Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): We are pleased to be joined by Emma Hitchen, the senior participation and research officer with Parenting Focus, and Muriel Bailey, the head of services and operations with Parenting Focus. You are very welcome and we thank you for giving up your time to come to brief the Committee. As is the normal format for our briefings, I invite you to make your initial remarks or a presentation for up to 10 minutes, after which we will go to questions from members. Please feel free to add to my introductions, as appropriate.

Ms Muriel Bailey (Parenting Focus): I will give our statement, if that is OK. Chair and members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to address the mini inquiry into relationships and sexuality education (RSE). Parenting Focus is the leading organisation in Northern Ireland that is advocating for the voice of parents and carers of children. We are dedicated to supporting parents and ensuring that their voices are heard on decisions that affect them. We were established in 1979 and were formerly known as the Parents Advice Centre and, later, Parenting NI.

We provide free support through a range of services, including a Freephone support line, family support services in the home and various evidenced-based programmes and workshops. Our mission is to ensure that parents have access to timely support and information to guide them through their parenting journey. Our vision is of a society where parenting is valued, parents' voices are heard and every family receives the support that they need. We believe that the most effective way to support children is to support those who parent them, and we strive to deliver responsive and accessible parenting support and services across the region.

With that mission in mind, we will focus today on why comprehensive, age-appropriate and scientifically accurate RSE is vital for children and young people, and why it is equally essential to engage and support parents in that process. We understand the concerns of parents who may feel uneasy about certain topics. That is why we strongly believe that parents must be engaged as partners in RSE. Parents and those with a parenting responsibility have a critical role in their children's development, including shaping their values and beliefs. By consulting with and integrating parents into the curriculum development process, we can demystify the content of RSE and foster collaboration between schools and families.

Research, such as the Healthy Young Adult Relationships project by Lagdon et al, 2024, and the 'The JACK Trial' by Lohan et al, 2022, shows that when parents are actively involved in RSE, communication between them and children about relationships and sexuality improves. That not only promotes healthier and safer behaviours among young people but creates opportunities for families to explore moral and religious issues together. That collaborative approach empowers parents to provide guidance that is consistent with their values and ensures that all children receive the comprehensive, rights-based education that they need and deserve. The curriculum should include essential topics, such as consent, online safety, bodily autonomy and respect for diversity. Those are not only educational priorities; they are essential for our children's safety and well-being. Children who miss out on that learning may be more vulnerable to misinformation or exploitation. Consent education, in particular, is critical for fostering healthy relationships and addressing societal challenges such as domestic abuse and violence against women and girls.

As active members of the online safety committee, which undertakes the aims and objectives of the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland, we are keen that the curriculum will be future-proofed to ensure the safety of our children and young people in a quickly evolving world. It is also our firm position that the opt-out provision in the RSE curriculum should not exist. RSE is a statutory component of the curriculum and should be designed with the full participation of children and young people and their parents to be scientifically accurate, age-appropriate and comprehensive. There is no other subject in the curriculum where parents can withdraw their children from specific elements, and RSE should not be treated differently. Its purpose is to safeguard children and young people by equipping them with the knowledge and the skills to navigate relationships and sexual health responsibly and safely.

The legislative and policy framework already supports that position. The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, the recommendations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and the Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 all mandate factual, evidence-based RSE. Those policies highlight that opting out undermines the universal rights of children to access education that provides for their health and well-being. This is a matter of safeguarding and the human rights of children and young people, which every parent wants to uphold.

The Department of Education has a duty to ensure that all children receive high-quality RSE and that parents are supported to engage with that. Parenting Focus is keen to support the work of schools and policymakers to facilitate that partnership. We also share our concerns on the consultation processes for their proposals. Notwithstanding the significant response from parents that DE received to its consultation in 2023, it still has a duty under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which requires public authorities to:

between nine categories of people, including, for example, parents and persons without dependants. As such, and in accordance with the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI) guidance, consultation processes such as this one should ensure that the Department of Education understands the impact of its proposal on parents and carers, through direct engagement with them. It is disappointing that the Department did not engage in meaningful discussions with parents and carers.

To conclude, we urge the Committee to prioritise a framework that ensures that every child in Northern Ireland receives the comprehensive RSE that they are entitled to. At the same time, we ask that robust mechanisms be established to engage parents and provide them with the information and confidence to support their children as they navigate these vital topics.

Thank you for the opportunity to present today. Parenting Focus is happy to assist further, if needed. Emma and I welcome any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you for those initial remarks. I will start with a broader question. As a leading parents' charity, you get a lot of contact from parents on issues of concern. I want to get an idea of the sort of issues on RSE that come through your organisation? What sort of issues are raised in regard to views or concerns that are expressed or where parents want support or help?

Ms Bailey: Our first point of contact with the parents who come to Parenting Focus is through our support line. Issues about RSE can vary greatly. It is very much in a parent's language, so parents can call us on a daily basis. They may ask us to help them to navigate a difficult conversation that may be coming up with their child or young person on sexual education or inaccurate information that they may have heard from one of their peers. Parents themselves may be embarrassed and feel a little bit below par as to how they can navigate that, so they ring up, and we give them time and space to talk about the issue. It may be that children are talking about gender identity. Parents can feel really lost in that. They do not want to shut down a conversation and they want to let their children explore what they want to talk about, but they are not sure what that looks like because it is an unknown. It varies very much. Contact is normally through our support line, and then we have other programmes. During programme sessions, parents may use the opportunity to talk to each other about what it is like in their households.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Does the specific issue of RSE provision come through in the contact with parents?

Ms Bailey: The contact is more about the topic of sexuality, relationships and consent than it is about parents ringing up to talk specifically about the RSE curriculum.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It is about what is or is not happening in the school.

Ms Bailey: Yes.

Ms Emma Hitchen (Parenting Focus): We consulted parents last year in our Big Parenting Survey, which is our generalised parenting survey. In that, we ask parents their opinion on topics that are of concern to them. The topic of RSE very much came through in that, in things like the online safety of our children and young people, how parents navigate that world when they feel completely lost in it and the lack of support that there is for them in that area. Another issue that comes up a lot is that of relationships and having difficult conversations with our children and young people about accessing contraception and things that parents are not completely comfortable discussing. Parents have been saying that this is a concern. We also did a significant piece of work on the Ofcom consultation, 'Protecting children from harms online'. Access to pornography and things like that very much came through as an issue in that consultation. Parents have no clue about how to navigate that world. That was very much a concern of parents. A lot of the other work that we have done focused on RSE.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I will ask about the interaction between schools and parents. We have heard a lot of evidence and, almost without exception, the academic evidence that we have heard is that RSE works when parents are engaged in it. That theme has been consistent throughout the inquiry. How effectively do you think schools in Northern Ireland engage with parents? I know that it is a very broad spectrum but, in the feedback that you receive from parents, how effective is that on the specific issue of the RSE curriculum?

Ms Hitchen: That is something for which we very much advocate. We understand that parental participation in education is one of the main indicators of success. It is something that we advocate for highly. We hear from schools and parents that they find it difficult to engage parents with the RSE curriculum. There has been a lot of misinformation and fearmongering on the RSE curriculum, especially about its amendment. That has caused great concern for parents. Parents are now at a stage where, such is the fear of RSE, they nearly think that to opt-out is the easier option, because they cannot engage with the curriculum. We have recommendations on how schools can engage with parents in the first instance, early on in that process, to ensure that there is no misinformation and quickly address any misinformation that has been spread. It is a duty of the Department to ensure that those processes are put in place so that schools are able to do that.

Another issue is the participation of parents in the RSE policies in schools. A lot of parents tell us that they are not even aware of what the RSE policy is.

Parental participation would be a great starting point to ensuring that there is no chance of misinformation and parents are aware of what is on the curriculum. It is important to have a transparent relationship between schools and parents so that parents understand what is in the curriculum and schools can dispel any of the fears that parents have before their children have had access to it.

It would also be good to implement a workshop ahead of any curriculum activities taking place so that parents are aware of what their children are being taught and have the chance to talk about it with the school and look at it in line with the school's ethos. The curriculum leaves a lot of room to discuss the more contentious issues. They can also be discussed in other subjects, such as RE, in line with the ethos of the school. That provides parents with the opportunity to have those difficult conversations. We get calls to our support line from parents saying, "We do not know where to go to get support", but, if that were implemented in schools, hopefully, parents would not get to the point where they feel the need to ring and ask for support. That would lay the groundwork for parents to have those difficult conversations with their children and young people.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): My final question is on recommendations that you may want to make. Early in this inquiry, the Education Authority (EA) was clear that it provides no real support to boards of governors on writing policies or engagement with parents on such issues. It said that it was not resourced to do that. Would you support more proactive engagement from the EA or the Department to upskill school boards of governors to do parental engagement work on policy writing and curriculum engagement?

Ms Hitchen: We would, absolutely. That is the only way. Parents are fearful of the journey, and we need to bring them along from the start. It really is the Department's duty to provide that engagement. There has been a change to the curriculum, and schools, boards of governors and teachers need to be upskilled to fulfil it.

We would, absolutely, offer our services. We provide training on engaging effectively with parents, and we would offer our services on how to do that. It is a vital part of the process, and it really needs to be done in order to have comprehensive RSE in schools.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. That is all from me.

Mr Sheehan: I will follow on from that. Does Parenting Focus have much engagement with schools?

Ms Hitchen: Yes, absolutely. We engage regularly with schools. At the minute, we are doing parental participation for the RAISE programme and are engaging with schools across Northern Ireland. We regularly engage with schools and go in to talk to parents or parent groups through focus groups. We also run some of our programmes, such as the Summerhill programme, through schools.

Ms Bailey: We have the Summerhill programme, which is funded by a funder here in Belfast. It is a cost-of-living programme that goes into schools across Northern Ireland. We deliver that, and we have two family support programmes in three schools in Strabane and three in Antrim for which we provide regular services. We have worked an awful lot on building capacity so that parents feel comfortable and able to communicate with the school team and school teams are aware that parents sometimes find it hard to come forward and express their views. We do that regularly.

Mr Sheehan: Have you had any engagement with schools on the delivery of RSE?

Ms Bailey: We have delivered a small element of the curriculum. We were asked to deliver it last year to post-primary schools in Belfast. The schools had some money and wanted us to help them with that.

Mr Sheehan: To deliver the curriculum?

Ms Bailey: We were delivering an element of information to young pupils on what early parenting might look like and why they might want to focus on its not necessarily being a life choice for them. It was an additional part of helping the school with the curriculum.

Mr Sheehan: OK. Thanks for that. The Chair raised the issue of schools engaging with parents, and you said that Parenting Focus would be able to help with that. What are we talking about, logistically? What would that look like?

Ms Hitchen: There have been suggestions before from schools about having parenting hubs in schools. We would facilitate that. We have found that it works when we to go into a school and run our Summerhill programme. We are able to bring the parents in. They then feel comfortable in the school setting. A lot of the work that we do is to help parents feel comfortable in the school environment. A lot of them have had negative experiences, and they disengage from their children's education.

As you know, the RAISE programme is focused on parents' engagement in their child's education and on raising educational attainment. We could do that in many ways. We have looked at doing a survey and focus groups in schools, asking parents how they would like to engage with their school and telling them the benefits of engaging with their children's education. A lot of parents are completely unaware of how beneficial that will be for their child until someone goes in and has that conversation with them. It is about looking at what we can implement in the school that will meet the needs of the parents and the families and then putting in place different interventions that will meet those needs.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It would be good to get more information on the Summerhill programme as it sounds like something that the Committee would be interested in. If you have some written information on that, we would be very happy to receive it.

Mrs Guy: Thanks very much for coming in today. I am a fan of your organisation. I was a parenting champion when I was first elected to council, so I have a lot of experience working with your organisation, and I very much appreciate what you do.

I do not want to get you to repeat too much, but you expressed to the Chair your recommendations for RSE: what is your expectation for the outworking of the inquiry? What would you like to see after we have completed the process and pulled together a report? Off the back of the inquiry, what would progress look like in RSE in schools?

Ms Hitchen: We would like to see an element of parental participation and how that will work in reality. In our statement, we expressed that we were disappointed that DE did not undertake a formal consultation process with parents. Although we had no formal consultation process with parents, we met the Department in October 2023 to express the fact that that was really important: they are key stakeholders in their children's RSE experience. Of the respondents to the consultation, 47% were parents, which shows that parents have real concern around the topic. We were disappointed, therefore, that the Department did not undertake its statutory duty to consult with parents. We would like to see parents prioritised in the process. We know that parents are invested in it and that they want the best outcomes for their children and young people, so parental participation is a key element that we would really like to see.

Mrs Guy: The Department is doing some work on the curriculum at the minute. Will the evidence base from this inquiry be helpful in any exploration of RSE in that context?

Ms Hitchen: Absolutely. We had a look through the curriculum. The revised curriculum needs to be future-proofed, given all those things that concern parents. We hear daily that parents have concerns around online safety, so that is something that we are very much concerned about. Parents just feel clueless in that space. They do not understand it; their children and young people understand it a lot more than they do. We would like to see the curriculum being future-proofed against those changes, bringing into consideration things such as AI that may not have been included. It really needs to be future-proofed.

Mrs Guy: We have talked about social media and the online world, which are such important and scary issues for parents. Are you hearing from parents about toxic male influences online and their effect, which is to radicalise some of our young men? Are parents expressing concerns about how they can counter some of the stuff that they perhaps hear their young people repeat from influences such as those on social media? If you wish, you could comment on social media more generally, its impact and how parents are struggling or otherwise to deal with the challenge that it presents.

Ms Hitchen: Social media is an ever-evolving minefield, and parents feel that they cannot keep up to date with it. We have heard concerns from parents about male misogyny and the influences that their young men are subject to. We have programmes that target aggression. We have a specific programme called Walking on Eggshells.

Ms Bailey: That programme was developed with the University of Galway. We were involved in that about 10 years ago. It is a non-violence resistance programme that is very much for addressing child-to-parent violence. Unfortunately, in some homes, young people — potentially as young as 10 — may exhibit aggressive and violent behaviour towards their parents. Through the programmes that we have offered, many of which were funded by the assets recovery funding, we have found that the majority of cases, unfortunately, involve young boys perpetrating violence against their mums.

The programme, when we were delivering it initially, was for mothers, because that is what met the criteria for the funding. However, it is has evolved in that we now offer it to mums and dads. It is a programme that is very welcome, and the outcomes are very positive because it very much puts the control in the home back on to the parent very slowly over an eight-week process where we work very closely with the parent. We use that programme to help support that element of trying to look at violence against women and girls, but particularly mums in that instance.

Mr Brooks: It is useful to say that there is a certain narrative around RSE at times that creates fear, and there are different views on this Committee, but, in the context of all this, most of us can agree with the vast majority of what you are talking about as being the things that we need to address.

I am going to come on to your position on the opt-out. What we have heard from groups that represent people of faith or from third parties that are at different places on the spectrum of thought on that, is that opt-out rates are very low anyway and that they are especially low when there is that engagement with parents and parents become aware of what their children are going be taught. That does away with some of the myths and fears that they may have about what exactly is being taught. From my position, that is definitely best practice in all of this and is really positive to see.

In that relationship between school and parent, I am particularly thinking of people who have concerns about specific elements of RSE. People generally want to protect their children against violence against women and girls and online harms. Where they do have concern is around some of those issues. You talked about the importance of parents being able to pass on their values and so on to their children. Do you not feel that having a starting point of the parent's not having any right to decide, ultimately, what their children are being taught undermines that trust in the relationship right from the outset, whereby it is a case of, "We're going to inform you and we're going to talk to you, but, ultimately, we are going to teach your child whatever we want to teach anyway"? Obviously, that is from the state's point of view, not yours, but do you understand what I am saying?

Ms Hitchen: I absolutely understand what you are saying, but, from our position, this is a comprehensive, scientifically accurate and age-appropriate curriculum that has been mandated, so we see no reason why any parent should be opting their child out of that. Our organisation is very much based on article 2, where there is the parent's right to bring their child up and give them the best start to life. However, we also have to recognise UNCRC article 5, which recognises the increasing capacity of children and young people. When we are looking at the opt-out, there should be no reason, as long as the curriculum is deemed scientifically accurate, age-appropriate and comprehensive, why any parent would be removing them. We also have to be conscious that, as a child is moving into year 12, they are reaching the age of consent, so they are still at the stage where they could be at the age of consent but their parents could be opting them out. We also think that there could be difficulty in year 12, where the child has to agree to that opt-out. That could cause some contention between the child and the parent, and put an onus on to the child to stand up to their parent and say, "No, actually, I would like to participate in this". I think that that could cause difficulties there for the parent/child relationship and could cause it to be more fractious, if anything.

Mr Brooks: There are many things that could cause a parent/child relationship to be fractious, but, ultimately, it comes down to the parent's right to parent their child and to decide, up to the appropriate age — there will be a discussion around what that is — what is appropriate for them. On some of the more controversial issues, it is impossible to have those kinds of discussions. We talk often about "scientifically accurate", but it is impossible to have those discussions outside any discussion of values that inform debate, not just here but across the world. Abortion, for instance, is an obvious one. You can talk about people's different views of sex and gender. I do not expect you to talk about this, but this week, with Trump coming in, there has been an executive order in the US saying that they only recognise two. Some people will rejoice at that and others will be horrified by it. That is the same across the world, so how do you discuss that in a classroom, in a scientifically accurate way, when it is a contested space? Ultimately, you end up with one particular view being given to the child without the parent being able to decide, and that reflects on their ability to hand down those values and beliefs and how they influence them.

Ms Hitchen: I disagree. The curriculum very much provides a space for scientific accuracy to be taught, but it also provides space to discuss everything around that, including the ethical and moral implications. That is also why parental participation in the process is vital, so that they are aware of what is being taught in school, and that then provides them with the opportunity to discuss their family values around those subjects. However, we believe that the curriculum is scientifically accurate, so that is not something that can be discussed. That is the current legislation in Northern Ireland, and children need to be informed on that. We would be doing children and young people a disservice if we were not informing them. A school does have its ethos, and there is a lot of room in the curriculum for discussion on that. Children can also discuss that through their religious education. This is not a case of a parent's right versus a child's right. It is very much parents and children on that journey together to discuss the scientifically accurate information, their views and values, and how they see the way forward.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Briefly, David, please.

Mr Brooks: I will finish off with this. I agree with parental engagement. I have talked quite a few times about that discoursing nature so that we all understand and respect each other coming from different points of view, so I agree with that. I guess that the only difference is with the opt-out. It is a contested space in some of these issues that we cannot get around.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, David.

Mr Crawford: Thanks, Emma and Muriel, for your time today. It really is appreciated.

I want to pick up on some of the topics that you think should be in the curriculum: dignity, bodily autonomy, child protection, online safety and domestic abuse. When it comes to special schools and children in special schools, how should RSE be delivered? Is the curriculum suitable for children in a special school setting?

Ms Bailey: Parenting Focus advocates for special schools to have the knowledge, skill and expertise behind that. Again, it should be in conjunction with parents but also in conjunction with the Department of Education on what that may look like, particularly what the needs are of children in those schools, because children in some special schools will have different needs than others. That should evolve as it progresses, because that is a totally different ask. This may not be a topic that needs to be discussed with some of those children. It is about knowing your children and what they are capable of being involved in.

Ms Hitchen: Parental participation is even more vital in that situation, where those children are more vulnerable as well. If that means bringing in third party specialists in that area to discuss those things with parents or with the children themselves, then that is the correct process. The parental engagement element is even more important when you are discussing children who are particularly vulnerable.

Mr Crawford: Thank you.

Mr Martin: Thanks for your evidence today. I have worked with Parenting NI, and I know Muriel.

I will pick up where David left off, which is the area of ethos and values. Your written submission states:

In your oral evidence, you mentioned fact-based education; that has came through a few times. Are any areas of RSE disputed, or is there a clear curriculum that can be taught that is not disputed?

Ms Hitchen: There absolutely is a clear curriculum that can be taught. It can be done within the ethos of a school and within a family's values as well. Plenty of opportunity is provided in the curriculum to discuss these things. With an issue such as abortion, there is definitely space to discuss the moral implications, feelings and emotions moving forward, and how it might impact on someone for the rest of their life. Due consideration is given to those issues. There should be a standardised curriculum that leaves room for those discussions to happen and for parents to be involved in those. For those particularly contentious topics, we strongly advocate for parents to be involved in that from the very beginning and aware of what their children are being taught. They need to see how they can be involved in that discussion. Those discussions can then be facilitated outside the classroom in the family home, so that parents have the opportunity to discuss their family values and opinions and how they can support their children.

Mr Martin: You believe that it could be taught in that way. Surely, if you were to look at the news, at X or the world around us — my colleague mentioned the American election — you would see clear disputes about the simplest of questions, such as, for example, "What is a woman?". That is not an agreed area. I will not put you under pressure by asking you what you think about that. That is the simplest question in the world, and people have different views on it, but you are saying that there is an answer to it. There may be an answer to it, but that is not for the Committee to decide. If the answer to a question as simple as, "What is a woman?" is disputed, how can it be taught in a school?

Ms Hitchen: We are saying that the school should facilitate the conversations around that issue and support all children and their parents, regardless of their views. Regardless of what anyone thinks is the right or wrong answer to that question, the child should be supported in what they think and through whatever they are going through. Our role is to facilitate the parent in doing that. We have calls to our support line about issues around that. Parents are lost when it comes to handling those situations. The curriculum facilitates those conversations, but we need to support all our children and young people, regardless of their experience.

Ms Bailey: It is important to stress that it happens in a safe environment. Yes, there will always be input from others that some people will or will not agree with. There will be throwaway comments that are totally inaccurate, but if a child is in a safe environment, and the parents support them being in it, you would hope that the teacher who is facilitating the discussion has the skills to enable the a young person to explore things that they may have heard but that may be inaccurate, but the young person is still in a safe space. Hopefully, the young people will all leave with a consensus of understanding, regardless of whether they agree with it. We are advocating for parents to know what their children are discussing in that classroom setting.

Mr Martin: I do not disagree with that. What you said at the end about having safe space for kids, whatever situation they are in, is really important. My question pointed to the fact that I do not believe that we can address RSE just on facts. I gave you the simplest example in the world of a fact that is disputed and on which people have different views. What you believe about that question is down to your ethos and values, which you mentioned in your written evidence. Our ethos and values in our schools are really important.

I will finish on a point that the Deputy Chair reflected on earlier and about which we have heard a lot in this Committee. There are lots of really important things that the Committee agrees on, some of which you have touched on: consent, violence against women and girls, safeguarding and so forth. There are other things that we do not agree on. Those are probably more to do with our ethos and values. Further than that, when people use the phrase "scientifically accurate, age-appropriate and comprehensive", I have a different view as to what is scientifically accurate. I might not agree with someone else who says, "That is obviously that" or "It is not that. It is that". My question was trying to illustrate the fact that I believe that it is very hard to define what scientifically accurate, age-appropriate and comprehensive RSE is and to find agreement on that. Sorry, Emma, go ahead.

Ms Hitchen: Look at the two areas where parents can opt their child out: early access to pregnancy prevention and abortion. There is nothing in there that can really be contested as scientifically inaccurate. From our point of view, there is nothing inaccurate in those two areas where we feel that there should not be an opt-out. There is still space around that to discuss the moral implications. Again, we are keen to advocate for families having the opportunity and the space to discuss that with their children and young people, with the chance to put forward their views. In the two areas where parents can opt out their children, however, there is nothing that is scientifically inaccurate.

Mr Martin: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I have not had any other indications, so that brings the evidence session to a close. Thank you very much for your time. Feel free to make your way out. We appreciate your coming to the Committee this afternoon.

Ms Hitchen: Thank you.

Ms Bailey: Thank you.