Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I welcome to the Committee today officials from Northern Ireland Electricity (NIE): Derek Hynes, managing director; Edel Creery, customer and market services director; and Andrew Cupples, network development manager. You are all very welcome to the Committee for Infrastructure. We are looking forward to hearing your evidence. We have your written evidence, which is really useful, so, if you do not mind, please keep your briefing to five minutes. I am keen to come to members' questions so that we can further extrapolate that evidence. I will let you take the floor now.

Mr Derek Hynes (Northern Ireland Electricity): Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning, Committee members. We welcome the opportunity to speak with you today. We have been following the submissions over the past few months from DFI, the Electric Vehicle Association Northern Ireland (EVANI) and the National Franchised Dealers Association (NFDA).

I will set out where we are. We own the electricity infrastructure in Northern Ireland. We connect about 929,000 homes and businesses to that electricity network. We are regulated by the Utility Regulator (UR), and it recently approved our regulatory price control (RP) 7 plan, which sets out our work programmes and the revenues that we are allowed to generate between now and 2031. That totals about £2·3 billion of investment. In a previous session, you heard that it is forecast that 300,000 electric vehicles will be in Northern Ireland by 2030. The uptake to date has been slower than that. I think that that is accepted by everybody. In general, we have work programmes that are approved by the Utility Regulator so that we can build overall network capacity to cater for an increase in demand for electricity for electric vehicles and other things, such as industry or heat pumps, as we attempt to meet our climate change targets.

For clarity, I will explain that NIE Networks has no role in building, installing or operating public or domestic electric vehicle charging points. Hopefully, we will be able to help you to understand our role and our different approaches to different types of commercial or high-power on-street charging versus our role in facilitating the connection of domestic electric vehicle charging.

Two issues are often raised as barriers to the uptake of electric vehicles. The first is the cost of obtaining an electricity connection for a commercial charging station, which you will have heard about. The second is the length of time to obtain a quote, design and connection from NIE Networks. Hopefully, we will be able to explain how that works. For domestic premises, we have a fit and inform process, which basically means that the homeowner can install an electric vehicle charger of 7 kW in their home and just tell us afterwards. That means that there is no real barrier. In general, we carry out work on the network to make sure that there is sufficient capacity, safety and reliability in that local area.

The bigger issue tends to be for larger-scale commercial charging installations where an application for connection must be made to NIE. From there, we design the connecting network and any network upgrades to allow that commercial operator to connect to the electricity network. We provide a quote for the customer and do the design. Normally, we then build the connection and do any other upgrades that are required in the wider network. The cost of the network connection is calculated by NIE Networks in line with the connection charging policy set by DFE and the UR, which is subject to consultation and calls for evidence. Change to that policy appears to be imminent.

I will highlight two additional points about building standards and public safety. We believe that the building standards for all new-build homes should ensure that they have an electric vehicle charger installed or that the home is ready for the installation of an EV charger. The other point is really about public safety. There is a relative disparity here around the legal and technical standards that ensure that the installation of EV chargers in existing homes is done to an appropriate quality and safety standard. When we look at legislation in Great Britain in particular, we see that Northern Ireland is at a relative disadvantage compared with other locations. We believe that addressing those areas will support homeowners in new homes in their decision to purchase an electric vehicle and provide comfort to existing homeowners that the work required to install an EV charger in their home will be done safely.

We are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Super, that is perfect. Thank you very much. I will follow on from your point about the disparity in legal and technical standards. Have you had any direct correspondence with Departments in Northern Ireland about what needs to be done to sort that out?

Mr Hynes: We are pulling together a paper for the Department of Finance — we believe it to be the owner of building standards in Northern Ireland — to set out the difference between the standards expected in England, Scotland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland and what happens in Northern Ireland. Various legislative and technical standards are in place in those other jurisdictions. They are partially in place here, but not fully.

When we carry out work on our network to make sure that there is sufficient capacity and safety, we find that the installations that are happening on customer premises are not in line with what we see as best practice in other jurisdictions. Therefore, there is a risk of damage to the customer property and the NIE network's property. I guess that, if it is not done appropriately, there are also public safety concerns about the people who are carrying out the installation and a potential fire risk. Lots of work has been done in various jurisdictions to tighten all that up. We are at a good time in Northern Ireland to clarify all that before we hit the big ramping up of domestic charge point installations. The commitment that we have made to our board is that, by the end of January, we will have a position with the Department of Finance to try to explain that in as much detail as we can.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): We look forward to seeing some of that. Will that be publicly available?

Mr Hynes: We have no issue with sharing that with the Committee.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Super; that would be perfect. You forecast that, by 2031, 300,000 electric vehicles will be in use in Northern Ireland and that, primarily, they will be charged at domestic homes. How have you reached that figure?

Mr Hynes: We reached that figure in conjunction with DFE and the forecasting that was done to support the climate change legislation that went through. That is broadly accepted as the likely trajectory in Northern Ireland. Andrew and his team were probably more involved in that at the time.

Mr Andrew Cupples (Northern Ireland Electricity): A number of sources fed into that. The Steer report, which the Department for Infrastructure commissioned, was a key input. The Climate Change Committee's (CCC) recommendations and direction for Northern Ireland also fed into it. We looked at the likes of historical trends across the UK and Ireland and in Northern Ireland, and they all fed into that high-level number. We believe that that is how many need to be connected, ultimately, to meet the net zero legislation. We have that 300,000 at the macro level for Northern Ireland. We then run that through our models and take it to a more granular level of forecast to work out what it means for the different regions: how many vehicles does it translate to in Belfast, County Antrim and County Fermanagh, for instance? That then feeds into how we invest in the network to facilitate the uptake.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You have some forecasting on targets relating to the vehicle emissions trading scheme (VETS) legislation. That scheme sets a target that, in the UK, the percentage of electric vehicles sold by manufacturers will rise to 100% by 2035. What forecasting have you done beyond 2031 as a result of that scheme here in Northern Ireland?

Mr Cupples: Our forecasted 300,000 figure is our 2031 figure, but that is one point; our trajectory and our trends extend to 2050 in tandem with the net zero legislation. Our forecasts project to that time. The VETS standard and legislation will feed into that as well.

Mr Hynes: Ultimately, we expect that, in 2050, every car in Northern Ireland will be an EV. We plan our network according to three components of money. First, we have an overall allowance from the regulator to build overall network capacity. Secondly, we have what is called a low-carbon technology allowance. It allows us to go into local communities where there is a significant uptake and do specific local work. Thirdly, we have a connection policy, which means that the large commercial charge point operators seek connection and pay for it. Those are, literally, our pots of money. All our regulatory allowances, revenues and work programmes are projected by way of RP7, RP8 and RP9, which brings us to 2050.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Although the grid is not totally a consideration of this Committee, it feeds into and overlaps with the increase of electric vehicles that will be on the system.

What concerns do you have about that increase and your grid capacity, given that it may differ in different areas, particularly when you look at the commercial side of things where, as part of the scheme, lorries, trailers and trucks — all those types of vehicles — will need electrification? What impact will that have, and what concerns or opportunities do you see in the grid system?

Mr Hynes: We really believe that electric vehicle uptake is a means for us to absorb a lot of the wind that is generated in Northern Ireland. Right now, an awful lot of wind energy, particularly at night-time, is switched off because there is no demand for that electricity. Heat pumps and electric vehicle charging, if done right, will allow us, at an overall macro grid level, to absorb more renewables and get us closer to our 2030, 2040 and 2050 targets. In general, it is a really good thing.

At a transmission level, electric vehicle charging does not have a massive impact on the 275 kV and 110,000-volt lines, because it tends to be dotted all over the place. Even the large-scale connections are not necessarily big enough to cause issues for the network that the System Operator for Northern Ireland (SONI) designs and operates. When it comes to a charge point operator wanting 1·5 megawatts in Banbridge, it may be that there is a specific local capacity issue in Banbridge, but, under our licence, we are obliged to provide a connection. That obliges us to build the capacity and the local connection to that asset. That is where charge point operators feel the frustration of having to wait for us to acquire a site in order to build a substation, to get planning permission to build the lines to the substation and to get an easement in order to put the cable in the road to connect to the substation. All those different components have to happen. There are price and time aspects to that. There is no one-size-fits-all answer for everywhere on the network.

We have capacity maps available. We work very closely with Translink and others to try to understand and get, as best we can, a view of what is coming in the future. Here are a couple of stats. We had 165 large applications in the past two years for big main road/motorway-level charging stations. Fifty per cent of those did not go ahead because of cost, time or other issues. We totally accept that, in specific locations, the cumulative effect of those issues can be frustrating for the people who are trying to build charging points.

Ms Edel Creery (Northern Ireland Electricity): I will just add that the big frustration for us is not being able to meet customer expectation. Councils have net zero ambitions and plans, and this may all be wrapped up in that. We have looked very closely to see how we can speed up the processes, deliver on best practice and deliver better for our customers. As Derek says, it is quite complicated, and a lot of factors come into play with every single connection.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Before I move on to other members' questions, I want to pick up on the 50% of large applications that did not go ahead. Is there a rural versus urban split in that? I am aware that it is potentially more difficult in rural areas to try to get those connections, that there are specific issues in rural areas and that going to those areas incurs a cost. From a commercial point of view, it may not always be the best option, commercially speaking, for those operators, but rural areas should not be left behind. Is that the percentage for Northern Ireland? Where do most of those connections — that 50% — not happen?

Ms Creery: That is the percentage for Northern Ireland, but it is across the board. There are many reasons. It is not just the grid infrastructure that will drive the commercial decisions that are made by charge point operators. Lots of factors will make them decide not to go ahead. The fact of the matter is that the network will not have the same level of capacity in rural areas as it has in urban areas. To upgrade the grid in those areas will be more expensive, but a multitude of factors will drive the charge point operator's decision about whether to proceed with the project.

Mr Hynes: The operators tell us that vehicle throughput and the forecasted demand for charging are probably the first considerations. Other big considerations for them are access to the site and a location that they can afford, and then they look at the other components to connect it. There is a cascade of issues. Our network in Northern Ireland is predominantly rural; our society is predominantly rural. There are 930,000 homes and businesses that pay for the electricity network, and most of those people live outside our cities. The density of networks in the cities means that the opportunity to connect there is greater, but digging up the streets or doing an installation in Belfast or Newry is more expensive than in Omagh. We do not have a one-size-fits-all approach, and we tend to spend a lot of time working with specific people in their locations to come up with bespoke solutions for them, which is why the change in connection policy and how we charge for that will make a real difference not just rurally but across Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. I will move to the Deputy Chairperson, John Stewart.

Mr Stewart: Thank you for the evidence and for coming along today. When the EV task force came in, I said that, because increasing charging points was commercially driven, we would see the low-hanging fruit locations going first, and, over time, the more difficult, less aspirational places would be targeted. First, have you seen that? What creative solutions will you look at to overcome the fact that charging points will be needed in places that are not desirable? Secondly, the Chair touched on rural versus urban, but what about the geographical spread? From NIE's point of view, how does that look currently, and are we on the right trajectory?

Mr Cupples: First, we publish on our website a grid capacity map that gives a red/amber/green status for the capacity available in certain areas of the network. Naturally, developers and installers will look at the map and go for the low-hanging fruit first. At the moment, the map gives the current picture of the grid, but, as Derek mentioned, we have a £2 billion package to upgrade network capacity across the board. We have fixed projects within that, but we also have the flexibility to invest as, when and where it is required in the network. We intend to appoint people to say, "There may be limited capacity in that area at present, but there is a plan to upgrade the capacity in that area".

As well as conventional network reinforcement, which is where we build more substations, infrastructure and so on, we are investigating more innovative and flexible solutions. Generally, the peak demand on the electricity network tends to be around teatime. So, if, for example, a customer has a fleet of vehicles on the road during the day and has the ability to charge those vehicles at night, that will avoid the peak time. We are actively exploring that. Similarly, with domestic customers, we have a live project called the NI electric vehicle (NIEV) intelligent charging project, which looks at how we can shift peak demand from the teatime peak to the evening.

Mr Hynes: To be efficient, over time, we would love every house in Northern Ireland to have an electric vehicle charger. Every office, hotel, hospital and car park already has an electricity connection, so we are not building new things. We may have to upgrade or make what is there slightly bigger. If car parks were being upgraded to have electric vehicle charging or there were minimum standards for hotels to put that facility in place, we would not have to build new lines, take up extra space or have to go through planning permission. There is an efficient, plan-led way of doing it. Look at the increase in the battery capacity and range of vehicles and the global evidence that 80% of charging takes place at home or at work. That is an efficient way of doing it because the network is already there. Therefore, one barrier is certainly reduced, and the cost and timelines are reduced.

Mr Stewart: That is a really valid point. Undoubtedly, in 20 years' time, there will be an expectation that everyone charges at home. The reality is that 20% of properties in Northern Ireland do not have off-street parking or a driveway. In Belfast, for example, 60% do not. What creative solutions are you seeing from the commercial sector, and in what way can NIE play a role in, first, identifying that and, secondly, finding a solution to it, because that will be the entire ball game when it comes to getting people charging at their properties?

Mr Hynes: Lots of bits of technology are emerging, particularly in large cities around Europe where you can see charging arms coming out of houses, cables coming down and ducts, trays and covers going on to footpaths to give people that opportunity.

Mr Stewart: We are not yet seeing that here, though, so are we looking at best practice models to try to identify what is working well, what is not working so well and getting on track with that?

Mr Hynes: Yes. You can see in other jurisdictions where street lights and street furniture can be used to facilitate electric vehicle charging. We are open to allowing those connections — it is not even that we are open to it; our licence requires us to allow that to happen. Those issues tend to be more about personal and public liability and then getting access, through whatever local authority, to the streets. From our perspective, it will connect ultimately to our network, but it sits beyond our licence remit.

Ms Creery: It is also important to reflect on the fact that it is only about a year since the very first high-voltage EV connection was made in Northern Ireland, in Toome. That particular connection was a bit of a challenge for all of us. There were a lot of technical requirements that we had to understand and new safety policies and processes that we had to navigate around. It is really important for us to maintain the integrity of the network and public safety. There were lots of big questions and issues for us to get to, but, through cooperation and collaboration with that particular customer, we were able to make that connection. I think that that, Deputy Chair, is what we want to focus on: engaging closely with industry, customer groups and others to drive solutions and, together, come up with things that will make a real difference in Northern Ireland.

Mr Stewart: I totally agree. Edel, your point was really well made, as was the point about 50% being turned down. We need that collaborative approach to planning with our local councils. There is no point in having these creative solutions if we are not finding a way to make them happen. That needs a bit of flexibility in the planning system, for example, on how things will be dealt with. Hopefully, we will see that going forward. Thank you very much.

Mr Boylan: I am glad that you mentioned rural versus urban, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I never miss an opportunity.

Mr Boylan: It is always a healthy debate on a Wednesday morning.

I have a couple of points. This is a new fad for us. On where we are going with it, would you say that you are being proactive or reacting to the demand at present, or is it a wee bit of both?

Ms Creery: I would say that we are very proactive and have been for a number of years. We have been talking to the Government and others for at least half a decade on the connection charging issue and really trying to emphasise the importance of it. That has come from feedback from our stakeholders about what will make a difference to them. We are active members of the task force. I have to commend the really good work that has been done in that area. Having resource put into that group and the impetus to push it forward would be excellent. Other organisations, such as the Electric Vehicle Association Northern Ireland and the CBI working group, are playing into all these collaborations, as are our engineers. We also look outside Northern Ireland. We are in European groups where network operators come together. We are in the Energy Networks Association (ENA) where, again, we are trying to understand best practice and bring that back into Northern Ireland in what we are doing. I feel that we are proactive, but, as with everything, Cathal, we can always do more, and we are open to that.

Mr Boylan: Yes, 100%. I just want to tease this wee bit out. You said that there will be 300,000 electric vehicles by 2031. Have you gone as far as thinking about 2050 and a 25-year delivery model? That is important. I ask that in the context that you mentioned more powers for the Utility Regulator and the Consumer Council, which are supposed to protect the consumer and ensure value for money. In that context and the context of having a 25-year model, you need to be talking to the council. I like the idea of new housing developments having this connection. If we are serious about this, that is the way forward.

If we are serious about doing it, where are we on getting more engagement on that? All of us who have been councillors will have helped people to get planning permission. We leave it at that; we do not talk about water connections or NIE connections. At some point, that all has to be married up. If we are serious about delivering on all that, where are we with all those conversations in the round? What specific powers do you think that the Utility Regulator and the Consumer Council could have? I am only thinking about what their responsibilities are, to be honest.

Ms Creery: I will let Derek talk about what the Utility Regulator and the Consumer Council powers should be, and I will speak about engagement. We engage with the councils from chief executive level right down to the operational lines. We also sit on a number of committees. For example, some of our senior engineers sit on Belfast City Council committees to try to move the debate forward and influence how things are taken forward. Derek may want to talk about the Consumer Council.

Mr Hynes: Yes. If you look at the legislative mandate for, say, Ofgem in London or the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) in Dublin, you will see that both those regulatory authorities are mandated to regulate for climate change and to make sure that the plans that are put in place by the likes of NIE, UK Power Networks or whatever body it might be are aligned with the national climate change targets. For example, say that a council came to us and said that it planned to install 200 public charging points over the next five years. Rather than the current approach of having it send in an application when it wants those charging points to be installed and us doing the network design and all that stuff before going to the Utility Regulator to get the revenues, a change in the Utility Regulator's mandate would allow a company like NIE to go ahead and pre-build or to anticipate some of that necessary electricity investment, so that it is ready for that. We have been working with the Department for the Economy for a number of years on the drafting of such legislation to equalise the powers that the Utility Regulator in Northern Ireland has with those of Ofgem in London and CRU in Dublin. That is one way to potentially get ahead of the demand and reduce the timeline. The money is more or less the same; you either spend it retrospectively or ahead. That is a fundamental change in the vires of the Utility Regulator.

I will come back to your point about the forecast, but, absent that, if those vehicles do not come along and therefore we do not need to do all the work that is required on the network, we are not allowed to claim those revenues. We have to retrospectively report to the Utility Regulator how many items of work we did before that happens. It is not the case that the money will be spent if the vehicles are not there.

As we mentioned, one way or another, by 2050, car manufacturers will not be making petrol or diesel vehicles. It will all be electric vehicles anyway. It is not so much about whether it needs to be done. It is more about whether you do it quickly or slowly and whether you wait for it to happen or try to anticipate it and get ahead of it.

Mr Boylan: My final point is about the 25-year delivery model. If you are not talking to councils now about their projections and plans to build 10,000 units over the next 10 years, doing so has to be part and parcel of it. You mentioned delays in planning, but there are delays in planning across the board. Do you want to comment on that, and will you tell us a bit more about your 25-year delivery plan and how you see that going?

Mr Hynes: An awful lot of the work that we need to do on electric vehicle charging, the North/South interconnector or anything requires planning. We have some of the same concerns as everybody else in Northern Ireland who is trying to build infrastructure, housing or whatever. We believe that a sensible step in planning is to make sure that we fully resource the planning system and all the statutory consultees. We are not sitting here and asking for something to be torn up and a new model to be implemented. We believe that we work effectively enough with the local councils and planning authorities. We invest a lot of time and effort so that, as much as possible, planning issues are not on the critical path for our projects. There are lots of other things — procurement, consent, way leaves — but planning is part of the package.

The 25-year delivery model is an interesting one. We procure framework contracts on potentially up to a seven- or eight-year basis. When I go out to procure materials for network upgrade or contract capabilities to do the work, the first thing that they ask for is certainty on how much and when. If we can give them greater certainty for the longest time with the highest volume of work, that will reduce the price per unit of work and get the best value for the people of Northern Ireland.

Every six or seven years, we go have to go back to the Utility Regulator and account for our upcoming plan. It benchmarks that plan and the delivery model. It looks at the mix of NIE staff versus contract staff and how we do all our procurement against what it sees across all the other electricity companies in the UK and Ireland. We have just gone through that process; it concluded in December last year. The next six years, between 2025 and 2031, are part of a package of three price controls on which we will have to present our plans to the Utility Regulator. That is all the way to RP9, which is in 2045. In reality, we will need to have the work done by 2045 to support net zero by 2050. If we are still building in 2050 to support net zero by 2050, it will be too late. From our perspective, it is not quite a 25-year model; it is more a 18- or 19-year model. That is the gist of it.

Mr Cupples: Our forecasts go to 2050, as I mentioned, although we will continue to refine those. A critical part of that is our stakeholder engagement with councils, major energy users and those kinds of people.

The other point to note is that we will do a study on the assets that we replace today — we are replacing transformers and switch gear because they are age expired — to ensure that they are fit to accommodate net zero by 2050.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you, guys, for coming in. Derek, you mentioned that you are not responsible for putting in charging points, and I totally take that point. However, it has been brought to my attention a couple of times — apologies if this has been answered — that the issue then becomes getting access to the grid, which can sometimes take up to 18 months. What are the main challenges for you in delivering that? Also, what solutions are being explored to try to speed it up?

Mr Hynes: We do not doubt the fact that it has taken 18 months for certain charge points to access the grid, but they tend to be the outliers. They tend to be the ones where it has been really difficult to get agreement from the landowner to build network through a site. They tend to be the ones where we need to upgrade the network feeding the location, which may require planning permission or require us, as Andrew says, to procure new transformers or bring in civil contractors and electrical contractors to do the work. There is a whole coordination issue there.

In lots of cases where it took 18 months, a lot of time was taken up with negotiations on price. For example, we may give a high-level indication that we think that it will cost £100,000, but, when we go and carry out all the detailed design work, it turns into £150,000, and, then, because of the connection charging policy, we end up in an ongoing engagement with the connecting party before the contract can be signed, the site can be secured and the legalities can be put in place. There is no doubt that it sometimes takes 18 months, but it tends to be because of a basket of all those issues.

Ms Creery: It is important to put in a bit of context, especially for large commercial jobs. Often, they will use about 1,000 kilovolt-ampere (kVA) of capacity. For context, that is the amount used by a factory. Although they look small, they are really power hungry, so quite a bit of design work has to take place beforehand. A lot of it involves, as I said, cooperation with the customer to try to arrive at a design that will work for them and the area. We mentioned legalities. Typically, it will take nine months. Again, we are working with respective legal teams to try to speed that up a little. We have to try to find the landowner who owns the lease and secure that. It can be complicated. That having been said, as Derek mentioned, one of our senior engineers will triage every job as it comes in —

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Sorry, I do not know what happened there.

Ms Creery: — to give an indication to the customer of the likely price and timescale so that they can at least make a commercial decision at that point about whether they wish to proceed, and, if they do, we go ahead.

I talked about the fact that we have a lot more experience of them now, which is helping to speed things up. Our organisation is growing. For example, the major projects team that looks after this business area has tripled in size over the past few years. Our company, in general, has gone from employing 1,250 people to employing 1,600 people. That is all to support the energy transition, and EV connection is part of that, but we know that we have a long way to go. An ongoing part of our job is to look at what is happening in other jurisdictions to see how we can speed that up. We are happy to take it forward with the charge point operators.

Mr Hynes: You asked about what makes it quicker. The new connection charging policy gives people greater certainty about the cost. Having more upfront visibility of what the cost will be will take a lot of the pre-connection interaction out of it. If an operator is speculatively looking for five sites, they will pick the one that they want, they will know how much it is going to cost and they will have certainty. A lot of the charge point operators talk about the process in Dublin versus the one in Belfast. In Dublin, they know upfront what the price will be. It is set: it is a standard charge depending on the type of charger that they want and where they want it. Up here, it is much more of a voyage of discovery, because every item needs to be designed and priced before we can sign the contract with the operator. We believe that that makes it much quicker and that the transparency allows decisions to happen much faster.

Mr McReynolds: The Deputy Chair mentioned the difficulties for people who do not have a driveway, and a lot of them are based in Belfast. I declare an interest: I do not have a driveway and park on the street. Rapid charging points are important in this conversation. Rather than people parking their car and charging it for a couple of hours or whatever, the rapid charging points are an important element. Is there any indication of how many rapid charging points we have in Northern Ireland? Is there a difference in access to the grid between rapid charging points and normal ones?

Mr Cupples: We have around 700 publicly accessible charging points, around 200 of which are classified as rapid chargers. As Derek alluded to, there is probably a balance to be struck. If you charge your EV at your workplace or at a destination such as a hotel or a supermarket, it does not have to be very fast charging. There are specific use cases, such as at motorway services, where rapid charging points really have their place.

Mr McReynolds: Lastly, Derek mentioned utility licences, and it reminded me of a conversation that I had last year with someone who said — I do not know if this is true — that the legislation makes it easier in that you do not need to apply for planning permission for a phone box, for example, but that EV charging points are not mentioned in the legislation. Is that a challenge? I am not sure about this, but does any legislation need to be updated to assist with the introduction of more charging points for EVs?

Mr Baker: "I am not sure, but I will ask anyway".

Mr Hynes: I am not sure, but I take the point that, if EV charge points were considered to be exempt from planning, it would make the process much quicker. There is legislation in place in some jurisdictions that allows street furniture, for example, to proceed. I do not know if that is the case, but you can see how operators would want exempt status for electric vehicle charging infrastructure or other net zero infrastructure, such as wind farms. That needs to be looked at in the basket of the overall climate change legislation that is needed to support the overarching legislation for Northern Ireland.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I do not want to curtail the conversation, but can we keep questions and answers as succinct as possible? I know that you will be succinct, Stephen.

Mr Dunne: Thanks, folks: you have given us a lot of information. Derek, you mentioned costs. Bringing it right down to the consumer and domestic level, what is your assessment of the impact of having a charger at home on monthly domestic electric bills, given that cost is ultimately a major factor in consumer choice and preference?

Mr Hynes: We do not have responsibility for the bill, as such; that is the supplier.

Mr Dunne: I know that you do not, but you can appreciate —

Mr Hynes: People's consumption of electricity tends to go up significantly, but, because, at the minute, it is cheaper per kilometre to use electricity than it is to use petrol or diesel, particularly if you are charging at home at night, your overall household expenditure is cheaper with an electric vehicle. You will pay more for your electricity but significantly less in total, because you are not paying for petrol and diesel. That tends to be the case globally, because of the way in which electricity is priced relative to petrol and diesel.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that. You touched on the urban/rural divide a number of times. It is good that you are looking at innovative solutions around the world and learning lessons. To reiterate a point, there is often a lot more room around houses in rural areas. Certainly, in my constituency, close to here, for example, there are many terraced houses. You can see that there are huge challenges where there is a street with maybe 50 or 60 houses. That point was interesting. I do not think that we need to rehearse it.

My final point is on rapid charging. There is an ultra rapid charging hub at a Maxol garage in my constituency, quite close to here — it is a private operation. In a media article a few months ago, Maxol stated that it was reassessing how much it could keep going with those hubs, given the low sales and so on. What level of engagement have you had with such private operators? Obviously, they are key to meeting the targets, increasing usage and so on.

Ms Creery: We have worked directly with Maxol, and did so even before it entered the Northern Ireland market in this area. We worked hand in glove with Maxol on that flagship project. The delivery of that is as important to us as it is to Maxol. We cannot comment on whether it is a commercial success for Maxol.

Mr Dunne: Maxol described the overall picture as a "chicken and egg conundrum". Sales are down and low. You are obviously keen to see sales go up and targets be met.

Mr Hynes: It is fundamental for us. If people are not using electricity, our network is not being used, therefore the costs of the provision of that network goes up. It is absolutely in our interest to get people to use as much electricity that is renewably produced as possible. Investing in the network and people not using it is a disaster for the commercial operators, and it is ultimately a disaster for us.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that. Most of my other points have been covered. Thank you, folks.

Mr K Buchanan: The Chair has spoken, so I had better behave. [Laughter.]

You talked about 7 kW charging for the homeowner. Is that input or output?

Mr Hynes: Output, and it would be 6·9 kW to your car. There is a little bit of —

Mr K Buchanan: It is output from the charger to the car. Are you sure about that? Are you sure that it is not a 7 kW input? A standard plug-in is only 2·3 kW. If it is 7 kW, it is effectively the same as a homeowner showering.

Mr Hynes: Yes, you could have a power shower in the house that is up to 12 kW.

Mr K Buchanan: Or 8 kW.

Mr Hynes: The standard charger is 6·97 kW.

Mr K Buchanan: That is the actual usage of power to the charger.

Mr Hynes: To the vehicle. The losses through it are small.

Mr K Buchanan: On building standards, you talked about fit and inform. A person might put in a 7 kW charger. That, in my head, equates to a person showering for four or five hours at night. If they were building a new house, why would they put that down as a building standard? If I put in a new supply of 8 kW — say 2 kW for lighting, cooking and an outdoor heating pump — and put another 7 kW for EV charging, you are going to charge me more for my connection. Why would I do that? Why would I not come afterwards and say, "By the way, the wife has come home with an electric car. I'm going to fit and inform"? Do you know the argument I am making?

Mr Baker: Why does it have to be your wife coming home with the car?

Mr Boylan: It could be someone else coming home with the car; just record that properly.

Mr K Buchanan: You know my point. What is the benefit?

Mr Hynes: This is another one for a morning in Newmills for us. [Laughter.]

The biggest cost to a homeowner of installing a car charger retrospectively is chasing walls and drilling holes in the outside wall; it concerns the physical infrastructure of the house. Your electrical infrastructure is probably OK because — you are right — it already has to instantaneously cater for potentially 12 kW with a shower. A little switch will be installed that stops the shower and the electric vehicle. If I have the car plugged in, my wife cannot take a shower. That is a fact. In our house, we had to take a circuit from the fuse board in the utility room, chase a wall, drill into an outside wall and put a conduit outside the house. We spent more on the physical installation than anything else. If you have a new house that is built with an electric vehicle charger literally plonked on to the side and connected, all that work is done for the homeowner. The argument is that that increases the cost of the house build but that that is less than the incremental cost of doing the work at a later point with the redecoration, new floor and everything else.

Mr K Buchanan: What is the benefit for that new homeowner to write an additional 7 kW or 8 kW on to the connection card for you guys?

Mr Hynes: On our electrical standards for all new houses, traditionally, about 2·5 kW was what we expected to be used on average at a house. From last year onwards, for new homes, it is 5·5 kW. We have brought it up because of electric vehicles and heat pumps.

Mr K Buchanan: OK, so you are naturally putting it up. Are you assuming that, eventually, a house will have an electric charger?

Mr Hynes: Yes.

Mr K Buchanan: OK. My next question, if I may.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Very quickly.

Mr K Buchanan: If someone gets an electric car today and puts it on a charger tonight, what tariff will they be using? I know that you do not do the tariffs. How will you incentivise it so that you do not have people coming home at 5.00 pm and plugging in the car then but, instead, wait until 10 pm to plug it in before they go to bed?

Mr Hynes: At the minute, people are generally using an Economy 7 tariff.

Mr K Buchanan: So they are using that?

Mr Hynes: It is sensible. Your Economy 7 is probably half the price of your normal tariff. If you can plug your car in between 10.00 pm and 8.00 am, 12.00 midnight and 7.00 am or whatever, you will charge it for half the price that you would during the day. The long-term answer to all of that and to give people flexibility is smart metering, which allows more real-time price signals to be displayed to the homeowner and gives them a choice. If they want to do it during the day when it is more expensive, they can take that decision. The suppliers will be mandated, we expect, through the smart metering process, to offer bespoke EV tariffs. Whereas, at the minute, it is just the Economy 7-type tariffs.

Mr K Buchanan: How many of the fit and informs today would go on to the night-time tariff — the Economy 7 tariff? Do you know that?

Mr Hynes: We have no idea, but we would expect it to be as many as are humanly possible.

Mr K Buchanan: Purely because it is more cost-effective.

Mr Hynes: It is the sensible thing to do. It just depends because, if people have loads of electricity to use during the day, they might not do that, but most people will.

Mr K Buchanan: I have another question on socialisation, but I may not be able to ask it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. [Laughter.]

I have two other members on my list, and we are pushed for time.

I will just say that EVANI highlighted to us the cost for consumers. In its evidence, it said that the cost of domestic charges is 14p using Economy 7, as opposed to the charging network rates of 49p. I just give that differentiation

Mark, I am counting on you to come in with your question straight away. [Laughter.]

Mr Boylan: She has you on the clock, Mark.

Mr Durkan: Thanks, Chair. I am not sure that I will come straight to the question, but I will get there.

Thank you for the presentation. I am especially interested in what you said about the importance of a planned approach to EV infrastructure roll-out and ensuring fairness for all network users. Others have touched on the rural/urban divide, but it is not just an urban/rural divide. In my constituency here, up in Derry, there is a perception that there is an urban/urban divide around the infrastructure. The publicly accessible infrastructure that we have for EVs is proportionally nowhere near that of other cities — and one larger city, in particular. The lack of infrastructure in Derry has nothing to do with a lack of capacity at NIE's end; has it?

Mr Hynes: No. We just have not seen the same level of interest from public charge point operators to build the charging infrastructure up there. As Stephen Dunne said, it is a "chicken and egg conundrum." They would argue that, until there is enough volume of cars up there and an inherent local demand, there is no commercial incentive for them to try to build it. It is only at that point that we would get to challenge and see if the capacity is there, how much it will cost and the timeline. We try to forecast it, but we will not know until they see enough vehicles to make them want to go and install the charging points. I was at Magee campus a couple of weeks ago and queued for the one charger on-site, so we have all had personal experience of it.

Ms Creery: It is important to note that other jurisdictions — for example, Scotland — rather than taking a market-driven approach, are taking a Government-led approach. That is really helping to shape the direction of where charge points go in. There will be 30,000 more going in quite soon. To add to your point, Mark, that is something to consider.

Mr Durkan: It is something that I have considered. I just wanted to get clarity that there is no obstacle at your end.

My next point is on something that I have noticed from being in a border constituency. Over the past couple of years, we have seen four or five petrol stations open, which is remarkable, because, for a long time, there were very few petrol stations here, given where we are on the border and the fact that fuel was cheaper over the border. Now, we have seen an upsurge in applications and approvals for stations here. That got me thinking about the price differential in electricity on either side of the border. What sort of work are you doing on that with your counterparts in the South? Do you perceive there to be commercial opportunities for someone in the North, given that, at the moment, electricity is significantly cheaper than it is in the South? It was cheaper last year; I am not sure whether that is still the case. We may be dealing with demand from more than just Northern-registered vehicles, if you know what I mean.

Mr Hynes: I take the point on petrol and diesel. Both are much cheaper in Northern Ireland than in the Republic of Ireland at the minute. Look at what Norway did: it just taxed the living daylights out of petrol and diesel, which meant that it was constantly increasing the price of fossil fuels, and used renewable electricity to push down the price of electricity. The overall cost approach worked.

The differential between night-time charging in the Republic of Ireland and the Economy 7 tariff up here is very small. With smart metering in the Republic of Ireland, they have time of use: they have different segments of cost, depending on at which point of the day it is. We hear more complaints from people about the fact that they have to drive to Castlebellingham to charge, because there are not enough opportunities to charge in Northern Ireland.

The big issue on price is the fact that it could cost you €50,000 to connect your charge point — your 1 MVA, which Edel talked about — in the Republic of Ireland, whereas it could cost you £200,000 or £300,000 in Northern Ireland. That is the big price issue. What you find then is that the people who price it at the vehicle charger have to build that cost back into what they charge, so, at a rapid charger, you could pay 75p or 76p per kWh for electricity for your vehicle in Northern Ireland and 70 cents, which is 60p, in the Republic of Ireland. It is the opposite: public charging in the Republic of Ireland is cheaper, and petrol and diesel in Northern Ireland are cheaper.

Mr Durkan: It was just about how we will look at those fluctuations going forward.

Finally, I am interested in the point about Norway or other jurisdictions where they have taxed the life out of petrol and diesel to push people towards renewables. Obviously, as more people move to renewables or electric vehicles, Governments around the world will start to miss the tax revenue that is generated through petrol and diesel sales. Is it fair enough to assume that they will start taxing the life out of EVs?

Mr Boylan: It has all gone quiet over here.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Mark, they are looking at us as the politicians.

Mr Boylan: Any word over your way, Mark.

Mr Durkan: It is a reserved matter. [Laughter.]

Mr Baker: This is a small point on the back of what Peter said; it just came into my head. How do you factor into your planning the change in technology? We are talking about the here and now and are almost half-guessing what will be here in the next five, 10, 15 or 20 years. Technology is moving so quickly now that on-street parking may not even be an issue, because the battery life of those cars may be so much better. How do you factor that into your planning?

Mr Cupples: A key part of our regulatory price control — the RP7 process — is an innovation fund. We have a number of defined innovation projects in which we look at a range of issues related to the electricity network.

With electric vehicles, we see vehicle-to-grid (V2G) functionality on the horizon. That is where you can charge your battery off-peak but then use it to bring power back to your home, and that changes the dynamics and power flows on the grid. We have a dedicated innovation team, and it is about looking beyond the five or six-year price control to see what is coming down the line in 10 or 15 years and how vehicle technology is evolving. We will build that in and refine our models on the back of that information.

Mr Hynes: A solar panel on your roof and a battery in your garden will significantly reduce what every home is using on the electricity network. Going back to the earlier point, our challenge is to try not to build new stuff but to maximise what is already there, so that we are not effectively stranding any investment.

Mr Baker: I just had that small point. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Super. Thank you.

We are over time, but thank you very much for coming to the Committee today. We appreciate it. There may be some follow up for further information. No doubt, you will be back at the Committee soon. Thank you for your time today; we appreciate it.