Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I welcome to the meeting Noyona Chundur, who is the chief executive of the Consumer Council and is known to many Committees in the Assembly, and Sean Breen, the director of financial and postal services at the Consumer Council. Thank you both for joining us. Noyona, I do not know whether you want to make a brief opening statement. Thank you for the information and for assisting us with the inquiry. I suspect that the inquiry will rely a lot on some of the work that you have done.

Ms Noyona Chundur (Consumer Council for Northern Ireland): I am very happy to do so, Chair. Thank you and good afternoon, everyone. It is nice to see some of you again.

If I may, I will begin with a short summary of who we are and what we do. We are very grateful for the invitation to speak to the Committee. We are Northern Ireland's statutory consumer body, and we were established, as some of you may know, in April 1985 as a non-departmental public body. We are sponsored by the Department for the Economy, but we work across all Departments. That is because our statutory powers cover consumer affairs, energy, water, transport, post and food accessibility, but we also have a brief in financial inclusion and EU exit matters. We deliver consumer outcomes by working in partnership with government, academia, industry and civil society here, across the UK and in Europe. Everything that we do is framed by eight consumer protection principles: access, choice, safety, information, fairness, redress, representation and education. They help us identify where the consumer interests lie, but they also help us set the minimum standards that we expect from any UK market. While we champion and represent the needs of everyone to build consumer confidence, we prioritise those who are disabled or chronically sick, those of pensionable age, those on low incomes and those living in rural areas. Our founding legislation gives us the powers to undertake research, deliver advice and information campaigns, investigate complaints, conduct inquiries and advise public authorities on any matter relating to consumer rights or consumer affairs.

Since 2018, we have been funded by HM Treasury to carry out research, advocacy, outreach and education projects to increase the knowledge of the risks of illegal lending amongst consumers. We work with partners to reduce the use of illegal lending here. Our specific responsibilities in financial services are in annex 1 of the briefing document that we provided to the Committee. Our responsibilities are to improve understanding of illegal lending; chair Northern Ireland's responsible lending forum, which we established; develop consumer education programmes on responsible lending and budgeting; deliver small loan projects with regulated lenders and community organisations; train other organisations on responsible lending, with a focus on civil society organisations; and, perhaps most importantly, advocate on behalf of consumers to support financial inclusion here.

Next year marks 40 years of the Consumer Council. That is a significant milestone for any organisation, but, for us, it follows what have perhaps been some of the most difficult times in recent history for people, businesses and communities. We believe that everyone is a consumer, so our role is to listen, engage, represent and respond at pace to evolving consumer needs. That is what we have done in the past four years as we have grappled with the far-reaching impacts of one crisis after another.

Today, consumers still face a complex picture. Our research has found that around 64% of our economic output is driven by consumer spending, so our collective economic success and prosperity is inextricably linked to consumers and their affordability and well-being. I hope that that is fundamental to our discussion today, because financial inclusion is essential for economic growth and increasing living standards for all our citizens. The banking and financial services available to them will be a key enabler. Our submission to the Committee covers four areas, and it draws on our own research and analysis, but also on that of such partners as the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), the Financial Inclusion Commission, other Departments, Advice NI and Christians Against Poverty. We hope that the four areas will be key considerations for the Committee as it starts the inquiry process. They are the banking landscape and its impact on consumers and communities here; people's financial lives; the affordability crisis that many still face; and how we can work collectively to advance financial inclusion.

I will look now at the banking landscape. To achieve equality of access, we need to challenge and reduce exclusion. Success is dependent on collaboration and co-design between consumers, government, industry and civil society. Improving access is therefore equally important. Consumer behaviour is also changing, as is the shift to digital markets. Digital delivery, although popular, should not limit consumer access or choice, and the needs of communities and population demographics must be considered. The Consumer Council accepts that the financial services sector is shifting to new delivery models, such as banking hubs, for example, but they must offer the range of financial products and services, and service local community needs, in an accessible and responsive way. We cannot achieve financial inclusion without digital inclusion. Many vulnerable groups who may already be marginalised from mainstream access can struggle with digital literacy and capability, and that, in turn, increases their barriers to access.

When we look at people's financial lives, as we think about and plan our banking and financial services, we also need to consider our unique characteristics, which may resonate with a number of members. More of us live in rural areas, most of us use cash more, we have lower financial resilience, and we are also more at risk from other drivers of exclusion. Our research, which is shared with the Committee in our submission, highlights lower financial capability, access challenges from rurality or digital exclusion, debt issues and high-risk borrowing, particularly among vulnerable groups, and the impacts of the poverty premium. Our analysis also highlights the fact that financial inclusion can actually mean quite different things to different groups of people. These issues can be mitigated only if we have tailored policies to address the root cause of exclusion, underpinned by a robust, consumer-centric regulatory framework.

In that context, advancing financial inclusion will require enabling access to the right products and services at the right time, including accessible credit, with financial education and advice that have pathways for savings and debt advice, especially for vulnerable groups. We cannot ignore affordability. If we are committed to inclusion, we must also accept that the affordability challenges that many consumers face will impact on their ability to access and use the products, services and support that they need to participate fully in society. Because of our vulnerable population, that may be a bigger challenge for us than for other parts of the UK. We have the lowest average discretionary household income of any region of the UK. It is almost half the UK average. Our latest household expenditure tracker, which we launched yesterday, found that the lowest earning households have a weekly discretionary income of less than £50 after paying for essentials, and 6% less income after tax than the UK average. Many are struggling with the cost of basics like food, rent, energy and transport. Although we have found that consumer sentiment has improved slightly, a third felt that their household would be worse off in 12 months' time and 43% said that it was worse off compared with 12 months ago. When we look at financial inclusion, we also need to look at the fact that there is significant disparity between consumer experiences, with the highest-earning households having 14 times more discretionary income than the lowest earners. We need a level playing field where opportunities can be grasped by all citizens.

It is equally important to connect what people experience day to day with any policy or reform that is needed to protect consumers and provide the products, services and support that they need; to empower consumers to make informed decisions about spending, saving and borrowing; and to access financial products and services with confidence and avoid persistent debt. Their interests must be placed at the centre of policy and regulation. We believe that that requires a coordinated and ambitious response across government, regulation, industry and civil society, including the Consumer Council, with consumers and communities identifying the issues that mean most to them and helping us to find solutions that will work for them.

In conclusion, I will highlight two things. First, the UK Government are due to launch their national financial inclusion strategy. That represents an opportunity for us all to develop a supporting action plan that is tailored for the unique considerations of our community and financial services sector. Secondly, the Consumer Council is well placed to support that ambition, given our experience of advancing consumer interests by convening and advising stakeholders and always advocating for growth that benefits consumers, businesses and markets equally.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Thank you very much. Thank you, again, for coming to brief us. To open up the questions — it is kind of reflected in the reports that you have provided to us — is it fair to say that Northern Ireland is in a worse position with regard to access to financial services, including, but not limited to, cash and branch services, than other parts of these islands?

Ms Chundur: I do not think that I can give a yes/no answer to that, Chair, but I will try to give some sort of a response. We have a higher vulnerable population so, with market access, when it comes to things like digital literacy, digital capability and digital competency, as we move products and services online, that may have an impact. Our heightened rurality — we have double the level of rurality in Northern Ireland than any other jurisdiction of the UK — will play into the issue.

Financial services is a very broad sector, and our research and evidence, as you will see, focuses on access to cash and access to banking services. From that perspective, we can confidently say that we prefer cash in Northern Ireland. We have double the cash usage and we also take out more cash. I will ask Sean to come in, but I think that we take out almost twice the amount of cash as the next highest area of the UK, which is the north-east or north-west. Access to cash and access to banking services is definitely a consideration.

The second part of your question was about these islands. Our comparison is between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. We do not have any information on the island of Ireland.

Mr Sean Breen (Consumer Council for Northern Ireland): I will come in on that point. Northern Ireland consumers withdraw an average of £2,340 per annum. The second highest behind that is the north-east of England at £1,718 per annum.

Ms Chundur: Roughly double.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Actual withdrawals of cash?

Ms Chundur: Yes, withdrawals of cash. We are not only twice as dependent on using cash, we are actually using more cash to do our day-to-day business. I appreciate that we have given you a lot of information, but I hope that it is a useful reference guide for members. We have given you a lot of information and tables on what people are using cash for. The FCA's financial lives survey has a lot of rich data on what people are using cash for, why they like to use cash and the thinking behind that.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): To what extent are credit unions a distinctive feature of our banking landscape in a way that they are not across the water?

Mr Breen: I will take that. From the Irish League of Credit Unions' recent manifesto, we know that one in every three people in Northern Ireland has a credit union account. That is a huge proportion of the population. Across Northern Ireland, there are 83 credit unions affiliated with the Irish League of Credit Unions and 38 affiliated with the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions. We do not have comparisons with the UK figures to see whether we have more reliance on credit unions when compared with the UK.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Fair enough.

Ms Forsythe: Thank you both for coming today and for all the detailed papers that you provided. The evidence is really helpful and useful. I represent South Down, which is a particularly rural constituency down through the Mournes. Since becoming an MLA, I have experienced a lot of bank closures and moving away from things. Kilkeel was the first area to get a banking hub set up. The FCA guidance and the triggers for setting up the banking hubs are all very clear but, from your feedback from consumers, how well are the banking hubs meeting the needs of consumers?

Mr Breen: I am happy to take that one. At the moment, we do not have any evidence on consumer experiences of the banking hubs, but we know that, at the moment, banking hubs are in their infancy. They provide a very limited range of services at the moment. Other proposed services by UK Finance will come into the banking hubs by the end of 2024. Hopefully, as those additional services come into play, that will increase consumers' experiences and increase the offer to consumers across Northern Ireland.

Ms Chundur: Would it be helpful if we recapped what is currently available and what is coming online? As far as we know, at each banking hub, you can pay in cash and cheques, withdraw cash, check your balance, pay utility bills, top up your gas and electricity and access any change-giving services, which are mainly for small businesses. There is also the community banker facility, which is rotated once a week. Consumers can talk to the banker about more complex requests. By complex, I mean payments and transfers and managing their accounts, or even help with using online banking.

Sean mentioned work that UK Finance has carried out. It is looking to expand the list of services from community bankers. That could include notification of bereavement, fraud support, identification services, power of eternity — I have said that wrong again — attorney. I do not know what power of eternity means, but it sounds nice. Money and debt advice —.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I think that is a different evidence session. [Laughter.]

Ms Chundur: Please do not call us to that. [Laughter.]

It could also include registering a complaint. Hopefully, we are moving to a time at which we are, relatively quickly, going to start to see a more holistic package of support available to communities and consumers. It does not take away the rurality of Northern Ireland, however. Our rurality is quite different; we are very dispersed, so the challenge of serving community needs is greater. That is where we need to coalesce to try to find a solution. If we are moving to banking hubs, and if they meet the needs of most people in communities, that is fine, but let us have enough of them.

Mr Breen: I will add something on the other services that could be offered. We represent Northern Ireland consumers on the LINK community cash advisory panel. A recent opinion was given around the offer of priority non-cash services in banking hubs, moving forward. The opinion stated that opening an account, getting a printed mini-statement and changing recurring or variable payments or standing orders could also be basic services. You talked about bank branch closures in a town, particularly the last branch. The basic access point is opening an account. At the moment, you cannot do that in a banking hub. That opinion came out. As I said, we are part of the representation for consumers on that.

Ms Forsythe: That is great; thank you. Common feedback that I get is about the bank closures, which everyone is concerned about. They have the banking hub, and there was a feeling that that was going to tick all the boxes, but the banking hub is a nine-to-five expansion of Post Office banking services. It is not an access to cash point, so a lot of people are still unable to access cash out of hours when they are in the area. You talked about people in Northern Ireland being twice as likely to use cash and to lift larger amounts. Is access to free cash a key concern that you see coming through from consumers?

Mr Breen: We are hoping that the new FCA rules, which were implemented in September, will come into play to protect consumers and their access to cash. Predating those new rules, there were voluntary arrangements through LINK, as the coordinating body. At this moment, the issue sits within the regulatory perimeters of the FCA, and we are hoping that those increased protections will at least maintain access to cash levels.

Ms Chundur: They will hopefully enhance it.

Ms Forsythe: Absolutely. In previous evidence sessions, we have heard that there is evidence that, in Northern Ireland, businesses are using banking hubs a lot more than they do in the rest of the UK. It is interesting to see how we are using the banking services.

Mr Breen: That is particularly relevant to the Kilkeel banking hub. It will be interesting to see whether that usage pattern continues across the other hubs that have opened and the hubs that are soon to open.

Ms Chundur: We are not the experts, but you have the Federation of Small Businesses coming in after us. We are a microbusiness economy. Some 89% of our business base is made up of microbusinesses. They interact with financial markets — many markets — in exactly the same way as consumers. As businesses, they can lean towards cash, predominantly, so the dependency of the business community on cash access is significant. Therefore, it is not just consumers to whom we need to give due consideration.

Ms Forsythe: Finally, on the financial inclusion issues, you referenced data on older people having access and difficulty in digital access. It is quite a common thing that I hear about in my office. Some services have gone completely online, and a lot of older people do not have online banking or a smartphone. They are actually coming in quite concerned, asking me to pay their bills and they will give me cash into my hand. That is how distressed a lot of the older people are. It is something that I am concerned about. It is not a comfortable place for an elected representative — to be setting up people's personal banking. Again, it comes back to what you said: it is something that is not accessible through the hubs. Is setting up bank accounts, and giving people safety and confidence, a high priority in financial inclusion?

Ms Chundur: Absolutely. As I said in my opening comments, your financial life is fundamental to how well you participate in society. In our briefing, we have included a section on digital and financial literacy and financial education. Sorry: we have a slightly more detailed document than the one that is in front of you. I am referring to "Financial literacy", which is at point 42, and then it goes on to digital literacy.

In financial education, we are not talking about teaching people how to add up but about teaching people and supporting them to transition to a digital-first model where they can take control of their financial life. That is really important to run parallel to any products and services that we introduce or interventions that we make, because vulnerable groups need to be supported appropriately. Not everybody has the same needs, even within those groups. We need to be really mindful of that. We certainly advocate for that. That is what we try to do through our outreach work.

Mr Carroll: Thanks very much for your presentation. Importantly, you mentioned that there are higher poverty levels and that people have less disposable income here. That is really important, especially when there is always talk in Stormont about an economic level playing field. It is obvious that it is not even; it is very uneven. There are obviously class divides in England, as there are elsewhere, but the North is generally worse off.

Can you expand on the fact that 8% of households have no current bank account, if I have read that correctly? Are those people relying on dependants or carers? Are they people who make joint claims or rely on other people's benefits? I am surprised that the percentage is so high. I am keen to get further information on that cohort of people.

Ms Chundur: I think that that may be from our lending, savings and debt research. I am just trying to find the reference. Have you got that in front of you, Gerry? Maybe you can —

Mr Carroll: I have not got the page number, no.

Ms Chundur: — point us to the right number? We will dig that out. It is the unbanked population. I will give Sean some time to try and find that. In the meantime, I will talk about the unbanked population. The need to transition the unbanked population into mainstream banking is really important because, whilst they might be a small cohort, they are significantly at risk. If it does say 8% of households, Gerry, I will just have to put my hands up and say that that is a typo. It should not have said that. I would be very surprised if 8% of households do not have a bank account.

Mr Carroll: OK. I do not have the page number at hand, but it said that it was 8% here and 5% in Britain. You can come back to me if that is not the case.

Mr Breen: Gerry, I have just found the reference. That is from the 'Financial inclusion in the UK' report. That is referencing —.

Ms Chundur: I think that it refers to population.

Mr Breen: Yes. It states:

Ms Chundur: We will have to take that away to confirm for you whether the 8% relates to "Northern Ireland and the north-west of England" or to "Northern Ireland or the north-west of England". Can I come back to you on that?

Mr Carroll: That is fine. If possible, can you provide a breakdown on why it is so high?

Ms Chundur: Sure.

Mr Carroll: Obviously, it is due partly to poverty levels, but is it dependants or people on benefits or whatever?

I have just another two questions, please, and that is me. Can you expand on the concept of inclusive credit scoring, particularly for people who have no bank accounts and also for those who are generally excluded from mainstream financial products and services? Can you expand on what that would look like as well?

Ms Chundur: I am very happy to. It is in there because the focus of our evidence to the Committee has been very much on the golden thread of financial inclusion. You need to participate in the system and build up a credit history in order to effectively avail yourself of what is on offer to you. Inclusive credit scoring is key, particularly for newcomer communities, the unbanked population whom we need to transition, and vulnerable groups who are potentially in persistent debt. It goes back to our household expenditure tracker and the four income quartiles. In the quarter of the household population who have only £50 a week of discretionary income, many of those individuals and households may be on benefits and may not have the potential to access the range of products and services that they need.

They are not building up a credit history because they may be in a negative budget and do not have enough capacity to absorb any shocks. If you are not building up your credit score, how can you build financial resilience? We have not done any work on the solutions for that inclusion and what it might look like. However, we want to advance that with the Committee or other groups to determine what that could mean for Northern Ireland and across the UK.

Mr Carroll: Thanks. I have a final question about the financial inclusion strategy. You said that the consultation is being launched. What is your understating of what the UK Government are considering for here; for example, themes, issues and possible action points?

Ms Chundur: We do not have a timetable for the national financial inclusion strategy. It was a commitment from Labour before they came into power. The vision for the national financial inclusion strategy is drawn from Labour's policy priorities. They are listed at point 96 of the briefing paper as:

Then, specifically, under consumer protection and financial inclusion, it includes:

buy now, pay later, which we have also given you a section about in the written submission, and —

The issues around the unbanked population and inclusive credit scoring and all those things fit under the pillars of the strategy. Hopefully, that has answered your question.

Mr Carroll: Yes. That is very good. Thank you.

Miss Hargey: Thanks very much for the update. It is very useful, and it feeds into what we already know about more cash being used here. We see that in our supermarkets in comparison to any across the water or in the South. We saw it during the pandemic. It really shows the vulnerabilities here. What would be the impact of population size in the six counties in the North if we were to look at alternative financial models? I know that people looked previously at community mutual societies and things like that for a community wealth-building approach, but do we have the population in the North to sustain that? What alternatives could we have?

I also want to ask about the link to poverty and how, when you are looking at financial solutions, the poorest are punished, whether that is around pay as you go or repaying debt. If you are on a payment plan, you are paying more than if you had paid outright, so you are being punished. Could there be alternative solutions to that?

You talked about the fact that there is no resilience here. Are there proposals or community programmes at a more local level that we could look at? On developing a whole-government approach, whether that is the Assembly, local government or Westminster, what could the practical interventions be? For example, a policy change, a legislative change or a programme that we wound invest in?

I want to touch on the role of AI and the changes in technology. You said that financial institutions are moving online, and that is a battle for us because of digital exclusion. How will that technology advance over the next period? If we already have a delay in training people in those skills, what will that look like as the technology speeds up in the next decade? What are the challenges for our unique circumstances?

You mentioned that we are working in a global financial system. We are tied, as Westminster has most of the control over policy and legislation in this area. However, what about an alternative approach to building community wealth, such as plural ownership of our economy? You mentioned that the bedrock of our economy is small and microbusinesses, and there is also the role of workers in the economy and alternative economic development routes. What could we do in those areas that has not been looked at? The Scottish Government have appointed a Minister with responsibility for building community wealth. There was a community wealth-building report here in 2022, and the Finance Minister and Department are doing a pilot scheme with the Department for the Economy.

What more could we do with plural ownership and collective bargaining for consumers? How can we get consumers to work collectively for a better deal or outcome? Can that approach be used by microbusinesses for lending opportunities and prices for products? Can we do things to use the mass of people to come together to create more democratic control of our financial institutions?

Sorry, that was a lot.

Ms Chundur: I have written down as many questions as I think were asked, but I will lean on you to keep me right.

I will start with the first question, and you talked about our population size. Our population is small; we are 3% of the UK population. That presents challenges when you are looking at scaling and socialising costs. However, I propose that it is an opportunity for us to pivot quickly and look at solutions that really work for our people and communities and use those as pilots to scale for the rest of the country. To me, it is an opportunity.

We are very connected at a grassroots level, which is fantastic, and that is another opportunity. A lot of what you talked about is empowering, enabling and activating that community network. We can do that here, and financial inclusion is about community participation. It is about bringing people into the system but also allowing them to shape that system. When you have a small population and a connected network, those things can be realised relatively quickly and tested quite robustly to scale up. I suspect — we do not have any evidence; I am basing this on my knowledge in this space — that our financial inclusion challenges are not that different from those faced in Scotland or Wales, and that is an opportunity for partnership. We can be the test bed for solutions that are being built from the ground up, and that moves into the community lending and community solutions space that you have talked about. Ask people what they want, and ask them to help us develop the solution.

We talk about consumer engagement and activation and community engagement, activation and net zero — rightly so: it is a huge challenge — and we should do the same when it comes to financial inclusion, because, again, it is the participative power of our communities and society to do better. We do not have any specific solutions about what communities could do more of, but we can come back to you if that would be helpful.

AI is very interesting because of the levels of financial capability and resilience that we have, so we need to lift that floor. We need to get people — vulnerable pockets of the population — more comfortable with interacting with digital models and platforms. How do we do that in a way that they are more confident using it and more empowered but also doing it in a safe way? So it is about interacting. AI potentially needs to be considered through the lens of how is it disadvantaging any groups of the population and how does it advance access, choice and knowledge? Ultimately, if AI is used for good, that is fine. It is a problem if people are excluded as a result of AI, or if vulnerable groups are marginalised further because of decisions that logarithms are making, and we are just none the wiser. That is not a space that the Consumer Council is an expert in, in any way. As I said in my opening comments, we look at this through the prism of consumer protection principles. Whatever is on offer, we ask whether there is fair access, is it safe, are people protected, are they duly represented, what education do they need and what are the redress pathways? Those are the sorts of things that we need to know. We will always come back to those factors to frame our engagement and advice.

I apologise: I have forgotten the question about global systems because I cannot read the scrawl that I have written on my book.

Miss Hargey: We are, obviously, connected to a wider financial system.

Ms Chundur: Yes.

Miss Hargey: So for me, it is about how we start to develop new models of local economic development that suit the needs of the people in the area —

Ms Chundur: The wider community.

Miss Hargey: — and local businesses. Could we potentially use a community wealth-building approach in the same way as they do in Scotland, where it is reflective of that and there are more financial offerings? If there were greater ownership here, could it be pivoted a lot more quickly? You could respond to emerging situations, with the wealth not being extracted but recycled into the local economy. In the case of credit unions, if they were community mutuals, how could they reinvest their profits to tackle climate challenges or poverty and the kind of resilience issues that you have raised?

Ms Chundur: Particularly in climate, from our research, we have found that people are very invested in it if they can understand and see value and benefit for their local community. That is what gets people interested, engaged and committed to something.

As to enabling those communities, there are, maybe, two considerations. There is the formal regulatory perimeter around that, that you would have with the FCA. You could have that, but you could also create a set of voluntary standards that empower the organisations that are delivering the solution and also give confidence to the people and communities availing themselves of what is on offer. That starts very much with the co-design and co-creation of what communities and people need. That is the starting point. It would be remiss of us to speak on behalf of consumers and say, "These are the things that they would really like to do". We need to ask them. Let us do that, because they are very willing to tell us when they are asked. Let us create the platforms and environments to bring them in, and then let us try to create actions that deliver the interventions that they want and need, because it goes back —. Sorry.

Miss Hargey: The other bit was just around the role of what the Assembly or local government can do. If you look at the collective financial power that we have, as regards services and procurement, how do we use that more effectively to benefit local people, places and businesses? Is there more that we could be doing on that area of work, rather than it just going into the normal big banking institutions? Is that alternative there?

Ms Chundur: Again, it is not something that we have looked into, but we are happy to be part of conversations that represent the consumer ask and the consumer interest.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): It is not always for you, as statutory agencies, to make policy recommendations but —.

Ms Chundur: No.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Happy enough, Deirdre? Nicola Brogan. Members, I am conscious that we have a few more evidence sessions today, so —.

Miss Brogan: I will be brief, Chair. Thank you for your briefing, Noyona and Sean. I represent the largely rural constituency of West Tyrone. Access to cash and bank closures affect many of my constituents, so it is good to get these updates. I appreciate that.

West Tyrone also has a number of regions on the border with the South of Ireland. There are many people there — I suppose, people right across the North — who require access to euros and to goods and services across the border. Have you had any conversations around access to euros, and even for sterling for people coming from the South to the North, and getting access to goods and services here? Have those issues been raised with you?

Ms Chundur: We have not had any conversations around consumers being unable to access foreign currency, whether it is euros or anything else, including the transient populations that live here and work across the border, and vice versa. However, we can certainly see whether we can try to get some information and report back to the Committee, if that would be helpful.

Miss Brogan: Yes, that would be helpful. Certainly, people who live in border regions say that getting access to cash affects their normal, day-to-day life, so it would be helpful to have that information.

Mr Breen: Sorry, Nicola, I will just come in here. I referenced earlier the community cash advisory panel, which we sit on. It published a recent opinion piece that recommended free, non-priority cash services for banking hubs. A note in that opinion piece stated that, although euros and foreign exchange transactions may not be applicable to the rest of the UK, it may be of benefit to Northern Ireland consumers because of the border regions.

Miss Brogan: That would make sense. Thank you for that. I just have one further question. Do you have any more information on how many people in the North now use online banks, such as Monzo and Revolut? Obviously, they are becoming more popular, so what role can banks such as Monzo and Revolut play in advancing or getting better services for people here?

Ms Chundur: The data that we have is from our lending, savings and debt survey, of which we have done three waves. In the 2019 survey, which we published in 2020, 1% of respondents said that they did most of their banking through an online bank, such as Revolut, Starling or Monzo. The reason that we put in the 2023 survey results is that that figure had moved up to 4% of respondents, so that shows you where society is going and the popularity of those banks. There are sections of our population who are very comfortable and happy to use an online-only product. That is great. We have not done any further investigation into their satisfaction with the service or whether they would like to see more, so we have not tested beyond use. It was just one question in the survey, asking whether they used online banks and whether they got their main banking needs met by them.

The challenger banks are regulated. They are all authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority. Those that are banks and that have their banking licence all fall within the FCA's regulatory perimeters, so there are checks and balances in place for their customers. That is really all that we have at this time. As Sean said earlier, it is an emerging space, and it is typically, perhaps, certain pockets of our population who gravitate towards that proposition at the moment.

Mr Breen: As Noyona mentioned, we carry out our lending, savings and debt research every two years, so, obviously, in the latest iteration, we have seen the increase in challenger banks being used. That is something that we can look at in depth in future editions. That is a constantly evolving and changing piece of research, based on consumer need.

Miss Brogan: I suppose that more research will be done into them as they become more popular. I get that. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): It would be helpful if we could be kept abreast of any new information that you get on them so that we can understand those trends. I imagine that the people who use those banks will not necessarily be a perfect mirror image of the people who are more reliant on cash and traditional banking services, but it will probably mirror it. It will probably be a younger, not necessarily more urban, cohort who use challenger banks.

Mr Frew: Thank you very much for your answers so far. I will ask about the consumer protection principles for accessibility and choice, but I will flip it over a bit. Is there anything that alarms you about consumer choice when paying for goods and services? What I mean by that is that there was a drive, a number of years ago, to move to card-only payments, but I am starting to see a trend of moving to cash-only payments. I worry about people having choice. Sometimes you can get caught out: you go into a premises to buy something, and they tell you that payment is by cash only and that you cannot use your card, so you have to try to find an ATM, which can be challenging in itself, especially in a place that you do not know. Alternatively, you might go into a shop and have cash but no card. It strikes me that, if someone does not have a bank account, they would not have a card, but payment might be by card only. Is that a trend that worries you? What is the trend, at present?

Ms Chundur: I do not believe that we have any specific information on what the trend is, but we always come back to the principle that consumers should have choice, and that would take away choice. That is certainly not something that we would be comfortable with or advocate. I do not know enough about it, but I do not understand why you would say that it is advantageous for a customer to be given only one option; they should be presented with both options. There may be other —

Mr Frew: Have no real concerns or complaints been put to the Consumer Council about that issue more widely?

Ms Chundur: No, not to us directly, and not that we are aware of. The information that we have comes through the financial lives survey, and we have included that information in our briefing paper. I do not have anything more than that at this point. If it would be helpful, we could look into whether anything else exists on that and report back. At the moment, however, I do not have that.

Mr Frew: Thank you.

Mr Breen: Just two days ago, Treasury launched a call for evidence or a call for input into the acceptance of cash. We will look at that process in a bit more depth and see whether we can respond to that call. I know that that is the reverse of what you asked, but that piece is coming, and it will be interesting to see whether a digital piece or a piece about card acceptance comes behind it.

Ms Chundur: There may be opportunities for the Committee to explore that and to respond to that call. That carries weight. We will certainly respond to it.

Mr Frew: It is one thing trying to gain access to your money, but it is another thing to use your money.

Ms Chundur: Absolutely.

Mr Frew: This is not just about me wanting to see more cash floating about; it is about the fact that it is sometimes cash only, which is a poor thing as well.

Ms Chundur: I do not know whether there are other reasons for that. We would not be privy to any of that; we do not have access to that information. There may be business reasons underpinning those decisions. That is not something that we are aware of, but I suspect that it probably is the case.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We will have an evidence session with the Federation of Small Businesses, so we will be able to ask about that.

Obviously, there are some people who like having the excuse of having neither cash nor card in order to avoid buying a round of drinks, but that is a separate point. [Laughter.]

Mr Frew: Speak for yourself.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Present company excepted.

No one else has indicated that they want to come in, so, on that flippant point, thank you very much for a useful preliminary evidence session, Sean and Noyona. We may come back to you for further oral evidence or, indeed, written evidence. There are a few pieces that may come up.

Ms Chundur: We will be very happy to do that.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We are in dragnet mode at this point, gathering evidence and information. Thank you very much.