Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I am happy to welcome Dr Susan Lagdon, who is a senior lecturer in psychology (mental health) at Ulster University, and Dr Julie-Ann Jordan, who is a senior researcher at Health and Social Care (HSC) Northern Ireland. Obviously, you can add any detail to that that you would like. At this stage, I will hand over to you to make an initial presentation on your area of expertise and research. We ask that your presentation lasts up to 10 minutes. I stress that it is up to 10 minutes; it is definitely not a target. Then we will move to questions and answers with members. For questioning, we allow up to five minutes for each member per enquiry, in the main, to help us get through our full agenda.

That is all from me, and I hand over to you for an initial presentation on your research.

Dr Susan Lagdon (Ulster University): Thank you. You may be glad to hear that we were aware of the contingencies around time so we have prepared a script for what we would like to say on the matter.

I thank the Committee for the invitation to speak with you. It is a welcome opportunity to share insights from our work and research in the past number of years, which has focused on gender-based violence and violence against women and girls in Northern Ireland more broadly. We have submitted a briefing document to the Committee that outlines some of the underpinning research that led to the healthy young adult relationships (HYAR) research project, which will be the core focus of our commentary. We will not go into the preamble work in great depth, but it is perhaps worth highlighting some of the key insights that help to set the scene.

First, we can all agree that violence against women and girls is a significant issue for our region. Women and girls are being exposed to a multitude of harms, and the reality remains that it is often at the hands of an intimate partner or a known individual rather than a stranger.

Our research thus far has demonstrated that many in Northern Ireland are not aware of terms such as "coercive control", which relates to the patterns of negative and harmful behaviour that can ensue in intimate relationships, with a purpose to dominate, intimidate or threaten a person into submission. The term "coercive control" captures the reality of abuse that many face. It is not a one-off incident and is not always physical in nature. It has been described as the "golden thread" of risk that often leads to the greatest impacts. That was particularly evident from our work on violence against women and girls in Northern Ireland, which was commissioned by the Executive Office's ending violence against women and girls (EVAWG) strategy team. We surveyed over 500 women and spoke with 34 more directly. We found that 98% of those who engaged with us had experienced some form of violence or abuse in their lifetime. For many, that started with psychological and emotional abuse that eradicated self-worth and self-esteem over time and left the door open for further forms of harm. The idea that early exposure to adversity can lead to further future risk is not a new concept and nor is the role of education as a protective factor, yet the request for safe and healthy relationships education was a major and repeatedly cited recommendation from all those sharing their experience of violence and abuse with us.

We know from our initial scoping work of the literature that some prevention programmes that address things such as partner violence are available in some school settings, although the delivery is reported as inconsistent and evidence of programme effectiveness is limited. We also know that, while parents, carers, peers and communities are acknowledged as important stakeholders in violence and abuse interventions, their inclusion in relationships and sexuality education (RSE) programmes can be somewhat piecemeal.

Through the healthy young adult relationships project — we use the term "HYAR" — we aim to shed some light on safe and healthy relationships education for Northern Ireland specifically through that work. We spoke with a diverse group of young people aged from 16 to 20 years, parents and carers of young people, as well as youth work professionals, about their thoughts on some of the aforementioned issues. Our findings indicate that, although young people reported some aspects of RSE as useful, it was also perceived as inconsistent and delivered too late, and it lacked engaging, relatable and practical content. RSE was not considered to be inclusive or reflective of the realities of relationships that young people currently face. Young people shared their attempts to use Google and TikTok to learn more about relationships and expectations about them, but, more often than not, that led to untrustworthy and potentially dangerous sources of information.

Fundamentally, young people believe that not receiving proper relationships education may lead to normalising and experiencing abuse in future. The young people whom we spoke to were insightful and clear on their educational needs. They reported that having a strong sense of self and knowing what "real" relationships look like — for them and for different people — are important in building the foundations of their future healthy relationships. It was also about being pragmatic: knowing where to go and whom you can approach for help, as well as the law around the topic, were flagged as important components of future RSE.

Young people pointed out that healthy relationships education should be fun, enthusiastic and everywhere. Those charged with delivery should be knowledgeable, confident and prepared to discuss healthy and unhealthy relationships with young people, as avoidance will only further lead towards to a behind-closed-doors mentality on violence and abuse.

Young people see the benefits of having RSE in school and in youth organisations and groups. For a number of reasons, not all young people will engage with the topic in formal educational settings. Some groups physically cannot do so. Some of the young people whom we spoke to were in such groups because they are homeschooled, for example, or they require significant periods of leave.

That gap can be bridged, perhaps with consideration of technology as an assistant to RSE delivery. In an age of technological growth and usage, it is perhaps not surprising that the young people whom we spoke to wanted online access to RSE components. Indeed, some young people shared their concerns about needing such content but lacking reputable online sources to access it. A supplementary, web-based app that sits alongside RSE programme delivery offers a potential solution, bolstering the accessibility and flexibility of safe and healthy relationships education.

I will move on to the professionals' considerations. There was strong advocacy of education and training to increase young people's awareness of unhealthy and abusive relationships, including discussions of such things as coercive control. However, professionals viewed relationships education as part of broader life skill development, with skills such as building confidence, facilitating self-discovery and improving conflict resolution to go along with it. Equally, professionals see the need to support parents' knowledge of relationships education as it relates to their young people and to equip parents with confidence to approach and navigate conversations with their children about the issues. Professionals were keen to improve their ability to identify instances of coercive control among young people, for example, and, through profession-specific training, to navigate disclosures.

I know that our colleague Dr Áine Aventin has spoken to the Committee about parents' insights and needs when it comes to engagement in RSE. I echo her sentiment: many of the parents and carers whom we spoke to want to get involved and are ready to learn and engage. The HYAR research findings have further solidified the evidence base for Northern Ireland not only on the education needs of young people regarding relationships but on the education and training needs of the adult allies who surround them. Our research also highlighted the important role of youth organisations as an informal source of education and a safe space in communities in which to deliver that.

On the basis of our engagement and learning throughout the HYAR research project, we have developed our HYAR intervention framework as a topic guide for delivering safe and healthy relationships education. That was included in the Committee's brief. While the HYAR model reflects research insights in theory, further design and implementation of appropriate resources are required, as is process evaluation to monitor successful implementation. The design and implementation of future relationships education programmes should consider the needs of the target audience and its capacity to engage in those discussions.

All HYAR participants agreed that safe and healthy relationships education should start earlier and should be available in informal and formal educational settings. A collaboration- and partner-based approach to relationships education is suggested for the future. That model of working offers shared responsibility and support amongst professionals and reduces the burden on one sector, organisation, school or professional to, effectively, deliver alone.

Last but not least is a point on our readiness to respond effectively. Knowledge and understanding of unhealthy relationships is a vital step towards preventing violence and abuse in relationships, but that does not negate the need for intervention and supportive response efforts. This is a wider public health issue that requires partnership working and collaboration across government and society.

I will leave it there and open for questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you very much for that presentation and for the written briefing that you submitted in advance of the meeting.

I will start with a question that picks up on one of the HYAR recommendations. You were clear in your written briefing that the only way that we will improve relationships education is:

With that in mind, what needs to be legislated into the curriculum in order to enhance the current minimum content? What are your recommendations for that?

Dr Lagdon: From a research and academic perspective, there is an absolute bare minimum that should be included on the exploration of the issues of healthy and unhealthy relationships and the practicalities around that. That probably does not deviate from what is probably the Committee's overall position that providing evidence-based resource and information is important for supporting our young people in having access to reputable sources.

It is important to pick up on the pattern and continuum of education and the fact that relationships education runs through primary education and secondary education and is picked up with us in further and higher education. There is an opportunity to create a mandate for consistency in that. We also recognise not just from our research but from research based in Australia and England that I have referenced in the brief that there is a minimum standard for the inclusion of particular topic areas and for consolidating those into an effective framework that reflects the continuum.

We have provided an example of the HYAR framework in our paper. You can see that it starts with the individual and moves towards unhealthy relationships and into peer communication, which sits alongside that. That not only picks up on the topics of the person and consent but moves to the ideas of being an active bystander and empowering our whole community to get involved in the response to the wider issue.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): The Committee is interested in looking at what is good about the Education (Curriculum Minimum Content) Order (Northern Ireland) 2007 and at what about it needs to be enhanced. I do not want to press you, in case you do not want to be more specific, but are there specific areas of our curriculum where, you think, there needs to be extra material?

Dr Lagdon: I suggest that the areas of gender equality and equality more broadly are in need of enhancement. We have spoken with young people about a multitude of issues, including female-specific issues, wider societal issues and wider diversity issues. One thing that became abundantly clear, however, is that we have almost taken a step backwards on issues of gender equality, so that is an important component to consider when looking at integration in the curriculum.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I have one more question. There is a strong thread running through your recommendations that it is crucial to advocate parental engagement. You use the phrase "adult allies" or "parental allies" in your paper.

Dr Lagdon: Adult allies, yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is a really helpful way to look at it. Do you have any suggestions for how parental engagement can be more effective? You mentioned Dr Aventin's work in that space and the fact that, while parents have some appetite to get involved, there has been a challenge to getting it over the line and having formal involvement through engaging with homework, through workshops or whatever it might be.

Dr Lagdon: Absolutely. I will refer to the consideration of technology. I know that Dr Aventin already spoke about some of the challenges to parents engaging, one of which is time. As a parent, I know how difficult it can be to get involved with wider activities. Many parents will be aware of the app Seesaw, which can be used to raise parents' awareness of topic areas that their children are covering. I get weekly updates about what my daughter and the children will be discussing that week and encouragement for parents to, for example, go to a website to do a piece of work with their young person. I do not see why we cannot adopt good practice that already exists, including that sort of technology-based engagement with parents.

The other thing to mention is that many parents to whom we spoke liked the idea of using community spaces in their local area to encourage their capacity to have conversations with their young person. At an event that I was at recently, we talked about the difficulty of having those conversations. There can be a bit of to and fro. There can be reluctance from the parent or other adult allies to have the conversations and reluctance from the young person to talk about relationships with their parent or an adult ally. Practical examples include community-based support. We encourage peer-to-peer support not just for our young people but for other adult allies. We can create spaces in which to have those conversations, and, if parents want to engage, as with the rest of education, the people around the young person will want to get involved.

To be clear about why we use the term "adult allies", not all homes are safe. I am sure that you are all aware of that. Not all families look the same. It is about considering a more inclusive language for the different forms of families and the caring responsibilities of aunts, uncles and friends who are involved in that element of education. My daughter's grandmother was helping with her homework yesterday evening; in our family unit, she is an important adult ally in having those conversations.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is great. Thank you for that. It was really helpful.

I will open the session to members' questions now.

Mr Sheehan: Thanks for your presentation.

During the inquiry, we have heard evidence that, while the curriculum should be scientific and fact-based, some schools will apply their moral framework to the curriculum. When it comes to gender equality and relationships, some Churches still have a patriarchal view of the world. Some would even go as far as to say that a wife should obey her husband. That, in itself, can set the scene for a coercive relationship. How would you deal with a situation like that?

Dr Lagdon: It comes back to the point about the importance of legislation, of having the conversations and of creating the capacity to question the issues that you raise. I will draw on my unit as an example. We are based in higher education institutions, and we often implement constructive alignments in our teaching. That means that we think about the intended learning outcomes for the individuals in front of us in our lecture theatres and design our teaching on the topic base in the hope of achieving the learning outcome. In the forum that we are considering, the intended learning outcome is that an individual is safe, is protected in relationships, has the capacity to draw boundaries and is able to have autonomy in their actions, including their actions towards and responses to others. That is the important factor here.

I would consider our position towards and hope for our young people, as well as the learning outcomes. That would guide our decision-making on how we mandate the conversation. It may be useful to draw your attention to the pack that I provided. It includes a piece of work and an interesting conversation from 2022 by an author called Wareham that discusses the problem of what she calls "faith-based carve-outs" in RSE. It includes interesting guidance on tackling that question. We have a lot to learn from others who have come up against the same question.

Ultimately, we have to think about the balance of rights for young people on these issues: not just the right to education and knowledge but the right to be safe as they move forward in their life.

Mr Sheehan: Thank you. That is useful. Will the fact that there is an opt-out in the legislation be problematic? Do you have a view on that?

Dr Lagdon: We are talking specifically about relationships education. The contention around the parental opt-out probably relates to other areas that we have not talked about as part of the HYAR research project. The work that we submitted to the Committee included broader conversations, particularly from the Australian context, about what it means for parents to be able to opt out of certain conversations. Ultimately, I refer back to the importance of the rights of the child and their right to engage with fact-based and evidence-based information that affects them as they move forward in their life. I think that I am right in saying that age 16 is the point at which opting out is no longer an option for parents and that responsibility is returned to the young person.

With all our research with HYAR, it became really clear that we underestimate the access to information that our young people have in the current day. That is an important factor to consider here as well. Parents may choose to opt out of important elements of young people's education, but it does not mean that they do not have access to misinformation or potentially dangerous information online. It really is about balancing those things with the role of education and the intended learning outcome for the individuals. We have to balance that right for that young person and ensure that, ultimately, we make that decision around their safety and capacity to thrive. In the Committee brief, we included pieces of research that have explored that issue extensively. I refer you to the work by Waling in 2021, which says:

That work is about an Australia-based model. There is a lot that we can learn from that research and the insights from the Australian context.

Mr Sheehan: Thank you.

Mrs Guy: Thank you so much for your contribution. It was really interesting. In conversations about this topic, we hear a lot about information on the internet and the concerns and dangers around that. You flag up — I almost said "fleg" there — the young people's desire to have reputable online content. You seem to want to address that. I think that you have an app that is launching on 14 November.

Dr Lagdon: We do, yes.

Mrs Guy: I want to know a bit more about that. What input did young people have in developing the app and what information will you host on it? We also hear a lot about the age-appropriateness of RSE materials. Are you considering that issue in relation to your content? Is it a tool for adults and kids to use and work collaboratively? That is the kind of thing I am getting at.

Dr Lagdon: Absolutely. That is a really great question. We developed the HYAR app design. We have not created a functional development piece just yet. We wanted to work with the young people, because it was raised by them many times throughout the research project. They wanted a web-based or supplementary app alongside their RSE delivery. We have created exactly that. It requires the user to input information early on to access the web-based content. That includes their age and who they are: are they a young person, an adult ally or a professional? The idea is that the design and function of the app will be intuitive when it comes to the answers provided. It will therefore start to combine information for the individual.

The young people were heavily involved. We had eight young co-researchers throughout the entirety of the HYAR research project who helped to guide our decision-making. They helpfully and quite literally drew it out from pencil and paper and worked right through the project to working with the Inclutech team on the design elements of the app.

We used our HYAR framework to decide on the content of the app. For example, if a young person went to the section about "Love of self", there is information to help them and there are different learning outcomes in different sections of that module. It also helped to decide the time that it would take to engage with the content. Everything that we chose to include takes less than 10 minutes, so it allows young people to engage with something that was fairly informative.

I will go back to a point that I made earlier about constructive alignment. The app's design was aligned with the topic areas. That was to reflect that clear thread throughout the pattern of learning for the young person, the adult ally and the youth work professionals, so that everything is in a contained space. We have examples of that. The Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) progression framework also holds a lot of staged information for those working in the education sector. We got feedback as part of the HYAR project about the difficulty of navigating that, particularly as an adult ally and a young person. It is perhaps more appropriate for formal education professionals.

We tried to create a condensed, bespoke landing area on the topic of safe and healthy relationships that made it much easier to access and navigate. The intuitiveness of the system is in the HYAR report, which will be available next week, and we will certainly forward that to the Committee. We have our functional requirements in the future, and that goes back to that capacity to engage, considering not just, for example, some of those design components for young people or adult allies but whether the young person is coming from an LGBTQ positionality and would like to learn more about those relationships, whether the young person would like to learn more about heterosexual relationships or whether they would like to learn about it all. All of those are decisions that the app interface allows the young person or adult ally to tune in with before they get into the content of what is available.

Julie-Ann, is there anything that I have perhaps missed around that web-based app element or the engagement of that from a professional perspective? Julie-Ann led on our professionals element.

Dr Julie-Ann Jordan (Health and Social Care): It is something that professionals want as well. They want their own resources and not just education for the young person. A lot of professionals felt a bit uncomfortable, partly because it is a sensitive topic and because they did not feel that they had the skills and training needed. This is not just about young people's education; in a way, it is much broader than that, and we cannot assume that the professionals whom we look to in those situations are comfortable. There was a view from them that they would like something a bit similar to the app that Susan has developed for young people with example situations to show what they should do in those situations. At the moment, a lot of people are not comfortable in the role and are almost hoping that somebody else will deal with it, but everybody is hoping that somebody else will deal with it and then nobody is dealing with the situation. Their needs are quite similar to the young person's needs and the parents' needs on education.

Mrs Guy: That is great, because I get this as a parent too. When you talk about internet safety, people say that you need to do this and need to do that, but nobody really tells you how to do it. In this situation, people say that they need a reputable source, and you are producing one, so that is great. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. It is was really interesting. Thanks for your time.

Mr Crawford: Thank you both for your presentation and briefings to the Committee today. I have a question around the recent violence towards women and girls. You gave the sobering statistic that almost 98% of female participants had experienced violence and abuse already in their lifetime. On the back of that, only one third of the participants felt that they could open up or talk about or report the violent incident. Could a suitable RSE programme in schools reduce those stats? How do we get schools to encourage the victims to speak up and report those issues, and how do we offer them the support that they need?

Dr Lagdon: You have rightly pointed out the sobering statistics and the reluctance to come forward. In the report commissioned by the EVAWG strategy team, we carried out interviews. To follow up on some of the statistics, we wanted to better understand and get to grips with what individuals were telling us around that reporting. Some of the major factors contributing towards lack of reporting were worries on a number of levels. The first was that what had happened to them was not serious enough to be worth reporting. Others worried about not being believed or that there would be some sort of social consequence of reporting the behaviour. For us, that comes back to the knowledge and understanding gap.

Earlier, I raised issues about the importance of the inclusion of gender equality and the importance of including information around sense of self. As human beings, we often sit with a lot of self-doubt about what has happened, asking, "Was that as serious as I thought it was, and how do I begin to unpick what is going on?." Coming from an empowerment model with education is really helpful here. We need to begin with securing the person's sense of self-confidence and self-efficacy, understanding better their boundaries and the intricacies of consent, for example.

It is not just that you give consent and someone takes it; a much more complex process is involved. Then we empower our young people at a very early stage to know when the line has been crossed and help them have that conversation.

If everyone had access to the same information in our education system, that would bolster the capacity for us all to understand when something is going wrong and the responsibility that lies behind that. It would mean that no one could say, "I didn't know", "I didn't think that that would've been harmful" or, "I didn't think that this would lead to that". We are clear: there is a real justice implication when a reasonable person ought to have known that such behaviour would cause some sense of harm.

Our education system has an incredibly empowering role to play for our young people, but that has to be done incrementally. When we come into the world as little children, we rely heavily on the individuals around us, probably up until the age of five, to give us the information that we need to move forward. After that — I see it with my daughter — children start to look at their peers and others around them to learn more about the world, and that certainly has an influence. If, however, we start at home — this has come directly from the participants — and have those conversations early, we build really strong foundations for everything else that is to come. That includes the incremental process in education to create well-rounded, holistic and healthy relationship education for our young people.

Dr Jordan: The question of whether an app will help is important. Susan built the app in an evidence-informed way by bringing in young people and speaking to the people to whom the app would apply. Part of the overall research programme is about evaluating whether the app works. An intervention may not be got exactly right the first time, because that is just the way of the world. Our plan is to evaluate whether the app works, and, if it does not, we will try to make it better. Nothing that is out there at the moment is being evaluated. We really hope to change that, so that, if resources are developed, that question is asked and we check whether it works. If it does not, we will go back to the drawing board.

Mr Crawford: Susan, I have one more quick question on the back of Michelle's. Apologies if I missed it being answered. Will the app be free for students to download?

Dr Lagdon: We have developed an app design. If we had more time, we would be able to share a little about that today, but I can certainly follow up with the Committee. The app is not currently functional. We brought it to our research oversight group. It was involved in the oversight of the entire HYAR project, which is the next development phase. That phase is about making the app functional and, more importantly, deciding where its home should be. Who will take hold of the app, for example? Ultimately, Julie-Ann and I are academics and researchers; we are not entrepreneurs when it comes to technology. It was nice to delve into that world for a little bit and to work with the experts, but we would certainly defer to our experts — Inclutech in that case — to consider where the app should sit. It should be free and accessible to everyone in Northern Ireland, if we reach that stage. Everyone could access and use it.

The term "constructive alignment" will now be seared into everyone's mind. It is about creating synergy between the information that is being provided in formal and informal education settings and the structures and information in the app. It is therefore about creating synergy through what is provided and about making sure that there is no confusion about the clear messages and components of the information that is being given to young people, adult allies and professionals on those issues.

Mr Crawford: That is great. Thank you both so much.

Mr Martin: Thank you very much, Susan and Julie-Ann. It has been really interesting to read and hear about your work. Your piece on coercive control, given the context of where we are, is incredibly important.

I will take you back to some of your written evidence on young people and relationship education, by which I was very heartened. I certainly agree with the second sentence of the second bullet point:

That is core to what we are trying to look at in that area. It is really important that, as the Committee takes forward its inquiry, we ensure that our young people receive proper relationship education. The Committee may take different views on what that entails, but that point is probably at the core of it all.

I want to ask you about the basis of the research. The first sentence of the first bullet point states:

That is 180 young people. Did they put themselves forward for selection, or did you engage organisations? Where did those young people come from?

Dr Lagdon: That is a great question.

Mr Martin: Thank you.

Dr Lagdon: There were 30 young people involved in the focus groups. There were four, five or six on each group. The HYAR research project has a multitude of what we call "research oversight groups" or "HYAR partners" that were involved. Those included youth organisations, including Cara-Friend, HERe NI, Barnardo's and the Lagmore Youth Project. We used their networks to cascade information about getting involved.

One of our briefs to our network — our gatekeepers — was that we wanted to speak to young people who ordinarily do not have the opportunity to engage with researchers on the topic. We know that some young people are great at coming forward and are brilliant at using their voice, but others are a bit more reserved and may not have had the same opportunity. We therefore held a focus group with just young women and a focus group with just young men. We spoke to an LGBTQ group, as well as to two faith-based organisations and a group of young asylum seekers. There was an interpreter present for that group. We really wanted that diverse voice to be involved. We understand the complexities around delivery.

Our job as researchers was to find a common voice in what the young people had to say. All the issues that those young people mentioned were mentioned collectively. It did not matter whether it was a young man or a young woman or whether the young person was in a faith-based organisation or an LGBTQ organisation: they all had really strong views about the importance of relationship education. There was strong acknowledgement of the fact that, one day, young people will become young adults who go out into the world and become managers, leaders, teachers and others who then deliver those messages to others and who become an intimate partner of another person. How they treat that individual will reflect their learning. That is a huge responsibility for us, but it is certainly something that we can get right.

Mr Martin: That is great. Thank you very much for that answer, Susan.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): There are no other indications to ask questions. I have nothing to add, other than to thank you again for the material that you sent us in advance, for your presentation and for your answers to our questions today. We will take all of that away and feed it into the final Committee report. It was a timely presentation, and there is lots for the Committee to reflect on. We will welcome any further correspondence on the HYAR project, how it evolves and what its next phase might look like, such as app development or any further strands to the project. There are certainly a lot of issues there that will continue to be of interest to the Committee. Thank you.

Dr Lagdon: I thank the Committee for its time today. We really appreciate it.