Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I welcome Ms Sian Kerr, the Department for Infrastructure's director of transport planning and policy; Mr David Strain, head of the transport decarbonisation unit; and Mrs Claire McAleavey and Mrs Ceira McGurnaghan from the transport decarbonisation unit.

Are members agreed that the evidence session be recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): The Committee has received substantial written evidence on this topic, and you were here in relation to the vehicle emissions trading schemes (VETS) as well. I therefore invite you to make a brief opening statement of up to five minutes, after which members will be keen to ask questions.

Ms Sian Kerr (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you, Chair. I thought that it would be helpful to set today's update on the task force in the wider context of transport decarbonisation. We must not underestimate the challenge that net zero represents, especially in relation to transport. Most of us rely on a form of motorised transport every day, whether that is a car, a bus or a train, to go about our daily lives. It is that reliance that has led to the transport sector here being the second-largest contributor to emissions after agriculture, with 64% of our transport emissions relating to the use of cars.

Advice from the Climate Change Committee (CCC) and the modelling that has been undertaken by the Department have shown that a focus on removing car emissions through the transition to zero-emission vehicles will have the most significant impact on reducing carbon emissions from the transport sector. Members will already be aware of the pivotal role that the electric vehicle (EV) infrastructure task force has played in creating the commercial platforms that have led to significant growth in the provision of EV charging, be that on-street, at shopping centres, at schools, at sports clubs or at workplaces across Northern Ireland.

The EV market is now in a healthier position than ever before, with a marked acceleration in EV uptake and significant, continued growth in the provision of commercially led EV infrastructure. The acceleration in EV uptake has seen the total number of EVs on local roads doubling to over 30,000 since December 2022. Encouragingly, that growth in numbers can be seen across Northern Ireland. The EV infrastructure picture also remains buoyant, with over 20 commercial providers now operating here and the most recent quarterly growth being ahead of that of Great Britain. Public charge point numbers have grown by 65% since April 2023, which compares favourably with 61% growth across Great Britain. The growth in rapid charge points, which offer more convenient, faster charging opportunities, sits at over 300% in the same period, which is significantly above that in England, Scotland and Wales. Consumer confidence has also greatly improved, as evidenced by the Electric Vehicle Association Northern Ireland's (EVANI) recent survey, which shows the enhanced faith that consumers have in EV range and accessible EV infrastructure.

Against that backdrop, the introduction of the vehicle emissions trading schemes here in January 2025 will further consolidate the progress made to date and will provide the confidence needed for industry and consumers to further accelerate the transition to zero-emission cars and vans. Whilst we need to maintain the momentum in that space, including progressing the provision of cross-pavement charging solutions for EV owners who do not have access to off-street parking, we need to consider how a renewed focus on transitioning other vehicles, such as light goods vehicles, heavy goods vehicles, buses and coaches, to zero-emission fuels can be accommodated. Doing so will complement the needs of the evolving transportation markets and tie in with the remaining actions of the task force, which will concentrate on the needs of the strategic road network and the services that support it.

We have also made significant progress on finding a solution for cross-pavement charging for those who do not have access to home charging. We will be happy to update you on that work today.

A new approach to the communication of information on EV issues is being considered in conjunction with our counterparts across the UK, following the introduction of the zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate in Northern Ireland. That will seek to provide potential EV owners with more accessible information on owning and charging electric vehicles and the important role that they will play in decarbonising the transport sector.

At the inception of the EV infrastructure task force, it was agreed that it should be fluid and adaptable to the changing environment of EV infrastructure needs in Northern Ireland. As we look towards future actions that will be necessary to support the decarbonisation of the transport sector here, specifically actions relating to freight, bus and coach, there is an opportunity for the task force to evolve so that it continues to add value in this space.

I hope that that short update was helpful. We are happy to answer any questions.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you very much. You get a gold star for finishing on time. Thank you for that.

My first question is on the VETS, which we in the Committee are all well aware of. You said that more accessible information will be there for consumers. How will the task force ensure that that is the case from now on? We had the National Franchised Dealers Association (NFDA) at the Committee, and we know that there are still concerns on the ground among, I think, some car dealerships. What is the task force doing to speed up and ramp up getting the information to consumers?

Mr David Strain (Department for Infrastructure): Chair, Northern Ireland will be included in the ZEV mandate from 1 January 2025. It was important that the four jurisdictions — now that Northern Ireland is to be included — looked at how the mandate would be taken forward. From a wider DfT perspective, it was also important that we started to improve the messaging. If more electric vehicles were going to come on to the market, we wanted people to be more informed about their individual opportunities, whether that was fitting in with workplace need or individuals making the decision to buy a new vehicle. We see a lot of press coverage of electric vehicles: some positive; some not so positive. Given that we were moving towards setting targets for vehicles coming into the market, the time had come for people to have that understanding, so that, by the time that they decided to change their vehicle and move to electric, they had the information to make them confident that that would suit their needs.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. Will the Department do any sort of marketing campaign or anything for that? I am still not sure that it is hitting the road — pardon the pun.

Ms Kerr: We know that we could do more on our wider comms around transport decarbonisation. We know the perceived barriers to owning an EV, and some of that is about a lack of information: for example, how do I charge my car, where do I charge it, and how long does it take? We are working internally on what that might look like, but we are also working with DfT colleagues and colleagues in Wales and Scotland to look at combining those messages so that we are not further confusing things by all having slightly different messaging. We are very much in that development phase. A lot of information is available already, but it is located in different places, so we are very interested in pursuing trying to bring that together under a wider banner. It has to add value, it has to be right, and we do not want to duplicate and create more confusion.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Are there timescales for that, and does it include incentivisation? I am conscious that the incentivisation of consumers was raised last week in Westminster. Are any conversations going on about that?

Ms Kerr: The communications piece is ongoing. There is no specific timescale, but it now has more focus, and we will probably have a meeting soon with colleagues across the UK about what we need to do. Now that we have the ZEV mandate piece done, the team is looking at the next step, which is the communications piece.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): What about incentivisation?

Ms Kerr: We are not looking at incentivisation. You will be well aware of the Department's funding position. However, we have tried to make sure that there is awareness of grants that are available from others, such as the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV) and the Shared Island Fund. We have been trying to maximise awareness of other grants that are available.

Mr Strain: It is very important to us, Chair, that there are opportunities for grants to be made available. If we can make sure that our key stakeholders, through the EV infrastructure task force and our general stakeholder engagement, understand what is available to them and how they can avail themselves of those grants, that will help to move those things on.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Following on from that, we are hearing a bit more about financial transactions capital (FTC). What scope would there be to utilise some of that as a funding incentive to the private operator to invest more widely across Northern Ireland?

Ms Kerr: I am not sure off the top of my head, but we can find out and come back to you on the FTC issue.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): That would be welcome, and perhaps you could also keep the Committee informed about the communication messaging and whether there are any further discussions around any incentivisation models that may come down the track. I am obviously looking to Westminster for where that conversation gets to, or lack of conversation. It would be interesting to see where that goes.

Ms Kerr: It is worth adding that, generally, most people do not buy new cars. A lot of the affordability of an EV will come through the second-hand market. We see that growing. When that second-hand market is strengthened, it will probably become more practical for more people to look to buy an EV. It is not always just about buying a new vehicle.

Mr Strain: Chair, there are a number of incentives. Everyone is probably well aware that, in the private car market, the grants ramped down as vehicles were being sold, but there are still vehicle grants available for accessible vehicles. There are grants for taxis, motorcycles, small trucks and larger trucks. In that harder to electrify sector, we still have grants available on a UK-wide basis, and there are still some charge point grants available for landlords or for putting charge points into car parks. There are still incentives sitting underneath that are helping to drive the harder to electrify sectors.

Mrs Ceira McGurnaghan (Department for Infrastructure): May I come in there, David? We now have 1,000 sockets in Northern Ireland as part of the workplace charging scheme, with over £380,000 in grants having been provided. The charge point and infrastructure grant for business staff and fleet car parks includes a further 109 charge points. The uptake in Northern Ireland has been positive in that respect.

Mrs Claire McAleavey (Department for Infrastructure): In addition, another 48 charging locations will possibly come on to the market in the next year through the Shared Island Fund, with up to four points at each location.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you for that. I will touch on grid capacity before I bring in other members. I looked at what the Utility Regulator had to say on grid capacity. The Utility Regulator says that it is allowing for an estimated 300,000 electric vehicles being on the grid by 2030. In your view, how many EVs are likely to be on the grid by 2030?

Mr Strain: I do not think that we can speculate on what that number will be. We have a new UK Government, and we will have to look at how the ZEV mandate operates and at whether and how those arrangements will work to bring vehicles in. We cannot speculate.

From our perspective, the important thing is that we have been working with DFE and the Utility Regulator on the socialisation of connection costs. It is important to set out that connection charging has been a big issue for charge point operators (CPOs) coming into the market. If the work that the Utility Regulator is doing with DFE helps to reduce the burden on CPOs, thereby allowing those connections to be made — a consultation process on that will take place in the new year — it will help to create grid capacity and availability, particularly in rural areas and other areas to which it is difficult to bring the supply. That was one of the original actions of the task force, and we have been able to make progress on that over the past two years.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Do you have any concerns about the grid capacity at the moment? Rural areas are key.

Mr Strain: The Utility Regulator, DFE and the System Operator for Northern Ireland (SONI) are looking at that. They are working in conjunction with us to look at what a strategic road network might look like and what we need to deliver it. It is not just about private cars; we are starting to look at how vehicles in the freight and logistics sector will move. Given that we have no rail freight, meaning that everything moves by road, we will have to look at that broader side of things. Sian, in her opening comments, made the point that we want to move beyond looking at just private cars to ask how our broader supply chain will work from a transport perspective in the future. Those connections will be critical to that.

Mr Stewart: Thanks very much for the presentation: there were some very positive stats in that. As the Chair alluded to and Sian said, there is still scepticism and tentativeness among the public. I certainly see that in my constituency office inbox in emails from people who are considering buying an electric vehicle or who have already bought one but are still a little bit wary or uncertain about how far they can travel. It is all well and good talking about the percentage increase, but, given the stats that you have given for regional balance, is that percentage increase consistent across the country? Where do we need to be with charging points to meet the demand year-on-year?

Ms Kerr: I do not have those stats to hand, but I know that the spread is pretty good across all areas.

Most people charge at home. The link to available public charge points is important, but that is more the case when travelling longer distances or for visitors and people who do not have access to home charging. We see a positive story. We do not see a concentration whereby everybody is buying in Belfast. It is pretty widespread.

Mr Stewart: We should be benefiting from the small size of our country in respect of where charge points for electric vehicles should be.

Ms Kerr: Yes. There are quite a few ways in which we are benefiting. We came later to the game with the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, so we have the benefit of seeing how others have looked to do these things. We have seen what has worked and what has not, and we have been able to utilise that. From being behind on charge points, growth and all that, we have come to a point where we have the momentum and are moving faster towards more EVs and more charge points. It is going in the right direction — quickly. That is very positive.

Mrs McGurnaghan: I will come in on the Shared Island Fund, as we are talking about different regions. Some 62% of the 48 sites funded from the Shared Island Fund are west of the Bann, which is positive. EVANI recently sent out a report detailing what the future looks like for charge points and what is in planning. There are 48 charge points in planning development; 129 are in approval, awaiting consultation; and 130 applications for charge points are with planning. That is a total of about 300 coming our way. We also have our on-street residential charge point scheme (ORCS), with about 127 chargers, and, with what I just said about the 48 from the Shared Island Fund, it averages out at about 500, which would see a doubling of our current network over the next — well, hopefully, we will be able to —.

Ms Kerr: It is very positive.

Mr Stewart: Yes, undoubtedly.

Mr Strain: John, the other thing about the rural aspect is that people who live in rural areas have most need of a car, but, because they live in rural areas, they generally have access to a driveway or curtilage and will be able to use home charging and avail themselves of lower rates for that. We are trying to build on the fact that, if you absolutely need a car, those opportunities are there. That certainly works for people who need their car in those types of areas.

Mr Stewart: Yes. On where the sites are, is it fair to assume that the low-hanging fruit, meaning the most cost-effective and beneficial places, has been picked? Will we need to be more creative about where they are located in order to keep up with the ramped-up demand that will come year after year as more people move towards electrification, or is there enough space out there?

Mr Strain: That is a very interesting question

from the point of view that, if you look at —. [Inaudible.]

Mr Boylan: You answered the question once. Yes?

Mr Strain: Cathal, if you look at the original

— I was here before — e-car programme, when we had no charge points and no sites and we had to go looking for opportunities to put the original network into the ground, you see that, once we moved into the commercialisation phase and the charge point operators started to come in, they were looking for partnerships with people who had locations at the points where they could get commercial benefit. That work has moved on to tie those sites up. From a competition perspective, big telecoms utility companies such as BT and Virgin are looking at how they can use their assets to come into the market. It continues to evolve. As you can see, shopping centres, schools and all sorts of other places have been utilised. Sports clubs in particular can benefit by generating revenue, because the charge point operator will pay them to have the charge points on their site. That is where people are spending their leisure time.

Mr Stewart: That was not an attempt to be disparaging about the projects —

Mr Strain: I know that it was not.

Mr Stewart: — so I hope that it did not come across that way. That is useful to know.

My final question is about cross-pavement charging, which you talked about. Have you done an assessment of how many cross-pavement charge points we might need, given that many people live in apartments and do not necessarily have access to home charge points, or are you still in that process?

Mr Strain: I will say something very quickly and then pass over to Claire, who has been doing that work.

When we were last at Committee, we said that we hoped to find a solution. If you look at the contact that there has been with the Department, you will see that demand at the minute is quite low. We recognise that the issue is not whether demand is low; it is whether we can provide a solution. We believe that we can provide a solution within our existing vires. We hope that we will be able to avail ourselves of engineered solutions, where people need them, and utilise cable protectors, which are used in all sorts of other environments, to assist people whose cables need to cross the pavement. I will pass to Claire, who will tell you about how we got to that point.

Mrs McAleavey: We have engaged with stakeholders: OZEV, local authorities and solution providers that operate across the water and disability organisations. From our engagement with disability organisations, we know that what suits one disability does not necessarily suit another disability. I do not know that we will get a consensus on the approach from the disability organisations or our engineering staff in DFI. There is no consensus across the UK on what approach works best. Some local authorities are adopting cable protectors, and some are adopting engineered solutions. We believe that, under the current legislation, we can adopt both through the consent process and the street works licence process. There are concerns about ownership, liability and the provision of liability insurance. There is also likely to be significant cost to the Department, and there are limited resources when it comes to staff allocation.

Cable protectors are widely used in construction. They are a low-cost alternative. They are temporary, because they can be put in and taken out, and the liability and responsibility lie with the user, who would have to be insured. Engineered solutions might involve excavating the footway. We have two residents who are willing to go through the street works licence process. Motability Operations will, hopefully, sponsor another two or three to go through the process. We are trying to establish the process for getting those solutions in the ground.

Mr Stewart: OK. That is really useful. Thanks.

Mr Strain: It is also interesting to look at the number of vehicles that come through the Motability Operations scheme. Take the engineered solution, for example: given some of the mobility issues that some people have, it is quite difficult for them to force a cable into one of those channels. Motability Operations has been looking at solutions for that, including tools that will help someone to bring the cable through the engineered solution. We have agreed to work with it to see whether we can look at that as well while we are trying to get the processes right. It is about getting the process right so that everybody knows exactly what they can ask for and when they can ask for it.

Mr Stewart: Thank you very much, everyone.

Mr Boylan: Most of the questions have been asked. I should have got in before John. [Laughter.]

I want to go back to an interesting point that was made. I heard a report on the radio this morning that 250,000 cars travel in and out of Belfast every day. That is a lot of vehicles. You are right: rural people rely on single-vehicle use. What work are we doing with councils to try to incentivise the use of electric vehicles? I am not talking just about open countryside. Everyone thinks that rural means open countryside, but it does not; it includes smaller settlements. Are you working with local authorities to try to drive the process forward by using their buildings, parks or anything like that? What stage is that conversation at, and what are we trying to do to provide incentives?

Ms Kerr: When it comes to providing charge points?

Mr Boylan: Yes.

Ms Kerr: The other issue that you mentioned is the traffic that comes into Belfast. It is important to separate two different issues. One is how we decarbonise transport, and the other is how we deal with congestion. An EV takes up exactly the same amount of road space as a petrol or diesel car.

Mr Boylan: Yes, 100%, but the whole thing is about decarbonisation. Unless we provide better public transport, people will still use cars. It is not about congestion. I am just using congestion as an example. If we are being serious, we must note the statistic of 250,000 vehicles. If they were all electric vehicles, you could argue about the congestion issue. That is the kind of thing that we need. As rural representatives, we try to encourage decarbonisation and the use of electric vehicles. People have no choice at the minute, unless we build railway stations for people who are west of the Bann.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Hear, hear. [Laughter.]

Mr Boylan: Yes, I brought up the issue of congestion, but my main point is about trying to incentivise people to move towards using electric vehicles. How do we work with local authorities and everybody else to try to do that and incentivise people to buy more electric vehicles?

Mr Strain: We advised the Committee that only two of the actions from the EV infrastructure action plan are yet to be implemented: the one that looks at park-and-ride availability and the one that looks at —. I do not know what I was going to say.

Ms Kerr: The strategic road network.

Mr Strain: The strategic road network. Within that piece of work, we want to ask, "What is the future going to look like in respect of how people continue, whether they use public transport or active travel to get to public transport? How does that all tie in together?". If they are charging at home but driving to a park-and-ride, which we want them to do, and then getting onto public transport, they are not necessarily going to need charging facilities at that park-and-ride site. However, others who are passing through that park-and-ride site on the strategic road network might. It is about seeing how all those things join up, along with the other strategic plans that we have for wider transport decarbonisation.

Mr Boylan: OK. We will get a wee bit technical now, and go on to a point that John asked you about. I am not saying that everything will be in urban settings, but it is going to be market-driven, and the big market will be in the major urban settings. It is easier to provide all that in an urban setting, so it is about spreading that out evenly across the board. That is the bigger conversation that we need to have. With regard to the task force, who is driving that bigger question? You have an action plan, but in light of what is going on at the minute, we need a bigger plan to drive the transition. It has to be market-driven, and maybe that will be done through urban areas.

Mr Strain: The Department chairs that task force, and Sian mentioned that it is fluid. We also have a council fleet working group and a Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) fleet working group, through which the Department is looking at all other vehicles. The CBI has an EV working group. There is so much expertise out there that we are looking at how we can enhance the task force by bringing in other players to start building other issues into something that was set up just to meet the actions and commitments in the energy strategy. That is about looking at the wider process, so we are hoping to start looking at how we can do that.

Mr Boylan: Fair enough. It is all about climate change and decarbonisation. If we have not met the target in a few years' time, it will cost twice as much. Now is the opportune time to start to drive those conversations.

Mr Dunne: Thanks, folks, for the presentation. I want to return to the cross-pavement charging issue. It is good to hear that, since you were last here, there has been progress on the two solutions: the engineering and the cable covers. That flags some practical concerns, particularly in the Northern Ireland context, and I am keen to hear whether you have had discussions with the Housing Executive, for example. There are so many areas across the country where people do not have the luxury of a driveway, for example, and live in areas where there is on-street parking only. The key to that, of course, is unnamed spaces, and we know how sensitive that issue can be. As you mentioned, we have the advantage of being behind the curve slightly, so you can cherry-pick good practice from other jurisdictions.

Mrs McAleavey: Kerbo Charge has some in the ground with the Housing Executive. With regard to its new builds and renovations, as per building regulations, the Housing Executive puts ducting in the ground for future EV charging points. It is good that we are behind the curve because other places have found that equipment that is put in the ground needs to be maintained. If charging equipment is not used and is not making money, who will pay to maintain it? We have not reached out to the Housing Executive just yet, but that is on our to-do list.

Mr Dunne: Yes. Much of the historic Housing Executive stock was built in the 1960s, 1970s and so on, when cars were not as prominent. So many households now have one, two or three cars. That is a real challenge.

Mr Strain: It is interesting, Stephen. When we talked before about the whole cross-pavement solution side of things, we talked about the fact that, with terraced properties, cars were never static outside one property. People maybe parked on one side of the road one day, and three doors up or two doors down the next day. Parking areas were built at the back of some Housing Executive properties. Again, you did not have dedicated parking, but that was Housing Executive-owned land. Once we get these processes in place, if people come to us and say, "I live in a Housing Executive property. I would like a cross-pavement solution. Here is the curtilage", we will go out and work with them and talk to the Housing Executive about how we can assist if doing so falls within those processes.

Mr Dunne: You mentioned the example of a terraced street. We all have experience of disabled parking bays and how sensitive an issue they can be. People can get them, but their name is not on them, so anybody with a blue badge can park outside their door. I see there being huge challenges, to be honest.

Mrs McAleavey: A tenant will not secure a place outside their own door, but EVs do not necessarily need to be charged daily; they can be charged once a week or once every 10 days and so on. Anybody who is interested in the cross-pavement solution would be fully aware —.

Mr Dunne: How often you need to charge also depends on how far you are travelling.

Mrs McAleavey: Yes.

Mr Strain: We are trying to find a balance. There will be all different types of users, including people who may only be doing 300 miles a week. I got my car MOT'd recently and was informed that I have only done 6,500 miles this year.

Mr Dunne: Hybrid working has somewhat changed things too.

Mr Boylan: There is a Sunday driver for you.

Mr Strain: There have been changes in the dynamics of how we travel. The solutions that we are hoping for will be a combination of the availability of home charging, even if there are issues with the availability of parking, and the availability of public charging, including workplace charging. People will be able to avail themselves of different solutions at different times, and that combination will hopefully provide them with the confidence that they will be able to drive where they want to drive.

Mrs McGurnaghan: You also have the ORCS, which is at the tender stage. There is a consortium on that scheme, which is led by Derry City and Strabane District Council and comprises nine of the 11 councils. The purpose of the ORCS is to support charging for residents that do not have off-street parking. The locations will be off-street or close to leisure centres etc.

Mr Dunne: There is plenty of work ahead on that one, I am sure.

Finally, on insurance, based on research, what is the best way that that works in the rest of the UK, for example?

Mrs McAleavey: Most car insurance and home insurance will cover the use of the cable. We are still researching and finding information on how to reduce the hazard risk. It is very difficult, and because it is new in the UK as well, there is no case law, and there does not appear to be —.

Mr Dunne: If somebody trips on the cable, maybe at the very end, who is liable?

Mrs McAleavey: That should be covered by the car insurance policy.

Mr Dunne: The car insurance policy rather than the home insurance policy?

Mrs McAleavey: The charger itself is covered by the home insurance policy, and the cable is covered by the car insurance policy.

Mr Dunne: Everybody will probably have to pay a lot more to cover these things.

Mrs McGurnaghan: We have looked, and a lot of the standard EV charging insurance policies have it. About a third of our insurance companies offer that insurance, but it would be up to the individual resident to look at their own insurance to ensure that it is covered. It is an area that we have looked at.

Mrs McAleavey: We also spoke with Weev recently, which is a commercial charge point operator. It sliced its evening charge after 8.00 pm by half and saw a huge increase in usage at that time. Weev will also want to get into that market and provide for those without driveways. It is an opportunity for that company to make money in communities.

Mr Strain: That is why the procedural aspect of this is so important. We indicated that we know what the solutions are: there was never any suggestion that you could not do those things. However, it is about getting it right on the liability issues; the different needs of footway users; the times at which the chargers are used; and the responsibility on people to look after the equipment that they are putting on the ground if they want to use such solutions. They must realise that, by physically putting in that equipment, they have to be insured to cover themselves. We will look at whether those solutions are suitable for particular areas.

Mr Dunne: OK, thanks.

Mr McMurray: Thank you for coming. A bit like Cathal, some of my questions have been answered. However, I will develop them a little bit. You mentioned that the low-hanging fruit has been picked, but we are still getting sites into communities, local councils, the voluntary sector and sports clubs. Is there any more that can be done to encourage that, because those places are important to rural areas and are a good way of expanding.

Do you want to answer that question first and then do the second question? Or do you want me to crack on with the second question?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Do the first question first.

Mr Boylan: Do the easy one first.

Ms Kerr: As Claire or Ceira said, we have the charge points that are on the ground, but there is a strong pipeline of other chargers coming through across Northern Ireland. They are either already in the planning process, or they have got planning permission and are in the process of being put on the ground. There is continued growth across Northern Ireland, and most people will charge their vehicles at home. That is the first point.

We are not seeing a problem with big pockets of development: it is not that all the development is in Belfast with none in rural areas. That is something that we keep an eye on, for sure. Do you want to add to that, David.

Mr Strain: The socialisation of connection costs will be a key part of the process. There will be operators looking at sites, particularly on the strategic road network, of which they would like to take commercial advantage. However, at the minute, it costs too much to put the equipment into the ground. They will be making plans but also hoping that Minister Murphy's decision to consider that issue will help them to move into those other areas. There is a positive approach to the future, particularly with regard to the logistics sector and freight, which have to be involved at some point if we are going to get to net zero by 2050.

Mr McMurray: You see some wonderful examples of charging points that have a renewable source of electricity. Is that something that is coming down the road here? We have seen council areas across the water taking those on, and it is a win-win situation: there are financial incentives, clean energy incentives and suchlike. Are you aware of any such ideas, prospects or projects or is there the opportunity for them?

Mr Strain: We have not really seen any of those types of developments here. As demand grows and we see commercial opportunities for operators to come into the market, we would like to see that type of installation. It is a bit like when we put in the hydrogen refuelling station in Belfast for the first hydrogen buses. That was about creating capability so that we had the infrastructure for those vehicles. As demand grows, we may see more of those types of installation.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Cathal, I am going to come back to you, but first I want to thank you for raising Fermanagh and rail; that was great. Thank you.

Mr Boylan: Absolutely, Chair. I have two quick points. Do all new buildings now have fitted points? That is not in statute, is it?

Mr Strain: No, it is not yet.

Mr Boylan: I mean, it is not a case of a big stick to beat people. It is incentivising people, so it is not the new builds yet, is it?

Mr Strain: No. DOF is looking at the efficiency and performance of buildings directive, which was —. [Inaudible.]

Mr Strain: A few years ago, we were looking at building regulations to help us say what was required to go into new buildings and how EV infrastructure would go into larger, renovated buildings. DOF continues to explore that, and we will probably get further guidance on how that will work over the next —.

Mr Boylan: The sooner we look at that, the better.

Mr Strain: OK. We are in touch with DOF. We know that they are looking at it.

Mr Boylan: One quick point — thanks, Chair for letting me in. EVANI has said that there are people who have had electric cars but who have moved away and moved back. Is there much evidence of that? Are you having conversations about that, or would you like to respond in relation to that?

Ms Kerr: I was looking at the EVANI survey last night. Zapmap did a survey as well. It was a very small number, like 3% — I do not know whether anyone has this — where people who had electric vehicles were keen to go back. The vast majority were very happy with their vehicles and would recommend them, so it is a small number, from the survey data.

Mr Boylan: OK. Thanks, Chair.

Mr Durkan: Thanks, folks, for coming in. It is good to hear some positive news, albeit bit by bit. There are improvements, but we still lag behind other jurisdictions as regards provision, and will continue to do so, despite your best efforts, without more buy-in. I suppose that it is not an unwillingness to buy into EVs by the general public as much as, in many instances, an inability to do so due to the cost of the vehicles. I commend you, David, in your role. You should get a gold star for your own carbon footprint being so small. [Laughter.]

As regards the Government leading by example, how are we doing there? There are some good examples in public transport; I think of the electrification of the bus fleet in my constituency. As regards publicly owned vehicles, be it vans or ministerial cars, how are we doing? Could and should the Executive be doing more in that regard?

Mr Strain: I mentioned earlier that we have an NICS fleet group and a council fleet group. One of the problems, Mark, is that a lot of the vehicles that we have in the public-sector fleets, such as ambulances, fire engines and gritters, are harder-to-electrify vehicles. There are ongoing trials in using hydrotreated vegetable oil (HVO) as a fuel and other alternative fuels that can replace some of those diesel and petrol alternatives. Claire has been leading the fleet group. We are starting to look at a framework that will show which vehicles are in what category and how we move towards those across councils and Departments. We have been trialling electric vans and those ones that we can actually get moving on at the minute. However, the other fleet issues are something that we need to tackle as the technology develops.

Ms Kerr: There is also significant work being done by some of our partner organisations, like, obviously, Translink and NI Water. We are also seeing significant work around the decarbonisation of the fleet vehicles — I do not want to get the terminology wrong — at the airports and the ports. They are very much leading the way on that as well, which has been helpful. We can learn from them as well.

Mrs McAleavey: The current position is that it is at the early stages, and we are asking Departments to rationalise their fleets. We are asking what fleets are in use and what fleets are nearing the end of life. There is no point replacing vehicles that have been purchased within the past three to five years. We are asking about the different trials that they are doing. It is a knowledge-share platform where they can share with each other. As Sian and David explained, there is a huge range of vehicles, from police vehicles to Ambulance Service vehicles, and the Executive Office only has one ministerial car. It is all in the conversation. When it comes time for procurement opportunities when they have to replace the vehicles, they are considering moving to EV or HVO. It depends on the types of vehicle.

Mr Durkan: Ceira, you gave a stat that I missed. It was about the percentage west of the Bann. Obviously, this is with my red-and-white Derry hat on. At the start of this year — in January, I think — I read in a report that Derry ranked as the third-worst city across the UK for charger provision and that it also did not fare too well on the number and percentage of broken or malfunctioning chargers. This is where confusion exists. I am an elected rep and should not be confused about it, but, if I am, the wider public are. It is because DFI is claiming, maybe with justification, wins when there is investment to be made, but is not so forthcoming when there are issues around maintenance or expansion that might need to be addressed. Have we seen an improvement, particularly in Derry, the second city?

Mrs McGurnaghan: Going back to that stat, Mark, it was that 62% of the 48 sites are west of the Bann. That is for the Shared Island Fund that is coming ahead. There is also the ORCS, and Derry City and Strabane leads on that.

Mr Durkan: I know that there will be something coming out on that.

Mrs McGurnaghan: Yes, that is spread across the nine council areas.

Mr Durkan: Of the Shared Island ones, I do not think that there are any in Derry city. It is something, and I know that other areas feel [Inaudible.]

I get the argument that it is not about people using the publicly owned ones every day, but, for a city of Derry's size, which is a growing city with so many tourists coming to it, I think that it is important for it to be better served.

Mr Strain: Mark, on your point about transparency about what is working and what is not working, up until a couple of years ago, there was an issue with the existing charge point network in that it was run, owned and operated by the Electricity Supply Board (ESB), and had been since the original e-car project was put into the ground. The Department took some steps to provide permitted development rights to allow it to upgrade those charge points. It has been working through a process to get those charge points upgraded. In the meantime, we have got a commercial market coming in where it is in the commercial operators' interests to make sure that the charge points are working all the time so that they are generating revenue, so we now have a different dynamic in respect of the charge points that are available and working. We also have the technology through Zapmap and through the technology that is in vehicles to allow people to see the charge point that they want to go to, whether somebody is charging at it and whether it is working. That information base and how people perceive it is changing because they physically have something in front of them that tells them where they can go to and what they can use. There is significant ability for them to charge at home now as well, so the dynamic of publicly available charging infrastructure has changed, even over the past couple of years.

Ms Kerr: On the EVANI survey, the change in the past two years has been significant. There are anecdotes from two years ago that just do not apply now. One of its statistics is that, in 2022, more than two thirds of people said that they had to wait very often or always for a charger. Last year, that fell to 25%, and this year it is down to 12%. In two years, that is a significant improvement, and it is still going the right way. We need to be mindful that it is changing considerably all the time and getting better.

Mr Durkan: It is a picture in which the landscape is able to change very quickly. Ten years ago, we were ahead of the curve, as I recall. At least that is —.

Mr Strain: Yes, we were.

Mr Durkan: And then we fell way behind.

Mr Strain: We had an all-island interoperable network whereby you could use the same card to charge in Portrush and in Cork. I remember saying that here before. The network at that time was put in to create capability for the electric vehicles that were coming on the scene. Now, 10 years on, we are seeing a completely different approach to it. Given that we are looking towards banning petrol and diesel cars from 2030 or 2035, depending on what the Government decide, and achieving net zero by 2050, everybody is moving to try to make sure that they get part of the commercial aspect of that market, and that has been really important. We as a Department, in partnership with other key stakeholders, can help enable that. There has been a push to try to make sure that we do everything that we can to allow them to maximise those opportunities and provide services for citizens who want the opportunity to charge at locations other than their home.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. I want to mop up a couple of points that came up during the discussion. I will go back to the street works application process. Those applications are looked at individually. Resourcing to get works rolled out as quickly as possible is always a problem. What consideration has been given to resourcing requirements in order to see that process quicker?

Mrs McAleavey: Our team, the transport decarbonisation unit, will manage the influx of applications. At the minute, we are not seeing huge enquiries; we are not even getting one a week. We will manage the influx of applications and the information gathering, and we will then provide stats that we will feed back to our senior management.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): What will be the threshold for the applications that come in to get the resources in place? It is important that we have resources in place for when the influx comes, because we do not want anything to be held back.

Mr Strain: That is part of this whole process. What we do not want is a situation where there is an influx of applications and our section office is not able and does not have the time to carry out site inspections. What we are trying to do is look at a phased approach. We have gone out and sought partners and said to people, "You've been in touch with us. We will help you through this process. We will talk to our engineers. We will see how our policy unit can help on the ground". We will try to manage that and look at the trends in respect of the number of vehicles that come in. As Claire says, the number is still quite low. We will have to look at how those processes, and the actual solutions, work to see how we can move it forward.

Ms Kerr: You will all be aware of the resource challenges across the Department, particularly for our Roads colleagues. We are trying to learn from others in everything that we do to avoid unintended consequences that make things worse. The ability to look at a process that is as streamlined as possible, whilst achieving the outcomes that we need, is a core part of the reason why we are trying to be as proactive as possible in working with actual people and actual scenarios to see what we can learn from them. We do not want to be in a situation where it becomes another thing that we are not resourced to deal with. At the same time, we all need to work together to find ways in which we can make the process as easy as possible. The benefit at the minute is that we are seeing these cases, and we are working proactively with them. As opposed to having a theoretical discussion around how it could work, we are going out and talking to people and working with partner organisations to see how we can do it. It will be a challenge, especially if we see a big increase, but we know that we have to find a way to address it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I have noted that there are 130 applications in the planning system. The Committee knows how the planning system is at this moment in time and has concerns about the length of time that it takes. Do you have concerns about the 130 applications that are in the planning system? It is all about a quick roll-out. We have the mandate there. It is about getting people online, as quickly as possible. Are there concerns about the length of time that it will take to get those 130 applications through planning?

Mr Strain: From a commercial perspective, the charge point operators, particularly ESB, with its retrofit programme, had been seeking the Department's assistance to talk to councils, because we are talking about local planning. We have tried to facilitate those conversations. Some of those planning applications may be put on hold because we are awaiting the outcome of the socialisation of connection costs. My branch is not aware of any particular issues, but if CPOs were talking to us about it being a barrier to them, we would be happy to talk to our colleagues in local councils about that aspect.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I have two more quick points and one more substantial question. Picking up on Stephen's point, the extra cost for car insurance is a massive concern for consumers. I have engaged with the Financial Conduct Authority on the task force that has been set up to look at car insurance. Is that something that you are doing in relation to EV charging points and the liability costs that may be incurred?

Ms Kerr: We are aware of the task force that has been set up by the Department for Transport. A transport inter-ministerial group recently briefed other Ministers on the task force. I believe that we have representation for Northern Ireland from DOF. At the minute, we are keeping in the loop on that; it is not something that we are feeding into particularly. It is a general issue for motor insurance, irrespective of whether the vehicle is an EV, petrol or diesel. That is where we are.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): It is that specific point in relation to the cabling and liability. It is important that we feed that through, regardless, and make sure that it is on people's radars. "Assume nothing in life" is my mantra. It is important that that feed-through is happening through government agencies, to use that term.

Ms Kerr: That is fair.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I am a bit concerned that there has not been engagement with the Housing Executive on it. The Housing Executive is a key component in relation to off-street charging points. It is a huge housing provider in Northern Ireland, and it is important that we are feeding through to those housing associations. Is there any engagement on that planned in the very near future? I know that you said that it is on your to-do list.

Ms Kerr: Yes, we are trying to reach out to them.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): My to-do list is probably just as long as yours. Is engagement going to happen, pretty quickly?

Ms Kerr: Your point is noted; we will. As is the case everywhere, we would love to have more staff working on this. The team has been working really hard to look at the cross-pavement solution, but, yes, we will reach out to the Housing Executive.

Mrs McAleavey: Regarding insurance for the cable cover, we asked the residents whom we are taking through the street works licence process to check with their insurance provider before we took them through, and it is already built into their current EV cover; as soon as you get cover for an EV, that is part of the package, or so it appears. We are going to get evidence as the process goes through to secure it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): This is my final question. The Utility Regulator has talked about the GB electric vehicle smart charging points regulations. What is covered by that legislation, and what consideration has been given to introducing it here?

Mr Strain: As far as the —.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): That is a big question to finish off with. Sorry.

Mr Strain: Thanks very much, Chair. I would need to go back and look at the legislation. The important thing to note is that we do not have smart meters here. That is a matter that DFE and the Utility Regulator will be looking at in future. Until we have smart metering, we will not be able to avail ourselves of some of the benefits that there could be from vehicle to grid and other issues. It may be that it is too early for us, but I am certainly happy to look at how those are being implemented and how that ties in with the smart metering programme across the water.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Obviously, we are falling behind, but it would be good to get some more information in that regard as things progress. No doubt you will be back with the Committee again anyway in relation to these matters.

I think that that is us on this.

Mr Boylan: Unless you are going to bring back the DeLorean, David. That would be a good car to bring back.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you very much for coming to the Committee. We really appreciate your time. Sorry for keeping you waiting for a moment. We appreciate your evidence.