Official Report: Monday 27 January 2025


The Assembly met at 12:00 pm (Mr Speaker in the Chair).
Members observed two minutes' silence.

Members' Statements

Mr Speaker: The first item in the Order Paper is Members' statements.

Lá Cuimhneacháin an Uileloiscthe

Mr Kearney: Tá Lá Cuimhneacháin ar Íospartaigh an Uileloiscthe tábhachtach, nó tugann sé deis dúinn machnamh a dhéanamh ar na hainghníomhartha is uafásaí a rinneadh ar an chine dhaonna. Comórann sé gníomhartha uafásacha cinedhíothaithe a rinneadh ar na milliúin íospartach. De dheasca an fhaisisteachais le linn an Dara Cogadh Domhanda, dúnmharaíodh sé mhilliún fear, bean agus páiste Giúdach, lena n-áirítear daoine faoi mhíchumas, baill den phobal LADT+, mionlaigh eitneacha agus príosúnaigh pholaitíochta. Tá an tUileloscadh ar cheann de na dúbhearta is measa i stair an chine dhaonna.

Is gairm chun gnímh é Lá Cuimhneacháin ar Íospartaigh an Uileloiscthe do chách atá tiomanta chun cearta an duine agus chun an daonlathais. Éilítear orainn seasamh le chéile i gcoinne gach cineál seineafóibe, ciníochais agus leithcheala. Tá dualgas morálta orainn an comhionannas, an ceartas agus an tsíocháin a chosaint agus seasamh go daingean in aghaidh an chinedhíothaithe, bíodh sin cinedhíothú a rinneadh san am atá caite nó cinedhíothú atá ar obair san am i láthair.

Holocaust Memorial Day

[Translation: Holocaust Memorial Day is an important time to reflect on the most horrific atrocities committed against humanity. It marks the most deplorable acts of genocide against millions of victims. During World War II, fascism murdered six million Jewish men, women and children, including disabled people, members of the LGBT+ community, ethnic minorities and political prisoners. The Holocaust is one of the darkest episodes in modern human history.

Holocaust Memorial Day is a call to action by everyone committed to human rights and democracy. It demands that we collectively stand against all forms of xenophobia, racism and discrimination. Our moral duty must be to champion equality, justice and peace, and to stand firmly against genocide in both the past and the present day.]

Storm Éowyn

Mr Dunne: Storm Éowyn struck Northern Ireland with unprecedented force on Friday. It has left a trail of destruction and had an impact on every corner of our country. As the clear-up operation and work to restore power continue, I commend and pay tribute to the front-line and essential workers who were at the coalface of the storm. Although we are not out of the woods yet, we have made significant progress, and we should pay tribute to all those who have spent the past three days working very hard for us in some treacherous conditions indeed. To the Northern Ireland Electricity (NIE) teams, the various agencies, DFI engineers, healthcare providers or carers, the PSNI, the emergency services, local farmers, council staff and local community volunteers, we say, "Thank you".

The storm, which was described by the Met Office as potentially the strongest to hit our United Kingdom in well over a decade, bringing winds in excess of 90 mph, left thousands of homes and businesses without power.

At its height, power to 220,000 properties and 30% of premises here was disconnected, which showed the scale of the challenge that we faced. The logistical support from the rest of our United Kingdom, and, indeed, from Europe, is very welcome. Progress has been made on that, and I think that more support is coming. My constituency of North Down was not spared. Two schools have had to close their doors today — Donaghadee Primary School and Clifton School — but, thankfully, they will be able to reopen tomorrow.

The storm has had an impact on people of every age. Many homeowners, businesses and farms are still without power, including in the Craigantlet hills, just two miles behind this very Building. We need to see urgent progress on getting full restoration. Many roads were blocked over the weekend, and communities faced significant challenges, including structural damage to homes and businesses, uprooted trees blocking roads and disruption to many essential services. Through the storm, we saw community spirit at its best, with communities coming together, standing shoulder to shoulder in every corner of Northern Ireland. Churches opened their doors, local businesses provided food, community groups supported the most vulnerable and farmers cleared roads, to name but a few. Many vulnerable people were hit hardest. Our elderly population, those who are ill, newborn babies and young families have been greatly impacted on by the long power outages.

As we move forward, we must remain vigilant and be prepared for future weather events. Lessons that need to be learned as a result of this storm include the need for robust and clear emergency preparedness. There is also a need for coordination and support for those most impacted on. Also, NIE has a role to play in compensating with goodwill payments those most impacted on.

Character References: Sexual Assault Cases

Mr Tennyson: It is with genuine regret that I rise to address the issue of providing good character references in cases involving serious sexual offences, after it emerged over the weekend that Councillor Brian Tierney of the SDLP provided a reference for Kielan Mooney, a man convicted of rape at the Central Criminal Court in Dublin. The provision of such references adds an additional layer of distress for any victim in any case, but when an elected representative is involved, that hurt is compounded not only for the victim in question but for all victims in our society.

Just because a man is seen to be of good standing, just because he is a sportsperson, is active in the community or has a successful career, does not mean that he is not capable of abuse. All of us in the Chamber have spoken about our genuine desire to tackle violence against women and girls. Therefore, it is incumbent on us, as elected representatives, and on political parties, to lead by example and to act. Serious questions have therefore been raised for the SDLP and for Councillor Tierney. Given that the charge was rape, how could he possibly not have been aware of the seriousness of the allegations? Why has he not been suspended, and why has there been no mention of sanction or disciplinary action in SDLP statements over the weekend?

Leadership is not simply about how we respond to these issues when they appear in other parties but how we respond when they befall our own. Victims deserve accountability and to see this issue treated seriously. It is difficult to fathom how Mr Tierney can remain an elected representative. He and his party ought to be considering his position. I gently ask the leader of the Opposition and the leader of the SDLP to reflect, to be consistent based on the demands that they have made of other parties and to take the appropriate action in the interest of the victims concerned.

Holocaust Memorial Day

Dr Aiken: Today is Holocaust Memorial Day. The date of 27 January is chosen because it marks the moment 80 years ago when the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camps were liberated. Last week, on BBC Radio 4, Ivor Perl BEM, a camp survivor, spoke of the horrors of the Holocaust, the murder of six million Jews and the need for remembrance. As he said, that need for remembrance has never been greater as the vile scourge of antisemitism has re-emerged with vehemence.

I am proud that the Assembly debated and agreed to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism in April 2021, that, as an Assembly, we recognise that the scourge of antisemitism has to be combated, and that, all too regrettably, far too many across this island use antisemitic tropes on an almost daily basis, thinly disguised, if at all, under the banner of criticism of Israel. That criticism is without balance and regularly ignores the ongoing violence across the Middle East, eastern Europe and beyond. It seems that, because Israel is involved, it is somehow acceptable to focus wholly on the Jewish community and go for wholesale victim-blaming of that community at every opportunity. For the avoidance of doubt, that is not legitimate criticism but blatant antisemitism.

One of the worst examples has come from the Irish state. Across the United States, all over Europe and amongst the Jewish people, Ireland is now seen as a haven of antisemitism. Anyone who saw the disgraceful hauling away of a pregnant Jewish academic, who was making a dignified and silent protest at the Irish president's politicisation of remarks at the Holocaust memorial event in Dublin yesterday, will be in no doubt about the ingrained antisemitism now prevalent on this island. While self-awareness was never a trait that could be laid at President Higgins's door, especially after he blamed the Israeli embassy for leaking his remarks about the leadership of the Iranian regime, we should heed the remarks of the Chief Rabbi of Ireland, who said that the president had:

"neglected even to acknowledge the scourge of contemporary antisemitism in Ireland, let alone do anything to address it."

At the commemoration in Dublin of the 7 October massacre, neither the president, the Taoiseach nor the Tánaiste thought it worthy to attend a Dublin synagogue in solidarity with Ireland's small Jewish community. That was bad enough. However, yesterday's blatant attempt to equate the Holocaust with events in the Middle East is beyond revulsion. That Simon Harris chose to defend Higgins' remarks just reinforces to the world the real state of antisemitism in Ireland. Listening again to Ivor Perl's words about the fear of antisemitism in the so-called civilised West, one does not have to look very far from these Benches to see how many of our fears are being realised.

Storm Éowyn

Mr McCrossan: I pay tribute to all the front-line workers who stepped up over the past few days in what were difficult circumstances, particularly in rural areas. As an MLA representing a rural constituency, I know too well the storm's impact on vulnerable and elderly people across the constituency. Unfortunately, four days later, quite a number are still without electricity; in some cases, they are without water, telephone or any form of communication as well. The storm caused huge stress and anxiety to people who are already vulnerable. They feel isolated and cut off, and some explained that it adversely affected their mental health and general well-being.

The storm that we witnessed over the past few days was unprecedented, but it should be a signal of how we must be prepared for future events and ensure that our society and communities are protected from the worst impacts of such a storm. I pay tribute to Northern Ireland Electricity workers, who restored power to a significant number of properties in a short time and in extremely difficult circumstances and weather conditions. I also pay tribute to others in our community. If you are a neighbour of a vulnerable person and you called to see them, I thank you. If you opened community centres, businesses or churches, I thank you. If you were out checking in on people, helping them via a phone call or other means, or bringing water and food supplies, I thank you. Those are the moments when we see the best of our community and its most human side: when we step up and support those who are in need.

Today, however — four days later, as I said — there are people still without electricity, water or access to supplies that they desperately need, and others are worried about their health and well-being. Unfortunately, there is a sense that the Executive have been invisible over the past four days and have not stepped up to provide reassurance to the people across Northern Ireland who were directly affected by the storm. More could have been done and must be done. Aside from any fancy photographs that will appear, action needs to be taken to support the people who are struggling in our communities.


12.15 pm

Bloody Sunday: Anniversary

Mr Delargy: This week is the 53rd anniversary of Bloody Sunday, when British soldiers murdered 14 civilians on the streets of Derry and seriously wounded 13 more. Growing up in Derry, as a young man, I was told stories by my grandparents of how they had marched for civil rights and a better future for my generation to enjoy. They were part of a generation that stood up and said, "No more": no more to second-class citizenship, no more to inferior housing and no more to being denied the right to vote. When I think of them, I think of those who marched and never came home, whose memory the British state tried so hard to erase.

The people of Derry knew that they were innocent. They knew that they had marched for civil rights and had been shot down on their own streets by an army that purported to be protecting them. Our city stood with the Bloody Sunday families in their lengthy campaign, during which they showed such dignity and courage.

Internationally, "Bloody Sunday" became a byword for state murder and the denial of justice. The British state continues in its efforts to deny any opportunity for families to seek justice for their loved ones through its abhorrent Legacy Act, which is opposed by parties across the Chamber. We will continue to stand with the Bloody Sunday families and with families across the North in their pursuit of truth and justice.

Sergeant Gilgunn and Constable Montgomery Murders: Anniversary

Mr Middleton: It is 53 years since the senseless and brutal murders of Sergeant Peter Gilgunn and Constable David Montgomery, two men who were much loved by their family, their friends and the wider community and who served the community during the most fearful of times. Those two men were out doing their job when their lives were stolen forever. They were never to return home. Constable David Montgomery, aged just 20, and Sergeant Peter Gilgunn, a husband and a father to an eight-month-old baby son, were killed in the line of duty at 8.30 am on this very day — 27 January — in 1972. They were the first two police officers to be murdered in Londonderry during the Troubles. Peter and David were driving along the Creggan Road when they were shot and murdered by vile criminals who showed no care or concern for human life.

The murders of those two RUC officers by IRA terrorists marked a first for Londonderry, but, sadly, there would be many more murders in the remaining years of the Troubles of those who put on the uniform and went out to protect our communities from those who sought to destroy them. Life-altering physical and mental injuries would be inflicted on many more.

Peter and David's car came under fire from a number of gunmen as they travelled along the road. One gunman fired from an alleyway, while two others opened fire from 40 yds away. During the attack, another police officer was wounded. Two other colleagues escaped injury, no doubt carrying with them the trauma of that terrible atrocity for all their days. According to an RUC spokesperson at the time, the two officers did not have a chance to return fire. The driver managed to accelerate to the RUC station, despite his car being hit 17 times.

Today, my thoughts and prayers are with all the innocent people who have been impacted on and all those who continue to mourn their passing, today and every day. We must not forget their names or their stories. We must not forget whom they were to their families or the fact that they were innocent. Their stories may not receive the coverage that others' do, but we must remember them. They will not be forgotten.

Holocaust Memorial Day

Ms Bradshaw: I recognise Holocaust Memorial Day and emphasise how now, more than ever, we must stand united against antisemitism and all kinds of prejudice, hatred, discrimination and violence. This year's Holocaust Memorial Day is particularly significant, as it marks the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the largest Nazi concentration camp complex. It also marks the 30th anniversary of the genocide in Bosnia, part of the appalling and all-too-often-forgotten Yugoslav wars of the mid-1990s.

The theme for this year is "For a Better Future", and I sincerely hope that, amid the rise of autocrats around the world, we can, as democrats, all commit to that. That theme is supposed to offer us some hope. It implores each and every one of us to reflect on the atrocities of the past so that we may prevent anything similar from happening in the future. We need to ask ourselves whether we are truly committed to that in a world that is, seemingly, becoming increasingly divided and where almost any form of conduct is acceptable, provided that it is carried out by "our own side". For example, we need to reflect on the very real concerns felt by the local Jewish community in Northern Ireland at the hatred that is being directed towards them because of the conduct of the Israeli Government. We must be able to separate the two: it is entirely possible to be sympathetic to the plight of the people of Gaza, vehemently opposed to the actions of the Israeli Government and hugely concerned about the day-to-day impact on, and experiences of, the small Jewish community here, which still lives with the appalling trauma of the Holocaust.

We can be proud of the role that Northern Ireland has played at crucial stages in offering sanctuary to those who needed it: from Nazi oppression in the 1930s and those fleeing Soviet oppression in the 1950s and 1960s to Ukrainian families that were forced to leave their homes by Putin's aggression in the 2020s. We can take pride in having taken in children who were fleeing Nazi rule, as part of the Kindertransport, so that they could be part of a Northern Ireland that offered them solidarity and safety from persecution.

I have had the opportunity to visit Bergen-Belsen and to sense, in that tragic place, the scale of the human loss and of the inhumanity that caused it. We remain capable of such inhumanity, so we must constantly be on our guard against any slide in the direction of its recurrence. We must never take for granted the freedoms that we enjoy today, as we observe populist politics that continue to threaten democracy in different parts of the world and marginalised groups that are being used as scapegoats.

Drumrane Primary School: Storm Damage

Mr Robinson: I put on record our support for Drumrane Primary School, which, on Friday morning, faced violent winds that ripped off large parts of its roof. The school is located in a stunning setting, in the foothills of Benbradagh Mountain, in the village of Burnfoot, County Londonderry. It was built recently — in 2008 — when three country schools were merged, and it has 140 pupils and five classrooms.

Anyone in the Chamber who represents a rural constituency knows that a rural school is the heartbeat of its area. When a rural school is impacted on in a negative way, the impact ripples beyond its children and teachers and affects the entire area and hinterland. It was heartbreaking to arrive on Friday to see the external and internal damage to the school, but it is in a strong area. The community of Burnfoot, just outside Dungiven, are at their best when they are under pressure. That community, and its school, will thrive once more. I can guarantee that.

I thank the Education Minister who, when I contacted him on Friday, Saturday evening and Sunday, took a strong personal interest in ensuring that assessments were made for debris to be cleared, which will allow for significant repairs to be carried out. I encourage the Department of Education to keep the focus, as the Minister has done, on a full and speedy repair.

I thank the Drumrane Primary School principal and school leaders and applaud them for their patience. Rest assured, you have our support.

Storm Éowyn: NIE Critical Care List

Mr Gaston: I preface my comments by paying tribute to the thousands of front-line workers, who did not have a choice when it came to the lockdown warning for Friday morning, including the home helps, who put the needs of others above their own; the police officers; the hospital staff; and, once again, the farmers, whose assistance was invaluable to reopening many of our roads. I thank all the churches and the Orange and community halls that opened their doors so that people would have access to heat and electricity, and, of course, I thank those who were working round the clock to maintain the electricity and water supply during the storm and who have been working since to repair the vast swathes of damage caused to the network since Friday morning. I do not want my next comments to take away from the sterling job that those workers have been doing, and will, no doubt, continue to do until every home has its power restored, every road has been cleared and every house has running water again.

However, I will give some feedback to NIE to highlight the lack of proactive information that flowed to those on the critical care list.

A number of my vulnerable constituents reached out to NIE over the weekend about serious medical issues, but no callback ever came. On Saturday, I heard from a 93-year-old lady who relies on her medical chair and bed to enable her carers and family to look after her. Once the batteries ran out, her medical chair would not function, and the bed deflated. My first call about that issue on Saturday resulted in a wait of over an hour on the elected representative line to NIE. It took four further calls before NIE agreed to provide generators to a number of my constituents in similar situations, and those were delivered only after midnight.

I could recite multiple stories about constituents from yesterday. In one case, the battery ran out in a stair lift, meaning that my constituent could not get upstairs to use the toilet or get to his bed. I also think of the lady in a wheelchair who did not have power in the house for her family to operate her hoist or any of her medical equipment. Those are just some of the many stories of people on the critical care list who were just left until I contacted NIE. The call centre staff were helpful, but the problem was that there simply were not enough staff or generators to meet the needs of those in vulnerable situations.

Members, if any lesson is taken from the response to the storm, it must be that we were not well enough prepared for the vulnerable people on the NIE critical care list. I have heard tell of generators coming in from England and Scotland today, which is welcome, but we need to be better prepared and have those generators ready to go, so that, when the next storm comes, we can meet the needs of those on the critical care list.

Holocaust Memorial Day

Mr Kingston: I join in the recognition that today is Holocaust Memorial Day and the 80th anniversary of the liberation of the concentration and extermination camp Auschwitz, where Nazis murdered Jewish people and others who did not conform to their twisted vision. We know that our king will be among those attending the commemoration there today.

The Holocaust was the attempt by the Nazis to destroy all Jewish people in Europe. Building on centuries of antisemitism, the persecution of Jewish people began as soon as the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933. It is calculated that 6 million Jewish men, women and children were murdered in ghettos, mass shootings, concentration camps and death camps; also targeted and murdered were Roma and Sinti people, black people, the disabled, gay people, political opponents and others.

On this day, we also remember those targeted in more recent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur and Bosnia, of which this year is the 30th anniversary.

On Thursday evening, I joined those attending the Northern Ireland regional ceremony for Holocaust Memorial Day at Belfast City Hall. The event was addressed by our First Minister and deputy First Minister. There were poignant contributions from those with lived experience. First, there was a recorded interview with Professor Peter Lantos BEM, who grew up as a member of the Hungarian Jewish community. Of the 800,000 Jews living in Hungary in 1944, it is estimated, over two thirds — 565,000 — were murdered in the Holocaust. Peter, then aged 5, and his mother were survivors of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, where his father died of starvation. Secondly, there was an address by Munira Subašic on behalf of the Mothers of Srebrenica. In July 1995, over 8,000 Bosniak Muslim men and boys were murdered by Serb forces at Srebrenica, which was in a UN protected zone, in just two days. They included 22 members of Munira's extended family, including her husband and youngest son. Another participant at Thursday's ceremony was Reverend David Kale, rabbi of the Hebrew congregation of Belfast synagogue.

It was encouraging to see young people from a range of schools and youth organisations taking part in the ceremony. It is important that we remember those past horrors in support of the survivors, for vigilance against future atrocities and because the final stage in every genocide is denial. With sadness, we say, "Never forget. Never again. For a better future."


12.30 pm

Storm Éowyn

Ms Sugden: Like others, I will speak to the events of the past weekend, which continue to leave their mark across Northern Ireland. Thankfully and most importantly, no one was killed or seriously hurt in Northern Ireland during the storm. That is a huge relief and is credit to the swift decisions taken by the Northern Ireland Executive and the various statutory agencies. Their quick actions in closing schools, public buildings and transport networks while getting out the message to stay at home undoubtedly saved lives.

I thank everyone who worked through the storm to help others, including community groups, churches, Health and Social Care staff, the PSNI, road engineers and farmers who helped to clear up. Those efforts demonstrate the best of Northern Ireland. I particularly thank the engineers who have worked tirelessly to restore and repair the damage and continue to do so. Their work is very much appreciated.

That said, the storm has revealed serious challenges that we, as an Assembly and an Executive, need to address. The biggest issue has been the damage to our electricity network and the impact of power outages, particularly on older people, vulnerable groups and those living in rural areas. For many, losing electricity is more than an inconvenience; it can be life-changing. People relying on medical equipment had to be admitted to hospital or simply do without. Older people had been left without heat and were freezing in their homes, and rural communities were left cut off, unable to communicate or even get a hot meal. Those are the stark realities that we need to confront in the aftermath of the storm.

While storms on this scale do not happen often, when they do, they remind us of how vulnerable we can be. We need to learn from storm Éowyn and look at how we can do better next time. That might mean improving support for older and vulnerable people during emergencies, investing in backup solutions for critical medical equipment or even strengthening community networks so that no one is left isolated when the lights go out.

We also need to think about how much we rely on electricity and what happens when it is taken away. It is an important conversation that we need to start now. Storm Éowyn has shown us the challenges that we face, but it has also shown how resilient and supportive our communities can be. We need to do more and do better to recognise and support our community and voluntary sector.

Ministerial Statement

Mr Speaker: I have received notice from the Executive Office that the First Minister and deputy First Minister wish to make a statement. Before they do, I express my personal gratitude to all of those working as early responders, not just the NIE people, who go up poles and, particularly in yesterday's conditions, deserve immense gratitude, but the people from Roads Service, Northern Ireland Water, DFI Rivers and all the agencies and members of the wider public. I also pay tribute to the staff who were manning the call centres, because those people were run ragged taking calls. There probably was not enough backup for them, but staff were working an immense number of hours to give people information, which was quite limited. We should all be immensely grateful to all of those who stepped up to the plate to help others over the past number of days.

That said, I know that a lot of Members will want to ask questions to the First and deputy First Ministers, so I plead with you, given the amount of interest that there will be in the subject, to be as concise as possible when you ask questions.

Mrs O'Neill (The First Minister): Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Mr Speaker.]

I thank you and your staff for facilitating this important strategic statement on the back of the unprecedented events over the weekend. I apologise to Members that we got the statement delivered to them only in the past short while. We are in live play and are actively responding to the storm as we speak.

The storm has had an unprecedented impact across the entire island of Ireland as well as Scotland and northern England. It has left our citizens without power, water and access to communication. Some of our MLA colleagues will have experienced that themselves, and we have all seen and heard about the impact on our constituents. We wanted to come to the Assembly today to confirm our commitment to getting everybody's services restored as quickly as possible.

Across the Executive, all of our Ministers have been engaged in that effort, and I thank colleagues for that collective focus. In the interconnected world that we live in, that has been absolutely vital. Roads, schools, power, connectivity and hospitals do not exist without one another, and the effort has been huge. Our front-line workers have been really wonderful and will continue to make a strong effort in the coming days.

For our part, we have been closely engaged with the British Government to secure additional resources for NIE; we have engaged with the Prime Minister directly; we have had COBRA meetings; we have had Executive meetings; and there have been regular updates within our system across all our civil contingencies. In significant events such as this, the initial response is vital, as is the recovery phase, which we are now moving into. Our structures for civil contingencies have involved local government at the outset, then the PSNI, DFI and the Department for Communities. That partnership and multi-agency working is essential and, again, is much appreciated. What matters most, of course, is the impact on our citizens, especially the vulnerable. We reiterate our message to everybody to check in on family and friends, people in your street and your neighbours, who may be experiencing difficulties.

The community assistance centres are there to help. As always, we are grateful to local government for the centres and how quickly they were able to stand those up and for the support that they provide. We are also grateful for the support that has come and is coming over to assist NIE in the task of restoring power. That is specialist work. We ask people to take great care around electricity cables, because many are still down. Please, do not take any risks, and, please, stay safe. We will continue to monitor the situation and work collaboratively with all stakeholders, as it is of great concern to us all. We want to continue to engage with the British Government to build on the request. I have engaged with the Tánaiste directly about practical support, but we all face similar challenges at the moment.

The facts and figures will change over the coming days as we get more power and water restored, but I want to give an update on what we knew as of 10.00 am today.

There were 2,600 incidents recorded on our roads as a result of the storm, resulting in a large number of road closures. Although the main strategic road network has now opened, there are still around 100 closures with many roads remaining blocked, 60 of which require NIE assistance to remove electric cables and poles. On Sunday, 80% of the road network covered by winter service was able to be treated. That was a huge stretch in the work of DFI staff, and we welcome that.

More than 100 schools — maybe as many as 154 — have reported damage to their property, ranging from minor damage to fences and missing roof tiles to much more significant structural damage. It is estimated that approximately 100 schools are still without power. NIE has confirmed that it will, where possible, prioritise schools that do not have power. We met NIE this morning to make that case. Potentially, up to 20 schools are listed as closed today. Hopefully, we will improve that picture as quickly as possible.

At the peak, there was an unprecedented level of power outage: 285,000 customers were without power as a direct result of the storm. There were over 5,000 individual faults in the network that needed to be assessed and resolved. As of this morning, 65,000 customers remain without electricity. NIE has escalated its staff cohort and now has 1,000 staff on the ground providing support to try to get customers' electricity restored. Over 210,000 people have had their electricity restored, which is really significant progress, although that is not to take away from the fact that many people are sitting without electricity and have been for four days, which is a hugely challenging situation for them all. We continued to meet NIE over the weekend to ensure that everything that can be done is being done and that NIE has everything that it needs to respond to the emergency.

The storm has had a significant impact on NI Water assets, as a direct result of loss of electrical power or through damage to equipment. The most recent position, as of this morning, is that approximately 2,000 to 3,000 people are without water. Water teams were mobilised as soon as it was safe to do so and will continue to carry out repairs until all assets are operational. Generators have been deployed to various sites, and teams have been identifying and repairing damage to equipment as they reach it. Bottled water has been distributed at a number of leisure centres in impacted areas.

That gives a high-level assessment of where things stand in those four key areas. Our response to the storm is very much a live-play scenario that we continue to work our way through, taking a multi-agency approach.

Mr Gildernew: I thank the First Minister and the deputy First Minister for their statement. Can they set out how the Executive are prioritising vulnerable and older people, particularly those who are absolutely reliant on electricity to power medical equipment?

Mrs O'Neill: Thanks for that. We are increasingly concerned about that area. There are people who were vulnerable before the storm and people who became vulnerable during the storm, particularly four days in with no electricity or heating or, perhaps, access to a warm meal. There is a dedicated work stream to try to reach the most vulnerable in our society, and we are prioritising efforts to restore power to those homes. It is particularly difficult. That is why we are coming at it in a number of ways. We have our drop-in centres; I encourage all MLAs to use their platforms to promote those drop-in centres so that people know where they can go and what they can get at each of the centres. We are also asking the public to continue to be vigilant, as they have been, and to look out for vulnerable people.

This morning, we have put it to NIE directly that we believe that there needs to be a goodwill payment to assist people to get through this period. We will continue to engage with NIE. The Department for Communities has stood up that response to work with councils to help to fund them to provide services in a localised way. We are particularly concerned about people with chronic health conditions, people who were recognised as being vulnerable and people who have become vulnerable. I assure you that there is a dedicated team working in that area.

Mr O'Toole: I join you, First Minister, in commending the first responders — NIE staff, engineers and people who were out all weekend helping to get us back to normal after an unprecedented storm.

You talked about the team that is operating that involves the Department for Communities. How is that being coordinated centrally? It is critical that there is coordination between councils, the Executive, NIE Networks and DFI Roads. Precisely how is that being driven? Who is in charge of that team? Is it being coordinated from the Executive Office to drive it forward?

Mrs Little-Pengelly (The deputy First Minister): I thank the Member for his important question. Coordination is key to many of the issues, because we are dealing with a number of Departments and agencies, all with different responsibilities. The key thing in all of that is to ensure that the communication and coordination are working, and that is why we have set up those civil contingency structures. Over the weekend, there were, I understand, about nine strategic coordinating groups (SCGs). Many agencies and Departments are represented on those groups to do precisely what you said: to get real-time information as quickly as possible and feed it through to whoever needs to target and direct help to the places where it is needed. Those groups met a number of times. There were also official COBRA-level meetings to coordinate the UK-wide response. Of course, throughout the weekend, the First Minister and I were in constant contact, particularly through the head of the Civil Service and our civil contingencies team sitting in the Executive Office. There is a vulnerable persons cell as part of those structures, and its absolute purpose is to coordinate that response and ensure that support gets to the right people and where it needs to get to.

Ms Bradshaw: Thank you, First Minister and deputy First Minister, for your statement. I join others in thanking the front-line support agencies for their efforts over the past few days.

I believe that in Scotland, for example, they offer hotel accommodation to people who have not got electricity. As you said, First Minister, it seems as though some houses will be without power for a number of days. Given that you communicate through online news outlets and social media, would it be prudent to think about offering hotel accommodation to the families who are most vulnerable?

Mrs O'Neill: The purpose of the cell — the group that is looking at the issue of vulnerability — is to look at everything in the round: exactly what we need and where we need it. In Scotland, the power company has chosen to make the goodwill payment, including supporting people to get accommodation. We have also asked for that here. We will continue to engage on that throughout today. Obviously, over the weekend, our focus was on the immediate response and the fact that there was danger to life, limb and property. That was where we needed to focus. Now, we are very much in the recovery phase, where we are looking towards what we can do to support vulnerable people out there.

Mr Harvey: Thank you, First Minister, for your statement, and deputy First Minister, for your answers.

Obviously, a significant clean-up operation will be required in coming days. What additional support can be provided to councils or DFI to ensure that footpaths and road verge sight lines are cleared of debris, particularly from fallen trees?


12.45 pm

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. There were a significant number of obstructions. Well in excess of 2,000 were reported across Northern Ireland, with, according to the latest figures, 100 roads still closed. Trying to clear all of that has required significant work. As with the vulnerable persons cell, an infrastructure cell has been the focus, as the First Minister said, over the weekend. The two big issues — clearing the roads and reconnecting electricity and addressing the impacts of the lack of connection on mobile telephone service and water supply — are being coordinated through the civil contingencies structure, working with councils, Forest Service and others.

Everybody who is available has been pulled in to support the clearing of the roads. They have been triaged, with key routes being cleared first, but, of course, there is that connection with NIE. I cannot stress this enough: if a cable comes down, it is hugely dangerous for anybody to try to clear that. It requires NIE to be called to go on to sites and ensure that they are safe through disconnection. NIE has been clear in its messaging about that over the weekend: if there are cables, including cables that are on a tree or elsewhere, do not touch them. Call the authorities, and they will come out. That has added a bit of complication. I understand that 50 to 60 of the 100 roads require NIE assistance. That is the number that we are down to, however, and I thank all the agencies and staff in particular who have been working hard to make progress over the weekend.

Dr Aiken: My party adds its thanks to the public servants and, indeed, members of civil society who have been dealing with the issues.

First Minister, the question seems to be about what has happened to the mobile telephone networks. Many of us were rightly awakened to the concerns about the alarm that went off across the system. For many people this weekend, the mobile telephone networks have not worked, and people have had no method of getting any form of communication. Are there any lessons to be identified here, and are we talking to the mobile telephone networks to make sure that there is redundancy in their systems? There does not seem to be.

Mrs O'Neill: Yes. Some people had a triple whammy: no electricity, no water and no mobile service. I had no mobile service for a while on Friday. It is causing huge challenges for people. I assure you that we are engaging with every agency responsible to get people reconnected as quickly as possible. The storm has caused widespread network outage. Lots of MLAs will have contacted all the energy providers and mobile companies. We will continue to do that at a central level, because it is important to get people connected as quickly as possible. Sitting with no water, no electricity and no phone service is a pretty dire situation for anybody. Unfortunately, for some households, that is their position today. We assure people that we are doing everything that we can to push all agencies to do everything that they can. We will continue the good effort of the weekend in the coming days to get people back up and running and reconnected.

Ms Sheerin: I thank the Ministers for their statement. I add my name to the list of Members putting on record their thanks to all the front-line workers and everybody who has been trying to restore our services and deal with our queries over the weekend.

First Minister, what are you doing to work with councils to provide services for those who are worst affected by the storm?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for her question. Councils have played a critical role in supporting the roll-out of support to communities. That has included the opening of centres, and the Minister for Communities has been working with councils on funding support for that. I am also aware that others — sporting clubs, churches, Orange halls and community centres — have stepped up. It has been really good to see that collective community effort of people stepping up to support others who are in need. For many of the areas without electricity and water in particular, there has been coordination on water collection.

Of course, if people are without a phone signal, it is difficult to make sure that that message gets through. I absolutely concur with the Member. We are urgently asking for solutions on mobile coverage. It is connected to the lack of electricity connection. If that cannot be resolved today, we need urgent alternatives to get that mobile connection up and going. Likewise, it is entirely unacceptable that people are without water. We are on day 4, and that is creating significant hardship.

It is not just electricity that is off but water. That is also to do with the lack of electricity connection. We proposed getting generators out there in order to get the water back on. For me, the priority issue of the day is to make sure that people can access water again.

Mrs Erskine: I thank the Executive for their coordination and all the front-line staff and volunteers for their work over what was a very difficult weekend. My question follows on from what the deputy First Minister said about water. In my constituency, the lack of supply is a real issue. We are now on day 4 without water in a lot of areas. Can the deputy First Minister and the First Minister detail the community response that there is to get water out there? It was yesterday before water went out to some leisure centres. What is the financial impact on NI Water, and how will that be mitigated?

Mrs O'Neill: I will answer in reverse order. We will have to work out the financial implications. Our priority is to get the work done to get the response out there, and we will then have to deal with the cost. There was, however, no question whatsoever of our not responding in the way in which we have. There will be local solutions in every area, so I am loath to get into discussing your constituency, apart from to say that our local councils are working hard. Anyone who is unsure should go online to nidirect to see what is being provided. The west has been particularly hit with water issues, so getting water out to people is crucial. We all have questions for the agencies in the aftermath of the storm, but our priority for now is to get people the support that they need.

Ultimately, we need everyone to be reconnected to the power supply, because the situation is causing a hindrance to some water supplies. The generators will be helpful. The deputy First Minister and I have made the case for getting additional generators so that we can respond to some of the immediate water pressures, and there is a willingness for suppliers to work with us. We have been successful in securing additional generators, and we believe that there are more to come. I hope that they will get people connected to water as quickly as possible.

On a more general point, every service has been pushed to get people connected as quickly as possible. We will not rest until that is the case.

Mr McMurray: First Minister, I associate myself with what has gone before. I will mention the community centres that have opened up, such as GAA clubs and church halls. There are so many questions to ask, but I will focus on climate change, because it is likely to mean warmer oceans resulting in more intense storms and more intense bouts of weather. What learning has occurred so far from Friday's event, and what will be done?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. Over the past number of years, we have faced a significant number of events and crises. As a result, our civil contingency structures were examined in detail, and a number of recommendations were made and actioned. The First Minister and I feel that the structures that are in place have worked very well. They were stood up very quickly. We have had clear lines of internal communication. Of course, we always want to go faster and speed things up. We want to get connections restored as quickly as possible. Through those structures, we have spent the weekend pushing agencies to ensure that we get the right information.

I have made it clear that NI Water and NIE need to tell us what machinery and people they need in order to move the time frames for reconnection forward and to get the vast majority of premises' electricity back on within the next 24 to 48 hours and the remaining water issues resolved today. Those are urgent issues, but people have been working very well. Hundreds of people were out over the weekend reconnecting supply and working hard to clear roads. There was a huge effort involved, and it is right that we thank all those who have worked so hard.

Mr Sheehan: Gabhaim buíochas leis na hAirí as ucht a bhfreagraí.

[Translation: I thank the Ministers for their answers.]

Will the First Minister tell us what work is being undertaken to repair damaged schools to enable them to reopen as soon as possible?

Mrs O'Neill: There has been significant damage, and the most recent figure that I read was that 154 schools have reported some level of damage. That, however, can mean everything from damage to ridge tiles to more significant damage. I might have said "up to 20 schools" earlier, but 10 schools did not open today for a combination of reasons. The Department continues to work with NIE to restore power to those schools. Those schools are, where possible, trying to do online learning, but they have to be a priority: we have to get our children back into school. In the meeting this morning, NIE committed to continuing to work with the Department of Education and the Education Authority to ensure that schools are prioritised. We are told that the Education Authority's maintenance department is working at pace to deal with the most critical repairs. The 10 schools affected could represent a significant number of children not being in school, so we want to make sure that their doors are opened again as quickly as possible.

Ms Forsythe: I thank the Executive for their response over the weekend, during this terrible time. In my constituency, it has been good to see steady progress on the restoration of power to homes. However, many of the rural pockets across Mourne, Killowen, Scarva, Loughbrickland and particularly Katesbridge, the coldest point in Northern Ireland, are entering their fourth day without power and heat. Will the deputy First Minister provide some assurance as to the Executive's commitment not to leave rural communities behind?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for her important question. I will, absolutely. The easiest electricity connections to restore are those in urban areas. Those are prioritised due to the number of affected "customers", as NIE would describe them, or households that they serve. There will be a number of homes, particularly in rural areas, that will be very difficult to get to to fix their connection. We have been made aware of that. Those are the people who are most likely to have their power restored towards the end of the time frame.

This Friday will mark seven days from the beginning of last Friday's storm, and it looks as though those who will not be reconnected until after that will be in the more rural and isolated areas. Those people will probably also be the most vulnerable, so we need to ensure that we use all the mechanisms and local information available to target that support, particularly for people who are isolated, older and do not have a network of family and friends to rely on. We have been urging neighbours and family members to reach out to those older and more vulnerable people. We must use our network of local community organisations and local council support teams to provide warm and safe spaces that provide food, hot showers and electricity to charge devices etc. That will be critical as we move beyond day 4.

Mr Stewart: I join the First Minister and deputy First Minister in thanking all the front-line workers and volunteers who have been working tirelessly to repair storm damage. First Minister, a lot of damage has been caused to domestic and commercial properties. Some people have told me that they are really struggling to get commitments from their insurance companies and that barriers are being put in place. What can your office do to lobby the insurance companies to ensure that they are cooperating with those affected and pay out what is due?

Mrs O'Neill: Insurance companies should do the right thing and pay out. That is a question that should not have to be answered. It is not acceptable for an insurance company to run for cover when people find themselves in crisis. I send a very strong message from the House that we want all insurance companies to cooperate with the people who pay their fees every year. When people need them, insurance companies should respond accordingly. If we feel that it is appropriate to make an intervention, I am more than happy to do so.

Mr Clarke: In your statement, there is reference to the specialist requirements for collecting generators. The First Minister said that more generators were coming. Given that the priority should be connections and keeping the necessary expertise for that, is there an opportunity to use the engineers here, or bring in engineers from the mainland, to assist with the connection of the generators?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. We have been very clear in putting across a message on safety with generators, particularly through the Health and Safety Executive. There are people using generators, and there is a danger associated with that if they are not used correctly. We advise everyone who is using a generator to make sure that they look up the advice that is available online from the Health and Safety Executive.

It requires some expertise to get the generators to the right place and set them up correctly. We have worked with NIE on that through COBRA and the UK Government. The UK Government can supply us with generators, and we understand that 30 additional generators will arrive today from Great Britain. That will be a help, but, from our discussions with NIE, it is clear that it wants to prioritise reconnections and deploy the engineers to do that. That means that we will need to source engineer hours elsewhere in order to support the safe installation of the generators. We tasked the head of the Civil Service with that this morning.

A COBRA 'O' meeting — an officials-level, UK-wide meeting — was scheduled for 11.00 am. We asked her to add to our ask and feed that request into the process to see whether we can get additional people who are able to support the roll-out of generators. That will be critical, particularly for the water issue but also in getting schools reopened and getting help and support to people.


1.00 pm

Mr Dickson: I thank the First Minister and deputy First Minister for the work that they were doing over the weekend. Of course, I associate myself with the remarks that have been made about those who were out on the ground in the teeth of the storm working hard.

What action are the First Minister and deputy First Minister taking on a public health message regarding the amount of food that is being declared useless in shops and stores and in people's homes?

Mrs O'Neill: I will have to check with our strategic contingency group about any messaging in that regard. To be blunt, I do not know whether there is any such messaging, but, obviously, you would want people to discard any food that is not safe to eat and not to make themselves ill. I will take that away as a point to see whether there is any messaging, but I am not aware of any at this point.

Mr Brett: I thank the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their update. Power companies in other parts of the United Kingdom have been clear that they will make goodwill payments to their customers. NIE makes huge profits on the back of people across Northern Ireland. To date, it has failed to confirm whether it will provide support to households that have had to throw away food, make travel arrangements or, indeed, check into hotels. Will the First Minister or deputy First Minister update the House on why NIE has not given the same commitment to customers in Northern Ireland that customers in other parts of the United Kingdom have been given?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. Many thousands of people will be keen to hear from NIE. We have made the proposal to NIE that it considers making a goodwill payment. I know that there had been talk of compensation, but, of course, there is a provision that energy companies do not have a legal requirement to pay out for something on this scale. That may or may not be the case when this is looked at.

The Member will understand that, over the weekend, our focus was very much on working with NIE, NI Water and other agencies to get reconnections and support for people. As we have moved through that, the issue of financial support has, of course, come up. Many people have lost the contents of their fridge or freezer, for example. Earlier, I made the point that this is possibly the worst week of the year for financial stress on families — few people have many funds left in the last week of January — so we know that there is a huge burden on families who are having to eat out, for example, because they cannot cook a meal at home.

We believe that it is the right thing for NIE Networks to step up and give a goodwill payment to support the people throughout Northern Ireland who have been suffering hardship without electricity. We know that it can do that. It is important that we talk to the Utility Regulator, but our understanding is that NIE can do that. Indeed, the Scottish energy companies have stepped up in Scotland. As a starter, we should look at the provision that they are giving to their customers — customers who have been impacted on by the same storm — and asking NIE Networks to step up, do the same and give that goodwill payment.

Mr McGlone: I associate myself with all the comments about the front-line workers and their support staff, who have been doing sterling work throughout this. What support will be provided by the Executive to assist the many people in critical care, who are often housebound and, in many instances, bed-bound? Could we have a date for the restoration of water supply for the upland areas? That raises many issues around not only domestic supply but animal welfare. Finally, what liaison has there been between the Executive and the internet companies on which many of us rely for communications as well as health, education and business services?

Mrs O'Neill: I cannot give a date for the water connection. All I can say is that we are working to push them to ensure that everybody is connected as quickly as possible. That is why we are looking at the provision of generators, for example, to try to get water connected to the last approximately 2,000 people who are still without water. I encourage all MLAs to use the NI Water contact to flag up any vulnerable people, particularly those who are medically dependent, if they are not already on the register or being supported, because we are trying to prioritise those people. Over the weekend, I dealt with at least one family, as, I am sure, most Members did, with somebody who was dependent on oxygen or getting a connection. It is a particularly challenging time. The Department of Health assures us that it is doing all that it can within its remit. NIE has a critical care line for anyone who is in any doubt about those issues.

I was taken aback at the weekend to learn that meter readers were going door to door in some cases. That is commendable, and it showed a bit of agility in how to adapt to a crisis. It is important that we reach the more vulnerable people as quickly as possible. We are in touch with all service providers and are trying to push them to restore services. We need to have people back on electricity, water and communications. We will continue to push all the service providers for quick restoration times.

Mr Delargy: I thank the Ministers for their answers so far. My question has already been answered in part, but I would be grateful if the Ministers were to provide more detail on the Executive's engagement with schools and, in particular, on how to communicate that to parents and families.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. The Education Minister has put out a number of statements about the ongoing situation. Two categories of schools are impacted. Well in excess of, I think, 150 schools were damaged in some way by the storm. However, only a small number of those were at risk of not opening. The Education Authority did a huge amount of work over the weekend to address the issues in the schools that could not open. A small number of those schools could not open today. I think that it was around seven schools.

A significant number of schools are impacted by a lack of electricity. That number is higher. By yesterday evening, around 80 schools were without electricity. That number has come down, and a number of those schools were able to open this morning. We are waiting for final numbers to come through. We have stressed that parents need to watch out for local information from the school. Look at the school's page and its alerts. Ultimately, electricity will be coming on in various areas throughout the day, and, as it does, those schools will be able to open. The Education Minister considered putting out that list last night, but he was conscious that schools would be connected overnight, some of which would be able to open. That certainly seems to have been the case.

We understand that, in all likelihood, between 50 and 60 schools were unable to open today due to a lack of electricity. That was one of the issues that we raised this morning when asking about generators. If we get information from NIE about which schools may not be able to open tomorrow or Wednesday, we can try to secure additional generators and get them sent to the right places so that our pupils can get back into the classroom and get the education that they deserve.

Mr Chambers: I record our appreciation of our Health and Social Care staff, who continued to provide a service during the storm.

Can the Minister clarify who has responsibility for putting in place signage to warn of a road that is closed because of a fallen tree? The response in that respect was slow in some instances; in fact, some blockages were left overnight without any signage in place, which resulted in the creation of road safety issues during the hours of darkness.

Mrs O'Neill: I assume that it comes under the Department of Infrastructure. As you will appreciate, it was an emerging situation. We had just come out of a red alert period, and it was not safe for staff to be out between 6.00 am and 2.00 pm. They then moved at pace to alert people. I imagine that it was imperfect, but the staff definitely went above and beyond. They tried their very best to respond as quickly as they could.

Mr Durkan: I thank the Ministers for their answers thus far. Do the Ministers believe that agencies here could and should have been better prepared? Given that the red weather warning in the South existed about 24 hours before the warning here was escalated to red, do they recognise the ridiculousness and the risk of having two separate weather warning systems on an island of this size? Will the Executive pursue an all-island weather warning and response system?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. By the way, I had not noticed that the Education Minister was in the Chamber when I had the audacity to answer the question about education. He advises me that my answer was accurate and that, in fact, tomorrow, potentially only one school will be unable to open due to damage and that there will be a further update at 4.00 pm about the situation with electricity for schools.

In answer to the Member's question, it is important to remember — I know this only because of Barra Best — that the systems, North and South, measure very different things. In Northern Ireland, we are part of the UK-wide system, and there is a different metric in the Republic of Ireland. Red does not mean the same thing in different areas. However, that does not mean that we do not take those things seriously. There was a red alert here, and the response, therefore, was from the PSNI. As I said, I am satisfied that we have been working hard, including with internal communications and coordination between all the agencies. There will always be certain differences, given that there is an international border between the two jurisdictions, but cooperation is key to making sure that, whatever happens, citizens are kept as safe as possible.

Mr McNulty: I pay tribute to the NIE front-line workers, council workers and those from all the other agencies who have bravely stepped up through the storm. Huge credit is due to my fellow politicians Pete Byrne and Thomas O'Hanlon for their responses on the ground in helping people, responding to issues and providing information. People from St Patrick's High School, Keady, who are in the Public Gallery, will know Thomas O'Hanlon.

First Ministers, as late as Thursday, the ridiculous situation ensued whereby there was a red weather warning in the South and an orange weather warning in the North. How did that affect preparedness for the storm? The National Emergency Co-ordination Group (NEGC) in the South was already ramped up and had taken action to take charge. Is there an equivalent in the North? If not, why not? How do families and businesses access the goodwill payment that you have proposed?

Mrs O'Neill: All our agencies worked together in advance of the red warning. All the preparatory work was in place. All our messaging and information was ramped up as soon as we were aware that there was going to be a red warning, which the Met Office confirmed early on Thursday morning. We were already working behind the scenes on preparedness. The operation that kicked in in the aftermath of the storm was so effective because of all the preparation and planning that was done.

There are always lessons to be learned, and we will have plenty of time to do that in the aftermath. For now, however, we are focused on restoring people's power and water and getting them the support that they need, particularly those who are more vulnerable.

Mr Gaston: On Friday, at approximately 7.30 am, a large tree fell on a car, blocking Craigs Road outside Cullybackey. Despite that incident being logged shortly after and several calls being made to DFI to warn it of the dangers and to request "Road Closed" signs, those signs appeared only when it was too late. Sadly, the signs were deployed only after a further accident, when a car hit the same tree at 8.00 pm, with a lady needing to be cut out of her car. Thankfully, no one was seriously hurt in either crash, but the outcome could quite easily have been different. In future, will DFI prioritise closing roads that are obstructed by fallen trees in order to protect users on the road network who are unaware?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. Some of the detail of that question might best be directed at the Infrastructure Minister. There was an unprecedented level of, I believe, some 2,800 reported obstructions across the network. Some of those involved multiple trees and other things that had been felled. I understand from our briefings that a triaging system was in place for the removal of those obstructions, which were mainly trees, from the main routes and for trying to get out to assess the damage.

We do not have a huge amount of capacity sitting there waiting for a big event such as this to happen. Therefore, when such things do happen, capacity is stretched. You need to ensure the safety of citizens first, and that is why those roads ought to have been closed and why signs ought to have been put out. I suspect that that did not happen because people were trying to get out to do the same thing in so many areas. We also had a lot of cables come down. As indicated, those are particularly dangerous. If anybody were to touch those trees or cables or try to remove them, there would be a serious risk to life, so those were triaged and prioritised.

I suggest that the Member write to or contact the Infrastructure Minister about the particular circumstances of that case. We want to ensure that obstructions do not cause risk to life, and we will continue to work on that over the next number of hours.


1.15 pm

Mr Carroll: I thank the front-line workers and community volunteers for the work that they have done over the past few days.

Presumably, First Minister, there was a plan in place to deal with the storm. Will that be released for people to scrutinise? I presume that there is a TEO team that works to respond to extreme weather events. If so, how many people work in that team and how often does it meet? Can you give us some further detail on that? Unfortunately, given the heating up of the planet, this is probably not going to be the last weather crisis that we will see in the next few years.

Mrs O'Neill: We can all accept that these events that we call "unprecedented" will happen more often, so we have to be able to respond and we have to meet the evolving situation. We have tried-and-tested civil contingency arrangements here. I imagine that they have already been published, but I am happy to share them with you if they have not been. There are structures that kick in, and those structures worked over the weekend. It was very clear to me in all our multi-agency meetings that we could see everybody getting down to business. Not only did every individual carry out their role but they were coordinating and talking across each other, which was very important to the response. I commend the civil contingencies group for its work thus far.

We are not there yet and we still have a bit of road to travel to get people connected, but I am fairly certain that if we carry on in that vein, we will, hopefully, have people connected as quickly as possible. There are going to be difficulties towards the end, particularly for those people who are without power connections. NIE has told us that the speed that we have seen over the past four days will not continue into the next four days. All that I can say to everybody is that the Executive, and Emma and I, have been pushing NIE extremely hard to ensure that everything that can be done will be done.

Ms Sugden: I thank the Northern Ireland Executive for their response since Thursday, because that has, ultimately, saved many lives. What impact has the storm had on the hospitals? We are hearing that people who did not have access to medical equipment were being admitted and, indeed, people who were in hospital were probably not able to be discharged, given the fact that domiciliary care was not effective. Is that already putting a more significant pressure on a system that is, in itself, under pressure?

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for her important question. As I indicated earlier, there is a vulnerable persons' cell, which is coordinating work as part of the civil contingencies approach. That is carried out by way of a number of different measures. In particular, NIE has been dealing with what it calls its "vulnerable list". It has been contacting those people by phone and has visited some of them with hot water and food and to check their welfare. Many of NIE's meter readers have been doing that, which has been important, and I thank them for it. That is not something that has had a lot of visibility, but I have no doubt that it means a lot to those vulnerable people.

In addition, the trusts have been dealing with about 800 vulnerable people. Initially, there was huge concern for those with medical equipment, for example. Much of that equipment runs on battery packs as opposed to mains electricity, but the battery packs require to be recharged using electricity. There is a lot of concern about that, which is why the situation is being monitored by the trusts. There was a multi-agency approach to that, in order to make sure that as many of those people as possible were supported.

We are very aware, however, that there will be many people who are not on a formal vulnerable list but who are, nevertheless, vulnerable. That could include older people who are sitting in a cold home with no electricity and no way of contacting people, or people with a variety of illnesses who may not be able to get into a car to go and get help and support. That is why we are asking for local information. Some of that has come through, and there are people who are in their 80s and 90s, who are isolated, cold and without electricity and the ability even to make themselves a cup of tea. We are appealing to neighbours and friends in local communities, as well as the local churches, to identify those people. If you have not seen your neighbour or heard from them, please check in on them and signpost them to the support and help that is there. We will try our best to get those people food, blankets and help and support until we can get those reconnections made.

Mr McCrossan: I thank the First Ministers for being with us in the House. I also want to thank front-line workers and those who played their part and assisted people in our communities, including the community workers and the Red Cross, which played a vital role, particularly in my constituency.

Right now, First Ministers, as we sit here and talk about the impact of the storm, people are freezing in their homes and are without heat and electricity, as has been said. Some are without water and some are hungry. This is day 4, and people cannot survive in those conditions for a prolonged period. What is being done today by the Executive to provide intervention, financial or otherwise, by means of accommodation that is suitable for those people to ensure that they are safe?

Mrs O'Neill: We are acutely aware of the significant impact that the storm is having on all households, particularly people who are still to be connected. I have set out for the House everything that is being done, not least the fact that the multi-agency approach continues, we are very much moving into recovery mode, we are prioritising those who are more vulnerable and we are doing everything that we can to ensure that people are connected as quickly as possible. We are leaving no stone unturned in seeking additional support, whether that be in the form of engineers, helicopters — we have secured the use of four to help NIE with its work — or batteries. We are doing absolutely everything that we can to get in every single resource that we can. The Executive's shared objective has been to get people connected. The Executive met again this morning and got a read-out from every Department and Minister on their area of responsibility. This is very much a joined-up and collective effort, and every single Department is doing its best to assist people. We all want to get to the same point, folks, and we all have the same objective, which is to get people reconnected and back to their normal lives.

Mr McGrath: I echo the thanks expressed to front-line staff and NIE. However, I would like to add that, in the early hours of the storm, an army of domiciliary care workers went out in that weather to try to help vulnerable people. They did not shirk from their responsibility. They should also be acknowledged and thanked.

In the health service, will those who had to give up appointments on Friday, because hospital services were withdrawn, be prioritised so that they can get their appointments as soon as possible? For some of them, that will be a worrying wait.

Mrs Little-Pengelly: I thank the Member for his question. It is an important one, because many of those people will have waited for some considerable time — too long. We know that it is too long, and we have tackling waiting lists as a priority in the draft Programme for Government. You can only imagine how disappointing it is for somebody who has waited for months, possibly even years, only to have their appointment cancelled. I can give you only the information that we are advised about, because this is, rightly, a matter for the Department of Health and the relevant Minister. However, we are advised that hospitals have been working hard to reschedule those appointments by using every available appointment. You can understand that it may not be this week, but they are endeavouring to get people rebooked appointments as soon as possible. It is not the case that they go to the end of the list. Hospitals have been working away and contacting people. For anybody who has had an appointment cancelled and not heard about being rebooked, please let your local MLA or the system know, and we will get on to that. However, the trusts have advised us that they have been reaching out over the past few days and rescheduling those appointments.

Mr Speaker: I do not think that any other Members wish to ask a question, so I thank the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their contribution. We will move on to the next item of business in the Order Paper. I ask Members to take their ease while we change the Chair.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Dr Aiken] in the Chair)

Private Members' Business

Ms Mulholland: I beg to move:

That this Assembly expresses grave alarm that the number of emergency food parcels distributed by Trussell food banks to children in Northern Ireland increased by 90% during the past five years; is further alarmed that the proportion of emergency food parcels provided to children is higher in Northern Ireland than any other part of the UK; is concerned by the recent report on child poverty from the Public Accounts Committee, which found that delivery of the child poverty strategy has been characterised by failure; recognises that an adequate standard of living is essential for children’s physical, social and developmental needs; calls on the Minister for Communities to urgently publish the new anti-poverty strategy; and further calls on the Minister to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to create a progressive social security system that better supports families with children.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Dr Aiken): The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. An amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List, so the Business Committee has agreed that 15 minutes will be added to the total time for the debate.

Members may be aware that proceedings have been issued in the High Court on the failure to publish an anti-poverty strategy. The matter is therefore now sub judice. Members should take care to respect the distinct roles of the courts and the Assembly when commenting on the active legal proceedings.

Ms Mulholland: I rise not out of duty but out of a profound sense of sadness and quite a lot of anger that, in 2025, children in Northern Ireland still rely on food banks to survive; that 62,000 children face hunger in Northern Ireland; that the number of emergency food parcels distributed to children has increased by 90% in the past five years; and that we continue to accept that as inevitable, with child poverty still not being treated as an outright priority by today's Department for Communities or any previous one.

What frightens me more is that individuals mask their poverty, making the true scale of need almost impossible to measure. Those people remain on the periphery, ashamed to seek help, and fall deeper into poverty as a result. Last week, I had the privilege — I use that word cautiously — to visit the food bank in Ballycastle. The work that Ashley and her team do there is nothing short of heroic — saving lives; providing warmth and sustenance; signposting people to vital services — and is done without fanfare and often without the resources that they so desperately need and risking people avoiding them in the street lest anyone, God forbid, would know that they avail themselves of the food bank's services. The food bank in Lisburn has distributed 461 tons of food, which equates to almost 1·1 million meals. It has fed one in six children in Lisburn and supported one in 10 single-parent families since its opening in 2013. Foyle Foodbank has seen a 161% increase in demand, with 9,000 people, including 4,000 children, having been given household essentials in the past year.

Let me be clear: it is shameful that those places even need to exist in our society. I walked in there not happy, smiling and delighted to see everybody but with a profound and conflicted sense of shame and anger that the political system of which I am part has allowed that to happen. We in the Chamber should not offer congratulations to food banks on their existence. We need to offer solutions to end their necessity. As someone at our round-table discussion this morning told me, food banks used to be an emergency lifeline but are now part of everyday life.

The people of Ballycastle and from communities across Northern Ireland are asking not for handouts but for dignity, stability and fairness. They are asking for change, and it is our duty to provide it. Why is a child in Ballycastle more likely to visit a food bank than a child who lives in Scotland, just 12 miles away across the North Channel? Is it because parents in Ballycastle work less hard or care less about their children? Of course not. It is because Scotland's leaders made a political choice to tackle child poverty head-on. The Child Poverty (Scotland) Act 2017 introduced legally binding targets to reduce child poverty. Policies such as the Scottish child payment and universal free school meals directly lift children out of poverty. Those were not just policies but commitments backed by funding and measurable outcomes. In Northern Ireland, we have made the opposite choice: to delay, to deflect and to deny the scale of the crisis. Scotland's child payment alone has reduced child poverty by five percentage points.

The comparison with Scotland demonstrates that political will backed by ambitious targets can make a tangible difference. Since 2006, when the anti-poverty strategy was first promised, we seem to have done nothing but tumble down a road of delay. In Northern Ireland, there are children relying on food banks who were not even born when the commitment was made for the first anti-poverty strategy. The Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report could not have been clearer when it stated that the child poverty strategy that we had from 2016 to 2022 was characterised by failure: a failure to monitor outcomes, to ring-fence funding, to prioritise prevention and to utilise the Children's Services Co-Operation Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. It was a failure to deliver.

When we took action through temporary cost-of-living payments, such as the £301 payment in spring 2023, food bank usage temporarily fell by 17%, but demand rebounded within weeks. That highlights the inadequacy of short-term fixes in addressing long-term issues.


1.30 pm

Whilst I welcome the extension of the welfare mitigations to March 2028, those measures alone are insufficient to protect vulnerable families. The full impact of the two-child limit is yet to unfold, as it impacts only on children born after 2017. If our policies fail to adapt, the benefits of welfare mitigation will erode well before 2028. Implementing the recommendations of Les Allamby's independent review on welfare mitigations is not optional; it is essential to strengthening protections and preventing further poverty. The cost of long-term inaction is staggering. Beyond the devastating impact on children and families, it costs the Executive up to £1 billion annually. That is an unsustainable financial burden in today's economic climate, particularly when effective preventative measures could dramatically reduce those costs over time.

The root causes of food poverty cannot be ignored. Inadequate social security policies, such as the aforementioned two-child limit, disproportionately affect larger families and drive thousands into poverty. The five-week wait forces people to go to illegal moneylenders. During our round-table, I heard from one organisation about a young mother who had her windows put in last week because she could not afford to pay the interest on a loan that she had received from a paramilitary lender. She is the second mother that that organisation has dealt with in recent months. Cuts and freezes to social security since 2010, low wages, insecure work, a lack of social housing and inadequate childcare provision all further trap families in a cycle of poverty. We know that this is not an easy problem to fix, but the solutions are there.

Low wages and insecure work also exacerbate food poverty. One in four food bank users in Northern Ireland come from working households, and, while it is easy to have the view, "People just need to get a job; they are just on benefits, using food banks", the reality is that paid work is no longer a guaranteed route out of poverty. This morning, Rebecca told me that the more she worked, the worse off she was. Another cause of poverty is political instability and the ability of parties to collapse the very institutions that should be working to protect our most vulnerable. We have to reform our institutions to ensure that they remain functional and continue to deliver.

As I said, this morning I met parents who are food bank users and representatives of organisations that have been delivering on the ground. I want to hold space in the Chamber for their words, because it is our duty not just to parrot statistics and high-level policy positions but to amplify the voices of those who rely on the House to represent their needs. Comments included that we need to change the conversation; have a rights-based, child-centred approach; and address the right to have food and the right not to be hungry. One person said:

"Gas is a luxury. 'Eating or heating' isn't a sound bite; it's my reality. My reality is that I went without food so my kids could eat. The impact can't be hidden from my children. They don't want to have their own children, in case they have to live in poverty like they did".

Another said:

"My daughter now has OCD and other mental health issues in terms of spending money or having money".

Another said:

"I have to explain to a four-year-old that mummy just doesn't have the money for what she wants".

Another said:

"The more I worked, the worse off I was".

Another said:

"It's not just about the financial poverty; it's about the courage I have to have to have to even walk in and ask for help".

Those who work in some of the organisations say that there is only so much that they can do. They say, "The poor keep getting poorer", "The system is broken", "Universal credit isn't working" and:

"Minimum wage isn't the living wage".

They also say:

"Food banks used to be that emergency lifeline and now they're part of everyday life".

And:

"This is more than just about food; it is about every single element of my daily life".

It goes on.

We are at a tipping point. Without immediate action, children in Northern Ireland will continue to suffer: some may even lose their lives as a result of our collective failures. It is not governance; it is negligence. We must all act with urgency and purpose to tackle child poverty. That begins with publishing and implementing a robust anti-poverty strategy, which we are due. That strategy will have to have measurable targets and ring-fenced funding, otherwise it will be simply another strategy. We have to lobby Westminster to reform the welfare system by removing the two-child limit and introducing an essentials guarantee for universal credit to ensure that it meets even the most basic living costs. Affordable childcare must be delivered so that parents can access secure and well-paid jobs. We need to tackle in-work poverty by raising wages and improving job security. Political reform is equally necessary to ensure that our institutions function effectively and deliver services. By fully implementing Les Allamby's recommendations on welfare mitigations, collaborating with community organisations and setting ambitious, legally binding targets like those in Scotland, we can begin to create a society in which every child has a fair chance to live.

I conclude where I began. Ashley at Ballycastle Foodbank shared with me a simple but profound reflection:

"Our users want empathy, not sympathy, and structural solutions that provide a hand up, not a handout."

Empathy, solutions and a hand up are the three pillars on which we must rebuild our approach to tackling child poverty to ensure that children and families can break free from the cycle of hardship.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Dr Aiken): Thank you, Sian. I call Brian Kingston to move the amendment.

Mr Kingston: I beg to move the following amendment:

Leave out all after "developmental needs;" and insert:

"welcomes the commitment of the Minister for Communities to delivering a new anti-poverty strategy; calls on the Minister to urgently bring that draft strategy to the Executive for consideration, with view to launching a public consultation on the proposals; and further calls on the Minister to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to create a progressive social security system that better supports families with children"

Mr Deputy Speaker (Dr Aiken): Thank you. You have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other members who speak will have five minutes. Over to you, Brian.

Mr Kingston: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Alliance Party for tabling the motion on this important matter, and I hope that the Assembly will accept our amendment, which captures current progress on the updated anti-poverty strategy.

The Democratic Unionist Party continues to stand by families across Northern Ireland, many of whom are feeling the financial squeeze, with soaring costs for basic goods such as food and utilities. That is evidenced by the stark statistics provided by the Trussell Trust. There has been a 143% increase in emergency parcels distributed over the past five years. In 2023-24, almost 61,000 parcels were distributed for children. Those of us who interact with the public in our constituency offices see all too often, sadly, the daily struggles that people face. In many cases, that need for support is being met by community, voluntary and faith-based groups, which do amazing work in our communities.

Childcare is one example of a financial burden for working families. The DUP designed a subsidy scheme and slashed childcare bills by 15%, saving working parents up to £160 per month. That is DUP delivery. In under four months, £4 million has been issued in support of families with young children.

We have seen the successful roll-out of the social supermarket scheme. That was co-designed with councils to assist those facing food poverty. The social supermarket provides wrap-around services to help address the underlying issues contributing to a household's financial position. The models evolve and develop in recognition of level of need and the geographic area.

DUP elected representatives got involved in politics because they care about this place. We care about its people, and we want to see Northern Ireland thriving. We have a strong record of delivery for working people, and we are committed to ensuring that each child gets the best start in life. Since taking up the role of Minister for Communities, Gordon Lyons and his officials have been working with other Departments to learn from the actions and the failings of previous leadership in this area.

The Public Accounts Committee report on child poverty in Northern Ireland reported that the delivery of the last child poverty strategy was characterised by failure. The report found that there was a failure to take ownership, to implement effective monitoring arrangements and to engage with children and the community and voluntary sector and that the strategy failed to turn the curve and reduce child poverty.

The DUP is ready to lead a step change in approach. Tackling poverty, including child poverty, is a cross-cutting issue and, therefore, an Executive-wide responsibility. However, that should be a catalyst for good and for real change, not for paralysis and inaction, as has often been the case.

We all know the importance of getting a new anti-poverty strategy right. The challenge that poverty presents to households across Northern Ireland is huge. There is a heavy burden on many hard-working people who are struggling to make ends meet. Almost one in four children now lives in relative poverty. Around 9% of children in Northern Ireland live in low-income households that cannot afford basic goods and essential activities. There is a clear challenge ahead. The economic uncertainty coming from the Labour Budget is unsettling for many, especially those on lower incomes, with fear of job losses to come due to the impact of National Insurance changes on business.

There are many aspects to poverty, including housing, health and education. It is really important to help people to get into work. That is one of the greatest barriers that people face to getting out of poverty. The Labour Party's policies will not help to grow the economy or alleviate poverty. The Communities Minister has been working alongside a range of stakeholders, experts and service providers on the development of an overarching anti-poverty strategy to address the risks and impacts of poverty, including child poverty. Given the criticism that:

"the Department appeared to be too far removed from children and families experiencing poverty",

it is vital that the new strategy go out for public consultation and people have their say. That is the purpose of our amendment. A strategy could be quickly developed and published, but what would the outcome be, if we did not take the time to learn from the past? How would that serve the people whom we are here to represent? The report laid bare the fact that we must focus on tangible delivery. We, as an Assembly, cannot have strategies and schemes that are simply words on a page; real progress must be made.

I commend the amendment to the Assembly.

Mr Gildernew: I start by thanking Sian and the other Members who tabled today's motion. It is hard to imagine that, in 2025, there are still people without enough food to eat, but, unfortunately, that is the reality for so many families in our society. Food insecurity is defined as a lack of:

"regular access to enough safe and nutritious food for normal growth and development and an active and healthy life."

When a parent lacks the resources to obtain enough food for themselves and their family, they often face choices that no parent should be forced to make, such as choosing to skip a meal or reduce portion sizes so that others might have enough to eat. Research carried out by Trussell found that, over a 12-month period, one in six adults in the North had experienced some form of food insecurity, which is the highest level in recent times. Consequently, we have seen a huge rise in the number of people availing themselves of food banks, with a 143% increase in food bank usage over the past five years, including a 90% increase for children. I encourage the Minister to engage actively with Trussell, Barnardo's, the Cliff Edge Coalition and all of the groups that are so aware of the difficulties and, indeed, the solutions.

While food banks are an important safety net in ensuring that people have enough to eat, their existence points to a failure of the economic and social security systems here to meet people's basic needs. It is our job as legislators to understand why so many people rely on food banks and to fix the problems at their root cause, which is poverty. The poverty and income inequality report published in March last year showed that roughly 18% of people in the North were living in relative poverty, which was up from 16% in the previous year. The figures pertaining to child poverty are even more concerning, with 24% of children living in relative poverty, which is up from 18% in the previous year. The COVID pandemic, together with the cost-of-living crisis, has had a major impact on the levels of poverty and deprivation in our society. The inflationary price increases on essential items such as food, fuel and electricity and other items such as car and home insurance, which have been driven partly by British Government policies, have pushed record numbers of people into financial hardship.

The Good Friday Agreement gave a commitment that the Executive would produce an anti-poverty strategy to tackle the growing prevalence of poverty in our society. Unfortunately, 26 years on, we still wait for that strategy, and it is clear that the need has never been greater. While I welcome the work that has been done to date, there must be no further delay in the publication of that strategy. I once again call on the Minister for Communities to urgently publish the anti-poverty strategy.

As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I participated in the recent inquiry into child poverty, the findings of which were extremely stark.

Child poverty levels remain stubbornly high, with previous strategies failing to make any meaningful impact. Children living in poverty are more likely to have poorer outcomes in later life when it comes to physical and mental health, educational attainment and economic opportunities. Tory austerity, particularly policies such as the two-child limit, must shoulder much of the blame for where we are today with child poverty.


1.45 pm

The anti-poverty strategy must be accompanied by a comprehensive and fully costed implementation plan with clear targets and outcomes to reduce poverty across our society, particularly among children. It must focus on fixing the root causes of poverty, including low income, educational attainment, disability, gender, ethnicity and addiction. Finally, it must also contain achievable targets and outcomes that are quantitative, qualitative and time-bound to properly measure performance and demonstrate and track the impact of strategic actions.

I am happy to support the motion, and I look forward to the debate in the House today.

Mr Allen: I, too, thank the proposers for tabling this important motion. Today, we are confronted with the grim reality that, over the past five years, the number of emergency food parcels distributed by Trussell Trust food banks to children in Northern Ireland has risen by 90%. That is a staggering and shameful figure. Worse still, the number of food parcels provided to children here is proportionately higher than that in any other region of the United Kingdom. Those numbers tell us something that we cannot ignore: we need to do more. Child poverty is not just a statistic; it is a daily struggle for families who must choose between heating their home or feeding their children. Some do not even have that choice.

Regularly, my office, like so many others, is approached by individuals and families in desperate need of support for the basic essentials of food, electricity and heating. Far too often, it is the third sector that steps in to provide that critical assistance. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the wide range of organisations, such as the Trussell Trust, National Energy Action and the Bryson Charitable Group, that work tirelessly, day and night, to support households. Their dedication and compassion is a lifeline for so many in our communities.

Many households are unable to keep their homes warm, especially during the winter months. For children, cold homes mean more than discomfort; they mean higher risk of respiratory illness, poor educational outcomes and emotional stress. Equally, far too many find themselves heating their homes only for the heat to escape through poorly insulated cavity walls, which is another area on which we need to do more. One action to support households and improve energy efficiency could be for the Department for the Economy to supplement the Northern Ireland sustainable energy programme, which I have already raised with the Minister. Meanwhile, the soaring costs of food and essentials have left too many parents having to make impossible choices. That is not a sustainable or acceptable reality.

Short-term relief is crucial, but we must think beyond emergency measures. We need a coordinated, multi-tiered approach to tackle poverty at its roots. The response must be immediate, strategic and long term. There must be three pillars to the approach. It must be short-term focused because families need immediate financial support, as I already highlighted. An enhanced fuel allowance and emergency food grants can provide a lifeline, and, as has already been outlined, those have been provided by so many organisations. In the medium term, as we have already heard, reforming the social security system is essential. We must work with the Department for Work and Pensions to design support that truly meets the needs of families, whether through increased child benefits, free school meals or affordable childcare, with the latter two being within the scope of the Executive. In the long term, addressing poverty requires investment in education, housing and jobs. Economic development must focus on creating opportunities so that families can build secure, sustainable futures.

We can draw inspiration from other nations. In Norway and Sweden, for example, robust child benefit systems and subsidised childcare have drastically reduced child poverty. Canada's child benefit system has lifted hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty with targeted direct financial support. New Zealand's well-being budget prioritises measurable social outcomes, targeting investment to where it will have the greatest impact. Those examples prove that, with the right policies, poverty can be reduced and even eradicated. The amendment acknowledges the commitment of the Minister for Communities to a new anti-poverty strategy. That is a step forward, but we cannot delay. We need the strategy to be brought to the Executive, published and opened for public consultation. While we can learn from worldwide examples, as I have highlighted, we must also implement learning from our own experiences, such as the findings in the recently published Public Accounts Committee 'Report on Child Poverty in Northern Ireland.'

We cannot stand idly by while families suffer. Poverty is not inevitable. It is a challenge that can be overcome with the right policies, the right investment and the right will. We must act swiftly and decisively to ensure that no child in Northern Ireland grows up hungry, cold or without hope. Let us not just discuss poverty. Let us end it.

Mr Durkan: I am disappointed that we are still here debating the same issue of food insecurity and poverty. In September, Executive parties stood in the Chamber lamenting rising child poverty. Last year, the same parties vowed to tackle holiday hunger and reduce dependency on food banks. What has been done and what has changed? If a Government are to be judged on how they treat their most vulnerable citizens, surely the fact that one in five children lives in relative poverty — rising to one in four in areas of high deprivation — is a damning indictment of their leadership.

Every Member who has spoken has referred to statistical increases in just about every area that we do not want to see them in. Those figures are even more striking in areas of high deprivation and in communities, like my constituency, where families feel the pain of political failure the most. Behind those figures are families — starving and freezing families. How is that being allowed to happen? Poverty is a reality for far too many families and it is exacerbated here because the leadership parties have, in the not-too-distant past, put short-term political popularity over doing what is right for the people whom they purport to represent. As of 2023, 109,000 children were deprived of the basic necessities. To those who have held these institutions to ransom and prevented action for five out of the past eight years, you should be ashamed of the Dickensian conditions that your actions have compounded.

Understanding why child poverty exists here is not a difficult equation. The child poverty strategy ended in 2022 in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis and an economy reeling in a post-pandemic landscape. The strategy was a bit of an empty vessel. It made a lot of noise but did not hold a wild pile of substance. There were no clear targets, no prevention or early intervention and no understanding or appreciation of cross-cutting responsibilities. We have been denied an anti-poverty strategy for two decades. The previous Communities Minister gave assurances that it would be implemented within the previous mandate. I appreciate that we have been told that it is now ready to go. I fear that it might be coming just a bit late in the day, but better late than never. Where is the sense of urgency? The lackadaisical approach to date is an insult.

I know that we are talking about child poverty here today, but when I talk about a lack of urgency, I want to draw attention to the lack of urgency around older people and fuel poverty. It has just been revealed to me today in an answer from the Minister that, to date, not one penny of the much-heralded £100 winter fuel support payment has been paid out. If that does not exemplify a lack of urgency, I do not know what does. The two-child policy, as others have said, is inflicted on tens of thousands of households here, and we will see that bite more acutely as more people move to universal credit. Of claimants here, 42% are either behind on bills and credit payments or find it a constant struggle to keep up. Yet, the Minister has no plans to address the debt-inducing five-week wait for universal credit. The proposer of the motion, quite rightly, identified the role that that is actually playing in driving people towards unscrupulous, illegal and immoral moneylenders. Families are no longer just about managing. Under callous Tory policy, compounded by Executive absence and apathy, they are working on the breadline. It will take a long time and a real commitment to undo that damage. Certainly, the Labour Party has not got off to a good start in doing so.

It is important that, as an Assembly, we look at what we can do here to protect our citizens and at what we can do to influence and improve policy in that other place and how it impacts on our most vulnerable citizens. My party will support the motion and, indeed, the amendment. We will support any initiatives that come from the Minister and the Executive to tackle the rising scourge of poverty across our communities.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Dr Aiken): Thank you, Mark.

Ladies and gentlemen, as Question Time begins at 2.00 pm, I suggest that the Assembly take its ease until then. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Ciara Ferguson. Thank you. Take your ease.

The debate stood suspended.


2.00 pm

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions

Infrastructure

Mr O'Dowd (The Minister for Infrastructure): The eastern transport plan is one of eight local transport plans that my Department is developing in parallel with each council's local development plan (LDP) process. The eastern transport plan is the largest of the local plans and covers the five councils of Antrim and Newtownabbey, Ards and North Down, Belfast City, Lisburn and Castlereagh, and Mid and East Antrim. It will set the framework for those councils to make transport policy and investment decisions until 2035 and aims to ensure that the transport network meets the needs of people and businesses living and working in and visiting the eastern transport plan area.

We are facing an uncertain future, and we need to make radical changes that address issues arising from the environmental emergency and other societal problems that are related to our historical over-reliance and dependency on fossil fuels and the private car. The eastern transport plan uses a vision-and-validate approach that will consider the wider societal challenges that we face, generate a vision for the area and identify transport measures that will help us achieve that vision. That approach and vision are very much aligned with the core objective of my Department to promote and create cleaner and greener connections by achieving measurable increases in sustainable travel.

My Department undertook a public engagement exercise to introduce the vision and objectives of the plan to stakeholders and the general public. The level of engagement was high, with over 500 responses and broad agreement from the respondents on the vision and objectives. Owing to the five councils being at different stages in their local development plan, the eastern transport plan will be published in iterations. The Belfast City Council plan is the most advanced, so the first iteration will cover its transport plan. My officials are undertaking a public engagement exercise with key stakeholders on the draft proposals for the Belfast City Council plan.

Visioning has commenced for the remainder of the eastern transport plan area, and transport plans will follow when each of the remaining councils' LDP is sufficiently advanced. My officials are working closely with the councils and stakeholders on the progress of the entire plan.

Ms Egan: Thank you, Minister. It is welcome to hear that the eastern transport plan aims to move towards more sustainable modes of travel. How is that in line with your Department's launching of a consultation on allowing even more taxis in bus lanes, however?

Mr O'Dowd: Taxis form part of the public transport network, and taxi services are the part of that network that allows customers to travel from door to door. We have opened up the transport links in and around Grand Central station in particular, so it is important that we ensure that part of our public transport system is allowed in bus lanes in order to deliver people to the new transport hub, which is Grand Central station.

Mr Boylan: Minister, what steps is your Department taking to improve active travel?

Mr O'Dowd: My Department is undertaking a consultation on the active travel delivery plan. I encourage Members and members of the public to engage with it. A number of public events are taking place, and there is an opportunity for members of the public and elected representatives to respond online. Members know their local area better than anyone. They will therefore know what connections are required in order to ensure that people can use active travel options, whether that means people travelling into their town or village centre or to their local school or their being connected to public transport networks that will allow them to complete longer journeys.

Mr Gaston: The Minister has talked about the eastern transport plan. I am concerned that large swathes of land in the Ballymena area that are zoned for new roads will never see those roads be built. Has the Department given any consideration to doing away with the proposals in order to allow the land to be released for local regeneration projects?

Mr O'Dowd: It is important that the Department work in tandem with councils on their local development plans so that we recognise councils' plans for development in their area and so that councils know what the Department's plans are through the eastern transport plan. The transport plan, when published, will take into account the plans of councils. There will, obviously, be public consultation, and a final plan will then be published, which will allow councils to release land for further development, if needs be.

Mr O'Dowd: Following Executive agreement on 2 October 2024, I announced my decision to proceed with the length of this vital flagship scheme that runs between the south of Strabane and Ballygawley, which is 55 kilometres of its 85 kilometre total. On 13 November, the Department received a formal legal challenge to my decision. No further challenges have been received at this stage. Work is ongoing with my departmental officials and legal team to prepare evidence to robustly defend the challenge. The court has fixed a timetable for the preparation of the case, which will lead to a substantive hearing on 3 March 2025, with an expected time frame of five days.

On 25 November 2024, the vesting orders became operative, and ownership of the lands necessary for the construction of that length of the road was transferred to my Department. The legal challenge did not affect that transfer of ownership. While there is no defined time frame for the handing down of the court's decision following the hearing in early March, the court has previously indicated the importance of getting the case dealt with as quickly as possible.

Mr McAleer: I thank the Minister for his response. Minister, will you outline the level of engagement that there is with the road authorities in the South, particularly on the link between the new A5 and the N2 in Monaghan and the N14 in Letterkenny, Donegal?

Mr O'Dowd: We have worked very closely with the Department of Transport in Dublin throughout the project and engaged with it on a number of matters. It is vital that we work not only with the Department of Transport but with the relevant councils on how the road networks link up. That work is at an advanced stage, and it is part of the work stream of the North/South Ministerial Council. I am confident that we are fully and properly engaged on the matter, and both jurisdictions, and the relevant bodies within them, are aware of each other's plans.

Mr McCrossan: I thank the Minister for the update on this all-important project. The Minister and his Department are working to see the road fully developed. We await the court case that is due in March. I attended the initial hearing. Will the Minister tell us what power or influence he has to ensure that his Department objects to any request by the objectors for their costs to be capped because there has been no cap on the cost to the taxpayer when it comes to the cost of the project, which has spiralled beyond all recognition?

Mr O'Dowd: I will clarify the matter in writing if I am incorrect, but my understanding is that, under the terms of the court case, there is a cap on the costs because of the nature of the legislation under which the objection has been lodged. It is outside my remit or powers, or indeed my legal team's powers and the powers of the court, to overturn that.

Mr K Buchanan: Farmers and landowners will be put under pressure by the figure that they might receive for compensation. I understand that they are not to be better off, but they will definitely be worse off because they cannot replace the land that has been taken from them. Obviously, the price of land will go up because everybody will try to replace the land that they have lost. What do you say to local landowners?

Mr O'Dowd: All local landowners whose land has been vested will have received communications from my Department on how the process will develop from this point onwards. They will be advised to obtain the services of a land agent, who will be suitably qualified to negotiate and engage with the Department on their behalf under their instruction. I assure the Member that my Department is fully open to those discussions and engagement. The ultimate cost or price of the land will be down to Land and Property Services, and there has been significant engagement between the departmental officials and landowners up to this stage. However, I encourage landowners to engage and work through the process, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that everyone is treated fairly.

Mr Speaker: Questions 3 and 4 have been withdrawn.

Mr O'Dowd: According to my notes, question 5 has been withdrawn.

Mr Speaker: Mrs Erskine is very much here.

Mrs Erskine: I know. [Laughter.]

Mr O'Dowd: She is. My apologies. Will the Member give me a clue as to what question 5 asks?

Mrs Erskine: No problem at all, Minister. The question is:

"To ask the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on when details will be provided on the review of the prioritisation of the major roads programme."

Mr O'Dowd: I thank the Member for her assistance in that matter. Cooperation across the Floor is always very helpful.

I hope to be in a position in the next number of short weeks to make a formal announcement to the Assembly on which projects we will move forward. It has taken slightly longer than I hoped, but, when dealing with hundreds of millions of pounds of public funds, I want to make sure that I invest that money in a manner that is as future-proofed as possible and is of benefit to the public purse.

I am also conscious that, in relation to the various transport plans and strategies that have been discussed, including in this Question Time, I am working with information that is as up to date as possible. However, I assure the Member that I hope to be before the Chamber in the next number of weeks making a formal announcement about which major projects will move ahead at this stage.

Mrs Erskine: I thank the Minister. I record my thanks to DFI staff for their work over the weekend. It seems a bit crass to be talking about the major roads programme when we see the destruction that is across even rural roads in the likes of my constituency.

It may seem strange that I am not advocating just for my constituency today; I want to ask about the York Street interchange and to check whether that will be part of the major roads programme. We talk quite a bit in the Chamber about congestion, and that is one of the measures that could alleviate it. We saw £400 million secured by the DUP confidence-and-supply agreement, and that project is part of New Decade, New Approach. Will that project be included in the prioritisation programme?

Mr O'Dowd: I thank the Member for her question. I add my gratitude to all DFI, NI Water and Translink staff, who performed humongous tasks over the weekend and continue to do so today to bring public services back online.

York Street interchange is a central part of my deliberations on major projects and how we move that forward. It is a considerable investment but a necessary one for all the reasons that the Member has pointed out. It could also be a major economic driver for this place, if we can secure the project's future. I assure the Member that it is part of my deliberations, and I am looking at how we deliver it.

Mr McNulty: When does the Minister intend to engage his counterparts in the Republic of Ireland, since the formation of the new Government, in his aspirations to encourage more people off roads and onto public transport and with regard to the delivery of the all-island rail review and other cross-border infrastructure projects? When will he align rail fares so that people in the North do not have to pay more for shorter journeys?

Mr O'Dowd: I have constantly engaged with representatives of the Dublin Government about the all-island rail review and how we get connectivity across the island. That is ongoing work in my Department and through the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) sectoral meetings. I will engage with the new Administration on that basis. I hope that funding, whether through the UK connectivity review or the all-island funding that is offered through the Taoiseach's office, will assist us in delivering real, meaningful change and programmes on that.

I continue to explore how I can provide the funding necessary to ensure that we encourage more people on to public transport and to reduce fares and align them as much as we can across the island. It is worth noting that, in October-November 2024, there were 400,000 more journeys on public transport than in the previous year. We are having success, but we cannot become complacent, and we have to keep driving forward.

Mr O'Dowd: I confirm that I have the answer to question 6.

First, I want to clarify that the Audit Office report does not state that there should be a comprehensive review of how NI Water is funded. It is important to note that, in its report on the funding of water infrastructure, the NIAO simply encouraged my Department and NI Water to complete a review of the alternative funding and governance arrangements for NI Water to be led by suitably qualified experts.


2.15 pm

As I have previously set out, my Department has already extensively reviewed NI Water's funding model and engaged experts in the Strategic Investment Board (SIB), the Department of Finance and NI Water and the Utility Regulator, who analysed the opportunities for NI Water to raise additional revenue and looked at different governance models. The conclusion was that all of the models examined required a water-charging model. To be clear again, I will not introduce domestic water charges on people and families who are already struggling as a consequence of rising inflation and higher costs of living.

My Department also reviewed alternative water utility company structures, including mutualisation, across these islands for best practice. I know that the Member will be interested in that, given that the Alliance Party has recently published its policy proposals for the funding and form of NI Water and has proposed mutualisation as one such structure. As I have previously advised the Assembly, mutualising NI Water will require the introduction of domestic water charges. However, in the spirit of delivering solutions, I have asked officials to keep alert to additional opportunities for providing additional funding for water and sewerage services within my policy framework and in collaboration with NI Water.

Alongside that, I am working hard in partnership with the Executive on progressing a three-pronged approach to ensure that NI Water remains fit for purpose. Specifically, I am continuing to work with Executive colleagues to try to increase waste water investment; reviewing the policy and legislation around developer contributions; and securing Executive agreement for the water, flooding and sustainable drainage Bill to be introduced to the Assembly.

I will leave it there.

Mr Speaker: Thank you, Minister. I think that you are better at answering the questions yourself than using the civil servants' answers, because you finish on time. Nonetheless, I am sure that you will get the rest of it in during your response to Ms Nicholl's supplementary question.

Ms Nicholl: I thank the Minister for his response. In NI Water's 2022-23 annual report, it said that it was being "held hostage" to fluctuations in its funding. Does the Minister agree with that assessment?

Mr O'Dowd: I do not agree with the use of the language. There is no certainty for NI Water going out onto the markets either. That has to be said. It has one certainty when it is being funded directly by the Executive: it has, at its back, the Executive — the Government. Going to any institution beyond that brings uncertainty. The markets will gladly, I suspect, take on NI Water, and privatisation will gladly take on NI Water, but look at what is happening in England. Look at the water companies in England that have been privatised. They are in substantial debt but continue to pay out significant bonuses to their directors, executives and shareholders. They are damaging the environment, because the scale of the upgrades that were promised to the infrastructure simply has not been delivered. Therefore, privatisation is not the utopia that some people present it as.

As I have said, mutualisation will lead to domestic water charges: I am not going down that route. Others may support it, and that is fair enough. NI Water has the Executive behind it. We have made significant investment in NI Water — over half a billion pounds this year. I also secured £19 million during the October monitoring round from my Executive colleagues, and we connected an extra 2,300 homes as a result of that investment. Often, when we talk about NI Water, we, understandably, talk in billions and hundreds of millions, but, sometimes, £5 million, £10 million, £15 million or £20 million makes a big difference.

Mr Dunne: Some 17,000 new homes across 23 of our towns are still being held up due to the waste water restrictions, so the system is clearly not working. What more can be done, particularly in relation to future monitoring rounds, to ensure that we can get back to homebuilding? Does the Minister agree that a sticking plaster approach simply will not cut it?

Mr O'Dowd: Even if the Executive were in a position to fully fund NI Water during the current price control period, 2021-27, it would connect only a further 4,500 homes. When it comes to those 19,000 homes or whatever figure is thrown out — I think you referred to 17,000 or 18,000 homes — the reality and the facts are that, if NI Water were to be fully funded to the level that the Utility Regulator recommended, 4,500 additional homes would be connected. NI Water is on record as saying that, during that period, if there were contributions from developers to divert rainwater away from the system, it could connect another 18,000 homes.

Yes, NI Water faces challenges in delivering, but, as I have said many times in the Chamber, let us not send out the message that we are closed for business, because we are not. Developers continue to engage with NI Water, and connections continue with NI Water. As I said when I answered the supplementary, the Executive delivered an additional £19 million to NI Water in October, and 2,300 homes will be connected as a result of that investment. We can all become blinded by figures and the scale of the problem that is coming at us, but that has shown me that we can solve some of those problems with some investment. The long- and medium-term plans that I have in front of me will allow NI Water to continue to deliver on its objectives.

Mr O'Toole: Minister, are you seriously telling us that you think that the funding model is grand? You seem to be saying that it is about finding odds and sods in January monitoring rounds, with tens of millions here and there. Important though that is, that is no model for the long-term funding of our waste water infrastructure. Every serious economic commentator, construction company and outside investor says that our water infrastructure is a crisis that needs to be dealt with. Down the coast, where NI Water pumps millions of tons into Belfast lough, we are famous for our seabirds, but lots of people listening today will associate that kind of intervention with another type of bird: an ostrich sticking its head in the sand. Minister, we need action on NI Water.

Mr O'Dowd: There is a difference between a funding model and the amount of funding received. Is the Member telling me that the privatisation of NI Water is now the Opposition's policy?

Mr O'Toole: I did not say that. What is your policy?

Mr O'Dowd: My policy is clear.

Mr O'Toole: No, it is not.

Mr O'Dowd: Maybe you have not been listening. Under my policy, NI Water will stay under the governance of the Executive. It will not be privatised. It will continue to receive a public subvention, which was almost half a billion pounds this year. I will continue to work with my colleagues. I am doing so successfully, because they are also willing to travel the journey to secure additional funding for NI Water. I am looking at contributions from developers for NI Water. We will then move to one of the most fundamental changes that, I believe, has to happen: working with nature. The sustainable drainage system (SuDS) Bill that will be introduced to the Assembly for Members to debate will set out a governance arrangement for dealing with the millions of gallons of rainwater that we put through waste water treatment works but do not need to treat. We spend tens of millions of pounds treating water that we do not to treat. We should hold that water back and release it more slowly into the system by working with nature. I have a plan; I look forward to hearing the Member's plan.

Ms Sheerin: Minister, will you outline the reviews of NI Water's funding model that the Department has carried out?

Mr O'Dowd: Several reviews have been carried out over the years. All of them have come to the same conclusions. Anyone standing in my shoes could change the funding model for NI Water. They could bring in privatisation or mutualisation etc. However, all the reviews came to the conclusion that changing the model would require the introduction of domestic water charges. I am clear on this, as are many others in the Chamber: there will be no introduction of domestic water charges. That limits the options. However, as I said to the Member who asked the original question, look at what is happening in England. Those who tell us that privatisation would solve all the problems in the management of waste water infrastructure should look at England. There has been significant damage to the environment, and companies are in serious debt, on the brink of collapse, and may even have to be nationalised again. Billions and billions of pounds of families' and workers' money went into those companies, but those people never saw the benefit of it.

Mr Allen: Just last week, the Communities Committee received a briefing from NI Water on the challenges that it faces. The officials from NI Water said that the capital investment required is nearly double that which is forecast. The Minister has repeatedly highlighted and then ruled out mutualisation, for example. Will he point us to the recent information that he has used to assess how mutualisation will lead to water charges?

Mr O'Dowd: One of the first debates that I responded to in the Chamber was on a motion that referred to the introduction of mutualisation. At that stage, I set it out clearly that information was available to me that mutualisation would lead to domestic water charges. That was in March or April 2024. To date, no one has provided contradictory information to that. If anyone can come forward with a report, research or information that is different from that, I will happily examine it, as will my officials.

There is no magic or easy solution to this. NI Water faces huge challenges, but name me a public service that does not. My job is to find solutions. I have set out in front of you today three of the pathways that I am following. One of those has already borne fruit: a £19 million investment has delivered over 2,300 connections. I will continue to lobby for more money for NI Water, and my Executive colleagues are on the same page as me. We will continue to look at the other methods as well.

Mr O'Dowd: The Member will be aware that I have already responded on the matter through the five questions for written answer that he has tabled in recent weeks about discharge into the Quoile river. NI Water has advised that Downpatrick waste water treatment works currently treats waste water in line with the parameters and limits set in its discharge consent issued by the Environment Agency. The continuous final treated effluent discharge from Downpatrick waste water treatment works into the Quoile river is subject to an operator self-monitoring announced sampling programme agreed with the Environment Agency.

Two types of sample are collected for regulatory compliance assessment, namely, spot samples for assessment of the water order consent compliance; and composite samples for assessment of compliance against the Urban Waste Water Treatment Regulations 2007. Spot samples are collected instantaneously by the sampling contractor, while composite samples are taken by the auto-sampler over a 24-hour period at 15-minute intervals. The treated effluent discharge from Downpatrick waste water treatment works has a sample frequency of 24 times per year, and the sampling parameters are based on the standards in the discharge consent issued by NIEA. NI Water's sampling, including sample collection and analysis, is accredited by the UK Accreditation Service (UKAS). For Downpatrick waste water treatment works, there were no occasions when the number of individual parameters exceeded the number of allowed fails, meaning that the works has been assessed as compliant with the regulatory quality discharge standards for the past five years.

Mr McGrath: I believe that there was a crossover between the submission of questions for oral answer and the responses to the questions for written answer, so I thank the Minister for those.

Is the Minister assured that, in the water management along the Quoile, dredging can play no part in assisting flood alleviation in the area? Many local people, some of whom have used the waterway in excess of 50 years, can pinpoint that the change in water management in the area came when the dredging stopped, yet the Department continually tells us that dredging will do nothing. Will the Minister have a real, deep look at that to see whether dredging could assist in any way?

Mr O'Dowd: The Member will be aware that the matter has, understandably, been raised with me a number of times. That has been the case for a number of other watercourses, each of which can tell its own story.

The advice of the engineers in my Department, who have the professional qualifications to advise me on such matters, is that dredging would not assist in the case of the Quoile river and may make matters worse by causing the water to flow faster, perhaps causing significant issues downstream etc.

On the Member's behalf, I will go back to officials and ask whether there is any further update, and I will let him know. At the moment, however, that is the information that I have in front of me.


2.30 pm

Mr Speaker: We now move to topical questions.

T1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure, having first placed on record his party's appreciation of and gratitude for the efforts of so many of his Department's staff throughout the storm and since, whether he feels that his Department could have been better prepared had a red warning been in place earlier. (AQT 931/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: My Department had been preparing for the storm since the various weather warnings were issued. It has to be remembered that, even when it was at the amber stage, that is still a quite significant weather event. The difference between amber and red is that red indicates a significant threat to life, and there is a recommendation not to travel. The amber warning is also significant, however, so my Department was preparing on that basis.

At this stage, everybody is aware of why there is a difference between the two jurisdictions in how they measure a weather event. I think that there is some work going on between the met offices to bring in a standard, which would be very helpful and would cause less confusion moving forward. I am satisfied, however, that my Department was preparing for a major and significant weather event even before the warning turned red.

Mr Durkan: The Minister has anticipated my supplementary question. He mentioned work that may be ongoing between the met offices in the different jurisdictions on this island. Will he undertake to do some more work with his counterparts in the Twenty-six Counties towards the development of an all-island weather warning and response system?

Mr O'Dowd: I am happy to do so. The key to it is that we are providing information to the public. It has to be said that, by and large, the public paid heed to the warnings that were delivered before the weather event. There were no deaths or serious injuries as a direct result of the weather event itself, and we all have to be thankful for that. We do not want anyone to be seriously injured or hurt, and the work of the emergency responders was made a lot easier in that regard. I am happy to work with my counterparts in Dublin to ensure that we have a common message coming out.

T2. Mrs Mason asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he has any plans to increase flood mitigation provision in Newcastle, County Down. (AQT 932/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: I had hoped to meet the contingency group that is established in Newcastle last Thursday, but that meeting had to be rearranged, partly as a result of the incoming storm. We are looking to see how we can continue to support communities and businesses in Newcastle, County Down, to alleviate their flooding concerns. There has been significant investment, and lessons have been learned from that. I understand that there may be a need for NI Water to make some investment in the area and to put in a pumping station to direct water back towards the river. My Department has inspected its network and gullies etc to ensure that the challenge that we face now, which is surface run-off, will not cause flooding problems in future, inasmuch as you can mitigate that threat, given that it depends on the strength of the storm.

Mrs Mason: I thank the Minister for his answer. The very committed Newcastle community flood defence group that you mentioned has raised the issue of communication between all of the agencies, including the local council. What coordination has taken place between the agencies and the council to ensure that a comprehensive flood emergency response is in place for Newcastle residents?

Mr O'Dowd: As has been the experience during the most recent event, there is a strategic contingency group that oversees the preparation for storms and how agencies work together with local communities to mitigate the impact. There are always lessons to be learned, however, and I look forward to rearranging the meeting with the group in Newcastle, just to hear about its real-time experience and determine the lessons that can be learned from that.

The residents' groups and business groups that come together are a vital cog in our defence against upcoming storms.

No matter how well resourced Departments are or how well they have planned, if there are people in the community who are prepared to work with them and take measures, the safety and well-being of the community will increase almost twofold. I therefore look forward to learning the lessons from Newcastle, and I encourage others to follow its path.

T3. Miss Hargey asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on engagements that he has had with Belfast City Council and the Department for Communities on progressing the 'A Bolder Vision for Belfast' plan. (AQT 933/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: The last ministerial meeting on 'A Bolder Vision for Belfast' was in 2022. Since then, my officials have had ongoing engagement and discussions with project officials from Belfast City Council and the Department for Communities. There is an acknowledgement that the eastern transport plan, which I discussed earlier, will play a significant part in detailing and delivering the transport aspects of 'A Bolder Vision'. As a result, it was agreed that the 'A Bolder Vision' strategy would be revised once there was more clarity on the eastern transport plan and the city centre proposals. That work and engagement continues, with Belfast City Council being a key leader in that regard.

Miss Hargey: Belfast city centre is surrounded by inner-city working-class communities that have been cut off from the city by defensive planning in the 1960s and 1970s. Does the Minister agree that the plan should start to deal with that severance issue and re-stitch those communities into the city centre?

Mr O'Dowd: I do. Roads present barriers and divide communities physically. If there is a busy two-, three- or four-lane road running between communities, that is a physical barrier, even to their development. Such roads can prevent them from getting, for example, local shops or community infrastructure. The transport plan and 'A Bolder Vision for Belfast' have to be about opening up the city by removing those barriers, but it also has to be about making it cleaner and greener. Yes, allow people to use a private vehicle when necessary but also provide space for public transport and active travel, whether that be walking, cycling or wheeling. You can give the city a bolder vision, but it would be a radical vision for the city to allow it to be opened up for its people. Belfast thrived because of its local communities, so it is almost a case of giving the city back to them.

T4. Mr Clarke asked the Minister for Infrastructure, although he acknowledges that no one underestimated the mammoth task that some of the Minister's officials had over the weekend to clear roads, to indicate how much local farmers weighed in to support them. (AQT 934/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: It is clear that farming communities once again stepped up to the mark and cleared a lot of debris off roads and removed trees etc, and I welcome that. I appeal, however, to anyone who is proposing to clear fallen trees or debris from roads not to do so if they have any concerns whatever. If cables are down, take it for granted that they are live, and let the professionals deal with them. However, I thank the members of the farming community who have helped out thus far.

Mr Clarke: I hear what you say, Minister, and agree with your remarks about cables. The good old farmers have come out to help again, and what I am trying to find out from you, Minister, is whether there is any indication of whether we are going to retain a list of farmers who can be called on for their support and can be recompensed for the work that they do? If it were not for the farmers, some of the work would take much longer. Those farmers, who are getting hammered from every direction, are doing that work at their own expense. Will you now compile a simple register of farmers to be called on following events such as this or snow or other adverse weather?

Mr O'Dowd: After the period of cold weather in early January, I asked a similar question in the Department about whether we could use farmers to grit a number of rural roads. If I am correct, the Department can, through its procurement exercises, hold a list of contractors, and individual farmers could be on that list. It is something that we should explore. The Member is right: if we have people in the community with the equipment, skill set and knowledge to help us out, we should use them as much as we can. I will examine that further with officials in the time ahead.

T5. Mr Irwin asked the Minister for Infrastructure, after thanking his colleague for praising farmers for the work that they have done to clear roads after the storm, whether he has any plans to provide more money for rural road repairs, bearing in mind that maintenance of rural roads and potholes is a major issue in his constituency and in many constituencies across the Province. (AQT 935/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: I am working my way through my entire departmental budget, both capital and resource, to see how we can divvy it up. The Member will be aware from hearing about them during Question Time of all the demands that are, understandably, on my Department. I am keen to ensure that our road infrastructure receives an uplift in its investment. It has suffered significantly over the past number of years through difficult budgetary periods. We are not out of that yet, but I have a better budget this year than I had in the previous year or the year before that, so I want to make best use of it.

Mr Irwin: I thank the Minister for his response. Does he accept that money would be better spent on repairing roads than on paying for damage to cars? People come in to my office daily, looking for claim forms.

Mr O'Dowd: Without a doubt. Prevention is better than cure. That is one of the reasons why I am keen to ensure that our road infrastructure is properly maintained.

T6. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline the potential benefits of biennial MOT testing, given that he recently launched a consultation on it. (AQT 936/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: The Member is correct that I have launched a consultation. It is a genuine consultation; I have not come to a fixed position on the matter. I want to hear the views of the public, motorists, garage owners, insurance companies, the PSNI and others on whether we should move to a biennial service. One of the clear advantages relates to the pressures on the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) and how it manages an ever-increasing demand for MOT tests. It could also be a recognition that modern vehicles are better constructed, have more safety features and are, in many ways, more durable than the earlier models that we may have dealt with before MOT tests were changed to include the criteria that the DVA has now. There are a number of advantages, but the consultation is genuine, and I want to hear the views of all before making a final decision.

Ms Kimmins: Go raibh maith agat.

[Translation: Thank you.]

Will the Minister commit to ensuring that road safety will not be negatively impacted on by biennial MOT tests, should they be introduced?

Mr O'Dowd: That will be the primary prism through which I look at the matter when I come to make a decision. During the previous mandate, when the then Minister, Minister Mallon, called for evidence on the matter, one of the issues that the PSNI and others raised was ensuring continued road safety. Given the ever-increasing death and injury toll on our roads, I will ensure that safety is the major factor in any decision.

T7. Ms Sugden asked the Minister for Infrastructure, after stating that work on a puffin crossing on the Dunhill Road in Coleraine is ongoing and that such investment is always welcome, to acknowledge that better traffic management is needed in that area, given that there are new residential developments there and a number of new big stores in the Riverside Retail Park. (AQT 937/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: I do not know the specifics of the area. The Member has corresponded with me on a number of roads in her area to raise concerns and suggest ideas on how we should manage them. All new developments in an area have to go through the planning process, as the Member will be aware. DFI Roads is a consultee in that regard. As developments increase in that or any other area, DFI Roads will make a consultation response on how best to manage the traffic there. I encourage the local council's planning committee to take on board what DFI Roads says.

Ms Sugden: I am glad that the Minister has mentioned planning permission, because I thought that there would be an opportunity to address the issue through new developments. Sadly, DFI, as a statutory consultee, did not raise the issue. After many years, we are still going through the process. Will the Minister commit to looking at it again?

Mr O'Dowd: I am happy to do so.

T9. Mr Dunne asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the Sydenham bypass resurfacing works. (AQT 939/22-27)

Mr O'Dowd: Apart from one weekend, when they had to be cancelled due to adverse weather conditions, the works are progressing as planned.

Mr Dunne: Thank you for that, Minister. I believe that, over the past two weekends, the works have been postponed due to weather conditions. I am keen to find out a more accurate completion date, given the weather conditions.


2.45 pm

Mr O'Dowd: I will supply the Member with the most up-to-date report on the completion of that. Works can be delayed or cancelled as a result of difficult weather conditions, and last weekend's were particularly difficult. I will keep the Member up to date on the proposed finalisation of that.

Mr Speaker: That concludes questions to the Minister for Infrastructure.

Health

Mr Nesbitt (The Minister of Health): I thank the Member for his question. Given the logistics involved, no consideration has been given to asking the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust to reopen the inpatient ward or minor injuries unit at Bangor Community Hospital. I believe that the Member is aware that that service, along with the associated resources, transferred to the Ulster Hospital as early as September 2023, following extensive consultation. As detailed in the consultation report, the stand-alone minor injuries services at Bangor Community Hospital were not sustainable. I believe that there has been a physical reconfiguration of that area in Bangor Community Hospital since then.

The Member will know that, in order to provide a new service, such as a step-down service or an emergency service, we need four things: the building, the equipment, the medicines and the workforce. Of course, the workforce is the most important element. If you do not have the right workforce, it does not matter what buildings, equipment capacity or range of medicines you have. Given the timescales, it was not possible to consider Bangor Community Hospital in the way that the Member has suggested.

Mr Martin: I thank the Minister for that answer. He touched on workforce. GPs are one of the professions on the front line when it comes to dealing with patients before they get to emergency departments (EDs). What is the Minister's plan for increasing the number of GPs being trained in Northern Ireland? What is a possible timescale for achieving that?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for that follow-up question. We have been increasing the number over recent years. Would I like to increase it yet further? Yes, of course I would. Would I like to provide a timescale? Yes, I would, but the fact is that the budget does not permit me to start detailing that sort of plan to the Member. As we move into next year, the draft 2025-26 Budget leaves the Department of Health with a funding gap of around £400 million. I remind the Member that I am working hard to deliver the pay parity awards that nurses and doctors deserve. I do not want to sound the irony klaxon just yet, but the challenges of increasing staffing, workforce and resource cannot be met without an appropriate accompanying budget.

Mr McGrath: Does the Minister agree that the full utilisation of facilities such as Bangor Community Hospital and Downe Hospital would help to alleviate pressures that are felt across the South Eastern Trust? Does the Minister agree that more could be done to utilise the Downe Hospital, including its urgent care centre, by extending the hours or the provisions in the hospital? People would be assisted by not having to travel to the Ulster Hospital to get that care, and it would save some of the pressures there.

Mr Nesbitt: I was recently in Downe Hospital. The urgent care centre was one of the areas that I visited. It is a magnificent development. Indeed, the consultants and nurses in that urgent care centre made the point that, in the past, people who lived in the vicinity of that hospital would have made their way to the Ulster Hospital emergency department to be triaged and would then have been referred back to Downe Hospital. The direction of travel that I want to see, which is now emerging, is having direct referrals, preferably made by GPs who have done a triage assessment, and then being able to contact an urgent care centre directly, bypassing EDs and unnecessary trips to other hospitals.

More broadly, I am absolutely with my predecessor Robin Swann when it comes to maximising the capacity of those hospitals. He said that he needed every square yard — I imagine that he said "yard", because he is not a European and would not have gone for "every square metre". We need every square yard or square metre of all the facilities. It is about how we reconfigure them, and that is why I have gone out to consultation on the idea of having a network of hospitals. We really need to embed that idea in the minds of the population.

Mr Speaker: Question 2 has been withdrawn.

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for her question. Following the publication of the consultation report, the social care collaborative forum was established with the intention of working with my Department to implement the proposed reforms. The forum provides the cross-sectoral leadership that will be critical to adult social care reform. While it is expected that full reform of the scale necessary will only be deliverable in the longer term, we are also trying to make progress in a number of key areas. Achievements to date include the establishment of the social care fair work forum, which aims to gather evidence to support additional investment in the sector, and the commitment to make it a real living wage sector, which is a policy that the Member will be aware that I announced earlier this month. I also made available additional funding in the financial year 2024-25 to help stabilise and maintain independent sector provision. The implementation of CareLineLive in three of the health trusts is enabling the better utilisation and deployment of the trusts' home-care services. They do this by creating greater line of sight of home-care capacity on specific schedules and quickly identifying areas where there are capacity issues and where recruitment activity needs to be focused.

The completion of a review of the impact of trusts' early review teams resulted in 2,884 strategic planning and performance group-funded hours per week being recycled into the system between October 2023 and September 2024. It is intended to roll out reviews across all programmes of care in the next financial year.

A new social care workforce strategy was launched on 12 December. Among other things, it sets out how we will attract, grow, retain and develop the skilled staff necessary to deliver high-quality social care. To deliver that stronger, strategic vision, a whole-system approach to design and delivery will be required.

Miss McIlveen: I thank the Minister for his response. The overall reform of adult social care is essential to the transformation of the health service. I accept that it will take considerable time. Equally essential is taking measures to ensure the flow of patients in hospitals. What we are seeing currently is unacceptable. I appreciate that the Minister has outlined some of the things that he is doing. Can he give us some confidence that what is happening now will have an immediate consequence?

Mr Nesbitt: Yes, I can assure the Member that there will be an immediate consequence in what I am calling "blank-sheet planning" for next winter — and, indeed, earlier than that. As she correctly identifies, the issue has been the flow, which can be blocked at any point between a patient arriving in an ambulance at an acute hospital and being fit for discharge at the so-called back door. The Member is also aware that, this year, the biggest problem that has manifested itself in emergency departments is not the emergency department but the community capacity. I am determined to work at that over the course of the coming calendar and financial year. Hopefully, introducing the real living wage should make working in that area much more attractive, certainly more attractive. That is a major step.

With that blank-sheet approach to pressures in our EDs — not just winter pressures, which I now call "additional winter pressures" — I hope that we will look at the consequences and how we improve, going forward.

Ms Kimmins: I really welcome the commitment to the real living wage. It will go some way to tackling the issue. Minister, in relation to that, as you have said yourself, we are aware that social care is key to unlocking some of the significant pressures on our hospitals. I have been speaking to some providers, and there are solutions that can be looked at. Has the Minister looked at potentially ring-fencing funds around rural packages? That would help to tackle some of the real challenges in getting care packages for people living in more rural areas that are harder to reach and are not as attractive for domiciliary care providers, given the huge travel times and difficulties accessing those locations.

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Chair of the Committee, who is speaking in her personal capacity as an MLA. Yes, that is an issue but it is one in a range of issues that we have to look at. We have to think outside the box and have that blank-page start and ask, first of all, "What are the issues?", and there are specific, rural issues with healthcare delivery. Absolutely. We then have to ask ourselves, "What are our resources and what is our ability to meet the challenges that we have?"

I am more than happy to work with the Member on an individual basis, and I am more than happy to work with the Committee. I will be working with officials. I am very glad to listen to representatives from the voluntary and community sector, who operate in rural areas, for me to fully understand the issues and to listen to imaginative ideas for how to address them.

Mr McNulty: Minister, you mentioned a blank-sheet approach to dealing with adult social care challenges. What would you say to the front-line workers in our care homes who have come to your Department with practical, logical and workable solutions but say that they are not being listened to? Do you agree that many of the issues in social care are caused not by a lack of money but by how money is being spent, and that it is vital to listen to the people who, literally, have their finger on the pulse?

Mr Nesbitt: I agree with the Member that listening is absolutely important. As Minister of Health, I listen to people, not just those in the Department. I listen to anecdotes, but, more importantly, I like to listen to people who are at — to use an old-fashioned phrase — the coalface. I do that all the time. I was in a care home on Christmas morning, listening to some of the staff talking about the challenges that they have in delivering for their service users. It is really important to listen. It is also important to set a direction of travel. I think that the Member will recognise that I have set a direction of travel, which is to shift left in order to try to take the emphasis off curing people who, in many cases, have become acutely ill and need an acute hospital, and to put the emphasis on community, primary and social care, and on prevention and early intervention. It is about making sure that people do not need to go to an acute hospital, unless that need is absolutely acute.

Ms Bradshaw: Minister, you talked about the fair work forum. I have a constituent who had to take time off work because she picked up a bug in a nursing home. She was not paid for the shifts that she missed. What is being done to improve the terms and conditions of our care assistants and domestic workers etc, who provide vital support in our care homes?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for the point. I am not aware of that individual constituent's contractual relationship with her employer. It may well be a private-sector matter, in which case the Department is, probably, limited in the extent to which it can intervene. However, if the Member wants to provide me with the details, I am more than happy to look at the particulars; as Shakespeare said, from the particular comes the general.

Mr Stewart: Recent weeks have, once again, shone a spotlight on the importance of our social care workforce. Therefore, I very much welcome the Minister's recent announcement that he will ensure that the sector becomes a living wage employer. Will he provide an update on what else has been achieved to date to support our social care workforce?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member. A range of initiatives are under way to help to build and sustain that workforce: the social care workforce strategy, which I have already mentioned and which will be key to addressing recruitment and retention in the sector; the launch of the new level 2 safe and effective care practice certificate; a new care and practice framework, which includes career pathways; and a continuous learning framework. Those will all support the career progression of social care practitioners and should enable them to use their practice experience, knowledge and skills to better support service users. I have mentioned the establishment of the fair work forum to make an evidence-based case for improving pay, terms and conditions. Furthermore, I recently announced my intention to make the sector a real living wage sector. We have also sought to better promote social care as a valuable career choice. We have delivered the Social Care — Making a Difference promotional campaign, which showcases the value and diversity of social care.

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for her question. I have asked my officials to identify the key lessons from the new maternity hospital project and ensure that they are applied ahead of signing any contract for the new children's hospital on the Royal Victoria site. My officials are working closely with all parties involved in the delivery of the new children's hospital, including the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust, the design team and the contractor. We want them to consider a range of improvements to the management of that construction project, which the Member and I agree is absolutely crucial.

At the minimum, I am looking for the use of a new engineering contract (NEC), which is a new form of construction contract that contains contractual requirements demanding timely decision-making with collaborative, agreed outcomes.

I also want the appointment of a new director of strategic development in the trust to carry out the role of senior responsible owner for the children’s hospital. Much of their workload will be attributable to the project.


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The incorporation of learning from the maternity hospital and other learning from recent major schemes in the NHS and, indeed, in Dublin into the design and commissioning arrangements for the children’s project will be essential. That has included the definition of more detailed criteria for the water safety standards. We will also see the engagement of independent subject matter experts for all the critical systems. That includes high-voltage and low-voltage electricity, water, fire, medical gas and ventilation. The introduction of building information management and a contract management software system with common data environment for use by all parties will improve project collaboration and coordination. Finally, the introduction of a new change control protocol for the children’s hospital project should be reassuring.

Mrs Dodds: I thank the Minister. I absolutely agree that the new children's hospital is an imperative for us in Northern Ireland. I spent many years of my life in the old children's hospital, and the conditions there have not improved significantly since that time.

In reply to a question for written answer that I submitted to the Minister, which I received just this morning, the Minister stated that consultancy fees for the children's hospital are in the region of £25 million so far. Can he explain what that money was spent on and how we might prevent excessive — if that figure is not excessive — amounts of money from being spent on that element of the build?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for her supplementary question, and I acknowledge, of course, the time that she spent in previous years in the maternity hospital. I will not endorse the thought of those fees being excessive, because I think that, to reach that conclusion, we need to break them down and analyse them line by line. I have asked for that to be done, because, like the Member, I find the amount to be surprising, if I may use that phrase. I find it surprisingly high, but they are major works that have gone on over a long time.

I have said in the House previously it is not just the construction of new build in Health and Social Care that should be an issue for the House and for the Executive. You think of things such as the additional costs of Ulster University's development in north Belfast and Casement Park. I have come to the conclusion that we are certainly not top of the class or best in class when it comes to major infrastructure works, and this is part of a bigger problem that needs to be analysed, because those figures, on the face of it, are surprisingly high. It is incumbent on me as the Minister of Health to look at whether it can be fully justified or whether there are areas where there are learnings and where we can say that we should not have run up such a big bill.

Mr Donnelly: The projects are associated with spiralling costs and ever-increasing delivery timelines. What is the Minister doing to ensure that future projects are delivered on budget and on time?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for his question, and I agree with the sentiment of it, although I caveat that by saying that there are things that are beyond our control. The rise in building costs and in building materials has been much higher than anybody — any economist, any politician or any Chancellor of the Exchequer — could have predicted over the past number of years.

That said, we have to think again, because there are so many examples, as I have just said, not just in health provision, where the costs and the timelines are exceeded quite starkly. I think that it was the Audit Office that recommended that we have an Executive-wide body to look at all such major projects. That is the right way to go, and I had written to the First Minister and deputy First Minister in those terms. It is an issue that, to my mind, is unresolved. I do not know whether that will be the outcome or whether a better outcome is being proposed by colleagues in the Executive or elsewhere. How can anybody who has listened to the history of those major projects over recent years have any confidence that the next project will not run over in time and cost?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member. I assure him that work on the proposed changes to the legislation is a key focus for my Department and that I am committed to ensuring that the work is completed without undue delay. The Member may well come back to me and say that there has already been undue delay. He can make that argument, which I am more than happy to listen to. However, in defence of the Department, it is a complex area. It is not the case that, in GB, all universal credit recipients are automatically eligible for help with health costs. That needs to be looked at and is part of the delay.

I am pleased to tell the Member that I am announcing that the public consultation on the proposed eligibility criteria for passporting UC recipients has launched today. The consultation will run for six weeks, with the associated legislative process commencing thereafter. It is intended that the legislative process will be completed by this summer. My aim is to ensure that those most in need automatically receive help to access those very important health services.

Mr Allen: I thank the Minister for that important update. Will the Minister commit to assessing whether the length of time that it has taken to get to this juncture can be justified? I do not feel that it can. Will he also outline what engagement his Department has had with the Department for Communities on streamlining the application process for those who will not be captured by any legislative change?

Mr Nesbitt: The Member now brings up three things. First, let us make it happen. To my mind, the most important thing is that we look after those vulnerable people and make sure that they get the help, resources and funding support that they need.

I am taking it in reverse order. Secondly, yes, there has been ongoing consultation between officials from my Department and the Department for Communities. The two Departments work well together. Indeed, what has been happening since last week's storm is evidence of good cooperation, from ministerial level down, between the Minister for Communities and me. I will digress just for a moment: a lot of the vulnerabilities are not with people in hospitals or care homes but with the vulnerable in the community.

The third point was on whether I will investigate whether there has been an undue delay. I assure the Member that I will do that, but let us get the thing fixed first.

Mr Carroll: Leaving aside the obvious fact that nobody should be forced to pay for healthcare, will the Minister confirm why exemptions do not automatically apply when people sign on for universal credit or other benefits? Why do people have to apply annually through the HC1 form? I fear that too many people are falling through the cracks.

Mr Nesbitt: I will confirm it in writing to the Member, but I believe that those are regulations coming out of the UK Government and are UK-wide.

Ms Mulholland: I am delighted to hear that the consultation has been launched. The more quickly we can get it sorted, the better. What engagement has the Minister had with DWP about those who are excluded in GB and whether there will be a direct copy and paste here?

Mr Nesbitt: Yes. Maybe I should have made it clear that my officials are liaising not just with the Department for Communities here but with the Department for Work and Pensions in London. As I said, it is a complex area, and we intend to get the best possible fit for people in Northern Ireland. That involves knowing exactly what DWP is doing, including the restrictions, because, as I said, not everybody automatically passports from universal credit to get this help. We want to get the best of both worlds.

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member. I recognise that, like elsewhere in the UK, our Health and Social Care (HSC) system as a whole is under sustained and significant pressure. Too many people wait too long to access urgent and emergency care, which falls short of the service that we all strive to provide.

My Department recognises the risk of possible harm to patients who experience long waiting times in an emergency department. Some patients will present with a range of issues where alcohol may have been a factor — for example, a fracture or head injury due to a fall — or they may present with symptoms of liver disease.

Hospital attendances are coded to reflect the primary reason for a patient attending the emergency department, but that will not necessarily reflect the fact that alcohol was a contributory factor. It is therefore not possible to provide a reliable assessment of the impact of excessive alcohol consumption on visits to emergency facilities over Christmas and the new year.

We know that our EDs faced increased pressures over the festive period. That is why my Department asked the trusts and the Ambulance Service to develop improved plans to maximise capacity and improve flow through our hospitals. That is all part of the winter preparedness arrangements. Trusts also plan to include the development of pathways that provide direct access for ambulance services to services as an alternative to conveyance to emergency departments, which will reduce pressures on those EDs.

If I may be so bold, Mr Speaker, maybe I can ask the Member a question. Does he support me in my drive to get the Executive to agree to introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol, which has been proven to decrease demand on the NHS in Scotland?

Mr Irwin: I thank the Minister for his response. I do not take alcohol.

A constituent approached me about Craigavon Area Hospital, where he had seen at first hand the issues resulting from excess alcohol and the dangers that it creates for staff. Does the Minister accept that it is an issue that must be dealt with?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for his follow-up question. Before I became Minister — in fact, we are talking about maybe three or four years ago — I was made aware that Monday nights are the nights when EDs are under the most pressure. As a constituency MLA, I asked to spend the night observing a night shift in the ED at the Ulster Hospital. I brought up the issue of people coming in after excessive drinking and asked whether it caused problems and created pressure. The nurses said, very clearly, "Absolutely not. We have been dealing with that for decades. It is not a new issue. We are well used to dealing with it". By the way, they said that the big problem was treating mental health patients, because, in the old ED at the Ulster Hospital, there was only one side room for mental health patients, so, when a second one presented, there was nowhere to put that patient.

When I was there, a guy came in a bit after midnight by ambulance. He was drunk. He had a lot of alcohol on board. He was found a chair. At around 2.00 am, the chair was empty. I asked, "Have you dealt with that patient?". I was told, "No, he has disappeared". At around 3.30 am, a second ambulance brought the same patient back. What had happened in the meantime? He had got a taxi home to get a drink. That is what ED staff have to deal with.

Mr Blair: On the subject of winter preparedness, to which the Minister referred, will health workers and professional bodies, such as the RCN, the BMA and the Royal College of Emergency Medicine (RCEM), be consulted when the Minister starts work on his so-called blank page for winter pressures?

Mr Nesbitt: I am very happy to confirm that they will be. To be fair to them, departmental officials were very professional in their approach when they started, in March 2024, to plan for this winter. From looking at the plans, however, it is clear to me that some of those organisations were represented directly at the table, some were represented second-hand by a broader organisational group and some were perhaps not even at the table at all.

My view is that we get every stakeholder around the table for the initial meeting, where the page is blank. I have some ideas, but, if I start to say them, I will be filling in the page before they get to have their input. Let us start with a blank page. When we fill it in, a lot of the stuff that we already know is bound to go in there, but let us try to be imaginative, and, above all, let us include everybody from the get-go. That clearly did not happen last time. That is not a criticism of the Department; it is a critique of what happened last time and of how we might improve things next time.

Mr Nesbitt: For a number of years, the Department has been working collaboratively with the trusts and other stakeholders in an effort to stabilise the social work workforce. It has been a key focus for my predecessor and for me. In early 2023, over 200 social workers were employed by recruitment agencies. They were delivering Health and Social Care services.

The majority of those agency social workers were located in children's services, which is a sector that was also experiencing high levels of vacancies.


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In collaboration with the trusts, the Department decided to end agency usage for HSC social workers by the end of June 2023. Some 160 former recruitment agency social workers were then recruited into HSC posts. I repeat: 160. The five trusts have confirmed to the Department that, between September 2023 and the present day, no recruitment agency social workers have been employed in HSC services. I am pleased to report that, between July and October 2023, 204 newly qualified social workers were appointed to vacant posts, the majority of which were in services relating to children and families. That exercise was repeated in the summer of 2024, and, again, I am glad to report that a further 221 newly qualified social workers have successfully completed their social work training and taken up permanent employment in the trusts.

The net effect of the Department, stakeholders and the HSC trusts working together over the past two years has been the trusts’ complete cessation of agency social worker usage, the direct recruitment of 160 former agency social workers into HSC contracts and the recruitment of almost 430 newly qualified social workers into HSC vacancies.

Mr Speaker: We have no time for your supplementary question, Mr Chambers. We move to topical questions.

T1. Mr McGrath asked the Minister of Health, given that the Ambulance Service is staffed by a band of dedicated and skilled personnel who are lifesavers in our community, whether he agrees that it was deplorable that, at one point over the Christmas period, 41 of 49 available ambulances in Northern Ireland were outside a hospital emergency department, with some staff having to wait up to nine hours to hand over their patient. (AQT 941/22-27)

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for his point. It is entirely regrettable that that is one of the symptoms of the blockage in the flow through our acute hospitals, and I am determined to address it. The answer is not simply in more staff or more ambulances. The answer is not just in bigger EDs with more staff, and it is not about more beds in acute hospitals. It is about the flow, and, as the Member knows, the biggest obstacle this winter has been the lack of community care, whether that is in care homes or through domiciliary packages. We have to work hard on that. Like nurses, doctors and allied health professionals in EDs, ambulance crews did not sign up to sit with, often, an elderly patient in their vehicle outside an emergency department, potentially overnight.

Things are being done to improve the service. The Member will be aware of the regional control centre at Knockbracken. I visited it a few weeks ago for the daily 12.00 noon call, when staff try to coordinate the trusts. Collaboration is building. The trusts need to trust one another. You do not want one trust saying, "We will take some of your patients and take some of the load off you", unless it can be absolutely confident that the other trust is not simply saying, "We do not need to try any harder. We can just rely on our colleagues across the trust border".

It is stark to look at the screens in the regional control centre and see that ambulances are waiting 12, 14 or 16 hours. Often, the patient is in their 70s or 80s or even their 90s.

Mr McGrath: Politely, Minister, that is not good enough. The majority of your answer was a regurgitation of the problem. You identify flow as being the issue, which will take considerable time to resolve. We need to sort out the problem with ambulance handovers now. Otherwise, we will deprive people in our communities of a 999 call. There will be no ambulance for them, which is totally unacceptable. What can we do now to fix the problem of ambulance handovers?

Mr Nesbitt: With respect, the Member's comment is entirely inconsistent. On the one hand he says, "This is a long-term problem that needs a long-term solution", and, on the other he thumps the desk and says, "Do something now". Does the Member really think that, if I could pull a lever that would help, even in a minor way, today and tomorrow, I would not pull it? Does he really think that anybody is sitting back and saying, "There is a partial solution, today and tomorrow, that will make a partial positive difference", and we are not doing it? If the Member does think that, come and see me afterwards and tell me what it is.

T2. Mr Stewart asked the Minister of Health, given that he joined him on a useful and informative visit to a GP practice in Carrickfergus, during which the Minister indicated that the East Antrim GP Federation was likely to be included in the next tranche of the multidisciplinary team (MDT) roll-out, whether he is hopeful that the funding will shortly be made available to allow the roll-out to continue. (AQT 942/22-27)

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member. I very much enjoyed my visit to the practice in East Antrim with the Member. Sometimes, you walk into a health or social care facility and are immediately hit with the positive energy and a good feeling, and that was certainly the case on that day.

Multidisciplinary teams are currently in seven of our 17 GP federations. If I could click my fingers or had a magic wand, they would be in all 17 by the close of business today. Unfortunately, that is not the case. East Antrim is far from being in the worst position of the remaining GP federations because it is third on our list for a roll-out, but that roll-out is dependent on funding being secured from the transformation fund. The transformation fund has not yet come to any of its conclusions. The interim board has done the first sift, and I am glad to say that our bid for money for multidisciplinary teams is through round one and into round two. I can only hope that we will come through successfully at the conclusion of its deliberations and that that will happen as quickly as possible.

Mr Stewart: I thank the Minister for his quite reassuring update. Minister, how transformative will the roll-out be in areas such as East Antrim, which are experiencing high levels of ongoing health needs? Do you hope that placing more staff in primary care settings will ultimately lessen the pressures on secondary care?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member. I will take the second part of the question first. Yes. My view is that we must shift left into primary and community care. We must talk about prevention and early intervention rather than waiting for people to become acutely ill and end up in our major hospitals. Of all the reforms that have happened since Bengoa, multidisciplinary teams in primary care are probably the most successful example of transformation, and we have talked about elective overnight stay centres, day procedure centres, mega clinics, rapid diagnostic centres, which are all in secondary care.

I will give the Member some statistics. Multidisciplinary teams have seen over 751,000 patients and offered physiotherapy, social work, mental healthcare and the rest, and that is across 116 GP surgeries. Some 171,000 people have accessed the full multidisciplinary team services, and 300,000 additional consultations have taken place because of multidisciplinary teams. My concern is that people in some areas have access to a full MDT team, but, in some areas, it is a partial one and, in some areas, none at all. That is an issue for the delivery of health equity, and it can be addressed only through additional funding, such as that coming from the transformation fund.

Mr Speaker: Question 3 has been withdrawn.

T4. Mr Donnelly asked the Minister of Health what impact the proposed increase in National Insurance contributions will have on our community pharmacies in Northern Ireland. (AQT 944/22-27)

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for his question. It is certainly an issue that exercises me, as, I am sure, it does community pharmacists. I am not sure that I have any confidence that the Government in London are going to step up to the mark and provide help. I think that, for direct employees of Health and Social Care, we will get assistance with the additional demand for National Insurance, but I have no confidence that that is coming for GP surgeries, community pharmacies and hospices. The cost will be in the tens of millions of pounds, and it is another unwelcome additional pressure on major and extremely important areas of HSC delivery.

Mr Donnelly: I thank the Minister for his answer. I certainly agree with that. Given that community pharmacies were a key pillar of his winter preparedness plan of last year and likely to be so again this year, what engagements has the Minister had with the UK Health Secretary on this topic and what he is doing to support this key sector?

Mr Nesbitt: I have written to Wes Streeting, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care in London. I have also engaged with our Finance Minister, Caoimhe Archibald, to make her aware of the issues, and she is making representations to Treasury. The Member may agree with me that the relatively new Government in London have done some surprising things since taking power on 4 July, and when I say "surprising things", I mean not in a good way. Certainly this rise in National Insurance contributions, and who it is being targeted at, is not going to help healthcare delivery in the short to medium term.

As the Member says, community pharmacies have a really important part to play in my desire to shift left because, along with GP surgeries, they provide so many vital services, and increasingly more, such as the sore throat initiative, over this winter.

T5. Mr Blair asked the Minister of Health for his assessment of the announcement that the Northern Health and Social Care Trust is conducting a public consultation on the proposal for the use of body cams by staff. (AQT 945/22-27)

Mr Nesbitt: The Member will agree with me that, in recent weeks and months, we have heard some very disturbing stories about activities within the curtilage of emergency departments. Threats to staff are high on that list. Drug abuse and drug use is another issue. Nurses and doctors in EDs are well used to people coming in with alcohol issues, but some of those developments are worthy of being defined as "developments". Personally, I support the consultation. I would like to know what the public thinks, and I would like to think that they will back us. We always recognise their support for healthcare workers.

Mr Blair: I thank the Minister for that answer and recognise, of course, the seriousness of the issues and that the safety of staff must be a priority. Is the Minister aware of any work being done currently, or even before the consultation commenced, to minimise risk for staff? Perhaps he could bring into his reply work being done with other agencies?

Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Member for the question. I believe that the trusts are giving active consideration to that and, obviously, they are working with the PSNI. Another issue that I think will lend itself to the use of body-worn video is the introduction, which is forthcoming, as the Member will know, of the Right Care, Right Person policy by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is particular in how the police react to people who have mental health issues. I have no fundamental objection to the policy. My concern, as the Chief Constable and others know, is that we roll it out in a way that we do not create a hiatus: we do not do it so quickly that the police stop responding but the health service is not ready to fill the gap.

We are working with the police in the thinking around body-worn video. As former members of the Policing Board, we know the impact of body-worn video on the police's ability to do their job and bring wrongdoers to the right place.

T7. Mr Carroll asked the Minister of Health, further to AQW 9436/22-27 to the Minister's predecessor, whether he has plans to review the Department's policy of not keeping figures on hospitalisation due to issues with damp and mould. (AQT 947/22-27)

Mr Nesbitt: I do not. If the Member wants to write to me, I will give it due consideration.

Mr Carroll: I thank the Minister for that. I will write to him about that. Does he accept that damp and mould is a public health issue and something that requires urgent action from his Department, including through legislation to deal with landlords and other housing issues that are often not tackled?

Mr Nesbitt: I agree that it is a public health issue. As a constituency MLA, I have visited houses that have damp and mould and are home to very young children. However, in legislating, I do not think that it falls primarily to the Department of Health. Certainly, on a personal and party level, we are supportive of the sort of legislation that the Member suggests.

T8. Mr Beattie asked the Minister of Health for an update on the UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill. (AQT 948/22-27)


3.30 pm

Mr Nesbitt: I am very supportive of the UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I thank the Member for his question. As he will know, smoking is the number-one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health in the UK. In Northern Ireland, it kills 2,000 people every year.

The Assembly agreed to Northern Ireland's inclusion in the previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill under the previous Government. That Bill fell due to the election in July. I hope that Members will continue their support for the new Bill, which is largely the same but with a few extra protections. I am hopeful that a legislative consent motion will be laid before the Assembly in a fortnight's time. Subject to the necessary approvals, the Department will focus, in the immediate term, on the introduction of that legislation, including the bringing forward of regulations under the powers in the Bill. It will then identify the remaining challenges, which will be the focus of a new tobacco control strategy for Northern Ireland.

Mr Speaker: That draws to a conclusion questions to the Minister of Health. I ask Members to take their ease until we return to the previous debate.

(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Ní Chuilín] in the Chair)

Private Members' Business

Debate resumed on amendment to motion:

That this Assembly expresses grave alarm that the number of emergency food parcels distributed by Trussell food banks to children in Northern Ireland increased by 90% during the past five years; is further alarmed that the proportion of emergency food parcels provided to children is higher in Northern Ireland than any other part of the UK; is concerned by the recent report on child poverty from the Public Accounts Committee, which found that delivery of the child poverty strategy has been characterised by failure; recognises that an adequate standard of living is essential for children’s physical, social and developmental needs; calls on the Minister for Communities to urgently publish the new anti-poverty strategy; and further calls on the Minister to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to create a progressive social security system that better supports families with children. — [Ms Mulholland.]

Which amendment was:

Leave out all after "developmental needs;" and insert:

"welcomes the commitment of the Minister for Communities to delivering a new anti-poverty strategy; calls on the Minister to urgently bring that draft strategy to the Executive for consideration, with view to launching a public consultation on the proposals; and further calls on the Minister to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to create a progressive social security system that better supports families with children" — [Mr Kingston.]

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Hello. The next Member to speak is Ciara Ferguson.

Ms Ferguson: Poverty does not take away just material things; it forces people to make impossible choices between paying housing costs, paying heating and other utility bills and putting food on the table. Poverty chips away at the belief that tomorrow could be better than today. It steals opportunities, potential and dreams. One in five children here lives in poverty. We have a duty to realise, for them all, real hope for the future. As was stated in the Audit report on child poverty in March, there has been little sustained reduction in almost a decade.

I thank colleagues for tabling today's motion and for the focus that it rightly gives to people who need and deserve a much fairer social security system. To end poverty, hunger and food insecurity, we must tackle the root causes of poverty: rising costs, including for food and essentials; unjustifiable practices by our big corporations, including "skimpflation"; housing and childcare prices, alongside a low-wage economy; and an inadequate British social security system that has placed a real income squeeze on thousands of people, workers and families.

It is no surprise that the Trussell Trust has reported that, in the past five years, usage of emergency food parcels for children has increased by 90%. I have met Karen and Bethany from the Foyle Network Foundation in my constituency. They alerted us to the fact that, since the same period last year — April to September — there has been an 8% increase. In the past year, the Foyle Network Foundation has supported over 9,000 adults and over 4,000 children. If inadequate social security cannot supplement income, pressures will, unsurprisingly, be felt most by those living with a disability, carers, parents and children. We are aware of the national parent survey, which found that two fifths of respondents — parents — were rationing food; 35% were struggling financially; and almost one in five was getting themselves into debt and skipping meals.

We cannot overstate the impact of poverty, hunger and hardship on our children, who have to skip school and miss out on extracurricular activities. They carry a weight of worry on their shoulders. Together, with many organisations, I want to be clear that inaction denies thousands of children a chance. We have a duty to end child poverty and the reliance on food banks for current and future generations.

On that note, let us look at the barriers that need to be broken. We must tackle existing income inequality and target resources to those most in need. As in the Programme for Government, we must ensure that children, young people and those on low incomes are at the forefront of everything that we do across every Department. We need to agree a plan for the effective implementation of the Children’s Services Co-operation Act 2015. We must push for an "essentials guarantee" to protect people from going without essentials. We must mitigate the cruel two-child limit and strengthen existing welfare mitigations. We need to increase the awareness of discretionary support and lobby for an increase in local housing allowances. We must publish and implement the anti-poverty strategy, which must have a clear direction, monitoring and time-bound targets. That is all about providing a social safety net that helps people to bounce back from setbacks. The motion presents an opportunity to get it right this time.

I thank the incredible range of organisations, including the Foyle Network Foundation; the Trussell Trust; the Child Poverty Action Group; the Child Poverty Alliance; Save the Children; Action for Children; the Churches Trust, where I worked for 15 years to deliver food parcels to families; and the wide range of community and voluntary groups and individuals who give their time, commitment, compassion and energy to bring smiles to children and give families so much hope.

Ms Nicholl: I thank my colleague Sian Mulholland for proposing the motion and for the humanity with which she delivered her speech. I pay tribute to the sector, which has done so much to educate us on how we talk about such issues as politicians. The work that it does to support people and inform policy cannot be overestimated.

I will focus my remarks on my constituency of South Belfast, which I share with my colleague Paula Bradshaw. People think of South Belfast as a prosperous area, with the big houses on the Malone Road and restaurants and shops, but that image often belies the truth for many. The South Belfast Foodbank has been a crucial lifeline for families and individuals during times of food insecurity since its establishment in 2014. With all the good work that it does, the demand for its services has risen drastically in recent years, which reflects a broader worrying trend across Northern Ireland. In 2023, the South Belfast Foodbank received 2,946 referrals for food assistance. In 2024, that number surged by 17%, reaching 3,460 referrals. That dramatic increase highlights the ever-growing number of people in South Belfast who find themselves struggling to cover the basics of food, heating and the essential costs of living.

That trend, as has been highlighted today, affects communities across Northern Ireland, but one of the most troubling aspects is its severe impact on children. It also impacts on children who are seeking asylum. Figures from the Trussell Trust and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation show that child poverty in Northern Ireland is at an alarmingly high level, with the number of emergency food parcels provided to children having increased by 90% over the past five years. That figure is truly devastating. Even worse, the figures from the Trussell Trust cannot explain the scale of food bank use across Northern Ireland, as those figures reflect only the food banks in the Trussell community network, not the dozens of independent food aid providers and community groups that also provide emergency food in our community, such as the Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, those at Forward South who recently established the social supermarket and many others.

Mr Dickson: I thank the Member for giving way. To add to her comment about the organisations that go beyond the basics of providing food through the Trussell Trust and others, I commend to the Member and the House other organisations such as the Carrickfergus BabyBank in my East Antrim constituency. It provides for families' basic needs as new children join them or as children are in family groups. The Carrickfergus BabyBank does essential work by delivering equipment, food, nappies and cleaning supplies.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: The Member has an extra minute.

Ms Nicholl: Thank you. Yes, absolutely. There is something almost Victorian about how those institutions have become institutionalised. We met people earlier at the round table that Sian and Kellie hosted. One woman who works in a childcare setting talked about how mothers come in without nappies for their children, so they have to rely on donations of whatever size they can get. What sort of society are we living in where children do not have even nappies?

Organisations such as the South Belfast Foodbank did not come into existence by accident. It was a direct response to the increasing poverty in the local community. City Church Belfast, which is in the Holylands, felt compelled to act, as its leaders and volunteers were witnessing an ever-changing demography, with many newcomer families coming in who were already facing multiple layers of disadvantage and marginalisation. There was also the emergence of hostels housing people who are battling drug addiction, those who have been recently released from prison or those who live with major multiple underlying health conditions that prevent them working. People in that community saw that there was a real need to support those who were in dire need. Since then, the South Belfast Foodbank has become an essential service, meeting the immediate needs of thousands of families each year.

It is clear that, while food banks play a vital role in addressing the crisis, the increased demand places on them a deeper systemic issue, which I have discussed. Bruce Gardiner-Crehan, who is the coordinator of the South Belfast Foodbank, put it so well. He said:

"We should not have to exist, but with increasing rents and the cost of utilities continuing to rise, people often have no choice but to rely on food banks."

The problem is related not just to food; people need support in other ways, such as with fuel and electricity. This has become a cliché, but families have to decide between feeding their children or keeping their home warm. That is outrageous in this day and age, and it is a decision that has become a matter of survival. As others have said, we need an anti-poverty strategy, and it needs to be fully funded and its implementation expedited.

The final point is that the people of South Belfast, especially our children, deserve more than having to rely on emergency food parcels. They deserve a society in which everyone has the resources and opportunities to live a healthy and fulfilling life without the worry of when and from where their next meal will come. Until that is achieved, food banks will continue to fill a gap that they were never meant to address, and that is a truth that none of us should be willing to accept or settle for.

Mr Baker: I thank the Members for tabling this important motion. Many families, children and young people are being impacted on by the increasing cost of living. Rising food, energy and transport costs are having a profoundly negative impact on many. As a result of those pressures, families with children and young people have had to cut back on the essentials. The attainment gap between children and young people who grow up in poverty and their peers starts early and lasts throughout their school years.

Early intervention and preventative action are needed urgently to help tackle child poverty. Every effort should be made to reduce the cost of sending children and young people to school and to remove the barriers faced by children and young people who live in poverty. The facts on the ground do not lie. In recent years, there has been a substantial increase in the number of parcels distributed by food banks, representing a record level of need. Families and children are over-represented in the numbers who turn to food banks.

The demand for emergency food for children and young people increases during school holidays due to extra financial pressures. In April 2023, as a result of budget cuts, funding for the school holiday food grant scheme ended. The Trussell Trust reported that it gave 49% more food parcels to families in July and August of that year.

The provision of free school meals enables many children to access a nutritious meal, which, in some cases, is their main meal of the day. That brings with it a range of physical and mental health benefits, as well as educational benefits, as it puts children in the best position to learn. I have submitted a private Member's Bill that aims to directly support children and young people entitled to free school meals and their families throughout the school holidays. Mr Durkan talked about how we should look at what we can do, so I hope that everyone can support that Bill when it is introduced. There is much work ahead of us that we must do. Important steps must be taken. Ultimately, legislation is needed to make that long-term commitment so that children who need free school meals and their families are supported to ensure that they get the nutrition that they need to fulfil their potential.

Tackling poverty, social exclusion and patterns of deprivation that are based on objective need are woven into the Good Friday Agreement. The Executive need to work together across all Departments, as that requirement was outlined in that agreement.

I look forward to the day when food banks and emergency food parcels are a thing of the past and we collectively end holiday hunger.


3.45 pm

Mr Gaston: Having been blessed with three young boys, I know all too well the increasing costs of rearing a family in this day and age. Not only are nappies expensive but the cost of buying fresh food to ensure that children have the best start is steadily on the rise. Like all other Members, I agree that it would be better if the service were not required, but, sadly for many, a food bank has become a critical service that provides many people with a lifeline for them and their family when they find themselves in difficulty.

Charity will always have a role to play in every society. Christ himself reminded his disciples:

"ye have the poor always with you",

but, while government can and should ease the problem of poverty, we will never be able to legislate it out of existence. There is nothing shameful about using a food bank or having one. In criticising the need for food banks, there is a danger that Members create a stigma that need not be there. Food banks are a testament to the community spirit to help our neighbours, and they should be praised as such rather than being seen as a failure of government or society to support those who use them.

Prior to Christmas, I made a Member's statement in the House, the aim of which was to highlight the vital service that food banks provide and to call for those who have been blessed beyond their needs to donate where possible, as well as to praise the work of the many volunteers who ensure that food banks are able to meet people at their point of need. North Antrim has two main Trussell Trust food banks servicing the area, with further satellite stations at churches throughout the constituency. All the main food banks, while they have a staff member employed to oversee compliance and distribution, rely heavily on volunteers.

I have worked closely with the Ballymena food bank based at Green Pastures Church and have seen the heart that the team has to go above and beyond to help people. That is a testament to their Christian faith. Before today's debate, I asked them whether they had a message that they would like me to convey to Members and what it would be. They highlighted the fact that pressure on food banks is increasing and the fact that working families and, in particular, working single-parent households who receive no government benefits increasingly struggle with household bills. Tellingly, they report that parents struggle to feed their children during school holidays, with a marked increase in families attending the food bank during the summer and half-term breaks. As the cost of living increases, people no longer have a rainy day fund, and, thus, when they are faced with an exceptional bill, such as for a boiler breakdown, they have no choice but to attend the food bank to feed themselves and their children until their next pay day.

Members, there are many things that the Executive can do collectively to help families with young children, such as assistance with childcare or a cap on school uniform costs, but what we never hear much talk about is the steady increase in rates and the burden and stress that that puts on families. All these ideas are great, but the money has to come from somewhere to fund them. When approaching the issue of rates, we need to be aware of the extra pressures that increases will place on families who are already struggling. One of my many frustrations when I was in local government was the attitude of some councillors when setting the rate. They were using the ratepayer as a cash cow rather than funding a service to reflect the needs of those whom they served.

In the Mid and East Antrim Borough Council area in 2023-24, for example, a ratepayer with a house with a capital value of £150,000 was billed £1,451. In 2024-25, the same ratepayer is paying £1,551 for the same services. We are all good at contributing to debates such as this, but, when it comes to making decisions to protect our people when striking rates etc, there is much less enthusiasm to cut our cloth accordingly.

Mr Carroll: The highest rate of child poverty in the North is in my constituency of West Belfast, where, disgracefully, almost one in three children is living in poverty. Child poverty exists because poverty exists, and poverty exists because capitalism exists. Capitalism will never provide the jobs or resources that all of us need to live and feed our families. Poverty is not just the unfair and cruel end result —. [Interruption.]

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: That was not me. [Laughter.]

Mr Carroll: I thought that it was an intervention. No problem.

Poverty is not just the unfair and cruel end result of capitalism but a public health emergency that hits children hardest. Locally, the rate of children growing up in relative poverty grew from 18% in 2021 to 24% in 2023, so it is clearly going in the wrong direction. We are all familiar with the child poverty statistics, but there is one clear conclusion: rising rates of child poverty are a sure sign of a state that is in rapid decline. The Stormont Executive have accepted child poverty as unfortunate but, effectively, inevitable.

The de facto government response to widespread poverty has been to outsource responsibility for caring for people to food banks. Those who run and volunteer in our food banks provide practical and emotional support to thousands of families each year. Edel Diamond, manager of the South-West Food Bank in my constituency, stated:

"It is clear to us that the system is broken. While we strive to help others, and help them to maintain their dignity as much as we possibly can, the system continually works against us."

No truer words have been spoken. Most of the people who work or volunteer in our food banks do not want to be in the business. They recognise that reliance on food banks to meet people's immediate and basic needs is totally unsustainable. It is nothing more than a sticking plaster, and it is no substitute for a long-term, serious plan to end poverty for good. While we wait for that long-term plan, our social security system constantly fails the needs of families across the North. According to the Child Poverty Action Group, 75% of children in poverty have at least one parent who is working in at least one job. That busts a popular myth that work is a guaranteed way out of poverty. The state is, essentially, subsidising our low-wage economy. That is how employers get away with paying people a pittance.

We cannot talk about our broken social security system without mentioning the two-child limit. A total of 16% of children in west Belfast are impacted by the two-child limit. Those children lose out on essential benefits just because they happen to have been born into a larger family. On average, affected families lose out on £3,200 per year per child, which is robbery that is being passed off as something else. Capping a child's entitlement to social security is absolutely inhumane. We do not limit a child's access to healthcare or education on the basis of the size of the family that they were born into, so why do we do it for social security? The two-child limit is a perfect example of the warped austerity logic introduced by the Tories as part of their war against the poor and upheld by a cowardly new Labour Government. It is a political choice, and the Stormont Executive's decision not to mitigate the austerity choices is also a political choice and a reminder that the Executive parties here voted for welfare reform in a grubby deal to cut taxes for corporations. Do not forget about that. Executive parties also cut the school holiday food grant and refuse to roll out universal free school meals, despite the huge public demand and need for them. Let us judge them by their actions and the Minister by his actions, rather than words in the Chamber today.

As the Deputy Speaker, Mr Aiken, said, the Executive are once again being taken to court over their failure to follow through on their promise to adopt an anti-poverty strategy after nearly 20 years. What is going on? I have no doubt that the Minister will tell us that he plans to present a paper to the Executive in the coming weeks. How many children, Minister, will sit in freezing homes in the coming weeks? How many children will go to bed hungry in the coming weeks while you and your Department refuse to act? Rather than challenging income inequality and taxing the wealthy, those in power tell us that we need to abide by fiscal rules set by London that see endless brutal cuts to public services. Meanwhile, the wealth of the world's billionaires grew by £5·7 billion a day last year. Why should that money continue to line the pockets of the wealthy while hundreds of thousands of children across the North go without food in their stomach or a roof over their head? Despite what Executive parties hell-bent on implementing austerity may tell us, child poverty is not inevitable. It is time to make it history.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Gerry. The next speaker will be the Minister for Communities, Mr Gordon Lyons, who will respond to the debate. Minister, you have up to 15 minutes.

Mr Lyons (The Minister for Communities): Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I begin by thanking Sian Mulholland, the Member for North Antrim, for using the opportunity, through the motion, to highlight the importance of the issue. It is a shame on our society that so many people are being forced to use food parcels. I say clearly that I am determined to do all that I can and all that is in my gift to help those who are in need and to reduce the necessity for such help. We have seen, as was said, a 90% increase in usage over the past five years. Although, since last year, there has been a 13% decrease in the number of people needing to avail themselves of food banks, it is still concerning.

Of course, this is about the wider issue of child poverty. Parents, grandparents and guardians have to present for different reasons. Sometimes, it is because of benefit delays, benefit changes, income not covering basic costs, changes in circumstances or family breakdown. People have to avail themselves of the services for different reasons. Often, unfortunately, a sense of shame, embarrassment and, perhaps, even stigma comes with that. Having spoken to people who use food banks, I have heard them say things like, "I never thought that I would need to use a food bank". They are people who are in employment. They have jobs but, because of their particular circumstances, have had to use a food bank. They even talk about the shame that they feel when having to use the public entrances to some of the buildings, because they think that others will think less of them because they have to use a food bank.

I want to outline my commitment to tackling the issue. Every Member who is doing their job properly will see for themselves every week the impact that child poverty has. I see it every week, and it is a scourge, not only because of the immediate impacts that it has on our society but because of the long-term consequences. We know that it can result in poorer outcomes in the education, health and well-being of our people. Those are generational problems.

First, I thank all those who work in the sector and do so much to help people in need. They help those who need support not only by providing the essentials but, often, by offering a listening ear, talking to people and signposting them to other help. The situation has an impact on those who serve in that way as well, so we should thank them for what they have done.

Secondly, I highlight my commitment to the anti-poverty strategy and its delivery. The Executive's anti-poverty strategy, which is in the final stages of development, will be a key component in tackling poverty. My officials are engaging with their colleagues in all other Departments through a cross-departmental working group, so that we can develop an action plan to underpin our anti-poverty strategy. The House will know that I have asked for that work to be prioritised and expedited. I previously said to the House that it was my intention to get the strategy to the Executive by the end of this financial year, but I can let the House know today that it will be with the Executive in February — within a matter of weeks.

It is important that the anti-poverty strategy is credible. It must be deliverable, it must make a tangible difference in people's lives, and, most important, it must recognise how we can get people out of poverty. Work is absolutely essential to that.

Following my initial letter to colleagues in autumn 2024, I wrote in December to seek Departments' strategic input to the draft strategy, including policies and actions that will contribute to the delivery of the three key pillars. The majority of departmental inputs were received over the first weeks in January, and officials are incorporating them into a revised draft for my consideration.

Worryingly, the most recent statistics published by my Department show a significant increase in the number of children and working-age adults who were living in poverty in 2022-23. Dealing with poverty means not only dealing with low incomes: ensuring that high-skilled and meaningful jobs are available for everyone will be key to dealing with poverty in a sustainable manner. It will also involve us in tackling issues such as educational attainment gaps and health inequalities.

While we address those issues, it is essential that we ensure that our society and economy provide opportunities for the future. Much work has been progressed to date that we can take forward and on which we can build. However, it is also important that we learn from what has gone before. In that context, I welcome the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report on child poverty. It will be included as part of the broader anti-poverty strategy, because child poverty does not exist in a vacuum. It is essential that we acknowledge that tacking child poverty means addressing wider issues of disadvantage in our society.

We simply cannot lift children out of poverty without addressing the issues that affect their parents, grandparents, carers and all the other people who support them throughout their lives.


4.00 pm

An anti-poverty strategy that also addresses child poverty is likely to have a lifespan of 10 years. Given that the strategy will impact on a generation of our population, we need to make sure that it includes the right priorities, the right actions and the right interventions. Given the many competing priorities that we face, it is essential that we focus our efforts on the areas that will yield the greatest benefits. We are taking this work forward at pace, and my officials are engaging with their colleagues in all other Departments. through a cross-departmental working group, to work towards developing an action plan that will underpin our anti-poverty strategy.

Today's motion also calls for:

"a progressive social security system that better supports families with children."

Responsibility for the majority of the social security system lies, ultimately, with DWP. Since becoming Minister, I have engaged with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other DWP Ministers to make the case for a progressive social security system that is better designed to meet the needs of children. I will continue to make the argument for that.

I recognise that there are steps that we can and must take at a local level as well. For example, my Department recently completed a comprehensive review of the current welfare mitigation schemes. On 5 December, I took the decision to announce that all existing welfare mitigations would be extended to March 2028. That extension will provide reassurance to people in receipt of that support who may have been concerned about their future financial stability. That is real, concrete action, and I will continue to work alongside my Executive colleagues to tackle poverty across our society. Together, we will identify and implement effective and sustainable actions that will address the immediate pressures faced by children living in poverty and their families, and, through developing an anti-poverty strategy, we will seek to provide long-term solutions for their future. I have listened to the voices of concern, but we need actions, and, more than that, those actions must be the right actions, taken in order to make a real and sustainable difference to people's lives. That is my focus.

I noted with interest the comments of the proposer of the motion about the statistics in Scotland. That is an issue to debate on another day. I have some disagreements with the facts that she provided. According to the latest official statistics, the percentage of children living in relative poverty in Scotland increased from 23% in 2021-22 to 26% in 2022-23. She mentioned, in particular, the impact of the child payment. I do not believe that we have evidence yet that it has been effective, which is why we need to focus on the right actions and make sure that we take steps that actually make a difference.

The concerns expressed today illustrate the seriousness with which the Assembly views the issues involved. I think that we share a common purpose today. I look forward to working with Executive colleagues, Members of the Assembly and our partners in wider society in a coordinated and effective way as we move forward and change for the better and for the betterment of the lives of children in Northern Ireland.

A number of other comments were raised during the debate that are worthy of discussion. First, it is important to note that we are on the same page on a number of issues. We previously discussed the impact of the two-child limit, how unfair that is and the real impact that it has on families. We talked about the importance of affordable childcare — I completely agree about that — and about the five-week wait for those on universal credit. It is worth highlighting, once more, the fantastic work that the Trussell Trust and others do. I again give a special mention to Christians Against Poverty for its work, especially on debt advice, and for the help that it gives to those who experience debt.

I want to address a few other comments. I take issue, in particular, with a comment made by Mr Durkan about the timing of the winter fuel payment. I believe that he was trying to present it as some sort of great revelation that the payments would not be made until the end of March this year. I have been honest and upfront with the House. The statement that I made in November last year was very clear about the timing. I was upfront and honest about the timings. It is disingenuous of the Member to suggest that, in some way, we have not been able to achieve any targets that we have set.

Mr Durkan: I thank the Minister for giving way. The Minister might recall that I was critical at the time that March was given as an end date for the roll-out of those payments, which were due to start in December. It is fair enough to say that nothing has been done to date, even though we have assurances that officials are working at pace. Bear in mind that the £100 payment, you assured us, was the quickest way to do things. If this is the quickest, I would hate to see the slowest.

Mr Lyons: That is simply not accurate. I never said that the payments would start in December. I always said that they would be made by the end of March. [Inaudible.]

Mr Lyons: I said that they would be made by the end of March, and we have not yet reached that stage. The payments are all being done together. It is wrong of him to feign surprise in some way that the payments have not been made yet, when I was always crystal clear with the House. It is very important that that is taken on board.

There is also something else that we, as a House, need to do. It is important, as we will see in the anti-poverty strategy, that we do everything that we can to increase people's incomes, provide more work, provide more opportunities and break down barriers to work. We also need to think about people's outgoings. It is really important that, when we make decisions in the House, we understand that they will have consequences for people out there. The decisions that we make around energy, the decisions that we make around the cost of living and the decisions that we make that can make it more difficult to build homes or to get essentials: those decisions have an impact and put pressure on people's budgets. In the past, we have not always been aware of that, and it is something that we should keep in mind.

When I introduce the anti-poverty strategy, it will be clear: we will do everything that we can to prevent people getting into poverty; we will help people who find themselves in poverty; and, importantly, we will make sure that there is an escape route for people.

Mr Carroll: I thank the Minister for giving way. I appreciate that he is finalising the strategy. Does he have any indication or even an estimate, at this stage, about what sort of money will be attached to the anti-poverty strategy?

Mr Lyons: Ultimately, that will be a decision for the Executive to make. However, I am clear that, if we are real about tackling the issue, the appropriate money needs to be attached to the strategy. It is not just about the individual actions that we can take; it is about everything that we do in the Government. We need to make it as easy as possible for people to escape poverty and make sure that we help those who find themselves in poverty. I hope that Ministers will take it seriously and that we will allocate the necessary resources to make sure that we can help those who are in need.

I am grateful that the motion was brought to the House today. I am determined that we will take action on the issue for the betterment of everyone in Northern Ireland, but particularly for those children who are suffering.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Minister. I call Maurice Bradley to make his winding-up speech on the amendment. I advise you, Maurice, that you have five minutes.

Mr Bradley: Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I also rise to highlight the critical issue of child poverty and the growing reliance on emergency food provision in Northern Ireland. It is a matter of moral and social urgency that demands our immediate attention.

Recent statistics underscore the stark reality: child poverty remains alarmingly high, with many families trapped in a cycle of financial insecurity, exacerbated by rising living costs and inadequate welfare support. That financial strain directly impacts on children's nutrition, education and overall well-being, perpetuating intergenerational poverty. Added to that, the impact on business and employees of the worst UK Government on record has exacerbated poverty for the least well-off in society.

Emergency food banks have become a lifeline for many. However, the reliance on this support is a symptom of systemic failings. In the past year, a significant percentage of universal credit recipients reported running out of food in the previous month, reflecting insufficient benefit levels to meet basic needs. The last child poverty strategy failed — and failed miserably. Therefore, there cannot be another rush job. Any new strategy must have a time frame and a measurable outcome. In other words, let us not have a strategy for the sake of a strategy and then forget about it. When the new anti-poverty strategy is agreed, it must be revisited annually against set targets to make sure that it evolves as society evolves to ensure success and future-proofing. Measures that may help include raising universal credit rates to reflect actual living costs, ensuring that families have enough for basic needs; implementing comprehensive child poverty reduction plans, with measurable goals and timelines; looking at increased funding for local organisations addressing poverty, such as food banks, housing assistance and employment training programmes; and expanding eligibility and streamlining application processes to avoid barriers.

Vineyard Compassion, Ballyrashane Presbyterian Church, Building Ballysally Together, Millburn community cafe and other faith-based and community organisations in my constituency work with supermarkets tirelessly in their community. I am sure that the rest of Northern Ireland has similar community-based work programmes.

Some Members raised very important issues. Colm Gildernew stated that food insecurity was unacceptable in 2025. He also talked about the 143% rise in the use of food banks. Andy Allen highlighted the grim reality of the past five years and called for more to help families in need to support their rights. He praised the many organisations that are helping to address the growing need. Mark Durkan said that 190,000 children in Northern Ireland are in child poverty. He also highlighted the despicable rise in loan shark activity, which further exacerbates poverty. Ciara Ferguson talked about some of the harsh choices that people have to make and how they are trapped in poverty by making decisions that can border on the illegal. She also called for a review of housing and for a multi-agency response across the Executive. Kate Nicholl gave a comprehensive review of the timeline that led to the current situation and reminded us that it is children who are suffering most. Danny Baker highlighted the cost of living, which affects thousands across Northern Ireland. Timothy Gaston asked for councils, when increasing rates, to take note of the effect that the rate burden has on the cost of living for their constituents.

I have highlighted some of the salient issues that have been raised here today. Although I support the motion, I recommend the DUP amendment to the House.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: The next Member to speak is Kellie Armstrong, who will conclude on the motion. Kellie, you have 10 minutes.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank everyone who has spoken on the motion today. Alliance proposed the motion because this is one of the key issues affecting society today. If we can create a solution — if we can lift children out of the social disadvantage of poverty — we can change society in Northern Ireland.

I pay tribute to all the food bank providers across Northern Ireland who help people when they are at their most vulnerable and most in need. Thanks, too, to all the people across Northern Ireland who very kindly donate to those food banks. However, I hate the fact that we have food banks in Northern Ireland. We have people who have to depend on those food banks in order to feed their children. As others have said, 190,000 children are living in poverty. Many of those children are eating food that is donated. If everything were wonderful and working in our government, children would not have to depend on donated food in order to eat.

It is very difficult for me to understand exactly what it is like for someone who is living in such poverty that they have to cut the mould off bread to make their child's sandwiches. I heard that this morning from a parent at the round table that my colleague Sian arranged. Imagine what that is like for the child. Imagine what it is like for a child to see their parent doing that. The child might feel guilty for having a birthday, or at Christmas, because they know that getting a present is going to cost their family money and take away from the family household income. Some children are embarrassed to tell their mum or dad about school trips because they know that it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for the family to be able to afford that amount of money.

People want dignity, stability and fairness, and if we are to be fair to all our children in Northern Ireland, we have to give them a place to live that is safe and enough food that they can eat well, grow well and be healthy. We do not do that at the moment. We talk about the best start in life. Are we giving our children in Northern Ireland the best start in life?


4.15 pm

Not all of this falls to the Department for Communities and Minister Gordon Lyons. It falls to a lot of different Departments, and that is why it is so important to ensure that all the Executive sign up to the anti-poverty strategy — the Minister talked about introducing that in February — and commit to meeting targets and delivering on timescales. Mr Bradley was very good at summarising what a lot of other Members said in the debate, which saves me from doing it. He said that those targets and timescales are key. The last strategy failed because there were no targets or timescales. It may not be within the lifetime of this mandate, but, certainly within the next mandate, we should be seeing differences for people. To be honest, that will take a long time to come forward, and it makes me very sad to see that.

Some actions have already been introduced. For example, the Minister has confirmed that the welfare mitigations that are currently in place will continue for a period of years. I believe that, as part of the strategy, the two-child limit is an important matter that must be addressed with DWP. When we cost out the savings that could be made by removing that two-child limit, we might consider it to be beneficial for Northern Ireland and consider adding it to the welfare mitigations going forward.

The Minister talked about the scourge of poverty and its long-term consequences. This morning, we heard from parents who talked about the difficulty of seeing that cyclical poverty happening. They struggle so much with the amount of income that they have in their house and with feeding their children that their children have mental stress. Having seen their family struggle so much, those children have real difficulties with money as they move to adulthood.

The anti-poverty strategy must include the three pillars that the Minister talked about and that my colleague Sian Mulholland mentioned. The Minister talked about the strategy having a lifespan of over 10 years. Those 10 years need to see actions, and I reiterate that we need targets and timescales to make sure that that is appropriate. Those targets and time frames are some of the things that I would love to see in the public consultation that is mentioned in the amendment tabled by the DUP, which Alliance will support.

For us to make sure that the Department for Work and Pensions has enough information about the impact that its two-child limit is having in Northern Ireland, we need to take to it information on and evidence of the effect of poverty on children. Wonderful reports have come through — not wonderful; they are quite distressing to read — from the Trussell Trust, the Public Accounts Committee and the Northern Ireland Audit Office. Children should not think it normal that they have to go to a food bank.

I have to say that, in my constituency, my office is one of the offices that distributes most of the food vouchers. When we have people in the office, we treat them with dignity. We know that they are very nervous, and we try to help them by showing as much respect as we can. However, we know that their being there is the start of or maybe midway through a journey and that they are living in absolute destitution. As was mentioned today, they are doing that because of child support debt and paramilitary and illegal lending. The percentages that paramilitaries are whopping on to people are unbelievable. People are repaying benefits loans, budgeting loans and things like that. The amount that they have to pay out of their benefits to make up the difference between housing benefit and rent is incredible. They are then hit with the cost of school trips, school uniforms, schools constantly asking for a pound for this and 50p for that and so on. It is never-ending. We need to review exactly how much parents are having to spend. Also, walk into a supermarket and look at how much it costs to buy things specifically for children, such as nappies, baby formula, wipes, toys and all of that.

Ms Mulholland: Will the Member take an intervention?

Ms K Armstrong: I certainly will.

Ms Mulholland: Does the Member agree that that is exacerbated in rural areas, where the lack of choice and lack of access to supermarkets and lower prices make things even worse?

Ms K Armstrong: I agree absolutely with my colleague Sian. The difficulty in rural areas is that people who do not have access to a local supermarket often go to a local garage that happens to have a shop attached to it, and the prices there are maybe two or three times higher than those in a large supermarket.

All that is all while we have children coming through our education system and trying to be children.

Is it fair for them? Are they being treated with dignity? Do they have stability? I do not think so. I am really delighted that, today, we are speaking with one voice in the House and are all in agreement that an anti-poverty strategy is needed. We all want to see it introduced as soon as possible. We want it to be the right strategy, and we want to make sure that it contains time frames and targets. It needs to be published quickly, however, and we need to have buy-in from the entire Executive. The Alliance Party is on the Executive with other parties, and we say to all our Executive colleagues, "We need buy-in for this". We also need accountability and to make sure that a mechanism is in place to enable us to check how the strategy is working.

Lots of parents out there are very concerned about the impact of poverty on their children. Hopefully, they will have an opportunity, through the public consultation, to look at what is being proposed and to have their say on what they think of the proposals. After all, they are the people who have to manage budgets, who have to see their children going without and who have to manage the expectations of those children in a household that is living in poverty.

It is very sad that we cannot copy what Scotland has done. Its approach, especially for children with disabilities, is much better than ours. That is because ours is framed on a Budget that is extraordinarily difficult. Although I welcome the Minister's announcement about the anti-poverty strategy, my concern is that it will not come into being until after the Budget for the next financial year has been set. What actions will we therefore see coming out of it? Will it be another year before anything happens?

This debate comes at a difficult and emotional time, because it is our children in Northern Ireland who are suffering. I ask everyone to support our motion and the amendment so that we can make the lives of children better.

Question, That the amendment be made, put and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly expresses grave alarm that the number of emergency food parcels distributed by Trussell food banks to children in Northern Ireland increased by 90% during the past five years; is further alarmed that the proportion of emergency food parcels provided to children is higher in Northern Ireland than any other part of the UK; is concerned by the recent report on child poverty from the Public Accounts Committee, which found that delivery of the child poverty strategy has been characterised by failure; recognises that an adequate standard of living is essential for children’s physical, social and developmental needs; welcomes the commitment of the Minister for Communities to delivering a new anti-poverty strategy; calls on the Minister to urgently bring that draft strategy to the Executive for consideration, with view to launching a public consultation on the proposals; and further calls on the Minister to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to create a progressive social security system that better supports families with children.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Members, please take your ease for a moment.

Miss McIlveen: I beg to move

That this Assembly expresses concern that proposals to address disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products were not included in the recent Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs 'Rethinking Our Resources: Measures for Climate Action and a Circular Economy in NI' consultation, despite making up around 4% of residual waste; highlights the impact that reducing residual waste capacity per household will have on those who dispose of such products, as well as the amount of recyclable material lost to landfill or incineration; recognises that a nappy collection scheme would support delivery against the 70% recycling target by 2030 set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022; calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to promote reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposable nappies; and further calls on the Minister, drawing on best practice in other jurisdictions, to develop a strategy in conjunction with local councils for the collection and recycling of disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products in Northern Ireland.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Michelle. The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. An amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List, and the Business Committee has agreed that 15 minutes will be added to the total time. Michelle, please open the debate on the motion.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. The motion seeks two outcomes: first, that the Minister engages with local councils to develop a strategy for the collection and recycling of disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products, and, secondly, that the Minister and his Department take an active role in the promotion of reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposable nappies. The aim of both those outcomes is to reduce and, ultimately, remove disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products from our residual waste. As we are all aware, the Assembly passed the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, which requires that Northern Ireland collectively recycles at least 70% of its waste by 2030. We are just five years away from that date. In the 2023-24 period, councils in Northern Ireland recycled 50·5% of waste. That was the first time that such a percentage had been achieved in three years. In the previous year, we had recycled 49·7% of our waste. Given those figures, the idea of a 70% recycling rate is ambitious to say the least.

Recently, the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs undertook a waste consultation. It was suggested that we reduce grey bin capacity either by providing smaller grey bins or by moving to, at least, grey bin collections every third week. It was suggested that, by implementing those proposals, we would reach the 70% recycling target. In fact, the Minister has said that he wants us to reach 74% through the proposals that were set out in his consultation. In its amendment, the Alliance Party calls on us to welcome the consultation. I point out to the Alliance Party that the consultation refers to developing non-statutory guidance on absorbent hygiene products. That simply does not go far enough. I consider that to be a flaw. I know of at least one council, with which the Minister and I both have a relationship — Ards and North Down Borough Council — that highlighted that in its response to the consultation.

While the motion deals with reusable and disposable products, and various types of reusable nappies are on the market, disposable nappies are still the most attractive option for parents. When I use the term "nappies", I include nappies for all ages as well as incontinence products. At present, the only bin that can take those disposable nappies is the grey bin, so they go straight to landfill. It has been estimated that nappy waste equates to around 3% to 4% of the residual waste that goes to our landfill sites or is shipped off for incineration. That is nearly 40,000 tons per year. To put that into some sort of context, one child may be in disposable nappies for two and a half years. Young babies will go through around 10 to 12 nappies a day, while older babies may require around six to eight each day. One child can go through 6,000 nappies in their lifetime. Of course, many parents have more than one child in nappies at a time. Parents of young children will often say that their grey bin is full by the time that it is due to be collected after two weeks. The Minister's consultation focuses on reducing grey bin capacity, either by having smaller grey bins or fewer collections. That will present a problem for those parents if the proposals are implemented. It will also present a problem for people with medical and incontinence waste. How will they manage when their bin is collected only every three to four weeks, or when their grey bin is smaller?

The problem can be addressed while helping Northern Ireland to take a step towards achieving the 70% recycling target that was imposed by the Assembly. It is something that has been considered by the part of the United Kingdom that has the best recycling target. Wales operates an opt-in nappy collection service through its local authorities and has reached a 66% recycling rate. It has done that without all its authorities collecting such waste. Currently, four do not, but, of those, Swansea Council operates a scheme through which nappies can be left at recycling centres. Where a scheme is in place, the following are collected: disposable nappies, including nappy bags and wipes; adult incontinence pads; absorbent bed sheets; disposable aprons; colostomy stoma bags and catheters; cotton wool; and plastic gloves. Those are collected either each week or fortnightly. The Welsh Government want all councils to adopt a collection and recycling scheme. Pembrokeshire County Council, which does operate a collection and recycling scheme, is the best performing local authority, having reached an amazing 73·2% recycling rate — not quite our Minister's dream goal of 74%, but close.


4.30 pm

Nappies contain recyclable materials, such as cellulose fibres and plastics, that are being thrown away in Northern Ireland. Members may be aware of the story of a trial in Wales a couple of years ago. Nappy fibres were added to the bitumen in asphalt roads that were then shown to last twice as long as other roads. Carmarthenshire County Council now resurfaces its roads with that product, hailing it as a prime example of the local circular economy in action. Nappies have been collected in Wales since 2009, and they are also recycled in Japan, the Netherlands and Canada. I would like us to adopt the wider scheme, under which we would deal with the same range of nappies and incontinence waste as places such as Wales.

In tandem with that, more needs to be done to encourage the use of reusable nappies as an alternative. I appreciate that that will not suit all busy parents; however, at present, the schemes run by many councils are limited in scope and poorly promoted. According to research, reusable nappies laundered in a circular economy model are the most environmentally friendly and cost-effective option. More needs to be done to encourage parents to try reusable nappies and to support them when they use them. That needs to be guided from the centre. Consistency of approach and delivery on a larger scale are key. In Belfast and in Lisburn and Castlereagh, parents are asked to try washable nappies for free for two weeks and are offered a £30 refund on the cost of reusable nappies. In Ards and North Down, 30 people are able to avail themselves of reusable nappy kits on a two-week trial basis. The kit is returned at the end of the trial period and sanitised before being loaned to the next family. In other councils, residents are reimbursed £30 when they spend £50 or more on reusable cloth nappies. In Newry, Mourne and Down, you need to buy £60 worth of reusable cloth nappies.

If we are to remove nappy waste, which is, as I said, about 40,000 tons annually, from our residual waste bins, we need action, not guidance. We need cooperation between the Department and local authorities that is controlled centrally. I have raised the issue of a nappy collection and recycling scheme through a Member's statement and questions for written answer to the Minister. I am pleased that the Minister has said that he is open to considering such a scheme, but I was disappointed that he wanted councils to approach him about it. Given that nappy waste represents about 4% of our residual waste, I would consider it to be a key product to target in achieving our recycling goal.

Not one to shirk a challenge, I wrote to all the councils about the issue. My colleagues in Ards and North Down Borough Council passed a motion to write to the Minister to express the council's interest in working with him to develop such a scheme and to write to other councils in Northern Ireland to do likewise. While some of the motions are still going through the various stages in council, I understand that a number of councils have written to the Minister expressing their support for such a scheme. I have also discussed the feasibility of local processing with recycling bodies. The message was clear: with a supply of readily available product, it can be done.

I express my gratitude to Nicola Watson, a PhD researcher from Ulster University and a nappy waste specialist, for reaching out to me and discussing the issue following my Member's statement on the subject. Since the BBC highlighted the motion at the weekend, I have been approached by other interested parties.

The motion presents the AERA Minister with the opportunity to take a massive step towards diverting tens of thousands of tons of recyclable waste away from landfill. It is an opportunity to co-design a coherent scheme with councils. It cannot be left to councils simply to explore options, with the Department producing non-statutory guidance further down the line. There is also an opportunity for the products to be processed in Northern Ireland rather than shipped overseas, which is ultimately what will happen, if it is left to non-statutory guidance. We need firm proposals from the Department.

While I am not in total agreement with the Alliance Party's amendment, I welcome the indication that it is supportive of my motion and the actions that need to flow from it. The Members who tabled it need, perhaps, to tell their colleagues in Newry, Mourne and Down that that is the direction of travel when the council reconsiders the matter.

I look forward to the debate and the Minister's response.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: I call John Blair to move the amendment.

Mr Blair: I beg to move

Leave out all after "concern" and insert:

"that disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products make up around 4% of residual waste; welcomes the proposed new guidance for councils on expanding opportunities to recycle more materials, including nappies and other absorbent hygiene products, in the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs 'Rethinking Our Resources: Measures for Climate Action and a Circular Economy in NI' consultation; highlights the impact that reducing residual waste capacity per household will have on those who dispose of such products, as well as the amount of recyclable material lost to landfill or incineration; recognises that a nappy collection scheme would support delivery against the 70% recycling target by 2030 set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022; calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to promote reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposable nappies; and further calls on the Minister, drawing on best practice in other jurisdictions and in conjunction with local councils, to develop the new guidance for councils on expanding recycling opportunities that is proposed in the rethinking our resources consultation."

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: You will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other speakers will have five minutes. Please open the debate on the amendment.

Mr Blair: The debate is about an undeniably significant issue as we strive for a cleaner and more sustainable environment. I thank the proposer of the motion and her colleagues for bringing it to the House and highlighting a very important issue. I suspect that, as I speak, there will be a lot of similarity between what I will say and what the proposer has said, which, in fairness, does not happen often on environmental matters, but I am genuinely pleased that it is likely to happen today. Hopefully, it might lead us to an agreed position at the end of the debate. I will highlight a pathway to that as we go.

It is well documented that disposable nappies account for approximately 4% of the residual waste in Northern Ireland. The statistic might seem small, but it translates into a substantial impact on our waste management systems and environmental footprint. Every parent and carer recognises the necessity of those products for their children's health and well-being. However, while they may be convenient, we must confront the significant environmental consequences associated with their entire life cycle. In the UK, approximately 3·6 billion nappies are used each year, with around 78% of those being incinerated and as much as 22% ending up in landfill.

The materials used to make the nappies, which include a significant amount of plastic, can take hundreds of years to decompose naturally. Research from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) shows that improvements in the production of disposable nappies have resulted in a 27% reduction in their carbon footprint. While that is a commendable achievement, it is vital to recognise that using disposable nappies for just two and a half years for one child is the equivalent of driving a car for more than 1,600 miles. That highlights the urgent need for innovation in the industry and our responsibility to seek out more sustainable alternatives.

The Alliance Party supports the intention and sentiment behind the motion. However, there is a clear factual inaccuracy in the original motion that the Alliance amendment would correct. The original motion — I will refer to it again briefly later — mistakenly states:

"that proposals to address disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products were not included in the recent Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs consultation, 'Rethinking Our Resources".

A closer examination reveals that the proposals are, in fact, acknowledged under proposal number 12 in that document, which states:

" Non-Statutory Guidance will be provided to councils to expand the opportunities to recycle more materials and to embed best practice in existing services."

It includes:

"absorbent hygiene products such as nappies and incontinence pads".

By accurately understanding the consultation, we can highlight the critical need for a coordinated effort between DAERA and local councils. However, it is essential to underscore the significant responsibility that councils hold to collaborate effectively on the issue. The Department's role is to assist councils through programmes and initiatives designed to minimise the recyclable materials diverted to landfill or incineration as a result of disposable nappy use.

Miss McIlveen: Will the Member give way?

Miss McIlveen: I thank the Member for his comments. Will he accept that non-statutory guidance is not the same as developing a co-design strategy to address the issue?

Mr Blair: I thank the Member for her intervention. I will come to that point later. At this stage, I will point out that the motion does not mention the word "statutory". It talks about developing a strategy, and we know — I will refer to it later — that the Department is already bringing forward a waste management strategy.

We need to be clear that councils and their waste management structures need to lead and ensure consistency in waste management. Any change or proposals regarding the structures is a separate matter altogether. Perhaps we all, as we scrutinise the issues in this place, can work with local government colleagues to ensure frameworks and outcomes that fit with the recycling targets and are appropriate for the 21st century and its challenges.

Around the world, collaborative and innovative actions are being taken to address the issue for the sake of our environment. For example, as was referenced, Wales, a leader in recycling, is trialling the use of the fibres from disposable nappies to create roads. Such initiatives provide opportunities to explore best practice on a broader basis and develop effective strategies for recycling disposable nappies, all while meeting our net zero targets and enhancing our circular economy.

In considering the broader context, our primary objective should be to fully eliminate single-use plastics, which include disposable nappies. After reaching out to the Minister in September past, I was informed that his Department is working with other UK nations to implement a ban on the supply and sale of wet wipes containing plastics and that that would apply throughout the UK. Promoting reusable nappies falls or should fall within that initiative. The alternatives have the potential not only to lessen an environmentally damaging footprint but to provide significant financial advantages for families in the long run. Similar to how consumer habits are being shaped by the Department through initiatives like the plastic bag charge and restrictions on disposable vapes, reusable nappy products ought to be advocated as a practical substitute for disposables.

While, as I said at the start, Alliance supports the intention and sentiment of the motion to improve the collection and recycling of nappies, given its factual inaccuracies regarding consultation, we cannot fully support it without our amendment. I contend genuinely that the amendment rectifies that. I point out again that the motion makes no reference to statutory provision at all and references a strategy that is already on the way.

My Alliance colleagues and I look forward to reviewing the Department's long-awaited waste management strategy, due to be published this year. I am confident that it will begin to address the issues highlighted in the motion, particularly as regards improving our waste management systems, adopting innovative recycling solutions and promoting sustainability in our communities. In the meantime, I hope that the proposer of the motion and her colleagues can accept our amendment for the reasons outlined. The two positions are not far apart. There is an opportunity today to move forward together on the issue.

Miss Brogan: As the Sinn Féin spokesperson on environment and climate, I will speak in support of the motion.

The watchword of our time is "sustainability". We can no longer afford to maintain the endless conveyor belt of production, consumption and disposal. As we aim for net zero, habits and behaviours must change at individual, societal, commercial and governmental levels. We need to develop a truly circular economy that can be absorbed into every facet of life here and take a more holistic approach to reducing the waste that we produce and changing what we do with it.

While we welcome many of the proposals in 'Rethinking Our Resources', we should not be limited to them. We should be open to exploring new and innovative suggestions for reducing waste. It is crucial that we look at best practice around the world and see how other countries, many of which produce vastly more waste than we do, tackle that challenge and implement circular economy policies. As we strive to meet emissions and recycling targets, we must remain receptive to any initiatives that can help us to transition to a sustainable future.

Mr Butler: The motion and the amendment recognise the significant environmental impact of disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products, which account for, as has been said, 4% our residual waste. There are key differences in each approach, but both have merit and deserve consideration.

The motion highlights the absence of proposals in the recent 'Rethinking Our Resources' consultation to tackle the issue and calls for a comprehensive strategy led by the Minister and developed in conjunction with councils to address collection and recycling. It also emphasises promoting reusable nappies to reduce waste. The amendment, while maintaining the emphasis on reducing waste, shifts the focus towards expanding guidance to councils within the existing framework of the consultation. That would align efforts to support local authorities in recycling the products without explicitly demanding a separate strategy.

Both approaches underscore the need for urgent action, recognising that a nappy collection scheme could significantly contribute to meeting, as mentioned, 74% of the 2030 recycling target, which is set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022.

However, we must ensure that those efforts reflect the broader challenges facing climate action and the circular economy.


4.45 pm

The Northern Ireland Audit Office review of waste management reminds us of the inefficiencies in our existing system. Tackling residual waste from nappies requires leadership, innovation and collaboration. We should look across other jurisdictions, including the EU and its push for ambitious strategies on single-use menstrual products, nappies and wet wipes, to inform our approach here in Northern Ireland. While I acknowledge the role of local councils, I believe that it is the Minister who must lead in addressing the issue, ensuring that resources, guidance and best practice are made available.

With five children of my own, and having fostered quite a few nappy-wearing infants, I have experience of the convenience of disposable nappies and of the task of using terry towelling and safety pins. There is certainly merit in, and I understand why parents will opt for, what has been measured as being the slightly more environmentally unfriendly disposable nappies, but there is the pressure of convenience to attest to as well. We know that, in the UK, around 3·6 billion nappies are disposed of annually, with around 22% ending up in landfill. We need to tackle that and do something different. Addressing this often messy issue is not optional: it is essential to protecting our environment. As the mover of the amendment said, we could move collegiately, collaboratively and decisively to deliver a strategy that works for households, councils and, importantly, our planet.

Mr O'Toole: I should preface my remarks on the motion by saying that it is a very important subject. It is an important subject because it affects parents and people who care for young children and also people who use the other forms of recyclable sanitary or medical products that were listed by the proposer of the motion. I am someone who changes nappies, literally on a daily basis. I deal with nappies in the morning; I deal with them in the evening; and I will deal with more nappies in a couple of months' time because I am expecting my third child. This is genuinely an important subject, and I welcome the fact that there has been a look at it. I also welcome Nicola Watson's research. There are legitimate questions, and the points are well made.

There is a bit of a secular or theological debate about the references to this in the waste strategy. It is entirely legitimate that we move towards trying to increase the recycling of these products, particularly when they are recyclable material. Many of the people who are using these products would like to see them recycled more. I have no problem with that, but I want to make a couple of broader points. Having said that the subject is legitimate and important — I am sure that the Minister will update us on his waste strategy and how these ideas and concepts can feed into that — and, as I have said, as someone who changes nappies on a many-times-daily basis and cares a lot about recycling, I would like to be able to recycle those products, were that a possibility. However, I must point out, as the leader of the Opposition in the Northern Ireland Assembly, that it is about 4.47 pm on a sitting day, in the midst of a health service crisis and a range of other things, when the Executive are less than 50% — less than halfway — through their legislative programme for last year. If Joe Bloggs or the average punter who sent us here was to tune into this debate, in the middle of a Monday, to find out what we are debating, they would see that it is an important issue, but a non-binding motion on nappy collection and recycling. I am not trying to trivialise it, but —.

Mr Brooks: Will the Member give way?

Mr O'Toole: I will make a couple of points, then I will give way. This institution, which, obviously, has not sat all of the time, was created by an international treaty after a conflict. We were given significant powers, and although we do not always take them seriously, those powers included the powers to levy taxes, which, effectively, means that people do not have a choice in what taxes they pay to us.

Mr O'Toole: I am —.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Sorry, will you take your seat for a wee minute? You really need to come back to the debate. I remind you that, as you will know — leader of the Opposition or not — political parties pick the motions at the Business Committee, which all Members are obliged to. If you do not mind, finish your point and then get back to the motion.

Mr O'Toole: I am happy to finish my point and get back to the motion, but my point is germane to its subject, because we should be implementing things rather than simply debating private Members' motions. I do not dismiss the legitimacy of the issue at all, but let me say this: we can levy taxation, and we can imprison people by creating criminal offences. In the next few weeks, we will authorise tens of billions of pounds of spending. People expect us to take those responsibilities seriously.

Mr Brooks: I thank the Member for giving way. It took him about two minutes to caveat his objection to debating the motion. Does he not see that that speaks to the fact that his objection is groundless? His party likes to speak about a circular economy and environmentalism. This is the reality of it. Discussing nappies is not beyond the realms of this body if nappies and other such products are a substantial problem when it comes to recycling.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Matthew, you have an extra minute.

Mr O'Toole: Thank you very much. People will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to use all of it, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.

The content of what we debate here, like the contents of the objects that we are talking about, is a legitimate subject for debate. Private Members' motions are entirely legitimate, but we have had a lot of them. We are less than 50% of the way through our legislative programme. If we are to debate how to improve our performance against recycling targets specifically in relation to nappies, I would like to hear from the Minister about the specific policies that he will enact. I am sure that he will be able to enlighten us. At a certain point, however, we have to take our jobs seriously and communicate to the public that, although we talk about a circular economy, we are not here simply to have circular debates.

Mr Buckley: I thank the Member for giving way. Will he accept that this debate is every bit as legitimate as the 10-plus non-binding private Members' motions that the Member's party has tabled during his term as leader of the Opposition?

Mr O'Toole: I am glad that I gave way, because I do not accept that. Our job as the official Opposition is to hold the Executive to account. Some Members may laugh, but their party and other parties in the Chamber have power. We are not elected simply to come here and debate like a debating society. We are elected and people take power and ministerial office to do things for people, to pass legislation, to spend money and to give people concrete plans, not simply debate. Let us take our jobs seriously. As legitimate as the issue in the motion is, we should do better in communicating to the members of the public who elect us what we are doing for them.

Ms Brownlee: I will speak not only as a Member but as, I feel, a seasoned, professional nappy-changer. My colleague Michelle McIlveen has passionately raised the issue of nappy and hygiene product recycling and reuse several times in the Chamber. Her efforts have shone a light on an incredible opportunity for us to tackle one of the most persistent waste challenges: disposable nappies and hygiene products.

Since 2009, Wales has run a very successful nappy collection and recycling scheme. Similar initiatives exist in countries such as Japan, Canada and the Netherlands. The question is this: why not here? The cloth nappy schemes introduced by many councils, including my former council, Mid and East Antrim Borough Council, have been very successful and oversubscribed, but disposable nappies remain the go-to choice for many parents. A nappy collection scheme would allow us to collect and recycle those products and turn waste into opportunity. For example, the fibres from recycled nappies could be used to produce longer-lasting, more cost-effective road surfaces. It even presents the Minister for Infrastructure with an innovative way to address the chronic underinvestment in our roads. Academic research in Japan revealed that concrete that has had up to 10% of its fine aggregates replaced by shredded used nappies can achieve a compressive strength that is appropriate for a three-storey house. Scientists prepared concrete and mortar samples by combining washed, dried and shredded disposable nappy waste with cement, sand, gravel and water, and they then cured that as a sample for 28 days. It is really remarkable what can be done. Furthermore, the AERA Minister has a chance to make a major leap by diverting tens of thousands of tons of recyclable waste from landfill at a time when Northern Ireland is striving to meet its 70% recycling target. As we aim for a circular economy, it is exactly the kind of creative solution that we need.

The DUP has consistently advocated for nappy recycling schemes across council areas in Northern Ireland. We are pleased to see that councils, including Ards and North Down Borough Council, Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council and Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council, have passed motions in support of that initiative. The process itself is straightforward: nappies are collected from households or central collection points, transported to recycling facilities, sorted and cleaned so that waste and bacteria are removed, and the material is separated. New products can then be repurposed into construction material, park benches or even plant pots. Given that the direction of travel is a reduction in residual and black-bag waste capacity per household, a nappy collection scheme would offset potential pressures facing families and households with one or more children, those with medical needs or those who use hygiene products.

While the process requires investment, infrastructure and, of course, leadership, the potential benefits are undeniable for families, the councils and our environment. This is the perfect time to seize the opportunity and turn nappies from a burden into a recycling solution.

Mr Carroll: As has been said, three billion nappies are thrown away every year just in the UK, accounting for around 3% of household waste. They are sent to landfill sites for 500 years, although I should declare an interest as somebody who has probably contributed a few thousand of those nappies in the past couple of years by using them at home.

There is no doubt that reusable nappy products are more sustainable and better for the environment, but we should also remember the poverty premium that many struggling families face everywhere, especially in my constituency. Disposable nappies cost, on average, around £25 a month, and that does not include the cost of wipes and other accessories. Using cloth nappies can cut costs in the long run, but reusable cloth products require an upfront investment that many people simply cannot make, making buying them unrealistic for many parents and carers. Some families also lack access to a proper washing machine that works adequately. We can see that with the rise in the number of washing machines popping up in shopping centres. Some people simply do not have the time or the money to wash reusable nappies as often as they need to. Reusable nappies are environmentally better, but there is also a real pressure on families that is often not factored into the debate. Those with more disposable income are likelier to have the time, energy and resources to develop environmentally friendly parenting styles, while others who are more concerned with paying the bills and simply staying afloat are unable to do that.

Non-statutory guidance for councils, as proposed by DAERA in the consultation on 'Rethinking Our Resources', should be the bare minimum. A logical next step would be to improve and expand existing schemes. They include Belfast City Council's cloth nappy scheme, which offers parents the chance to try washable nappies for free for, I think, the first two weeks, and, if they then decide to continue to buy reusable nappies, they get £30 in cash back. That scheme should be extended to all council areas. A range of disposable and reusable nappies should be available for free in key public buildings, including in places such as 2 Royal Avenue, which is the former Tesco building in the city centre. It has an excellent facility, of which I availed myself recently, that provides parents with access to free nappies. The MAC also has such a facility, and I am sure that other buildings across Belfast do. Such a facility should be standard across the board. As far as I am aware, no nappies or related products are available in this Building. I am happy to be corrected on that, but I do not believe that they are. The Commission should rectify that quickly.

If we are serious about rethinking the way in which we use resources and reducing the amount of our plastic waste that goes to landfill, we need to remove the real economic and social barriers to accessing reusable and sustainable products and aim to make reusable nappies and hygiene products free and easily accessible for all families, beginning with public spaces such as this Building. We also need to recognise that, while parents struggle to pay for nappies and there is increasing demand for baby banks and hygiene banks, massively wealthy corporations are doing what they do best, which is profiteering. Pampers made around $9 billion from global sales last year. The top UK supermarkets recorded a 97% increase in profits as the cost of living continued to soar. Pressure needs to be put on such organisations by taxing them and making sure that they cover the cost of the schemes.

Climate action can and should be taken at the individual level, and moving away from using disposable nappy products should be part of that, but we should always place the blame for climate breakdown and excessive resource consumption firmly where it lies: with the corporate profiteers and not with individuals. I am happy to support the amendment and the motion.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: I call the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. Minister, you have up to 15 minutes in which to respond to the debate.

Mr Muir (The Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank the Members who tabled the motion for bringing it to the House and for their interest in the important issue of recycling.

As we navigate the ever-increasing impact of climate change, it is now imperative that we rethink how we deal with our resources.

Our current linear economy, in which we take, make, use and waste, is no longer sustainable, and change is necessary to embed a culture of value towards our resources and accelerate our transition to a circular economy.


5.00 pm

We have made significant progress in managing our waste over the past 20 years, reducing the household waste landfill rate from 72% in 2006-07 to a low of 18% in 2022-23. Meanwhile, the household recycling rate has increased from around 10% in 2002 to a high of 51·9% in 2019-2020. Now, however, we must go further. Members will already be aware of the challenging targets in this area. Indeed, our landmark Climate Change Act set the direction and ambition for environmental protection here, committing us to achieving net zero by 2050 and, specific to our discussion today, achieving 70% of waste recycled by 2030. Other targets in legislation require achieving a 65% recycling rate for municipal waste and a reduction of the amount of waste going to landfill to less than 10%, both by 2035. That means that we need everyone to recycle much more and send less to landfill.

To help deliver on those requirements, my Department has recently consulted on 26 proposals for household and non-household waste management, all designed to help Northern Ireland to achieve its targets to improve our resources and how they are managed and to transition Northern Ireland to a circular economy. The key proposals include greater separation of material at the kerbside, restrictions on the amount of residual waste that can be collected from the kerbside and the introduction of recycling for obligated businesses; that is, businesses and organisations that produce waste that is similar in composition to that coming from households. I firmly believe that doing the right thing should not be difficult. To achieve that, I am making sure that we look at the way that we recycle at work, at home, at school and in any other setting that looks the same. Embedding that consistency at the outset of the scheme design reduces confusion and increases participation.

Turning to the motion on recycling for nappies and other absorbent hygiene products, I am pleased that my fellow Members recognise the importance of the proposals in the recent consultation and share my ambition to do more to protect our valuable resources and our environment. It is great to see the support today for the need to increase separation of various waste streams and to increase the quality and quantity of our recycling, and I really appreciate that. However, the recycling process for disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products is not, unfortunately, as straightforward as it is for other waste streams that we collect at the kerbside, such as paper, card or glass.

Technologies exist to break down the component parts of used nappies and absorbent hygiene products, but the relatively high cost of reprocessing those materials and the limited end markets for the recycled content mean that there is only one facility in the UK that is able to recycle those products. That facility is in Wales, and I hope to visit it in the time ahead to see the work that they are doing in recycling and some other areas.

The motion asks that the Assembly:

"highlights the impact that reducing residual waste capacity per household will have on those who dispose of such products, as well as the amount of recyclable material lost to landfill or incineration".

I agree that that is an ongoing concern, and it is something that we have given due consideration to, as reflected by the inclusion of questions relating to absorbent hygiene products in the recent recycling consultation. I reassure Members that the outcome of that consultation will include the publication of guidance to councils on provisions for families and householders who are using nappies or absorbent hygiene products, as is stated in the amendment to the motion.

The motion further calls on the Assembly to recognise that:

"a nappy collection scheme would support delivery against the 70% recycling target by 2030 set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022".

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of that statement. The introduction of new materials for recycling will be key to achieving our targets and improving our resource management. However, it is my view that there are other, perhaps more cost-effective and environmentally beneficial schemes that could be implemented to help us to achieve those targets. For example, there have been significant successes in some local authority areas, with collection schemes for small waste electrical and electronic equipment. The component parts of those items can be easily recycled and retain a high value with a plethora of existing end markets. I do not close my mind, however, to the issues that have been raised today.

The motion further calls on me to:

"promote reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposable nappies".

I refer Members to the most recent evidence on disposable and reusable nappies, which was published by DEFRA in 2023 and can be found in its report entitled, 'Life Cycle Assessment of Disposable and Reusable Nappies in the UK'. That assessment showed that, while disposable nappies had a slightly higher global warming potential, reusable nappies had a higher environmental impact when compared across the life of the product, largely due to the composition of the material, which is normally cotton and is extremely water-intensive to produce, and laundering the items after each use. Following that assessment and with no clear consensus on whether reusable or disposable nappies were better for the environment, DEFRA decided not to progress further policy action on nappies at this time.

I am aware that several councils have run nappy reuse schemes across Northern Ireland, offering up to £30 reimbursement to residents who spend £50 or more on reusable cloth nappies. Some councils work with the Library Group to offer a two-week trial pack to residents that includes cloth nappies and reusable wipes. My Department's waste prevention programme includes actions on reuse and repair, and I am aware of the potential cost benefits to families of using reusables as opposed to disposables. There are no specific actions in that programme on nappies and absorbent hygiene products, but that is due to be reviewed in the coming months, and the inclusion of reusable nappies will be considered as part of that.

The final part of the motion calls on me:

"to develop a strategy in conjunction with local councils for the collection and recycling of disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products in Northern Ireland."

I am keen to explore any option that will help to enhance our environment and improve the lives of our citizens. The first steps in that process will be to determine the feasibility of a scheme for the collection of nappies and other absorbent hygiene products in Northern Ireland. As part of that process, I will encourage councils to work with my officials, engaging through existing channels, to share views and experiences and to bring forward proposals that, they believe, would help to deliver our shared ambitions. I will also welcome input from those in private industry who may view this as an opportunity to develop their business and, in turn, enhance our circular economy.

As well as the need to understand the environmental benefits or, indeed, disbenefits in a time of constrained budgets, it is vital to ensure that any scheme would not place an undue burden on taxpayers. In the interim, I will put the focus on other waste streams and on growing the collection of those. I reiterate my commitment to exploring the issue, but I cannot be the only person left holding the baby, and we have to work with district councils. There are many opportunities for councils to collect different waste streams, many of which command a high value for recycling and have established end markets.

The matter of our waste and resources and dealing with waste sustainably is an extremely important issue with which Members are rightly concerned, and I welcome the motion and the amendment. I reassure Members that future policy decisions on waste and improving our recycling will be based on the best available evidence to ensure that we are well placed to meet our legislative targets. My vision for Northern Ireland is a strong, green economy that values its resources and actively closes the loop by putting as many resources as possible back into the system. I wholly agree with the sentiment of the motion to increase recycling and reduce what we send to landfill. I thank the Members who tabled the motion, and I thank Members for the interesting, challenging and respectful debate that it stimulated.

I will say one final thing about the remarks of Matthew O'Toole. He referenced the fact that these institutions were set up as a result of an international agreement in 1998. The institutions have been down for an awfully long time, and this place is not like a computer: you cannot switch it off and switch it on again and expect it to work exactly as before. We need stable institutions so that we can have a very defined legislative programme as we move from one mandate to another. The institutions were restored just about a year ago, and I am putting my heart and soul into working them and delivering for people. However, the impact of collapse is significant, and that is why we need to reform these institutions, so that we can deliver for everyone in Northern Ireland.

Mr O'Toole: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Muir: Yes, I am happy to.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: I respectfully ask everybody to stick to the item that we are debating rather than their add-ons, please.

Mr O'Toole: Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, I am not changing the subject. In relation to waste disposal and his ability to deliver it through the Executive, have the Minister or his colleagues brought forward a specific proposal on reform to the Executive and sought to get it into the Programme for Government?

Mr Muir: I am aware of Madam Principal Deputy Speaker's guidance on the wider issue. We are discussing the motion, and I am outlining to the Member the reason why delivering legislation in this place can sometimes be slower than anticipated. That is not from a desire on my part not to progress things. I am committed to delivering for the people of Northern Ireland on this and other issues. People in Northern Ireland look to us in this place to work together and deliver for them, and I am committed to doing that, alongside others. I hope that we can agree on the motion and can continue to work not just in this place but with local government to deliver on issues that matter to the people of Northern Ireland.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Minister. That was much appreciated.

I call Sian Mulholland to wind on the amendment. Sian, I advise you that you have five minutes.

Ms Mulholland: Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I feel as though we were having a nappy-off between Miss Brownlee, Mr O'Toole and Mr Carroll about who has changed more nappies. I can confirm to Mr Butler, however, that there are no safety pins and there is no more yellowing terry towelling; they are all quite funky and velcroed these days. We might have to update your knowledge of the reusable nappy.

I acknowledge Miss McIlveen for highlighting the important issue of disposable nappies — I am really interested in this — and absorbent hygiene products. As we heard, they make up 4% of our residual waste. Addressing that issue is crucial in our efforts to reduce our waste, combat climate change and meet our statutory recycling targets.

The motion claims that DAERA failed to address disposable nappies and absorbent hygiene products in the recent consultation, 'Rethinking Our Resources'. That is not quite accurate: proposal 12 in the consultation explicitly references absorbent hygiene products, including nappies, and proposes guidance for councils. The Alliance Party's amendment not only corrects that but reinforces the need for effective, forward-thinking solutions to reduce waste and increase recycling, which, I think, we all want to see. As my colleague John Blair pointed out, there is no direct reference to statutory guidance, although I hear what Miss McIlveen is saying in the motion. Otherwise, we are mostly aligned in our desire to see those targets met and our waste reduced.

One of the most promising approaches to tackling the issue outlined in the motion is the promotion of reusable nappy schemes. They offer undeniable benefits. As a councillor, I sought to extend and promote them further, and I was successful in Belfast City Council in being able to offer that opportunity to more families. There is a saving for councils as well, because reusable nappies can significantly reduce the volume of disposable nappies entering the waste stream, which, in turn, lowers our waste processing and landfill costs. They also reduce waste pressures on families with young children, who often face challenges with bin overflow. I am not saying that I am often found jumping on the bin on a Thursday night, but there are definitely challenges.

Mr Carroll: Will the Member give way?

Ms Mulholland: Yes, of course. Go ahead. Is it about me jumping on a bin? [Laughter.]

Mr Carroll: It is collective, not specific. As a former Belfast City councillor, does the Member agree that there is also an issue with people not getting their bins collected regularly enough? There is also a lack of small waste bins in and around Belfast in particular and an issue with people having a lot of disposable nappies in bins that may not be collected for three or four weeks. Has she heard that concern as a councillor or as an MLA?

Ms Mulholland: As a councillor, I received more complaints about the inconsistency of the approach. I was lucky enough to be a councillor on two councils, and I saw different approaches to recycling and waste. Consistency is an issue. It is about a behavioural change. It is also about education with constituents; that was a key point. I will move on.

Gerry, you mentioned the poverty premium and said that, at times, reusable nappies can be not as cost-effective for some families. People can save up to £1,000 with reusable nappies over the time that a baby uses them, but I hear what you say: what if you do not have access to a washing machine or adequate facilities? Another thing that I am interested in is innovative solutions, whether that is in roads, plant pots or garden furniture, which Cheryl Brownlee mentioned. One of the other benefits of reusable nappies, which I can confirm, is that they are better medically and can help prevent nappy rash if they are used and maintained properly. There are lots of advantages.


5.15 pm

On environmental advantages, my colleague John Blair mentioned the fact that they produce over 25% less CO2 over their life cycle than single-use nappies and that 98% fewer resources are used in their manufacture compared with disposables. A fact that I was really shocked by is that, if every child in the UK were to switch from disposable nappies to reusable nappies, it would save the equivalent of 700 million car miles in CO2 emissions. That is nearly 3,000 car journeys to the moon. I thought that was an interesting statistic; I am not sure that it is very helpful to this debate, but there you go. Those figures demonstrate how transformative reusable nappies can be when it comes to reducing our carbon footprint. As Gerry pointed out, however, we have to acknowledge that reusable nappies may not be suitable for every family.

I urge Members to support the amendment. My hope is that, by working together and learning from best practice, we can move forward.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Sian. I ask Tom Buchanan to make a winding-up speech. Tom, you have 10 minutes.

Mr T Buchanan: Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank all those who participated in today's debate.

My colleague Michelle McIlveen, who moved the motion, pointed out that it has a two-pronged approach. The first prong is engagement between the Minister and councils on the development of a strategy for the collection and recycling of disposable nappies and other such products. Of course, if the Minister is serious about recycling and reducing landfill, that engagement must be led and driven by him. It cannot simply be left up to councils to act on some new non-statutory guidance with which the Department provides them in order to come up with such a strategy. Such an initiative must be spearheaded by the Minister and centrally driven. That is why the Alliance Party's amendment is disappointing: it removes the responsibility to bring forward such a strategy from the Minister and his Department and places it solely on local councils. The councils are there to engage with and deliver a strategy brought forward by the Minister, centrally, so that they are all dealing with the same thing, but not to actually develop the strategy. We heard comments from around the Chamber about there being willingness and support for the introduction of such a strategy amongst a number of councils. The second prong of the motion is the Minister and his Department taking an active role in promoting reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposables in an effort to reduce the amount of that waste that goes to landfill, which is currently almost 40,000 tons a year.

While the Minister has set a recycling target of 70% by 2030, there is no sign of any movement by him or the Department on either of those two issues other than to issue guidance to councils, some of which already promote a number of reusable nappy incentive schemes. We have already heard about that in the debate. It is worth noting that the Minister has previously expressed a willingness to meet councils to discuss the potential introduction of such a scheme, but Alliance's amendment to the motion is not in keeping with that, raising the question: is the Minister rowing back from the position that Alliance took some time ago?

Single-use or disposable nappies are one of the largest contributors to plastic waste, not only across the UK but globally. The market is expected to keep growing, fuelled by high birth rates in developing countries and ageing populations, which are likely to drive an increasing consumption of other absorbent hygiene products. It is clear that the amount of recyclable material in a single disposable nappy that is lost to landfill or incineration represents a significant drag on progress towards meeting Northern Ireland's recycling target of 70% by 2030 and our goal to promote a truly circular economy.

There was only a fleeting reference to nappies and other absorbent hygiene products in the recent DAERA consultation. There was a commitment to provide councils with non-statutory guidance and explore recycling opportunities. That does not go far enough to address the issue, Minister. Northern Ireland has an opportunity to become innovative and groundbreaking in this area, but that requires you, as Minister, to take ownership of a bespoke strategy, developed centrally in conjunction with our councils. Are you willing to step forward, take that decision and move forward with a strategy from the centre, from here, rather than its coming from the councils? If we are serious about meeting our targets, I urge you to consider the Welsh model — you have said that you will — and, in conjunction with our councils, introduce a strategy to deal with the issue.

Mr Muir: Thank you for giving way. I want to provide you the reassurance that there is no rolling back on my previous commitments. I am happy to engage with the councils. I am conscious that we also have to strike a balance. You are asking me to issue statutory guidance to councils, and the consultation is about non-statutory guidance. Sometimes we are accused of giving too many instructions to councils, and, on the other side, it is that we should work in partnership with people. I want to work with people on this. I am happy to engage with them on it. I hope that that gives you some reassurance. My perspective in life is to work with people. That is what I want to do with the councils on this issue. This has been a really good debate. Michelle has raised these issues consistently. I am happy to work with the councils on these issues, but we also need to get their voices and their perspectives on the matter. The fact that I am going to Wales to see its efforts on recycling also shows my broader commitment to recycling.

Mr T Buchanan: Thank you, Minister. We take encouragement from the fact that you are going to Wales to look at what it has developed and at the success that it has achieved, but you cannot shirk your responsibility. You need to lead on this. Providing guidance rather than a strategy will lead to the 11 councils taking different approaches, which will include doing nothing, and it will not address the issue. Therefore, you cannot shirk your responsibility on the issue. You must bring forward a strategy.

It is disappointing that the Alliance Party decided to table an amendment simply because it could. We want a firm, co-designed strategy that will address what is an identified issue. The issue has been identified and must be addressed. Guidance will not address it. The amendment neutralises our proposals and does not go far enough, as we have pointed out time and again in the debate. Although the leader of the Opposition pooh-poohed the debate, I hope that he will support the motion. [Laughter.]

To come back to some of the other Members who have spoken today, my colleague, in opening the debate, raised concerns about reducing the size of the grey bin or having fewer collections and the problems that that will create for parents of small children. One child can use up to 6,000 nappies in a lifetime, and reducing the size of the grey bin or the number of times that it is collected, without putting something else in place, is not going to address the issue: it is going to create problems, and it is going to create problems for the Department. She spoke of the Welsh scheme and how it has reached its 66·6% recycling rate, with one of the councils reaching 73·2%. I am glad that the Minister is going to look at that. Hopefully, it will give him some incentive to introduce a similar scheme in Northern Ireland. She then spoke about writing to the 11 councils on issue and said that a number of them have expressed an interest in a scheme being introduced to deal with the issue.

John Blair referred to this as an important issue and said that it can take hundreds of years for one of those nappies to disintegrate in a landfill. That is absolutely right. He spoke about the Department introducing a waste management strategy, but I wonder what consultation has taken place with councils on that particular issue.

Nicola Brogan spoke of aiming for net zero and the change that must come about. We must change things if we want to reach that, and it is critical to look at best practice around the world. I hope that the Minister and the Department are doing that: looking at best practice around the world.

Robbie Butler said that both approaches — the motion and the amendment — point towards urgent action being required and the need to tackle this and do something different. That is the message going around the Chamber today. It requires leadership and innovation. That is key to all of this. It requires leadership from the Minister and it requires innovation. The Minister must lead on the issue. I come back to the question of whether he is prepared to do so. He is very passionate about recycling and setting targets, but, on this issue, is he prepared to take the lead?

Matthew O'Toole spoke about the importance of the subject and the importance of recycling such products, but, as is always the case with the leader of the Opposition, there was a "but". He then wandered away from the subject completely. I will leave it at that.

My colleague spoke about the successful recycling scheme that has been operating in Wales since 2009. She asked a very important question: why can we not have that here? That is a question for the Minister: why can we not have that same scheme here? It is delivering so effectively in Wales. She also spoke of using —

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: Tom, your time is up.

Mr T Buchanan: — of recycled nappies in tarmac, concrete and so forth. Sorry?

Mr T Buchanan: What a pity.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: I know. We were all enjoying it

[Laughter]

especially the unexpected puns.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Assembly divided:

Question accordingly agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly expresses concern that disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products make up around 4% of residual waste; welcomes the proposed new guidance for councils on expanding opportunities to recycle more materials, including nappies and other absorbent hygiene products, in the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs 'Rethinking Our Resources: Measures for Climate Action and a Circular Economy in NI' consultation; highlights the impact that reducing residual waste capacity per household will have on those who dispose of such products, as well as the amount of recyclable material lost to landfill or incineration; recognises that a nappy collection scheme would support delivery against the 70% recycling target by 2030 set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022; calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to promote reusable nappy products as an alternative to disposable nappies; and further calls on the Minister, drawing on best practice in other jurisdictions and in conjunction with local councils, to develop the new guidance for councils on expanding recycling opportunities that is proposed in the rethinking our resources consultation.

Mr O'Toole: On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. Having spent a chunk of time voting on that vital motion about nappy recycling and collection, I wonder whether a Minister will come forward to update us on what practical actions will follow. The public who are watching will want to know what practical policies will follow from that vote.

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: I am going to give the Member a copy of Standing Orders. That is not a point of order.

Adjourned at 5.40 pm.

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