to repay debt? Have you any thoughts on whether we should specify that or on another way to widen that out to make sure that the Department is as inclusive as possible?
Mr Higgins: I take the point. Kellie, your point is well made that we are trying to get it to be as wide and as inclusive as possible. If you think about it, you can see that it can be quite stigmatising. Emma, our debt service manager, said that there could be more cases than we were able to highlight in our evidence to the Committee, because people hold back on how the debt was generated. We spoke about the impact on the wider family circle and friends circle. Your point is well made. The Department promoted very widely on social media and so on that it welcomes views. That would be one potential solution, and we can perhaps come back to the Committee on that. Charlotte, do you have any particular additional views on that?
Ms Ahmed: No. I agree with you.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): Charlotte, I hope that I picked this up right. For clarification, did you say at the start that you had gone through the records for a year and that there were 11 people and that that totalled £217,000 of debt?
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): My goodness. It just goes to show, for such a small number of people, the extravagant amount of debt that has been brought up. Interestingly, last night, I went on the National Lottery website to have a look at it. I noted that it was later on at night and that access to buying lottery tickets had been closed, which was fine. However, in its place, there was a game that you could pay x amount of pounds for, and that was instant win stuff. Just as you talked about, it was all flashy advertising and was enticing. We have made it that cigarette packets are bland. Thinking about that advertising, do you think that there is something missing in the Bill about limiting advertising? Mark, do you want to come in on that issue?
Mr Durkan: Chair, I was scrawling some notes on a napkin along those lines. A remark that Kevin made and which you have now reiterated got me thinking on that. I am thinking of the sort of advertising that says, "Play this game". You referred to cigarette packaging, and we have seen in places, with a degree of success, the removal of unhealthy snacks and drinks from checkouts in shops, yet that is precisely where National Lottery scratch cards are sold. Christmas specials will be being sold now.
I do not expect you to have the full stats off the top of your head or at hand on this. Of the people with problem-gambling issues who your advisers are helping to deal with their issues, is there a way of breaking down how many are hooked on online gambling and how many are going into bookie shops? You can avoid websites and can avoid going into a bookie's, but you cannot really avoid going into ordinary convenience stores or supermarkets and getting those scratch cards up the face. There might be something that is worth considering around the placing of those products in shops.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): I know that it is difficult when somebody comes to you with financial problems. As you said, it might be difficult to find out exactly where that debt has been created from, unless they admit that there is a gambling issue there. Would taking away that point-of-sale type of gambling help? Have you any thoughts on that?
Mr Higgins: We will come back to you. We will try our best to get more information, Kellie, on the 11 cases that we highlighted. We will speak to the advisers, who can maybe go back to the people and try to get some more information, on a completely anonymous basis, highlighting that it is for the helpful purpose of trying to improve things for others as we move forward.
The point about accessibility and terminology is well made. Perhaps the terminology battle is the first one that we can win on this. As you said, it is interesting that flashy adverts are used with the terminology around play and the fun aspect and so on. Admittedly, we are one-sided about this, and we see the problem. It is about us — not just us as Advice NI but us as a whole society — reclaiming the terminology and not just being driven by the terminology of the industry. I picked out the example of "problem gambling". Do we need to be a little bit edgier about that and talk about people suffering from "gambling addiction"? That is perhaps a more accurate reflection and description of the dark place where people can be when they are under real pressure.
The point about the bland packaging of cigarettes and so on was well made. Why can we not go down a similar road with this issue? Obviously, there would be objections to that, as there were to the smoking packaging, but it is the right thing to do.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms Armstrong): Kevin and Charlotte, there are no further questions from members. You offered to go away and think about a few things. If you could come back to the Committee on those, it would be really appreciated. Our time is flying on with the Bill, and Christmas is coming, but, if you could come back with something in the new year, that would be really helpful.
As I said to the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action (NICVA), we may not speak to you again between now and Christmas. Happy Christmas to both of you. Please pass on our thanks as a Committee to all who work in Advice NI. As constituency MLAs, we all know how helpful you are with our constituents and how much help we get from you with constituency cases. Please pass on our best wishes. Tell everyone to keep safe; we need them. Happy Christmas to all at Advice NI and to you. Thank you.
Mr Higgins: Thank you, Kellie. I sometimes make a habit of doing this, but, in summary to everything that has been said — I know that the Committee has a lot of work to do — today and in our submission, if we could get the word "safeguarding" put in to the Bill to replace "protecting", that would be a job well done.
Thank you, Kellie. I wish the Committee a restful break over Christmas. Thank you.