Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I welcome Mr Chris Conway, chief executive of Translink; Mr Ian Campbell, director of service operations; and Mr John Glass, director of infrastructure and projects. We appreciate your time and your coming to the Committee in a quick time frame.

Are members content that the evidence be recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you.

We have your written evidence, so I will give you five minutes to briefly update the Committee, and then I will come to members' questions.

Mr Chris Conway (Translink): Thank you, Chair and Committee members. I will give a quick summary of our written submission.

Traffic congestion is a complex issue. It requires a cross-agency approach, and a group involving DFI, Translink, PSNI and Belfast City Council among others was set up. We also work closely with key stakeholders. A series of measures was implemented, and those had positive outcomes. However, we also recognise that more needs to be done with regard to congestion, including looking at measures to address the increasing demand from private vehicles to use the city. Translink is committed to playing its full role in working with the other agencies to address congestion. There is, of course, a need for greater investment in and focus on public transport and other sustainable travel solutions to help address congestion.

Some of the things that we have done and will continue to look towards, subject to funding, include working with DFI to advance bus passenger prioritisation measures, otherwise known as bus lanes, in Belfast city to make public transport a more attractive and continuous option. We have looked at and will continue to look at enhancing the frequency of bus and rail routes in and out of the city. As you are aware, we are working to introduce later evening and night-time services as well to support the night-time economy, and we have a business case in on that. We want to increase the number of park-and-ride sites around Belfast and further out into rural areas and to extend the use and frequency of the current park-and-ride sites. We intend to communicate and have communicated public transport availability — for example, by directing drivers to park-and-ride sites with roadside signage — and to communicate with stakeholders and customers to encourage the use of bus and rail options. You will be aware that, in recent months, we have introduced contactless ticketing and ticket vending machines into the network. Again, that is to encourage people to use public transport and to make it easy for them to access public transport. We have relocated some services as a result of the construction that is going on at Belfast Grand Central station. We plan to relocate those services back into the network, close to where they used to be, during the construction phases in 2025.

While many of the measures that I have outlined have had a positive impact, we emphasise that greater measures along those lines, as well as additional investment, are required to see a significant modal shift towards public transport. Investment in high-quality public transport is vital for Belfast and other cities across Northern Ireland to move more people to public transport, reduce congestion and improve air quality. Good examples that we have already include the introduction of the Glider and the associated bus prioritisation. It is a good example of where punctuality and reliability of services have improved, and passenger journeys have increased on those routes.

The full entry into operation of Belfast Grand Central station during September and October 2024 has also seen a substantial growth in passenger numbers. In all, an additional 600,000 passenger journeys were made between October 2024 and December 2024 with the opening of Belfast Grand Central station. That represents an over 10% increase in bus and rail patronage compared with figures for the same period in previous years. The public realm work that is under way to make the station more accessible, create a sustainable and attractive streetscape, and improve connectivity for everyone will support further growth. It will also create Saltwater Square, a new public place at the heart of Belfast Grand Central station.

Before I finish, I take the opportunity to thank all the agencies that were involved in dealing with the significant damage that was caused by Storm Éowyn over the weekend, including the Translink staff who worked all weekend to restore the public transport network. I am pleased to say that all our services were operational on Monday morning, albeit that there is still significant damage that will need to be repaired over time. Thank you, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. At the start of the meeting, we placed on record our thanks to front-line staff. Indeed, it was a difficult time for Translink workers, given what they had to deal with, and for people who were trying to get around as things got back up and going.

I have to say that I was a little shocked when I saw the written evidence from Translink, given the significant spotlight that is on the Boyne Bridge. Whilst I recognise what the outcomes of the public realm works will be, and you have articulated them, there is an awful lot of public dissatisfaction about what has happened with the Boyne Bridge. I would like to know about the planning permission. Why was work on the bridge stalled for a period? What exactly went on between Translink and the Department on the planning conditions there? Do you want to take that first?

Mr Conway: OK. There are quite complex phases of construction as we go through the construction of Grand Central station and the public realm works. We had provided all the information and complied with all that was required of us to discharge the conditions relating not only to the Boyne Bridge but to the wider phase 2 construction of that area. On that basis, the dismantling of the bridge began. In normal times, it would take a couple of days, but the Department got in touch with us to say that it would need more time to go through all the information that had been provided. It asked us to pause the demolition until it had taken time to do that. That was completed last week, so it took a little time. Of course, Christmas was during that period as well. It took about four additional weeks. Those conditions were discharged last week, and the demolition continued. We are looking at the overall programme of works to see whether we can absorb that four weeks of pause in the overall programme. We still have a bit more work to do on that, but we hope to do that so that there is no detriment to the overall programme and timescales to, for example, make the road accessible again.

We had always said in the planning application and the consultations that the programme of work would take about 12 months. As I said, we intend to stick to that, but we will also look to see whether we can get the roadway open sooner than that.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): There were phases of work. Correct?

Mr Conway: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): To clarify, confirm and have it on the record, did you start another phase of work when you were not supposed to?

Mr Conway: We started it on the basis that we had provided all the information to DFI and the consultees.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): The Department had signed it off.

Mr Conway: The Department normally has an administrative process that takes 24 hours or a couple of days to do. We started on the basis that that process was progressing. The Department then said that it wanted more time. We had been working closely with the Department throughout the project, because there were a lot of complex phases to it. Phases that are originally in planning conditions sometimes get slightly out of sequence because of how construction work is done. There is therefore a need to work closely with the planners in such circumstances. There was a delay in communication between us and the Department, and that led to our having to pause the work until it was fully satisfied with everything.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You therefore started work that had not been signed off.

Mr Conway: We believed that it was in the process of being signed off. That is when we started the work, but the Department decided that it needed more time.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Are you and DFI content with everything now? I understand that a traffic management plan was part of the problem, or was it?

Mr Conway: It is very complex. There is a range of conditions in there for the sustainable transport plan, the design of the public realm and other issues. The work is planned in phases, and each phase has a number of conditions attached to it. As I said, sometimes the construction phases will get slightly out of sequence with what was determined at the planning stage in 2019. That is why we work closely with the planners. The project, however, was complex, given the overall design of the public realm, so a number of issues arose.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You had a consultation.

Mr Conway: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): When the hub opened and the bridge work was happening, was there further consultation or engagement with the likes of businesses? We have heard publicly about the difficulties that Sandy Row businesses are facing as a result of the road closures. Have you had any further engagement with businesses there and explained to them what has been happening with the bridge?

Mr Conway: There has been ongoing engagement. Planning was approved in 2019. In the intervening period, there has been ongoing engagement about what was to happen. Businesses knew that the road would be closed for a period and were aware of how we planned to manage that. It is an Executive flagship project, so we have agreed with Executive colleagues to set up a group, which the Department for Communities will do, to look at how we can support businesses during the closure phase and at how they can benefit from the wider public realm scheme once it is open.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Businesses have asked for compensation, about which there has been local commentary. Will the group look at that? Will Translink look at it as well?

Mr Conway: Although compensation is one of the things that has been asked for, the group intends to look at how we can best support businesses through the period. I am sure that the compensation question will come up, but there are other ways in which to support businesses. Everyone recognises that we can support them by making sure that their footfall returns to normal as quickly as possible and that they can benefit from the wider regeneration of the area.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. I will move on to capacity and some of the wider traffic issues.

Around Christmastime, the messaging from the Department was for people to get on public transport, and, as a result, we saw your passenger numbers increase. A problem seemed to arise in Belfast with the frequency of services and cancellations in the city centre around that time. I represent Fermanagh and South Tyrone. The 261 service, which is a main service from the area to Belfast, was often at capacity. People were being told that there were no more seats on the last bus, meaning that they perhaps had to pay for a taxi. There was also uncertainty over whether buses would go on time, when people needed it, yet the messaging from the Department was for people to get on public transport. What specific issues caused delays? Is there a capacity issue with the number of buses in the fleet? We know that a number of buses were taken out of service in the run-up to Christmas, perhaps because they had broken down or had been involved in road traffic incidents. What caused the issues with the frequency of services and capacity?

Mr Conway: I will deal with question that in two parts. The first relates to Belfast itself. There was no issue with capacity as such. We had an issue with bus prioritisation around the city. Alongside DFI and Belfast City Council, we want to look at how we might improve bus prioritisation at peak times. Issues arose mostly between 4.00 pm and 6.00 pm, when we had peak-time challenges, with schools getting out and commuters getting home from work. At most other times of the day, capacity operated well. We have had that issue in Belfast for a number of years. Since COVID, the challenge has started to get greater again. We need to address it in order to make sure that bus services are prioritised at the right level around the city. Some of the congestion had an impact on inter-urban Goldline services. That happened at peak times and, as you said, Chair, perhaps late on a Friday night for the last bus. We were trying to ensure that we had enough capacity to provide that service. Congestion typically happens at specific times of the day.

We did not have any issue with bus availability because of breakdowns or anything like that. We would like to increase the frequency of such services and the capacity that is available on our bus network more generally. We have to make sure, however, that that capacity will be utilised all year round so that it represents value for money. We cannot just create a lot of capacity for one time of the year and then have it dissipate it after, so we have to be careful about how we do it. We would, however, like to see more investment in frequency of service and in our bus and rail network itself.

The issues that you cited, Chair, are specific to particular times of day and to particular occasions. From that, we have learnt how we can provide some spare capacity at peak times, particularly when events are on and in the lead-up to Christmas.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): One caveat that I will apply — Committee members will not be surprised to hear me say this — is that you do not forget about rural connections.

Mr Conway: Absolutely.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): It is really important for people to have a complete transport network.

What modelling have you done to assess whether the increase in the number of journeys being taken is down to people coming to see Grand Central station? Do you think that those passenger numbers will be sustained? What impact has the increase in passenger numbers had on Tranlink's income?

Mr Conway: It is probably a wee bit too early to give you a lot of detail on that, Chair. We believe that some of it is down to modal shift. I said that there has been about a 10% increase in public transport use, but the modal shift is probably at about 1% or 2%. We would need to see an increase of a lot more than that if we are to deliver the 20% modal shift that we need to see, particularly in a place such as Belfast.

It is a good sign, however, that people are being encouraged to use public transport, and greater accessibility at Belfast Grand Central station will hopefully improve usage. Grand Central station is not a one-year thing. It represents an investment in public transport infrastructure capacity for the next few decades, and we need to see investment increase over time so that we can encourage more and more people to use public transport. We will have benefited from some increased passenger fare revenue since its opening, but it is too early for me to say by how much.

Mr Stewart: Thank you very much for coming along today, gentlemen, and for your evidence so far. I also place on record my thanks to your staff for their work and to Translink for its communications over what was a difficult weekend.

The Chair adequately covered some of the stuff about the Boyne Bridge, but I will dive into it a little bit further. What was the rationale behind the delay in departmental sign-off during the period of ambiguity, for want of a better word? Chris, you said that the administrative process normally takes 24 hours to 48 hours but that sign-off had not come through in that time. Presumably, the Department was assessing the planned phase of work in more detail. Did you say that it was to do with traffic, or was it to do with a multitude of issues?

Mr Conway: You would have to ask DFI Planning for the detail on that.

Mr Stewart: It did not come back with detail on that.

Mr Conway: The Department had a few queries and thus wanted look at some things in a bit more detail. As I said, the phases of construction are complex, so it was not just about the Boyne Bridge. A number of conditions are attached to that particular phase — six conditions, I think — and not all relate to the Boyne Bridge. They relate to wider things as well.

Mr Stewart: Is the Boyne Bridge integral to a couple of phases? Does the work on it lead on to another phase? Can some of the phases be done simultaneously, if that makes sense, or does the work on the Boyne Bridge have to happen before another phase can start?

Mr Conway: The overall phase is the next 12 months of work.

Mr Stewart: I appreciate that. That is good to know.

I will move on to the public engagement piece. Everyone obviously wants to have good relationships with their neighbours. The Sandy Row community is an immediate neighbour. As the Chair said, it is incredibly important that we support the businesses and the community there to survive through the period. You have talked about the engagement that is happening. It is essential that we find rate relief and some grant support for the businesses affected. What is being done by Translink to continue engagement with the community? You talked about the engagement that has been going on since 2019. What is being done to build community relations?

Mr Conway: We are actively working on it now. Hopefully, the group that I mentioned will be set up quickly. We want it to engage with businesses and the community, to look at some of the lessons that have been learnt in recent weeks and months and to look at how we move forward. We all want to look forward now and say, "As we work towards creating the new public realm, how will people benefit from it? How do we make sure that the accessibility that, we think, will be improved into Sandy Row materialises? How do we get the businesses supported?". All those things will be looked at. We will therefore be engaging with the community and with businesses.

Mr Stewart: You said that, as far as you are concerned, the Department for Infrastructure and DFI Planning are completely content, at this stage, to proceed as planned.

Mr Conway: Yes.

Mr Stewart: If there were a sea change in attitude for any reason that had an impact on any particular one of the phases, including, for example, the Boyne Bridge no longer being in play, what impact would that have on the entire scheme?

Mr Conway: I am not sure. The conditions have now been discharged, and planning has been approved. We are effectively implementing the conditions now. Consultation is more about communicating what we are doing and the different phases. It is important to note that the public realm includes not just Durham Street but Hope Street and the junction at Grosvenor Road out on to Great Victoria Street. We want to engage with the community on all the phases of that construction work and make sure that we work to minimise any disruption. It is a complex piece of infrastructure that has to be developed for the whole area.

Mr Stewart: Undoubtedly. I will move on to the congestion. The Chair previously referred to some of the chaotic scenes that we have seen. We know that Belfast is a congested city as it is — [Inaudible.]

Mr Stewart: — but anyone who was sitting in traffic many nights in a row could not help but be incredibly frustrated. What challenges have there been in working with other agencies as you try to manage that traffic under the gross weight of the infrastructure projects? Chris, you touched on the difficulties for buses between 4.00 pm and 6.00 pm. Are you working with other agencies to come up with creative solutions at Christmas and over the next year?

Mr Conway: We have to realise that private car usage continues to grow. The number of licensed vehicles has grown by 18% since 2015. Given that we have finite road space in Northern Ireland, particularly in our cities — not just Belfast — that is not a sustainable way forward.

There are a number of measures required. It is more of a political issue than one for me, but, demand-management measures are certainly required. Other cities are already adopting demand-management measures to try to reduce the number of private vehicles coming into them. Investment in enhancing public transport is also required. Our view is that we need to invest more in our public transport network. I used the Glider scheme as an example earlier. The north-south Glider route would be one opportunity for Belfast. Although bus prioritisation sometimes reduces road space, it helps ensure that public transport is continuous and can access the city no matter what the situation with general traffic is.

It is important to encourage people to use our rail network and our Goldline network, which is not just about Belfast. The Goldline service connects rural areas to Belfast. Being able to use good, convenient park-and-ride facilities is also important. It is therefore about investment in the network as well as in buses, trains and suchlike. We hope that Belfast Grand Central station represents the beginning of the investment that is needed in infrastructure.

Mr Stewart: It is undoubtedly a wonderful flagship project. The fact that numbers have increased is a testament to that. When the numbers increased, however, we saw for our rail service, particularly the Larne line, which serves the patch that I represent, that three carriages invariably were not enough. Is there the bandwidth in the system to put on four, five or six carriages on those lines when pressure points are hit? On the nights that I was on the train, it was quite uncomfortable, and other people have given me feedback.

Mr Conway: Look, trains are expensive. We therefore have to manage demand throughout the year against our capacity. That leads to challenges when we experience peaks, because the question is this: how do we manage peak times? Trains can sometimes feel more congested at peak times, but it is quite safe to have people sitting and standing on trains.

That having been said, we have the New Trains 4 programme. We have invested in 21 new carriages in the past few years. For that programme, we are currently going through the economic appraisal phase, which will hopefully allow us to buy a new rail fleet. It will take a number of years for that fleet to come on board, however, so we will need to continue to manage demand until then, as doing so is important. Ideally, had we had enough capital to invest all at the same time, we could invest in all the things that we need, but, instead, we have to do so in phases. We needed to open up the network through what we have done at Grand Central station. We now need to invest in the fleet. That will happen at a later stage. We still have ample capacity at lots of times during the day and during the week, but there will always be challenges at peak times.

Mr Stewart: Absolutely. I have a final question to ask, if I may, Chair. I appreciate that we talking about public transport, but people sometimes need to use taxis. A few people have said to me about the need for a taxi rank at Grand Central station. Has that happened yet? Is it in the pipeline? People who use public transport to get there and then cannot get an onward bus connection may be carrying luggage, and that is not always ideal. Will there be a taxi service running from Grand Central station?

Mr Conway: We have opened up a temporary access road on to Glengall Street.

Mr Stewart: For that reason?

Mr Conway: For that reason. Taxis can now park on Glengall Street and drop people off there. That is a temporary space. There will be a drop-off zone when the full public realm work has been done.

Mr Stewart: Once that work is finished.

Mr Conway: Yes, once it is finished, but taxis can drop people off at Glengall Street now.

Mr Baker: Thank you for coming to the Committee. Friday's storm was a timely reminder of why we need to invest in public transport and in decarbonisation. You said that more investment is needed in sustainable travel solutions. What are the most feasible solutions for us?

Mr Conway: In the short term, the most feasible thing to do is to look at bus prioritisation around the city. Doing that will also support active travel by those who use bicycles through providing access to bus lanes. That will immediately benefit public transport and active travel. In the medium to longer term, we will need to look at Glider phase 2, which is the north-south Glider route, and at the route that extends the existing G2 route. The extension will go up to Queen's University and round there. We need to implement a number of short-term measures, but all of them will require policy changes and legislation. It will take time for the Department to work through them. We need to have some of those consultations now so that some of the decisions can be taken and some of the measures implemented by December 2025.

Mr Baker: That leads me on to my next question, which concerns bus lanes in the city centre. Possible changes to them would involve consideration of future-proofing our city for pedestrianisation. Is that work going hand in hand?

Mr Conway: Some of the pedestrianisation measures are probably more associated with the Belfast city transport plan, which, again, goes a wee bit further out. I understand that the Department is starting to consult on that. We will definitely all have to work together on how we can combine buses, active travel and pedestrianisation measures.

Mr Baker: My final point is more about the operational side of phase 2 of the Glider. I am lucky to have the Glider in the constituency that I represent. It is very successful. It is not without its problems, however, when it comes to trying to encourage people to use public transport. A problem arises at the Colin Connect transport hub with smaller buses that are going into the community after the Glider drops people off. More information needs to be provided. Our young ones are good at using the Glider, but the older generation maybe not. The Glider might take five minutes, but, if people miss their connection at the Colin Connect, they might then be waiting 30 or 40 minutes, depending on the time of day, to get a shuttle bus. That needs to be looked at. Moreover, if Translink removes a service to, say, the Glen Road or Turf Lodge from an area of the Colin for people who are not going into the city centre, that creates gaps. I get it that congestion on the Glen Road can play a big part in that, but if we are trying to encourage people to use public transport, that has a knock-on effect, because they will revert to using their car.

Mr Conway: I will ask Ian to comment. I know that some work is being done on that.

Mr Ian Campbell (Translink): There is, but I am happy to pick on that up with you offline and talk you through what we are looking at doing.

Mr Baker: To be fair to the team, I do check in with you. There is a need for an education piece.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you, guys, for coming in. I have three questions. Public transport works best to reduce congestion when it is accessible and affordable. I made some posts on social media recently, without even considering the conversation that we were going to have today. A recurring theme was affordability. Have bus fares been looked at in recent times? How might you try to reduce the cost of using public transport?

Mr Conway: There is a double-edged answer to that. First, fares are a matter for the Department to regulate, so anything to do with fares is for the Minister to decide. That having been said, for our urban services in Belfast, for example, people can buy a day ticket for £4 and travel all day for that. That is very competitive with prices in any other city in the UK or in Ireland. Our rail fares are extremely competitive compared with typical fares across the UK. In the Republic of Ireland, however, there has been a 20% discount on fares, and that has led to a change in how our fares compare with its. Fares have a role to play, but I do not think that a single issue is the problem, because punctual, reliable and accessible public transport is still needed. Some other cities have tried offering big fare discounts but have not necessarily got the response that they were hoping for.

In our cities in particular, car parking is very cheap. Rather than how our fares compare with other cities', that is where the competition is. It is about how public transport use compares with private car use. Lots of factors therefore have to be taken into account by the Department, but, overall, we encourage anything that supports more people using public transport. As you know, funding has been a real challenge for us. If there were to be any reduction in fares, Translink would need to be compensated through receiving additional funding. The Department would have to consider that.

Mr McReynolds: Another recurring theme was that public transport needs to be something on which people can rely. The Minister said on Monday during Question Time that he considers taxis to be public transport. What do you make of that assessment? Did the introduction of more taxis into some bus lanes in Belfast city centre have an impact on buses' journey times?

Mr Conway: Taxis play an important role in supporting public transport — that is how I would put it — particularly when you look at the night-time economy going into the early hours. They play a role at other times of the day as well, so they are an important transport solution in any city. We would like to continue to work with the main taxi operators in Belfast to make sure that we complement each other. We have been doing that, particularly when it comes to the night-time economy.

I will not comment too much on the issue of taxis in bus lanes. I have concerns about that, but I understand why the Minister had to make that decision when he did. It only affects a small number of bus lanes around Grand Central station and, at this point, we have not seen a big impact. The pilot needs to continue for a period of time before we can assess whether there has been a positive or negative impact. I know that cyclists are concerned about it from a safety perspective, because they also use the bus lanes. Our view is to wait and see how it works out.

Mr McReynolds: I have just realised that the cheerleaders for the Glider are sitting beside each other. I did not realise that, Danny. I am an East Belfast MLA and a big supporter of the Glider.

Mr Boylan: The rest of us can leave the meeting now. [Laughter.]

Mr McReynolds: I am aware that money to make minor changes to the introduction of Belfast Rapid Transit phase 2 (BRT2) had to be given back to the Department. Are you confident that we will be able to get BRT2 introduced? The initial date for its introduction was 2030. What is your assessment of BRT2?

Mr Conway: The first thing that I would like to do is to get the project launched. Like everything, you have to get it launched before you can define the timescales. There are a couple of phases to it, including the extension of the G2 route to Queen's University and back round again, which could be done earlier. The north/south connection will be done in phases as well. We need to get it launched so that we can work together to see what the timescales might be for introducing phases.

Mr McReynolds: Do you have an indicative timescale for its launch?

Mr Conway: The launch is a matter for the Department and the Minister.

Mr McReynolds: OK, that is fine.

Mr McMurray: Thank you, gentlemen, for coming along, and thank you for the service. I want to give a shout out to the 215 Goldline service to and from Downpatrick, which I get every Wednesday. [Laughter.]

I just wanted to say that; it is very useful.

I am going to be parochial about this.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Not too parochial.

Mr McMurray: It is referenced in the papers that the Newcastle and Downpatrick services still go from Adelaide Street. The evidence states that those services have been relocated, but I do not remember them ever going from the Europa bus station. What is the craic with that? That is a matter that has been raised. People who have flown into Belfast and got the bus to Grand Central, such as offshore oil workers, are having difficulty in lugging their luggage to Adelaide Street for their bus connections. Is there an update on that?

Mr Campbell: We are operating a lot of our Ulsterbus and railway services out of Belfast Grand Central, but it is fair to say that we are still in transition, with the ongoing public realm work and with contractors having movements on-site. The site is not yet at full capacity, so the plan is that when capacity becomes available, the Ulsterbus services that are operating out of Laganside and Adelaide Street will relocate to Grand Central. We recognise that, as Chris said earlier, one of the big opportunities for us in building the service will be from the connectivity that you can get in one location. The straight answer to your question is that the starting point for the 215 service will relocate from Adelaide Street later this year.

Mr Conway: Just to be clear, those services will still operate out of Adelaide Street, but they will start at Grand Central station. At the moment, they start at Adelaide Street.

Mr McMurray: It is busy there, so it is not ideal. The correspondence section of the papers mentions some of the night-time services for which there is pilot scheme. Will that be extended to other towns across the country? I know that it was well received in south Down, although, like all these things, there could have been a bit more publicity or maybe one or two more connections here and there. Again, given the increase in numbers, it seems like a good job because we want to get more people on the buses.

Mr Campbell: We ran the pilot, as you said, for Ulsterbus, Metro, and Northern Ireland Railways three weeks before Christmas. An extra 17,000 people availed of the dedicated night services. We were very encouraged by that. We have put a business case into the Department. Our view is that the funding required to deliver an all-year-round service is modest, but there is still a funding gap there. We are keen to continue with the night services: we can see that there is a market there and that it is one that you will build if you can guarantee those services every week of the year. We can see the benefits, not only for Belfast but for places around the Province. It is fair to say that we have been able to modify our railway timetables, so there will be later services continuing beyond Christmas on a Friday and Saturday night. We would like to see that model rolled out across Metro and Ulsterbus.

Mr McMurray: I just have one more, Chair, and it touches on what Danny raised and what you alluded to, Mr Conway. Buses are great: they are sustainable and they take traffic off the roads. Active travel is also great for the same reason, but how do you connect it with the buses? As a case in point, I have a wee foldable bike similar to the one that was in the DFI advert that went out before Christmas, but it is not practical for everybody. I am lucky in that regard, but there are solutions out there. Are there any pilots in the pipeline to connect the buses to the active travel routes for people who may be looking to go from Belfast, or even from outside Belfast, into Belfast?

Mr Conway: We have done a number of reviews and worked closely with Sustrans on that. One of the areas, for example, is how we get better connectivity between cycling and park-and-rides so that people can use them to get on the bus. John, we were talking about that yesterday. Do you want to come in on some of the plans for that?

Mr John Glass (Translink): There is a large number of park-and-rides across the bus and rail networks, particularly the bus network. That is an area that needs further investment to grow. If the park-and-ride is closer to you, you can use active travel quite easily.

Mr McMurray: I am thinking more about the other end of the journey, if that makes sense. I may not have been clear: I have a foldable bike and have no problem getting that on the bus. However, that is a bespoke way of doing it. Not everybody will outlay the amount that is required to buy a foldable bike, but there are people who have a standard bikes and want to jump on the bus in Downpatrick.

Mr Conway: We want to work on that closely with other providers — for example, Belfast Bikes — so that there is good accessibility. Certainly, there is a plan for a Belfast Bike station at Grand Central station so that you will be able to get off the train and use Belfast Bikes. On our app, we have also included bike journeys, so you can include a bike journey as part of your journey when you are planning a journey on our app. Ideally, we will get to the point where you can book Belfast Bikes on our app. We are talking to Belfast Bikes about that. There are schemes and ideas. Brompton has suggested to us that it might do some bike rentals at the end of some of our stations, which is an opportunity that we would like to pursue. There are a number of ideas, but they are very much ideas at the minute: we are looking at how we can take them forward.

Mr K Buchanan: Thanks, gentlemen, for coming along. I have a couple of questions. I want to go back to Sandy Row. You referred to ongoing communications from 2019 or thereabouts. I am going to talk about businesses, first of all. When you communicate with a business, what method do you use? When last did you communicate with the businesses in Sandy Row, and how and in which forum are you reaching out to them?

Mr Glass: We have a full-time community representative that works in that project. That person — sometimes it is more than one person — is actively involved with the people in the community and its key representatives. Over the next period of time, the working group that DFC is setting up has to become more important to all of us. How do we help those businesses with advice and how do we start to support them more? Even regarding the workers at Grand Central, how do we divert footfall to Sandy Row businesses? That communication has been ongoing, it is ongoing, and, through that DFC group, we have to enhance it even further through simple business advice on how we can better connect with Sandy Row.

Mr K Buchanan: Is that individual a Translink employee?

Mr Glass: Yes.

Mr K Buchanan: How are they communicating with businesses? Are they knocking on their doors? Are they holding public meetings? Focus on businesses; we will come back to the community in a minute. How are they communicating with businesses today, and how did they communicate with them last week, a month ago and six months ago?

Mr Glass: It has been through a combination of public meetings and chatting to those business owners regularly. That person is a Translink employee. It is about updating businesses on the stages of the project.

Mr K Buchanan: Is that Translink employee getting any flack, to be blunt, from businesses?

Mr Conway: Oh, yes. A learning point from this is that you can communicate, but whether people hear what you are communicating is a different issue. I am not sure that everyone fully understood the impact of some of the things that were communicated. We have to do a better job in that respect. We understand that that is an area for improvement. Some businesses were fully aware of what was happening. Some businesses did not realise the impact that it was going to have. However, the road closure had been on the cards since planning permission was awarded in 2019. It is about everyone understanding the impact of that.

Mr K Buchanan: Is the individual who is doing the business outreach the same individual who is doing the community outreach?

Mr Glass: They are involved in that as well. As I said, it is not just one person; up to two people could be doing that.

Mr K Buchanan: How does that person define "community"? Do you know what I mean by that? How are they reaching out to the community, and in what forum? Is it by public meeting? How are they doing that? How are they getting to the doors?

Mr Glass: That probably started at the planning stage, when the requirement to communicate, and who to speak to, was set out in planning rules. That is how that all started. As you start to build those relationships over time, you may extend that a bit further. That is the approach that we have applied to the Sandy Row and Grosvenor Road areas: we have been careful to reach out to all areas.

Mr Conway: There are two very specific groups in Sandy Row: the Sandy Row Community Forum and the Greater Village Regeneration Trust. There is a similar group in the Grosvenor Road area. Those groups are very localised. They have been the primary routes for communication, along with political representatives and others. The Orange Order in Sandy Row is also involved and we have worked with schools, so the communication has been built up through a patchwork quilt of different representatives.

Mr Glass: We have been running skills academies in those local areas to help young people apply for a job with the builders and to get other employment. That has been done in conjunction with Belfast City Council.

Mr K Buchanan: What can Translink do, given the impact — I am not saying that you have caused it — that the bridge's coming down has had, and will have, on Sandy Row, to help that community to thrive? There will be a period of pain, but that is OK to a degree if there will be green shoots. How are you going to water those green shoots, and, indeed, plant the seeds for some of them? What can Translink do to support that community?

Mr Conway: We have agreed, as part of the planning submission, that when the public realm is done in Saltwater Square, we will extend it right up into Sandy Row. When you come out of the station, the same public realm will take you up to Sandy Row. We agreed to do that up as far as Gilpins. My understanding — I have to get confirmation on this — is that DFC has agreed to continue the rest of that for the whole of Sandy Row, so, working together, we will do the public realm all the way up. That public realm is paving, stones, lighting, seating and everything else. We will really enhance the public realm so that, as you come out of the station, you will feel as though you are still walking through the same public realm when you are in Sandy Row.

We can work with the businesses on how we support them to benefit from that footfall, and on how we can continue to attract footfall to those areas. Sandy Row used to be a natural footfall route. Footfall has declined over the years for lots of reasons. We hope that it will come back when we get the new public realm opened, because any natural barriers will have been removed at that point and it will be a natural access point.

Those are the types of things that we would like to work with businesses on to see how we can attract greater footfall into the area, and revive Sandy Row.

Mr K Buchanan: I have just one quick question. I want to talk briefly about buses and trains with regard to first aid. Are the drivers on trains and buses first-aid trained? I know that there are defibrillators on train platforms and in bus stations, but are there any on trains and buses?

Mr Campbell: There is an element of first aid training, but it is very basic and is about what drivers should do in an emergency. With regard to defibrillators, I do not have the figures with me, but we have conducted an extensive roll-out and all our major facilities across the bus and rail network now have defibrillators.

We have provided open training for all Translink staff. We have videos available via the staff portal, and first aid is included in a number of areas of our training. We have an extensive network of defibrillators. Those are available to the public in a number of our facilities because we are part of the national defibrillator network. We have 1,400 buses and it is not practical to fit defibrillators to each of those vehicles. However, we are undertaking a feasibility study on the fitting of defibrillators in our rolling stock of trains because they typically cover much longer distances. That is not funded, but it is something that we would take through our normal capital planning process.

Mr K Buchanan: If somebody took ill on a train, what would happen?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Keith, I am giving you a lot of latitude.

Mr K Buchanan: The Chair is overruling me.

Mr Conway: We have to be careful when we discuss this issue because the defibrillators that we currently have are part of the national network. When you phone 999, you are directed you to one, although it might not be to the one right beside you. When you have defibrillators on a mobile network, it is much more difficult. Not many train companies have defibrillators on their mobile networks. The industry has to look at that and decide on the best approach, and we will work with it on that.

Mr Boylan: I am sorely tempted to pick up on something that Keith said, but I had better not.

My question is for those who travelled into the city, especially in December, and saw the disruption. Chris, you mentioned communication. What lessons were learned, particularly about encouraging people onto public transport? As a person from a rural area, I need a car to travel before I can access public transport. Generally, what lessons have been learned and how will you apply them?

Mr Conway: Overall, the lesson learned was that the issue is complex and requires a cross-agency approach. If we look at what happened with Storm Éowyn over the weekend, there was a cross-agency approach. Whilst there are lessons to be learned from that, the approach was quite successful given how quickly we were able to get services restored in most areas. Congestion is a cross-agency issue. We need ourselves, DFI, the PSNI, the council and other stakeholders to work closely on it, but we need to plan. We know that Christmas 2025 is coming, so we need to be planning for that now, and ask, "What were the things that worked well in December 2024 that we need to extend?", and get those things prepared now so that we are ready for that. Also, we have some big events coming over the summer. We have the Open golf tournament coming in July, and other events in the summer that lead to quite challenging periods in terms of busyness around the city and other parts of Northern Ireland. Sometimes, we have big football or Gaelic matches, which can also cause congestion.

We need to start recognising that congestion is an issue and that addressing it requires forward planning. As I said, with an 18% increase in licensed vehicles, the issue is not going to go away, so we need to start planning for the future. That is the best way that I can answer that question at a high level. Then, you get into specific interventions that need to be advanced to make that happen.

Mr Durkan: Thanks to Chris and his team for coming in. Chris, I also thank your staff for their ongoing efforts through adverse weather and all year round. Others have touched on this, but I am sure that the bad publicity about Grand Central station and the combination of factors that led to the traffic in and around Belfast city centre was disappointing for you. However, there is the old adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity. In the longer term, might some of the messaging that had to go out at that time bear fruit as part of a modal shift to public transport?

Mr Conway: One area in which I hope it will have an impact is finance. We saw the reaction in the media and elsewhere, with people saying that there needs to be investment in public transport. We need to have the budget to be able to do that, and I hope that, as you said, the silver lining will be that we get those finances. That is my hope.

Mr Durkan: We all want to see that investment. As individual MLAs and members of the public, we want to see more investment in services. I will not let pass the opportunity to ask you whether there is any intention to increase the Sunday train service between Derry and Belfast. We want to see more investment in not only services but structures. While we have that great big shiny new station in Belfast, there are, it is fair to say, some fairly run-down and ramshackle facilities elsewhere across the North.

While we want to see the investment that you referenced, as one of my Committee colleagues mentioned, affordable fares are important. We see in the Finance Minister's Budget sustainability plan for next year that she has gone for low-hanging fruit, and one of the ways in which she is going to raise some of the £109 million that is needed is increase public transport fares. That almost takes the decision out of your hands, but we know that it will be Translink in the firing line when an announcement is made on that increase. It is not a great sign of the Executive's aspiration to invest more that they are looking at Translink fares as an opportunity to raise money.

You may want to come back on those questions together. I will follow up with a question on a separate issue, an incident, that I wrote to you about, Chris. I received a response from Translink on Monday, which I appreciate. There is some media coverage of the incident today. Books were left in a shared space in a staff canteen, and the obvious intent was to antagonise and offend. I would be equally annoyed if the offensive items were of a different —.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Mark, we need to be careful about what we are discussing today. We are potentially straying into localised issues.

Mr Durkan: This is not a localised issue, Chair.

Mr Conway: Mark, I understand the issue. If that is the last point, I can answer it.

Mr Durkan: It is an important issue. I have received a response that says that action has been taken to prevent a recurrence. What is that action? Has there been an investigation? Has anyone been reprimanded? It goes far beyond banter, and any tolerance of such attitudes in the workplace will not do much for staff relations or morale or for Translink's public image.

Mr Conway: I will answer the last question first and then move on to the more strategic ones. First, we are fully committed to having a working environment in which all employees are treated with respect and dignity. We should not jump to conclusions on the intention in the case you referenced. We need to investigate how that incident occurred, and we will do that. We have a full policy on dignity at work, and that will be adhered to. We will investigate the incident and follow up with any appropriate action, but I do not want to jump to conclusions. Mark, you have jumped to a conclusion: we need to do the investigation first and then decide on where to go from there.

We do not have any run-down and ramshackle facilities, so I would like to challenge that point a little. In fact, we have a nice station in Derry/Londonderry: it is a lovely restored station, and it has helped our capacity.

With climate change, we need to invest in public transport. As I said, fares are one part of that. They are not a silver bullet, but we certainly need to make sure that fares are proportionate. There are other areas, as you would expect me to say, in which revenue could be generated to encourage people to use public transport. I have mentioned car parking in other areas that could be looked at or other charging schemes and demand management measures that could also bring in revenue. If we are thinking about climate change, we should really be looking at those areas. Those are policy decisions for the Department and the Executive that I encourage them to look at.

Mr Durkan: Thank you, Chris. It was not the north-west transport hub that I was thinking of; it was more the depot at —.

Mr Boylan: Do not dig any deeper, Mark.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you. That is all that I have on my list but I want to go back to something to try and get clarity on it and nail it down. There is a school of thought that says that the Boyne Bridge did not need to be demolished. I want to get your thoughts on the rationale for its demolition and why people could not, for example, walk underneath it.

Mr Conway: The planning application was submitted back in 2018-19. It would take a long time to go through the rationale today, but I will cover the highlights of the discussions that there were on whether the bridge should remain or be demolished to create the new public realm. All of those discussions were had, both at Belfast City Council level and the Department for Infrastructure level, and at all of the consultations. All of the different options were heard at that time. The planning application, which included the demolishing of the bridge as part of the new public realm, was accepted by DFI and fully endorsed by Belfast City Council. All of the arguments were heard at that time, and it would be hard for us to go through all of that detail here.

However, the new public realm brings many benefits through improved connectivity to Sandy Row. For example, as I mentioned, the public realm will extend into Sandy Row. People will be able to come out of the station and go to the Queen's Quarter or Belfast City Hospital directly up Sandy Row. We hope that that will reinstate Sandy Row as an important pedestrian link, north and south.

Demolishing the bridge also has many benefits for accessibility. It improves station accessibility for people with different access needs, including pedestrians, cyclists and people with disabilities. It also has many operational benefits. For example, buses can access the front of the station in and out of Durham Street, or Boyne Bridge Place, as it will be called. Buses will be able to come out there and access Great Victoria Street at the front of the station, whereas that would not be possible if the bridge was there. Those are some of the reasons, but, as I said, the issue was discussed at length during the planning process and fully endorsed by the council and DFI Planning at the time.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. We are significantly over time, but on the issue of fares the point that we need to give people an option is a valid one. If we are talking about a modal shift, it is important that we have that proper option in place for people. You have heard me say many times — I will say it again — that if I travelled to Stormont on public transport, the round trip would take me five hours and cost me over £20. As you know, I would love to commute on public transport — I would love to see trains in Fermanagh — but giving people the option is key. Certainly, as a Committee, that is something that we will continue to consider.

Mr Conway: Not to rebut too much of that, but we recognise that, for everyone, particularly in rural areas, an end-to-end journey on public transport may not always be the solution. Getting to a park-and-ride or some other point may be the best solution. Having that integration and making it work for people is important too. We recognise that the end-to-end journey on public transport is not always the solution. We have to find ways to integrate with other modes.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Yes. Thank you for coming up to the Committee today. We appreciate your time.