Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome the following representatives from the Northern Ireland Mushroom Growers Association (NIMGA) to brief the Committee and answers any questions: Mr John McArdle, deputy chairperson of the association; and Mr Martin McKee, one of its members. You are very welcome. I apologise for keeping you waiting, but we have just had a rather heavy evidence session. I ask that you give us your briefing. Thank you.

Mr John McArdle (Northern Ireland Mushroom Growers Association): Chairperson and members, thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee today on behalf of the Northern Ireland Mushroom Growers Association. The mushroom sector is a key part of the agri-food industry, contributing £42 million annually, with an additional £22 million in the local supply chain. It is a significant employer, providing 10% of all mushrooms and 40% of organic mushrooms across the UK.

Our industry is at a critical juncture, however. The fruit and vegetables aid scheme is the only substantial support mechanism available to us. Any reduction in or removal of the scheme without a clear and fully funded replacement would have devastating consequences for mushroom growers.

We are calling on the NI Executive to, first, amend the legislation to retain the 4·1% baseline, which is the minimum level at which the Minister can exercise discretionary powers. That safeguard is crucial to maintaining essential support. Secondly, we are calling on the Executive to remove the power to revoke the fruit and veg aid scheme and ensure that, if the scheme is withdrawn, it is replaced immediately with a new scheme that provides at least the same level of support and is developed in consultation with the mushroom sector. Why does that matter? The mushroom industry relies on the fruit and veg aid scheme, which provides £1·6 million in support annually. Other existing schemes do not meet our needs. DEFRA has not outlined how it will replace the fruit and veg aid scheme. That leaves Northern Ireland growers in limbo. DAERA must step in to provide certainty.

The Irish Government have invested €19 million annually in their horticulture sector, including in schemes that directly benefit mushroom growers. Without comparable support, Northern Ireland mushroom growers will struggle to compete. Recent events, such as the storm, have put additional financial strain on growers, with their insurance failing to cover losses.

We have proposals for an enhanced producer organisation (PO) scheme. Instead of reducing support, there is potential to grow the industry. Only 40% of mushrooms sold in the UK are grown here. That represents an opportunity to enhance the PO scheme. We propose revising the recognition criteria to make it easier for growers to engage in the PO; ensuring that capex items purchased through the PO remain with primary producers; introducing a seven-year scheme to allow for long-term investment; providing 80% funding for automation and robotics, in line with EU standards; incentivising environmental and R&D actions with funding that is comparable with the EU's 80% support; and increasing flexibility and funding for promotional activities.

The Committee will note that we forwarded our correspondence with the First Minister and deputy First Minister. That followed a letter and paper that we submitted, which included a request to follow up on a commitment from the deputy First Minister to Michelle McIlveen that any possible meetings with the Home Office would involve the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the Economy Minister. The correspondence informed us:

Whilst we welcome that collaborative working, the issues facing the mushroom sector are not new or emerging, so it is hard to hear about policies emerging in due course, given the urgency that is required and the opportunities for the industry.

We ask the Committee to, first, table an amendment to clause 1, which would insert 4·1% as the minimum level of support, with the option for enhancements; secondly, ensure that the scheme cannot be revoked without a direct replacement that maintains current funding and is developed with industry input; thirdly, press the Minister and the Executive to secure a meeting with the UK Government on a bespoke visa scheme for the mushroom sector; and, lastly, establish a safety net to protect growers from external shocks, as exists in other parts of agriculture.

In conclusion, the mushroom industry is at risk, but there is also significant potential. With the right support, we can grow, enhance food security and strengthen our rural economy. We urge the Committee to take steps to protect and support that vital sector. Thank you. I am happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much, John and Martin, for joining us. This is something that the Committee has spoken about a number of times, so it is good to have you with us, front and centre. Thank you for your paper, including the detail on the number of areas in which you think we can help. The Committee certainly has the vires to discuss a couple of them. A couple of the areas sit outside our vires but are things in which we are interested, particularly the stuff on visas, so we will be encouraging the Minister in that regard.

You recommend that DAERA:

What sort of things do you feel that scheme could cover and provide for?

Mr McArdle: I will take the past weekend as an example: several of our mushroom growers took a hit. The two most recent storms have cost me £80,000. I am not insured for that. We cannot get insurance from the farmers' union for polytunnels.
Personally, I am struggling to get out of that situation. Last year, there was bad weather. People might think that, because they are grown inside, mushrooms are not affected by wet weather, but we are affected by the price of straw. When the price of straw went up, our compost prices went up by £20 per ton. That cost me an extra £1,500 per week. Before that, there was the Ukraine war. Every year, something that is completely out of our control hits us.

DAERA's website says that the farm sustainability payment will be a farmer's "safety net". We are not eligible for that. We have brought that to the Department's attention, but the message that we need a safety net does not seem to be getting through.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): You mentioned the scope for expansion and said that 40% of the mushrooms that are sold in the UK are grown here.

Mr McArdle: No, 40% of mushrooms sold in the UK are grown in the UK. Northern Ireland mushrooms comprise 10% of mushroom sales in the UK. The figure is higher for organic mushrooms: we grow between 40% and 50% of all organic mushrooms that are sold in the UK.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. Do you think that there is scope to expand that?

Mr McArdle: There is definitely scope to expand it. Had we the same support as our counterparts in the Republic of Ireland (ROI), I have no doubt that the industry here could double in size. That is how much support the industry in ROI has through investment.

I want to expand my business. A better option for me would be to go 15 miles down the road, go across the border and start completely afresh there with the support that is available, but I do not want to do that. I want to stay in Northern Ireland and support the Northern Ireland economy.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): We know about the fiscal part of the scheme in the South, but when it comes to the mechanisms, what is the money from those schemes available for?

Mr McArdle: A number of different mechanisms are available in the South. We talk about robotics and automation, which is the future for mushrooms, and a scheme in that area started last year in the South. They are lobbying hard for similar schemes from next year on. There is a trial going on in Monaghan that is using robots to pick mushrooms. The use of robotics would ease our visa problem, but unfortunately it will take time — four or five years — to filter down through the sector. That is why we keep going back to the visa issue. ROI has a three-year visa, which can be extended by a further two years to a five-year visa. Taking that and looking at what it will cost us pro rata, we see that it costs us around £72,000 more than our competitors in the South for one position.

As far as support schemes are concerned, our counterparts in the South have the PO scheme; they avail themselves of aid up to the 4·1% limit; and they get funding for environmental measures and research at a rate of 80%. We know growers in the South who are putting battery systems in, which would have helped to alleviate some of our costs or losses, because, when the electricity went off this year, we would have had some back-up until we got things sorted out. There is help to improve the quality of the product and productivity. They have a horticulture scheme in the South, which helps to increase capacity. You name it, they have it. The only thing that we have is the fruit and veg aid scheme, and we do not know what is happening with that.

I appreciate that the Agriculture Bill has to go through the processes. It will leave the Committee towards the end of May. We are creeping closer to the end of the year, and we have to plan ahead but we cannot not do that. Our biggest problem is that we do not know what is coming down the line. We do not know where we will stand at the end of the year. How do we plan for next year and for growing our business? How do we plan the survival of our business? How do we plan to upgrade our business? We do not know what is coming.

Mr McGlone: Essentially, what is your ask?

Mr McArdle: Our ask is that the fruit and veg aid scheme be amended so that there is the commitment to the 4·1% investment.

Mr McGlone: And that legislation that excepts you from does not go ahead ?

Mr McArdle: We propose that the legislation is amended to put in the 4·1% figure.

Mr McGlone: I listened to what you said about the workers and the labour problem. Did the Executive Office not give you assurances at one stage that it was going to meet the UK Government about that?

Mr McArdle: The Executive Office was going to get together cross-departmentally and meet the Home Office. We have heard nothing back.

Mr McGlone: How long has that been going on?

Mr McArdle: How long have we been shouting about visas?

Mr McGlone: No, sorry. Everybody is shouting about visas. I meant specifically the item with the Executive Office.

Mr McArdle: That was in September or October last year.

Mr McGlone: 2024.

Mr McArdle: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Good question, Patsy.

Mr Blair: Thanks, John and Martin. It is good to see you. You touched on the level of interdepartmental support across the Executive, and I am keen to know what more is needed. Is intervention needed, as we saw previously with pork producers and during COVID, for example? Is that what is needed, or are you thinking longer term? I think that you are, but I want to hear that from you.

I have a separate question on decarbonisation.

Mr McArdle: In the shorter term, mushroom growers took a hit in the most recent storm as well as in the storms of last year and the year before. We have had absolutely no help with that, so our pots are running dry and we are in the red.

In the longer term, we need support. In ROI, its equivalent to the fruit and veg aid scheme is for seven years. That means that growers there can plan ahead for seven years. They know what is coming down the line and what they can invest in this year, next year and the year after. They can plan ahead. They can think, "We will do that this year, which will improve x. We will do this next year, which will improve y". They can continue to grow their industry, whereas we do not know what is coming. We have no idea what is coming down the line. We do not know where the funding will come from and not just with the fruit and veg aid scheme. For example, applications to the farm business investment scheme — the old scheme — took so long and it was so competitive. As I said in a previous session, I applied to the farm business investment scheme in May 2022, and it took until December 2023 to get a letter of offer. That was 18 months in which I was sitting still and did not know whether I was going to get the letter of offer. You then have to start planning ahead again. You are three years down the line before you can put anything in motion, and it is very hard to work like that in our industry. That is where we are coming from.

We want to see stability over the longer term. We have brought the issues to the different areas of the Department. We brought it to Rosemary, who was here earlier, to Alison Chambers and to the College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE). The horticulture pilot scheme is, I think, within Rosemary's remit. One of my bugbears is that the stats for Northern Ireland agriculture put the mushroom industry's worth at £26 million, but it is worth £41 million or £42 million.

Mr Blair: To be clear, John, could other Ministers do anything to assist?

Mr McArdle: We have asked. We met the Economy Minister. The legislation restricts what that Department can offer us, because we are primary agriculture producers.

Mr Blair: As primary producers, what is your ability to secure support, from whatever source, for decarbonisation — I said that I would ask a question on decarbonisation — and sustainability? Those issues are, first, key to the agrisector, but they are also key if you want to grow the economics of what you are doing and grow your contribution to climate targets.

Mr McArdle: Mushroom growers have used the PO scheme and the fruit and veg aid scheme to improve efficiencies and install renewables, such as biomass boilers. We have done all those things to improve our efficiency and reduce our carbon footprint. Our carbon footprint is very low compared with that of beef, sheep and pork producers. It is very low, but we want to improve on it. Our only mechanism for doing so is the fruit and veg aid scheme. When that goes, we will have nothing.

Another thing that we are working on, as an industry, is reducing peat use with a view to doing away with peat and producing peat-free mushrooms, but that will come at a substantial cost. To transition, we will need help. Does that answer your question?

Mr Blair: Yes, thank you.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you for your presentation. We have met before and discussed some of the challenges that you have, particularly on access to the workforce. We will continue to advocate for you on that. I appreciate that you face a challenge with the support that you get from the Department. I have submitted some questions about that, and I will probably be quite shocked at the level of support that exists.

You referred to accessing hardship and crisis support, which I raised with Rosemary Agnew in the previous evidence session. Have you had recent conversations on that issue with the Department? The plan is to look at a framework of support. Have you had any conversations about that?

Mr McArdle: Over the past six months, we have met with Rosemary and mentioned the safety net. We did not get any joy or assistance. We were pushed towards the horticulture pilot scheme, and we mentioned that it is not relevant to us. I do not know whether that has been relayed to the Minister because every time we receive correspondence from him, he pushes us towards the horticulture pilot scheme even though it is of absolutely no use to us. I spoke earlier this week to our representative in the Department who looks after mushrooms, and told them about the damage from storm Éowyn, and he said, "That's a tara". That is the support that we are getting from the Department — none.

Miss McIlveen: Just to be clear, when we talk about the legislation being amended to retain 4·1% as the baseline, what does that mean in real terms?

Mr McArdle: In monetary terms?

Miss McIlveen: Yes.

Mr McArdle: The value of marketed production (VMP) in the mushroom industry is around £40 million annually, so 4·1% of that is £1·6 million per annum.

Miss McIlveen: Chair, I am conscious that we are spending a bit of time on this, and, if you will excuse the pun, some of us are probably in the dark about the mushroom sector. If our schedule allows it, I suggest that the Committee goes out on-site to meet some growers just to see what they do and the impacts that they experience, particularly given that the industry is very weather dependent.

Mr McArdle: Yes, by all means. You are more than welcome. We had Minister Steve Baker out on a farm, and his view of the mushroom industry changed completely as a result. It is OK sitting talking about it, but until you see the mushroom industry in action, how mushrooms are grown and the work that we do, it is very hard to visualise. We are not field-based: everybody has a vision of agriculture that involves fields and crops, but we are not like that.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I just noticed that we have in our information packs a response from the Executive Office to your request to engage on the visa issue. It notes that the Agriculture Minister has been engaged in that area. The Committee has been interested in pushing on that. Committee members have spoken at length on the issue in the Chamber, and the Committee has written to the Minister on it. That is one of your asks to which we will continue to commit.

Mr Irwin: There is sympathy within the Committee for your position. You mentioned the use of robots for picking mushrooms. I know that labour is a big issue. Are any robots already available in Northern Ireland?

Mr Martin McKee (Northern Ireland Mushroom Growers Association): That is still ongoing. There is nothing concrete yet.

Mr Irwin: If it was successful, would it make a big difference to your situation labour-wise?

Mr McArdle: Labour-wise it would make a huge difference to us but the problem is the cost. Monaghan Mushrooms is trialling four robots. Each robot costs £175,000.

Mr Irwin: That is big money.

Mr McArdle: We do not know if that particular robot scheme works, which why they are trialling it in Monaghan. To retrofit that in our industry right now would cost £64 million. Of course, that would not be done overnight; it would be phased in over a number of years.

Mr Irwin: It is not going to happen tomorrow.

Mr McArdle: Unfortunately, it will not happen tomorrow. I wish that robots were here. [Laughter.]

Mr McKee: There is a market for UK mushrooms. The supermarkets would rather buy UK produce than buy produce from ROI or Poland. The problem is that the schemes in ROI are more competitive, and they can sell mushrooms cheaper than we can.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): The consumer likes to get them as cheaply as possible.

Mr McKee: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): They like a good product, but they also like —.

Mr McKee: They like the UK produce, but, you know —.

Mr McArdle: Of the mushrooms that are sold in the UK, 27% come from Poland and 6% come from the Netherlands.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): There is global competition, really, even for a product with a short shelf life.

Mr McArdle: Yes, there is competition from Europe. We are hit with the support that those other countries get; for example, ROI supplies 25% of the UK's mushrooms. In addition, everybody is pushing us to go down the peat-free route. That will be massive for us. We are working hard on that — there are peat-free mushrooms in supermarkets right now — but there is a cost factor in it. When the legislation comes in for Northern Ireland and the UK to go peat-free, which we are all for, if we are getting 60% of our mushrooms from outside the UK, that will be a problem.

Miss Brogan: Thanks for your presentation. It is good to get a better understanding of the challenges that you face. You were saying, John, that the storm last week brought more heartache and issues for you to deal with. I wish you all the best with that.

I wanted to talk about the challenges that you face from the South of Ireland's alignment with the EU and how that affects the competitiveness of the mushroom industry in the North. You have already touched on those issues. You mentioned your ongoing engagement with the Department and said that you have spoken to Rosemary a few times and to different officials. Have you spoken to the Department about your suggestion that the Committee tables an amendment to the Bill to retain the 4·1% baseline, or was that more of a consultation response? What kind of response have you had from the Department on that?

Mr McArdle: We have not spoken to the Department. As an industry, we are trying to come up with a solution ourselves that will help the Department. If the Bill is passed as it is right now, support could be withdrawn from the mushroom industry. At the end of the day, we do not know where we stand. I have spoken to representatives from Teagasc in the South. They reckon that the mushroom industry in the North will be finished in the next five to 10 years because there will be no investment in it, which means the houses and quality control that we have will dwindle away until we disappear. We are asking for the amendment on the 4·1% baseline so that that funding is secure for the industry. We are also asking for the replacement of the proposal to repeal the fruit and veg aid scheme, because, if we repeal or revoke that scheme, where will that leave us? It will leave us with nothing.

I will use the horticulture pilot scheme as an example. When the scheme was announced in May 2024, at a meeting it was said that it would be live in autumn 2024. We are now talking about it being autumn 2025 before it is live. That is a delay of 12 months. We do not know what is coming down the line. We do not know what the Department's plans are. If the fruit and veg aid scheme is repealed, what will come next? We do not know. Whatever it is will not be immediate. It will not happen on 1 January 2026. It could be 2027 or 2028 before we get funding.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Patsy.

Mr McGlone: I just want to —.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Sorry, Nicola.

Mr McGlone: Sorry, Nicola. Excuse me.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Sorry. Go ahead.

Miss Brogan: It is all right. Thank you for that. That is OK, Chair. Go ahead.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, Nicola. I am sorry about that. Patsy.

Mr McGlone: I was just going to come in at the end on a few issues.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): That is OK, because I am going to wrap up the session shortly anyway to try and catch up.

Mr McGlone: Does someone else want to speak first?

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Everybody is done.

Mr McGlone: Right. On the horticulture scheme, I suggest that we ask the Department for the reason for the delay and whether it is likely to contain any sort of support for mushroom growers. Likewise, it might be useful to contact the Executive Office to ask what it has done on the issue of labour and whether it has had any communication with the Home Office on it. It would be unusual for no contact to be established, because if the issue has not been drawn to the attention of the Home Office, it will assume that there is no problem.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I have no issue with that. The first point is well made. John, you have given a good outline of your engagement on the pilot and where it is at the moment. I saw you shaking your head on the potential for mushrooms —.

Mr McArdle: As far as the potential for mushrooms in the horticulture pilot scheme is concerned, we have met with CAFRE, and it has admitted to us that it is of absolutely no benefit to the mushroom industry. We account for 50% of the horticulture sector, but it is of absolutely no benefit to us. That has not been relayed to the Minister, because he keeps pushing us towards the horticulture pilot scheme. That is the problem that we have. We are stating things, but they are not being relayed to the Minister.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. Patsy's point about the potential letter from the Committee is well made. It is just to get that cleared up with the Minister because sometimes —.

Mr McGlone: You are being told one thing, and the Minister is saying another. If there is an information or communication gap, that is the fault of the Department.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): On your second issue, Patsy, we have been engaged on the labour shortage stuff. However, I take your point and we will seek an update. There is a letter in the pack from the Executive Office on its understanding of the situation, dated 25 January. That is something to which we will be very alive. The robotics issue is also really important.

Before we close the meeting, it is fair to ask about this, because you have come up and given us your time. You have four asks there. Two of them — the bottom two — do not sit within the scope of the legislation. One is about the labour shortages: we are engaged on that and we will support that endeavour. The other one is about the safety net and the shock piece. We were speaking about that regarding the wider agriculture and horticulture sectors earlier, so, if you are happy enough, we will ensure that your comments are encapsulated in anything that we are doing in regard to shocks and a safety net. If you think of anything else, you can feed that in.

The top two asks are to table an amendment to clause 1 and to remove the power to revoke. I ask you this because at our next session the Committee will have to come to a position: is there anything else that you require of us or think that we should be alert to in the legislation?

Mr McArdle: We will send in a written briefing on the legislation, so we will put in writing anything that we have missed today.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Brilliant. OK.

Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming down. I know that you are up to your eyes. I was sorry to hear about the damage that was caused by the storm.

Mr McArdle: At 7.00 am on Friday, my uncle, my sister and I were trying to hold down covers to stop them blowing away. For safety reasons, we did not bring any workers in.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I get that. It was scary. Thank you very much for your time.