Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I welcome to the meeting Rosalie Flanagan, former permanent secretary in DCAL, ask whether she wishes to make any declarations of any financial or other interests with respect to the inquiry —

Ms Rosalie Flanagan: No.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): No. Inform the Committee that we wrote to Ms Flanagan inviting her to return to give evidence. Included in this invitation was information on the potential legal implications of giving evidence under affirmation that she knows to be false and that she may wish to take her own legal advice on this issue. Could I highlight to members that Ms Flanagan was invited to return to provide clarification on whether or not she was aware that exiting — emergency exiting was raised as an issue of concern with respect to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium.

In Ms Flanagan's evidence to the Committee on 17 September 2015, she indicated that she was not aware that emergency exiting was an issue of concern. In his evidence to the Committee on 28 January 2016, Mr Dominic Walsh, the former chairperson of Sport NI, indicated that, at a meeting in mid 2012, there was a conversation about emergency exiting with respect to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium, and he was assured that those issues would be dealt with. The Committee also wishes to seek clarification from Ms Flanagan regarding whether or not she was aware of plans around the possibility of purchasing houses adjacent to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium. In his evidence to the Committee on 28 January 2016, Mr Walsh indicated that the purchase of houses was mentioned at a meeting in 2012.

Could I highlight that Ms Flanagan was notified in advance of the Committee's reasons for taking evidence under oath or affirmation; of the potential implications of knowingly making a false statement whilst under affirmation; and that they may wish to — she may wish to seek her own legal advice? Ms Flanagan was notified in advance of the evidence session of the matters on which evidence is to be sought, and she was provided in advance of the evidence session with relevant evidence received from other parties. Ms Flanagan will be provided with a reasonable opportunity to put forward the facts as she understands them or to correct or contradict other statements on relevant matters which have been made in evidence to the Committee. The questioning of the evidence should remain — of the witness should remain focused on the matters notified to her in advance of the meeting. So, could I invite the Clerk to provide the wording of the affirmation to Ms Flanagan and then invite the witness to read the affirmation into the record?

Ms R Flanagan: I, Rosalie Flanagan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be truthful and honest and that I will give the Committee all information and assistance as I can to enable it to discharge its responsibilities.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you indeed. If you would like to proceed with your presentation, please.

Ms R Flanagan: Thank you, Chair. Good morning.

I am invited to give evidence to the Committee relating to contradictory evidence provided by Dominic Walsh and myself. The letter dated 12 February 2016, which I received from the Chair and which he has just referred to, says that the Committee wishes to seek clarification from me regarding whether or not I was aware of emergency exiting plans with respect to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park Stadium. It goes on to say:

It may be helpful if I recall precisely what I was asked and my responses when I gave evidence to the Committee in September last. Mr Humphrey asked me whether I had ever discussed the demolition of houses around the proposals for exiting at Casement Park. I responded:

He then asked whether there had ever been any discussion with the Minister of safety issues and the issue of properties being purchased in the streets surrounding Casement Park to facilitate greater emergency exiting and egress. I responded:

Mr Humphrey asked me if I had ever discussed it with the Minister's special adviser. Again, I replied:

If those questions were put to me again today, my responses would be the same. My evidence today will be that Mr Walsh is inaccurate in his recollection as to any meeting with him in which I was involved, but, before I respond in detail to Mr Walsh's evidence, I wish to raise two points of concern to me.

In discussion among the members of this Committee following Mr Dominic Walsh's evidence session, Mr Humphrey said that I had clearly misled this Committee in terms of the evidence I gave in answering the question to him about the demolition of houses. From this, it would appear that Mr Humphrey concluded that I misled this Committee on the basis of Mr Walsh's assertions about a meeting he attended with the Minister and me and the content of discussion at that meeting. I am concerned that a member of this Committee reached this conclusion without hearing my response to Mr Walsh's evidence. This seems to me to be contrary to fairness and natural justice.

Second, I refer to an interview given by the Chair of this Committee on the BBC radio programme 'Good Morning Ulster' on 29 January 2016, the day after Mr Dominic Walsh had given his evidence. The Chair said:

Mr McCausland went on to refer to my previous evidence that I had not discussed the demolition of houses and said that it was surprising that the Committee had not been told about the meeting or provided with the notes of the meeting. He also described Mr Walsh as a very convincing witness. The inference from these statements is that the Chair fully believed Mr Walsh and his evidence, as opposed to the evidence which I had previously given, without giving me the opportunity to respond to Mr Walsh's assertions. This also seems to me to be contrary to fairness and natural justice.

Turning now to the substantive issues on which I have been asked to give evidence to the Committee, I will first address Mr Walsh's assertions about regular meetings during 2012. In his evidence to the Committee in January 2016, Mr Walsh told the Committee that, in the summer of 2012, at a time when the chief executive of Sport NI was off ill, he had frequent, regular Friday update meetings with the Minister, her special adviser and myself. In terms of the timeline, I can tell the Committee that the chief executive of Sport NI, Mr Eamonn McCartan, was absent on sick leave from mid-May 2012 until he retired, so the period referred to by Mr Walsh must be between mid-May and 10 September 2012, when Mr Walsh's term of office as chair of Sport NI ended. My recollection and the evidence of the Minister's and my diaries during that period show that no such regular Friday update meetings took place; indeed, the Minister very rarely held any meetings in the Department on Fridays, as she worked in her constituency.

I note that, in addition to his assertion in evidence to this Committee about frequent, regular Friday meetings with Minister Ní Chuilín, Mr Walsh also told the Committee that he had fortnightly meetings with Mr Nelson McCausland when he was Minister. Mr Walsh was chair of Sport NI during all of Mr McCausland's term as Minister of DCAL — some 22 months. I do not recall fortnightly meetings between Mr Walsh and Minister McCausland during my 15 months as permanent secretary in DCAL, but perhaps these predated my appointment, or perhaps they were held without officials being present.

As I have said, there were no regular Friday meetings as asserted by Mr Walsh, but, in order to give the Committee a complete picture, I can tell you that there were only three occasions in 2012 when the Minister and I had meetings with Mr Walsh. None of these were on Fridays — in fact, they were all on Wednesdays — and none occurred after the chief executive of Sport NI had gone off ill in mid-May. The first of these was when the Minister and I met Mr Walsh and Mr McCartan, the chair and chief executive of Sport NI, on 15 February 2012. Mr Mick Cory, the head of sports in DCAL at the time, was also present. The meeting was held to discuss Sport NI business planning. I have no specific recollection of that meeting but, in any case, it is well outside the time frame and had a wider attendance than the meeting referred to by Mr Walsh.

The second occasion was when the Minister was meeting the board of Sport NI on Wednesday 28 March 2012. She held a short pre-meeting with Mr Walsh, which I attended. Mr Jarlath Kearney was not in post at that time. He was not appointed as the Minister's special adviser until 2 April 2012. The purpose of that pre-meeting was to give Mr Walsh, as chair of Sport NI, the courtesy of advance notice that the Minister was going to tell the board that she was considering bringing the stadium programme into the Department.

The third occasion was when the Minister held a further meeting with the board of Sport NI on Wednesday 2 May 2012, which, again, was preceded by a short pre-meeting with Mr Walsh at which Mr Kearney and I were present. The purpose of that pre-meeting was to give Mr Walsh the courtesy of advance notice that the Minister was going to tell the board that she had serious concerns about governance in Sport NI. At neither of those meetings on 28 March and 2 May 2012 was there any mention or discussion of emergency exiting or the purchase or demolition of houses in relation to the redevelopment of Casement Park; in fact, at the time of the meeting on 28 March 2012, Sport NI was in the lead in the delivery of the stadium programme. Responsibility for delivery of the stadium programme transferred from Sport NI to DCAL on 30 April — two days prior to the meeting on 2 May. So, on both of those dates, the chair of Sport NI would have been in a position of having full knowledge about the programme from Sport NI, and there would have been no reason or logic in his raising a significant detailed question such as this about the programme with either the Minister or myself. We would have expected him to tell, rather than ask, us about such an issue.

Mr Walsh told the Committee that I took minutes or contemporaneous notes of the regular Friday meetings and at the specific meeting at which he said emergency exiting and the purchase of houses were discussed. Although there were no regular Friday meetings, nor any specific meeting at which these matters were discussed, again, for completeness, I can tell the Committee that I did not take minutes or contemporaneous notes of either of those pre-meetings which were attended by Mr Walsh, the Minister and me. It would have been unnecessary to do so, given the courtesy nature of the meeting.

When I was working, I had notebooks which I used to record significant points and actions I needed to take, whether at meetings, during phone calls or otherwise. These notebooks were not a part of the official departmental record. They were my aide-memoire. If any points or actions needed to be recorded officially, I would have dictated or written them to be typed or typed them myself, and they would have then been saved on the electronic filing system. When I retired, I put all my notebooks in a box and took them home, where they sat under my stairs awaiting shredding. My inertia in getting round to doing this means that I still have those notebooks and have been able to look at what I wrote on 28 March and 2 May 2012. On 28 March, I have recorded a discussion where the Minister told Mr Walsh of her serious concerns about delivery of the stadium programme by Sport NI, her thoughts about transferring responsibility for delivery into the Department and Mr Walsh's reactions and responses. There is no mention of emergency exiting at Casement Park or of the purchase of houses. On 2 May, I have recorded some responses from Mr Walsh on some of the governance issues which the Minister was about to raise with the Sport NI board. My memory is that I had sent a list of these to Mr Walsh in advance, so he was already aware of them before he came to the meeting. There is no mention of emergency exiting at Casement Park or of the purchase of houses.

Mr Walsh told the Committee that at one of these Friday update meetings in 2012, while he was the chair of Sport NI, he raised the issue of emergency exiting at the redeveloped Casement Park and that I told him — assured him — that it was being dealt with through the purchase of housing, specifically the purchase of four houses that were on the opposite side to the Andersonstown Road. He thought it was Owenvarragh Park. I would like to comment on some of Mr Walsh's assertions about the emergency exiting issue. In his evidence to the Committee about when he had first become aware of the potential problem with emergency exiting, Mr Walsh said that emergency exiting issues around Casement Park were highlighted from the very outset in the outline business case (OBC) and in the summary from Sport NI. Compliance with relevant health and safety legislation was a programme objective for the stadium programme from the start, and the proposals in the OBC were designed to ensure compliance with the red guide and aimed to improve standards to comply with the Safety of Sports Grounds (NI) Order 2006 certification scheme. The OBC stated that the proposals for the GAA were compliant with all relevant legislation.

In his evidence to this Committee in October last, Mr Edgar Jardine advised the Committee that 12 potential risks were identified in the OBC. Emergency exiting was not one of those 12 risks. When the chief executive of Sport NI, Mr Eamonn McCartan, wrote to the Department in July 2010 with a copy of the final OBC, he stated that all requisite approvals had been given by Sport NI staff. This letter did not refer to emergency exiting. In addition, the minutes of the Sport NI board meetings in 2011 and 2012 and papers provided by Sport NI to the stadium sponsor board meetings while I was in the Department made no reference to emergency exiting. The current Chair of this Committee was Minister for DCAL at the time of the finalisation and approval of the OBC, and the point has been made on a number of occasions that the issue of emergency exiting had not arisen during his time as Minister. So Mr Walsh would appear to have been inaccurate in his assertion that emergency exiting was first raised in the outline business case.

There is one other point which, I think, it is important for me to put on record, lest my failure to do so might suggest that I concur with Mr Walsh's assertion. In his evidence about emergency exiting at Casement Park, Mr Walsh said that Casement was always going to be a challenging site because of the physical footprint. He said that I had raised with him the possibility of a joint statement for soccer and Gaelic at Boucher Road instead of at Windsor Park and Casement Park. He thought that was a good idea — a sensible way forward — but, in his words, the conversation just fizzled out. This is factually inaccurate. There were discussions at OBC stage about the potential for a possible joint soccer and rugby stadium at Boucher Road. This option failed in the OBC because it did not meet the criterion of acceptability to those two sports. I did not discuss a joint soccer and Gaelic stadium with Mr Walsh, because such an option was not considered.

Turning now to Mr Walsh's assertion that, at a particular regular Friday meeting in the summer of 2012, he had raised the emergency exiting issue and I had told him — indeed, assured him — that it was being dealt with through the purchase of housing. Setting aside the fact that there were no Friday meetings and no meeting within the time frame and with the attendance asserted by Mr Walsh, it is completely unreasonable to suggest that, in the summer of 2012, I knew that there was a problem about emergency exiting at Casement Park or that I was in a position to give assurance that the issue of emergency exiting was to be addressed through the purchase of four houses on the opposite side to the Andersonstown Road. In the summer of 2012, the Casement Park project was at the stage of tendering for a design team. The design team was not appointed until early September 2012, so at that time the design of the redeveloped Casement Park had not even begun, and the specifics of how exiting or emergency exiting would be designed had certainly not begun. For such a significant proposal to purchase houses to have been discussed or such a significant decision to have been taken, there would have to have been a full analysis of the financial, legal, technical and other relevant aspects of the proposal. Serious — serious consideration would have — would have been given to the potential public controversy which might have arisen from such a decision. All of this would have involved substantial formal paperwork. There would be a clear paper trail in the Department and other relevant bodies. No such documentation was provided to me; no such discussions took place with me; and no such decisions were made by me or notified to me in 2012 or at any time when I was in the Department. Therefore, in the summer of 2012, I was not and could not have been in a position to provide the definitive assurance which Mr Walsh claims to have been given by me.

In conclusion, Chair, I refer to the discussion in this Committee following Mr Walsh's evidence session. You said:

I can only agree that it would be remarkable if such a discussion had taken place involving me and I did not remember it.

In conclusion, finally, referring back to the terms of the letter inviting me to this meeting, my evidence to this Committee is that Mr Walsh is inaccurate in his recollection and assertions as to a meeting with him in which I was involved. During my time as permanent secretary of DCAL, I was not aware of emergency exiting plans for the redeveloped Casement Park stadium. I was not aware of plans around the possibility of purchasing and demolishing houses adjacent to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium. There was no meeting in mid 2012 where Mr Walsh told me of concerns around emergency exiting with respect to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium where he was assured that these were being dealt with and where plans around the possibility of purchasing and demolishing houses adjacent to the proposed redeveloped Casement Park stadium was discussed.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you very much for the evidence there. First question is from Rosie McCorley.

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Thank you very much, Rosalie, for coming back to the Committee again today.

Can I just go back on a few points that you said? You referred to the pre-meeting and the courtesy nature of the meeting and no minutes were taken. Was that standard practice? Were there types of meetings where minutes wouldn't be taken?

Ms R Flanagan: Yes. There were a lot of meetings and discussions where formal minutes would not have been taken. Formal minutes would be taken at formal minutes — formal meetings, sorry. The courtesy pre-meeting was simply a short discussion with the chair of Sport NI before the Minister went in to talk to the whole board, just to give him advance notice of what she was going to say — give him an opportunity to consider it, rather than just hearing it for the first time in the meeting, so —

Ms McCorley: And then, just for clarity, it was at one of these type meetings that Mr Walsh claimed that this statement was made about the purchase of houses.

Ms R Flanagan: No. Mr Walsh claims that the statement was made at one of a series of regular Friday update meetings. Those two pre-meetings I mention only because, for completeness, they are the only meetings that I had with — you know, that were with the Minister and Mr Walsh, and neither of those meetings falls into the time frame when the chief executive was off sick, and neither of them was on a Friday. So there's complete contradiction between what Mr Walsh said and what I've said and what's actually happened.

Ms McCorley: OK, OK, because it is an emerging "He said, she said", and what we're having is completely conflicting evidence, but what you're saying is those Friday morning meetings which Mr Walsh referred to — he referred to the Friday morning regular meetings and —

Ms R Flanagan: Friday. Not Friday morning, but Friday.

Ms McCorley: — Friday regular meetings, and those meetings pretty much didn't actually — not in your recollection — didn't happen.

Ms R Flanagan: There's no — I don't recall them. The Minister didn't have meetings, normally, on Fridays. The Minister's diary and my diary don't show any such meetings.

Ms McCorley: OK. And you were — you referred to hearing the Chair of the Committee saying — you heard — you heard it said that someone on this Committee said that you had misled the Committee and the Chair completely believed Mr Walsh. Now, to me, that seems to be, certainly at the very least premature, because we're listening to evidence. We have been listening to evidence, and that just suggests that some evidence is going to be believed and some isn't, and minds are made up. Did that — would it have felt like that to you when you heard those comments?

Ms R Flanagan: As I've said — I said it in my statement — I was concerned that a member of the Committee reached this conclusion that I had clearly misled the Committee without hearing my response to Mr Walsh's evidence. And, similarly, that the comments that the Chair made on Radio Ulster were made without giving me the opportunity to respond to Mr Walsh's assertions.

Ms McCorley: Yeah, OK. So, just for the record, then, you've said that you have a completely different [Inaudible.]

from Mr Walsh. That's what you're saying. OK?

Ms R Flanagan: Yes.

Ms McCorley: Can I just refer to a point, because I haven't heard this point actually before, about four houses opposite the stadium on the Andersonstown Road being purchased? Could you just maybe clarify that point again, because I hadn't heard that?

Ms R Flanagan: At almost the final minute of the Dominic Walsh evidence session, Mr McCrea asked him — well, maybe I just need to go back a little bit. Mr McCrea said:

Mr Walsh said:

And Mr McCrea then said:

Mr Walsh said:

That is a quote from Hansard.

Ms McCorley: OK. OK. No, thank you for that. No, that's — it's actually just a bit unclear as to what exactly that means, but — the opposite side to the Andersonstown Road. The Andersonstown Road has two sides, so opposite to what? I listened to that. It sounded to me then opposite to Casement, but opposite to Casement then is the other side of the Andersonstown Road from Owenvarragh. So, I mean, that's left things quite unclear as to that point, but that's [Inaudible.]

. Thank you very much.

Ms R Flanagan: The point to me in that was that he was very specific that I had given him some very specific information —

Ms McCorley: Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: — and had assured — given him assurances and had convinced him that this was happening. And that just didn't happen.

Ms McCorley: Didn't happen. OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Thank you, and, before we go to Mr Humphrey, just for the record, I think I'm correct in saying — I can check Hansard in due course — Ms Flanagan did not say — use the words — that I "completely believed". She did say that I had used the words "compelling and convincing", not the words "completely believed" as was used by Ms McCorley.

Mr Humphrey: Thanks, Chair. Thank you very much for your attendance today, and, obviously, I want to start by addressing the remarks you made about me at the outset of your statement in terms of fairness and natural justice. I have to say that I didn't draw any firm conclusions about your evidence or Mr Walsh's without hearing your response; in fact, that's why I was very supportive and voted for you to be brought back to the Committee so we could hear your response and, indeed, supportive of him being brought back, which we hope to do within the next few days as well. I simply noted, as others have, and identified the contradictions in the evidence, so I wasn't siding with your version of events or, indeed, Mr Walsh's, because I and this Committee are wanting to get clarity and certainty around the issues. This inquiry is about health and safety, and it's specifically about emergency exiting at a proposed stadium at Casement Park. So that's why, Ms Flanagan, I supported the Minister, Mr Walsh and yourself being brought back, and I think, to be fair, that is in line with the aspects of fairness and natural justice and so, you know, the contradictions that there are between your evidence and his will equally be revisited when Mr Walsh is in front of this Committee, whenever that's confirmed.

Can I just say, in terms of the formal minutes — sorry, do you want to respond?

Ms R Flanagan: Could I respond —

Mr Humphrey: Yes, of course. Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: — to that? The discussion of this Committee following Mr Walsh's evidence is not, I don't think, in Hansard, but I was able to listen to it on the Listen Again facility on the Committee website, and, obviously, I took very seriously what was being said, and I went through it and just wrote down everything that was said. It's quite long, but the particular comment that I am referring to here is where you said — you were talking about the Minister, and you said:

I am just quoting from what was said. That was why I was so —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): That's all right.

Ms R Flanagan: — concerned and why I wanted to put that on the record today.

Mr Humphrey: That's fine, and I have no difficulty with that. That's why, whenever we have conflict, that actually supports my view of people being brought back here to be requestioned around issues that clearly are conflicting. We have a permanent secretary and a Minister saying one thing, and someone who was the chairman — a public servant who was the chairman of Sport NI — saying another. This inquiry is into emergency exiting — health and safety — at a stadium at which potentially £60 million of public money will be spent, and I think it is important that we get answers to those questions. That is what we are about in terms of the Minister coming back last week and yourself coming back today, and Mr Walsh coming back the next few days. I would commend you, because, unlike the Minister, you have actually afforded us the respect of actually putting forward questions.

If I might move to questions. You know, Dominic Walsh, when he was here, told this Committee — again, this will all be revisited with Mr Walsh — that he was unable to get access to papers. Unlike you, he didn't retain his own papers and notes. He has, I think, told this Committee that he gave them to the Department. I think we are led to believe that they have been destroyed. Now, from the evidence that we have here from Mr Scott and from other people, it is very difficult for us, as members of this Committee, to actually understand or believe that, whenever these issues are being discussed at sponsor board, at the safety technical group, at Sport NI board meetings that these are not being fed through to the Minister at her level and at the Senior Civil Service level within the Department. Can you understand that? You know, we have evidence here — we have minutes and correspondence in terms of letters and in writing in terms of e-mail — and there is so much conflicting around this. Why is it, whenever meetings are held with the Minister, that minutes are not always taken? These are issues of huge — this is a —

Ms R Flanagan: Sorry, I am not very clear what question you are asking me.

Mr Humphrey: What I am saying is there is evidence within the bundle that we have here and this pack that suggests that these issues were discussed. Emergency exiting, demolition —

Ms R Flanagan: Sorry. I'm only here to answer questions really about what Mr Walsh said —

Mr Humphrey: Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: — and about my time in the Department and about the specific meeting that he asserts was held and the specific —

Mr Humphrey: Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: — discussions that he asserts were made. I —

Mr Humphrey: What I am asking you is —

Ms R Flanagan: And I have given you as full and as candid an explanation and statement about what I know and what happened. And I don't think I can comment or it would be appropriate for me to comment on the wider issue of what was said by other people in other contexts and in other bundles and so on.

Mr Humphrey: OK, but —

Ms R Flanagan: I am not in a position to deal with a question like that.

Mr Humphrey: OK, then. Let me ask you, in terms of the meetings that you attended with Mr Walsh with the Minister, were there minutes of those meetings?

Ms R Flanagan: The two — As I said, there were three meetings in 2012 where the Minister and I were present in the meeting with Mr Walsh. The first of those was also attended by Mr Eamonn McCartan and Mr Mick Cory and was in February, so it's well outside the meeting described by Mr Walsh. The other two were at the end of March and the beginning of May 2012. They were also outside the meetings described by Mr Walsh — regular Friday meetings. They were on Wednesdays.

There were, as I have said, just two meeting where Mr Walsh, the Minister and myself were in the room, as opposed to the full meeting with the board of Sport NI, which is not what we're talking about. Minutes were not taken of those meetings. They weren't meetings as such; they were a courtesy pre-meeting for the Minister to tell Mr Walsh what she was going to be saying to the full board, as I have said already, to give him the courtesy of advance notice of that so that he wasn't just hearing it for the first time when she came into the full meeting. So, that type of meeting — a pre-meeting — wouldn't have minutes.

Mr Humphrey: Would it have notes?

Ms R Flanagan: As I say, as I told you, I would have a notebook with me, and I would jot down just some points. For me, that notebook was just my aide-memoire, to have it there. The Chair will recall, when he was the Minister, I would have done the same in meetings with him. I would have had a notebook. I would have jotted down things — anything particularly to record any action point that I had to take or anything that I needed to tell somebody or something like that. But they were not notes of the meeting; they were an aide-memoire for reference purposes. There wouldn't be minutes of a pre-meeting generally.

Mr Humphrey: Well, I think perhaps if we had had minutes of those meetings, we may have got the clarity and certainty we need around these issues.

Ms R Flanagan: The point is that those two meetings — perhaps I have created a complication here by mentioning two meetings that weren't the meetings that Dominic Walsh was talking about, because they weren't on Fridays, they weren't part of a regular series of meetings and they weren't after the chief executive had gone off sick, which he mentioned a number of times in his evidence. But I just wanted to give the Committee my full recollection of my engagement in any meeting with the Minister and Dominic Walsh, because Mr Walsh, as he said, didn't have notes, and he didn't — you know, he may have been confusing something or thinking of another meeting. So, that's why I wanted to put those two on the record.

Mr Humphrey: And I appreciate that, but I think, Chair, it is a reasonable point that, if minutes had been taken or, indeed, if the notes that Mr Walsh surrendered to the Department had not been destroyed or mislaid or whatever has happened to them, perhaps we might have had certainty and clarity around some of these issues.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Just for the record, I think his notes maybe went to Sport NI rather than directly to the Department.

Mr Humphrey: But it is still part of the Department.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): It is part of the Department. Yes, that is correct.

Ms R Flanagan: The point is that I actually, somewhat fortuitously and accidentally, have retained my notes. I am well aware that it is difficult to prove a negative — that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that my notes don't mention emergency exiting, you could say to me, doesn't mean that it wasn't mentioned, but I would say to you that, if something of that nature had been said in a pre-meeting or in any meeting, I would at least have written a couple of words down to that effect in my notebook. I am absolutely certain that those discussions did not take place at either of those two pre-meetings.

Mr Humphrey: I get the veracity in which you are making your point. I am simply just going to say in conclusion that, you know, this is a public — this is an inquiry into the issue of emergency exiting, which is hugely important, with a significant investment of, I think, around £60 million by government. I find it incredible and the people out there will find it incredible that, when meetings like this are held around this issue, that there are no notes officially taken or minutes kept. I find that just incredible. Thank you.

Ms R Flanagan: But the point about these two meetings is they weren't meetings about these issues; they were meetings about other issues.

Mr Humphrey: They may have been talks about talks, but they were meetings with the permanent secretary, the Minister and the head of Sport NI. I will make the point and leave it.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): We have explored that. We will take David Hilditch.

Mr Hilditch: Thanks, Chair, and you're very welcome again this morning, Rosalie, to come along before us. I think we had established at your previous visit that you had a fair understanding of what the processes were and what the requirements were, and, hence, we had looked at that letter that you had issued in relation to Windsor and how it had come along and overcome challenges and whatnot and turned into a more successful build.

Just going on the demolition of the house situation again, obviously, you were in situ until April '13, isn't that right? Around that time. And then, shortly after that, some drawings appeared from design teams and whatnot in relation to what appeared to be overcoming issues, and it did show the demolition of housing. So, it was in the ether somewhere. Somebody was talking about it somewhere. Are you somewhat surprised, as permanent secretary, that you didn't know then, at April '13, before you left, that there was these suggestions? Did it come as a surprise?

Ms R Flanagan: I can just say that I wasn't aware of it. The process, as I think I described in detail at my last appearance here, was what it was, and I wasn't aware of those. I couldn't answer your question. Was I surprised? You'd have to have the whole context of the process.

Mr Hilditch: Yes. It is just that, for us —

Ms R Flanagan: I do want to go back to the fact that I am really here to talk about Dominic Walsh's evidence, and I just wanted to keep —

Mr Hilditch: I think he mentioned demolition of housing. That's why I raised demolition of housing. So, I am on the right —

Ms R Flanagan: Actually, when I read Hansard, Dominic Walsh didn't actually mention demolition of housing; he mentioned purchase of housing a number of times. The word "demolition" was only mentioned by some members of this Committee in that evidence, just to be clear. I have studied what —

Mr Hilditch: That is right.

Ms R Flanagan: — Dominic Walsh said and —

Mr Hilditch: The plans emerged afterwards. The purchased houses were going to be demolished, let's put it like that, I think.

There was an email in April '13, just before, I think, you retired from office, from, I think it was, Carl Southern to Paul Scott in relation to trying to get some information on exiting to facilitate a meeting with the Minister where this would potentially be raised. So, again, the matter is being raised at that level, and, again, I know you're top of the pile and this is maybe something going on down below, but are you saying that, again, you wouldn't have known anything of Mr Sutherland's — Mr Southern's enquiry?

Ms R Flanagan: I am just — I mean, I will get boring. I can only repeat that I didn't know anything about this while I was in the Department.

Mr Hilditch: OK, no problem. We established as well at your previous visit I think Mr Colin Watson had come along to the Committee as a director, an acting grade 5, as you recall, in sports branch, which had the stadium programme as one element of it. He attended here around 2012-13. In the food chain of command or whatever, who would have been briefing Mr Watson to come to the Committee to tell us about the stadium developments at that stage? What was the sort of chain?

Ms R Flanagan: I wouldn't — I don't think it's relevant to what Dominic Walsh has said, but the people in the stadium programme team, I think it was called, in the Department and Mr Watson would have worked closely together.

Mr Hilditch: That's no problem — just to say that that was during Mr Walsh's time. Thank you, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK. If I could raise just a couple of points here myself. How often would you have met with Dominic Walsh on your own or with — whether or not the Minister was there, just? How often would there have been engagement or interaction? Was that frequent? How frequent?

Ms R Flanagan: It wouldn't have been very frequent, no. I think I only met him on his own three times in 2012.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Or in meetings with others — other officials or whatever.

Ms R Flanagan: Not very often, would be the answer.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Would that be sort of once a month or once every two months or —

Ms R Flanagan: Well, in 2012 — are you talking about in 2012?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: I recall I had a one-to-one meeting with him, which was his appraisal as chair in January. I then had a — not really a meeting, but I met him and had a discussion with him at his request, because his first term was coming to an end and he was deciding whether to go for a second term. In the end, he decided not to go for a second term. I had another meeting when he came to see me at his request just after the meeting on 28 March, where the Minister had discussed with the board taking the stadium programme into the Department and away from Sport NI. He came to see me just to brief me on the reaction from the board members and from the chief executive and from the staff to that decision by the Minister. Apart from that, I don't recall any other meetings. I did attend one board meeting in Sport NI in the summer of 2012, but that would have been with the whole board.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK.

Ms R Flanagan: And then he left on 10 September.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Within the Department, the electronic diary, were you able to check that for meetings with him or whoever before coming here?

Ms R Flanagan: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So, the diary for that period for all meetings is still on the system from your time.

Ms R Flanagan: I don't exactly know, because I'm not there, but I asked the question, could they tell me anything — the meetings that I had with Dominic Walsh, and there was really only —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So, we're relying there — just to be clear on that point, then, you haven't actually seen the diary. It's only officials in the Department that have seen this diary since — you know, since the request was made for information.

Ms R Flanagan: Yes, well, I wouldn't have seen it. I wouldn't be in the Department.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): No, no —

Ms R Flanagan: But what is — the information that was given to me confirmed my own recollection of when I — you know, my engagement with Dominic Walsh. I think it's worth saying that the period around the middle of 2012 was a difficult one because of the issues around the stadium programme being brought into the Department and all of those issues, so I have quite a good recollection of what happened then. I mean, a lot of other things going on about, obviously, the Olympics and the Paralympics and —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Indeed.

Ms R Flanagan: — preparation for the World Police and Fire Games and City of Culture and lots of things, but that was probably one of the difficult issues that I was dealing with.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): But the core point, I suppose, there is that the full diary of the permanent secretary from that period is still there on the system in the Department.

Ms R Flanagan: You would have to ask the Department that. I only know what I know, which is that I asked them could they tell me — really, could they confirm for me what I recalled as being the times that I met —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): What —

Ms R Flanagan: But I am not sure. I mean, that's not really relevant to what Dominic Walsh said in his evidence, which I'm being asked to answer today.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): When meetings took place with Mr Walsh, where would they have taken place normally?

Ms R Flanagan: With the Minister, they would've taken place in the Minister's room —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Take that first one —

Ms R Flanagan: — or the boardroom.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Down in Causeway —

Ms R Flanagan: In Causeway. Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): — Exchange. Yes. And if you were meeting Mr Walsh —

Ms R Flanagan: Sorry, I know — I'm speaking here under affirmation, so I don't want to be —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): No, I know —

Ms R Flanagan: — saying —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): That makes sense to me.

Ms R Flanagan: — something that's not true. I mean, sometimes, the Minister would've had meetings in Parliament Buildings —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Yes.

Ms R Flanagan: — on Mondays and Tuesdays.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK.

Ms R Flanagan: And —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): And if you were meeting him separately from that, if you were just meeting Mr Walsh —

Ms R Flanagan: In Causeway.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): In Causeway.

Ms R Flanagan: In Causeway, yes. Well, actually, the time — I mentioned the occasion when he asked to talk to me about his thinking about going for a second term: I actually went to a local cafe and had a cup of coffee with him there. So, that was just for completeness again for the record, but my meetings with him would have been in Causeway. Obviously, when I went to the Sport NI board meeting, that was in the House of Sport. So, for meetings, that was — that would have been the norm.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I think we've asked for information about diaries, what's been retained in terms of diaries and so on. We've asked about that.

There's a point here, and it really gets to the heart of the whole thing. It's something that has been in our minds, I think, with a lot of the folk that we've been receiving evidence from. There was a sort of architecture or structure there, with a safety technical group, and you had Noel Molloy and permanent secretary and Minister and all sorts of folk, and there was a, if I can put my hand on it — I maybe can't — there was a diagram given to us at one time of, if I can find it there, the DCAL stadium programme governance structure, which had, at the top, the stadium sponsor board chaired by the Minister. Then, in below that, the stadium programme, with the senior responsible officer in charge there, and then the stadium programme managed by the director and then a sort of parallel system for each of the three sports going down to the safety technical groups. At that period, in the summer of 2012 — we're talking about a period there where it was brought into the Department, I think, at the start of 2012.

Ms R Flanagan: On 30 April 2012.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): On 30 April. And Eamonn McCartan actually left then within a matter of days. No, so he went off sick shortly after that.

Ms R Flanagan: He went off sick in the middle of May. I'm not sure of the exact date —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Within a few weeks.

Ms R Flanagan: — but it was around 10 May or 11 May that I was notified of it, so I don't know when he went off.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): So, over that period of sort of April to September/October, when Dominic Walsh retired, that structure was in place. You were on the stadium sponsor board, then the stadium programme SRO.

What does that actually mean "Stadium programme SRO"? Was there a stadium programme board, or does that mean the stadium programme was being managed, in some way, by the senior responsible officer?

Ms R Flanagan: I am sorry. You are asking me questions now which I haven't really given a lot of thought to, because I was focusing on these issues. Could you maybe just repeat the question? Again, I mean, I have to say, Chair, I don't think it's particularly relevant to Dominic Walsh's evidence.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): If you don't wish to answer it, that's fine; I appreciate that. It was just an opportunity to get it clear in our own minds, because we've been given a diagram. If you pass it round there. Members will have it in their pack somewhere, but I've only got a — I ran a few of them off, because I couldn't quite —.

It does become very difficult for us, I'm sure you'll appreciate, because it is such a complicated issue. And I think it goes back to the point then, you see, that would you not have expected to — you were with us before, and you said that you weren't aware of issues about emergency exiting. That's the core of this, and David Hilditch touched on it there. Are you not surprised that it wasn't raised with you?

Ms R Flanagan: I don't have the Hansard of what I said before with me, but I think that — I don't think it's a question of sitting here in 2016 trying to speculate what I would or wouldn't have been surprised about in 2012. The process structures, the systems were there, and different people had different responsibilities. And, as far as I was concerned, this governance structure was in place, and it was followed.

In terms of governance structure, I can't be specific, but there were a number of changes of governance structure as the programme developed, you know, from its early days in Sport NI, and then a new structure just, I think, shortly before the stadium programme was brought into the Department. And then, when it came into the Department, we had to set up a new structure, and then, when we had gateway reviews, we would've maybe revised those structures. But I am really not in a position to give you definitive answers. And I'm very cautious, because I am under affirmation and —

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I appreciate that.

Ms R Flanagan: — I've had legal advice, and I just want to be cautious of what I say and what you're asking me.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Absolutely. It was Mr Dunne, who is not with us at the moment, had posed the question:

And your answer was:

Ms R Flanagan: Uh-huh.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): And.

Ms R Flanagan: I think in terms of what we're talking about here, that's the point. Whether I might've been aware of it, I should've been aware of it, I could've been aware of it is really not the point. For me here today, my position is I was not aware of it.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Mr Hilditch referred — you see, this is where it gets difficult. He referred there to a diagram that we were given by Sport NI, which has a date on it. The date is actually outside your period within — it's about a month after you had left the Department. And it shows, on one side, what appear to me to be two houses being demolished to make way for — purchased and demolished to make way for exiting. And then, on the other side, it appears to be part of a house or part of two houses. So, probably four houses altogether — two on each side affected. And I think that's what Mr Hilditch was referring to: this thing that, at that time, over that summer, within the system somewhere, there was discussion about the demolition of properties — purchase and demolition of properties. Now, it's not the same point in time exactly as Mr Walsh, because he had left in the autumn of 2012. You were saying at that stage, when you were with us, that you never — [Interruption.]

The Committee Clerk: Chair, if somebody has a phone that's functioning, can they just turn it to "airplane", because it's going to buzz all over the sound system. Sorry.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): "I was unaware of emergency exiting issue", and yet it was being put on bits of paper or plans by Populous and the GAA on — it reads to me here; it's very small print — 10 May '13, and I think you'd left in April. Nobody ever mentioned any of those things to you?

Ms R Flanagan: No.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Within the structure, who should've mentioned it to you? Who was the person who was meant to keep you appraised of all that's going on?

Ms R Flanagan: I mean, there's an assumption in what you're asking me that somebody should have mentioned it to me. At this distance of time and not being au fait with everything, I can't really answer that, and, as I've said already, I don't think it's relevant to what Dominic Walsh has asserted here that is contradictory to what I'm saying.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Yeah. Well, could I just ask finally the question: on this diagram, the person on the next rung down in the ladder or in the structure was the stadium programme director, and that was Noel Molloy. What did he ever — what did he tell you or not? How did he keep you informed of all these things?

Ms R Flanagan: All what things?

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Issues around the stadium programme. If somebody is the senior responsible officer, the buck stops there, in a sense. There is a responsibility that goes with being the — I think "SRO" does mean senior responsible officer. If there is a responsibility there, who keeps the person who is the senior responsible officer informed?

Ms R Flanagan: I don't think I have really anything to add to what I said when these questions were put to me in September, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): I am not sure if that —

Ms R Flanagan: I think that, you know, such a question would have to be contextualised, and, as I say, it's not relevant to what I'm here today to respond to.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): Well, we'll pursue that in other ways.

Mr Ó hOisín: Thank you, Rosalie. Rosalie, just to get this back to where we should be at in this, is the difference of opinion between yourselves and Dominic Walsh, whose evidence has been described in other fora as "compelling and convincing". There was three meetings with yourself, the Minister and Dominic Walsh — one in March, two in May.

Ms R Flanagan: One in February, one in March and one in May.

Mr Ó hOisín: Sorry, one in February, one in March and one in May. At the May meeting — the third May meeting — Jarlath Kearney was also present.

Ms R Flanagan: Yes.

Mr Ó hOisín: He was not present at the February or March meetings.

Ms R Flanagan: He wasn't in the Department then.

Mr Ó hOisín: Was there anybody else present at any of those other two meetings, informal or otherwise?

Ms R Flanagan: Well, as I said, the February meeting, I understand, was attended also by Eamonn McCartan, the chief executive of Sport NI, and Mick Cory, who was the head of sport in DCAL at the time.

Mr Ó hOisín: Yeah, OK.

Ms R Flanagan: And, at the 28 March meeting, it was just — in that pre-meeting, there was just Mr Walsh, the Minister and myself, and, on 2 May, Jarlath Kearney was also in the room.

Mr Ó hOisín: OK, thank you. And what was discussed at that meeting? Do you remember?

Ms R Flanagan: At which one?

Mr Ó hOisín: The May meeting.

Ms R Flanagan: The May meeting was where the Minister was just having a courtesy pre-meeting with Mr Walsh before she told the board about her governance concerns, and I had, as I recall, sent Mr Walsh a note earlier in the day telling him what the list of governance concerns were, and there was some discussion about some of those at the pre-meeting.

Mr Ó hOisín: So, as far as you —

Ms R Flanagan: It wasn't about the stadium.

Mr Ó hOisín: No. OK. So, as far as you were concerned, there wasn't regular meetings as such.

Ms R Flanagan: Absolutely not, no.

Mr Ó hOisín: There was no July meeting.

Ms R Flanagan: No.

Mr Ó hOisín: And there were no Friday meetings —

Ms R Flanagan: No.

Mr Ó hOisín: — that you're aware of. OK. I think you have clarified the four houses in the opposite. Like Rosie, I was unsure what that meant actually, what constitutes —

Ms R Flanagan: I am not sure what it meant, but I was simply quoting from what Mr Walsh had said.

Mr Ó hOisín: Yeah, you've clarified that. That's pretty clear, Rosalie. Thank you.

Ms R Flanagan: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): OK. Thank you. Nobody else has any other questions. OK. Thank you very much, indeed. That'll feed into our discussions and deliberations.

Ms R Flanagan: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr McCausland): And we appreciate your coming and answering the questions.

Ms R Flanagan: Thank you very much.