Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Tá fáilte romhaibh uilig.

I welcome Gordon Lyons, Minister for Communities; and, from the Department, Mark O'Donnell, deputy secretary, housing and sustainability group; Paddy Rooney, deputy secretary, work and health group; and Emer Morelli, deputy secretary of the engaged communities group.

Minister, given that time is limited, I propose to move straight to questions from members, if you are content. Members can indicate if they wish to come in on issues. It is a certainly a busy Department, and there are a lot of issues to cover. I ask members and the panel to try to accommodate that pressure. We will try to move through the issues as succinctly, effectively and efficiently as we can.

Minister, I want to focus, first, on the anti-poverty strategy. We have focused on that and are very interested in it. There was an indication that a strategy would go out to consultation before the end of the financial year and that a final draft would be with the Executive. Can you update us on whether the Executive have received a final draft of that important strategy?

Mr Lyons (The Minister for Communities): The commitment that I have made is that the paper will go to the Executive before the end of the financial year, and I am sticking to that commitment. We all know how long this has been going on: it has been a commitment since 1998. I am pleased that we have been able to make progress in the past year. I made this a priority when I came into office and said that I wanted to see progress on it as quickly as possible. I think that the approach that I have taken is the right one. I do not want to just lay a strategy in front of the Executive and ask them to sign up to it. We established the cross-departmental working group. Ministers nominated representatives to sit on that group so that we could get input from them. We have a draft strategy, and Ministers are coming back with individual actions that, they think, they can take on. Those have been collated, and there will be a little bit of reviewing to do of them, but we are still in line to take that to the Executive before the end of the financial year.

I reassure members, first, of my commitment to getting this done and, secondly, that I want to make sure that we have a strategy in place that makes a difference. I want to make sure that it is realistic and deliverable and has measurable targets, because those are all important. I know that the issue is important to the Committee and to many stakeholders, and you can be assured that I am doing everything that I can, as Minister, to progress it.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. Thanks, Minister. I welcome that commitment. There is certainly a keen interest in seeing it progressed.

You will probably be aware, Minister, that the anti-poverty sector is becoming increasingly concerned about the content of the strategy. There is a fear that it may take a less ambitious approach than was in the draft. Can you confirm whether any sections have been removed from what was presented as a draft? If so, in the version that you are working on now, what sections were removed?

Mr Lyons: I am taking forward the work that has come back from the cross-departmental group on the actions that, Departments feel, they are in a position to deliver. I want the strategy to be ambitious. There is no point in it not being ambitious. We also want to make sure that it is credible and deliverable. I recognise the concerns and understand the frustrations that have been expressed by many in the groups that you talk about, which is why, prior to public consultation, we will engage with them directly. I hope that you will understand that I need to get Executive approval first. I do not want to hold any information back from you in any way, and I want the Committee to have its proper role, but I will need to get agreement from Executive colleagues about actions first. That is still work in progress.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We have heard that the second meeting of that cross-departmental working group was, I think, in January. How many meetings have taken place, and are you satisfied that the group will conclude its meetings in time for that work to be factored into the strategy?

Mr Lyons: Yes, it is still my expectation that that will be there by the end of the financial year. It is not just about the meetings that take place, of course; there is the work that is fed into that.

Emer, do you know the number of meetings that have taken place?

Ms Emer Morelli (Department for Communities): Yes. I chair the cross-departmental working group. We have had two meetings. All returns are now with the Department. The work of the cross-departmental group in bringing forward the proposals and actions is complete. That has informed the advice that will go to the Minister as part of the draft strategy.

I must emphasise that we were not starting from scratch on the cross-departmental working group. As you say, a wide range of evidence had already been provided on the issue. The focused work of the cross-departmental group has brought that together in respect of what Ministers can commit to now and what is affordable and credible, as the Minister said. That will all be collated and brought forward. We do not envisage another series of meetings of the cross-departmental working group. We are now in the final throes of draft advice to the Minister on the strategy.

Ms Mulholland: Minister, I am glad to hear that we are still working to the target of it being brought to the Executive by the end of the financial year. Will there be a budget for it for 2025-26? Has that been formulated? Given the cross-departmental working, are other Departments also factoring it into their budgets?

Mr Lyons: When I bring a strategy to the Executive — the housing supply strategy, the anti-poverty strategy or whatever else — if Executive Ministers are prepared to sign up to it and come forward with specific proposals, I see it as an Executive priority and therefore something that should be funded. I certainly hope that that will be the case here. I am not just laying something down in front of Executive colleagues and saying, "This is what I believe that you should do": we are asking, "What is credible from your point of view? What is realistic? What is achievable?". There will be other issues on top of that about which there may need to be further discussions.

I go back to my original point: I want to make a difference. I want to make a measurable difference. I want to make sure that we have policies in place that will change the situation in which many people find themselves. The strategy, obviously, needs to come with the required budget.

Ms Mulholland: Will you be looking at it in the in-year monitoring rounds in the coming year? Will those be the crux as regards where it will come from? Obviously, it will not be in place for 1 April; we know that. Will you be relying on bids in-year?

Mr Lyons: The Departments are already planning for some of the actions that will be part of the anti-poverty strategy anyway. Departments have come back to us and said, "These are some of the things that we want to be able to do". They are planning for those already.

Ms Morelli: The strategy will cover a period to be formally agreed between the Minister and the Executive. It is likely to be between five and 10 years, so budget requirements will be phased over that period. It is important to understand that it is not just about the coming financial year.

Ms K Armstrong: I am delighted that that cross-departmental work is ongoing, but it sounds a bit reactive as opposed to progressive. Certain items from other Departments will certainly help your anti-poverty strategy. However, if Departments are saying that they will come forward with what they can do as opposed to what we need them to do, that is a different thing. Are there any actions in the strategy that require other Departments to step up to the mark a bit more? If the fuel poverty strategy, for example, were cracked, that would be huge in helping people who struggle with costs at home. Is there any drive to push other Departments to meet your ambitions?

Mr Lyons: It is fair to say that that is part of the work that is ongoing. We have received the returns. We have looked at what the Departments are saying. Certainly, there will be a role for us over the next number of works to see how it all matches up and links together, so that it is not just individual actions that stand alone and so that we are trying to move things forward together in a way that will make a difference. Where we believe that further work can be done, that is ongoing.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you. Minister, as you know, we are here to help you as well as to scrutinise.

Mr Lyons: I appreciate that.

Ms K Armstrong: If there is anything that the Committee can do to encourage other Departments to step up to the mark — this is a very important issue that will have a huge benefit for them in the long term.

Mr Lyons: That is the point that I want to make again and again. So often, spend in the Department for Communities becomes investment in people that prevents additional public-sector spend being required elsewhere, be it in Health, Education or even Justice.

Mr McCrossan: Minister, thanks to you and your team for being with us.

There is a bit of confusion around a commitment that was given. I have another responsibility as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). A commitment was given under a memorandum of reply (MOR) that an update would be provided at the end of January, and we are now almost into March. First, why has there been a delay in or confusion about an update on the anti-poverty strategy? Secondly, the Department has only partially accepted recommendation 2 of the report. There is quite a bit of ambiguity around why there is a partial acceptance of that recommendation, given that your Department is the lead Department for delivering it. Will you provide some clarification on that? Thirdly — I know that the Minister takes the issue seriously, because he speaks about it, and that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes on it — the reality is that, with every day of delay, poverty in Northern Ireland worsens, and, unless we get ahead of it, people will continue to live in dire circumstances.

Mr Lyons: I will hand over to Emer on the specifics of the first couple of points. I will come in on the third one.

Ms Morelli: The Minister has written to PAC in respect of the background to recommendation 2. To be clear, it is not that we are demurring from our responsibility as the lead Department or from our responsibility to ensure that other Departments do all that they can. There is a partial acceptance of the recommendation from the Department for Communities because we cannot give you an assurance on actions on behalf of the Department of Education, for example. However, we have reflected on our response to the MOR and have set that out more clearly in our response to PAC. We will be happy to respond fully once you have considered that response.

Mr McCrossan: Obviously, that will be a matter for the PAC, but I appreciate the clarification. My concern — I am sure that you share it — is that there were clear failings with the child poverty strategy because no one was taking the lead or a hold of it. There is a concern that the silo mentality or operation of the Executive will be a considerable barrier to delivering this strategy and implementing it to its full effect.

Sorry, I am a bit —

Mr Lyons: I am here to help you as well, Daniel. [Laughter.]

Let me address that idea of a silo mentality, first. It is easy for us to lapse into that language and assume that Departments are not working together. That has not been my experience in this mandate. Look at how we very quickly worked together on the Defective Premises Act (Northern Ireland) 2024. Sinn Féin, DUP and Alliance Ministers worked together to tackle that issue. In all of the strategies that I am putting forward, I feel that we see good cross-departmental work; that is the only way to do it. Take the housing supply strategy, for instance. That was awaited for a long time. Kellie Armstrong even gave a "Woo-hoo" in the Chamber when I made that statement.

Ms Mulholland: There was a "Woo-hoo".

Ms K Armstrong: There was a "Woo-hoo".

Mr Lyons: That is a great example of how we have worked together in a cross-departmental way, in that case to identify how to tackle the issue of housing supply.

We have had no issues with Departments bringing back their returns, nominating Ministers and working together. It is absolutely the case that DFC is the lead when it comes to progressing the strategy and getting it in front of the Executive, but it will be very much an Executive strategy, because you cannot tackle the issue in any other way. I can genuinely say that no barriers have been put up by other Departments, officials, Ministers or anyone else in that regard.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Very briefly.

Mr Lyons: We all want to tackle the issue.

I know that time is tight, but I will go back to your other issues. We are putting an anti-poverty strategy in place, but that does not mean that we are not taking actions now. It is the same with the Programme for Government. We will, hopefully, get that to the Assembly very, very soon, but I have not waited for a Programme for Government to be in place to progress anti-poverty issues in this Department. Look at what we have done on welfare mitigations. Housing is —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We will come to a lot of those; we are moving though thematically.

Very briefly, Daniel.

Mr McCrossan: Yes, very briefly. I thank the Minister for those answers. You brought up the Programme for Government. I was going to ask about that. I hear that there is a green light ahead of us. Is there a clear pledge and commitment in the Programme for Government to tackle the issue at Executive level, with clear targets on how that will happen?

Mr Lyons: I am not in a position to say, before it goes to the Assembly. Unfortunately, the Communities Committee does not get to see it before the other Members. My expectation, however, is that you will not be disappointed with what comes forward, and I know that you are often disappointed.

Mr Kingston: Thank you for coming today, Minister. I agree that, as was the case with the housing supply strategy, it is important that the branding on the anti-poverty strategy is "Northern Ireland Executive" and that there is a responsibility for all Departments to take action, and that action must be measured.

You have often spoken, Minister, about the importance of people increasing their income through employment and about the support provided through your Department. I again mention the need of the voluntary sector groups that previously had funding from the European social fund (ESF) and the Shared Prosperity Fund. In the coming financial year, they will get 60% of their previous Shared Prosperity funding. What representations are you making to Westminster on the future of Shared Prosperity funding? What support can be provided from the block grant to sustain that work?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Brian, we agreed to move through thematically. You are taking a slightly different angle —

Mr Kingston: It very much is on anti-poverty.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): — which will come up in another section. If you do not mind, will you come back on that? That will come up, I think, in the section on core funding.

Mr Kingston: It was on anti-poverty.

Mr Lyons: On that point about anti-poverty, we absolutely need to increase incomes, making sure that people get the right support from the welfare system but also, importantly, that there are pathways into employment. Many of those organisations are critical and key to making sure that we break down barriers to employment and get people back into work. That is essential, absolutely. We will come on to that later, but, yes, I have been lobbying the Government on it.

Mr Kingston: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you. Is there anything new in the new draft strategy over and above what was in the previous draft strategy?

Mr Lyons: I have not always directly compared what is in the strategy now with what was in it previously. I do not know whether Emer has any particular issues to raise, but new and novel things have certainly come up from Departments.

Ms Morelli: Yes, including our Department. I understand, Chair, that we will be back at the Committee shortly to discuss the anti-poverty strategy. We can bring more detail then, if that would be helpful.

Mr Lyons: I emphasise that I genuinely want to have a collaborative working relationship with the Committee on the strategy. I see consultation as something that we do not just for the sake of it but because we genuinely want to work together to make sure that we get things right.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I would have liked more detail. On a basic issue, how many pages is the draft strategy?

Ms Morelli: As it stands, the draft strategy will be approximately 30 pages. That will be subject to the Minister's final view.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. Will that be a significant reduction in length from the draft document that you inherited?

Ms Morelli: Subject to the Minister's final view and agreement, we aim to make the strategy as accessible and user-friendly as possible. I am talking about the strategy document itself and not necessarily the action plans underpinning the strategy and the screenings and equality assessments that we will have to do and that will accompany it.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I reiterate that there is grave concern in the sector, so I urge you to put all your attention into the content of the strategy.

Mr Allen: I know that welfare mitigations will be brought up later, but I want to focus on the point that Sian made about the budget and to talk specifically about welfare mitigations. Minister, your officials were at the Committee last week to talk about the welfare mitigations review, and they advised the Committee that updated costings had been provided to you and the Department. If I am not mistaken, they said that those were provided last year. Will you advise when the Committee or the Assembly more widely will get sight of those updated costings? Has any consideration been given to having further mitigations as part of the anti-poverty strategy, given the important role that the current mitigations have played?

Mr Lyons: That will feed into the ongoing discussions, but I expect to get those figures to the Executive and the Assembly in the next couple of weeks.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK, thank you.

We will move on to other social inclusion strategies and the Irish language strategy. You will be aware that there is increasing concern about that as well, Minister; there is a bit of a pattern there, I have to say. I know that Conradh na Gaeilge has written to you three times to ask to meet you and has not yet had a meeting. There has, I think, also been a request from the strategy co-design group. Why have you not met Conradh na Gaeilge?

Mr Lyons: It is the same as with the engagement on the other strategies. We have a process in place whereby the expert groups, the panels and other interested stakeholders made their contributions and gave us information. The cross-departmental groups have been set up. Those cross-departmental groups have been examining what each Department can do in relation to the action plans. It is the same for the language strategies, the anti-poverty strategy and the disability strategy.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We are concerned that people who contributed so much to all those strategies are not able to get a meeting with you. I understand that you are setting out a process, but I ask why that process does not include meeting those groups, which have contributed so much.

Mr Lyons: We have all the information from them already. They have given us extensive —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): With all due respect, how do you know? How do you know what it is they are seeking to meet you about? There could be new or updated information. A huge part of the draft anti-poverty strategy was updated. I do not understand how you know what you do not know without meeting them.

Ms Morelli: It is important to say that, in all these processes, there is active engagement at official level with all the groups. We are not sitting back and not taking forward work. As the Minister said, it is incumbent on us, as officials, to bring advice to him as informed by the various evidence bases that we have, and that is the process that we are in.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): In our advisory capacity, I can advise you that sectors across a range of issues, including that one, are increasingly concerned about not being able to contact, interact and engage.

Mr Lyons: Are they saying that they are not finding a way to get information through to the Department?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): No. They are saying that they are not getting to meet you, Minister.

Mr Lyons: Not getting a meeting with the Minister. OK.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Yes, they want to meet you.

Minister, can you give a firm commitment today that an Irish language strategy will be published during your tenure as Minister?

Mr Lyons: That is certainly the expectation. We have been going —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): It is the expectation of everyone. I accept that it is the expectation. I am asking you, as Minister, if you will commit today that it will be — not "it is expected to be" but "it will be" — published.

Mr Lyons: I can commit to taking matters to the Executive. I cannot say what the Executive may agree, whether it will be on the agenda or whether they will agree on it. With all of this —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): When will you take the Irish language strategy to the Executive?

Mr Lyons: I will take it to the Executive once the ongoing work of the cross-departmental working group is completed. That group is taking the proposals and looking at what is there. We are examining what the budgetary consequences of each proposed action will be. The group is considering what work needs to be undertaken so that that can be progressed to the next stage.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): What is the timeline, Minister? It has been over a year now. We have been hearing "soon" for a lot of things. What is the timeline for that strategy?

Mr Lyons: I currently do not have a timeline for either of those strategies — it will be dependent on the work that comes back — but I pledge that we will keep the Committee updated on those, Colm.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK, and the Committee will certainly keep enquiring about that.

Ms Mulholland: I echo some of what the Chair has said, as I have been contacted by Irish language groups. Yesterday, I stood alongside those who protested about the funding situation for Irish language groups. There is a paper on reform of Foras na Gaeilge. We have been informed that the DUP has blocked that at the Executive five times since Halloween. I am not sure whether that can be confirmed. When there is funding on the table from the Irish Government that would allow more progress in the Irish language development sector, are you doing anything to progress it?

Mr Lyons: Are you referring specifically to the North/South funding issue?

Ms Mulholland: Just to the fact that that is on the table. There is £8·5 million in your budget for languages in 2025-26; I think that that is what you bid for. If there is the option for more money to be on the table, regardless of where it has come from, are you doing anything to progress that?

Mr Lyons: Discussions are ongoing with officials from Northern Ireland and the Republic. My understanding is that there is a specific pension issue. I do not think that I am at liberty to go into all the nuts and bolts of that. I understand that that pension issue has presented itself particularly acutely this year, but my officials have continued to engage with officials from the Republic of Ireland to see whether there is a way in which that can be sorted out, agreed and worked on. You will be aware of the different funding ratios that have been established and are in place. Officials are trying to find a way through that.

Ms Mulholland: Given that you are looking at a funding crisis, regardless of where the money is coming from, those groups are saying, "Can we get on with it?". The other —

Mr Lyons: There may be implications, though, for increased responsibilities at our end. We need to make sure that that is bottomed out and to know whether others committing themselves means that there will be a further expectation on us down the line.

Ms Mulholland: OK. That is useful.

My other question is on a third judicial review that may be somewhere on the horizon against the Department around the Irish language. A strategy is a statutory obligation rather than just a nice thing for the Irish language community to have. What is the Department doing with the sector to avoid any further legal implications of the non-delivery of that work?

Mr Lyons: It is a similar situation to that of the anti-poverty strategy, where we have demonstrated the action that has been taken and how it is being progressed. We will be able to demonstrate the same with the language strategies. Action is ongoing. There is active work with the cross-departmental working groups. We will have the information to show that the strategy is not stuck and that the proper and necessary work is going on.

Ms Mulholland: As the Chair said, it is about engagement and communication with the groups. If they get nothing back from the Department, they feel that it is stuck.

Mr Lyons: It is certainly my understanding that they have been kept updated.

Ms Morelli: There is ongoing engagement with the Department at official level. As the Minister said, if information has not been brought forward, we can look at that.

Ms Mulholland: Is there engagement with the co-design group? Is the engagement at official level just between Departments, or is there external engagement with groups?

Ms Morelli: We continue to engage with groups too.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Have officials met Conradh na Gaeilge recently?

Ms Morelli: I can come back to the Committee on that. We have been in correspondence, even if we have not met directly. I will come back to confirm that.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you.

We have Andy next.

Mr Allen: My point has just been covered, Chair.

Mr McHugh: Fáilte romhaibh. Tá sé deas bualadh libh anseo arís.

Minister, I was impressed by your grasp of the importance of language when you talked in the Chamber last week about sign language in particular. You described how important it is not just for communication but for culture and for the sign language community. You even communicated with people through basic signing. It was a gesture to the sign language community. I feel exactly the same about the Irish language, as do the Irish language community. They think that their language and culture deserve the same respect. They are totally disappointed, particularly in you, as Minister, for not meeting Conradh na Gaeilge or other Irish language organisations and for failing to deliver on the strategy, which is an integral part of the Good Friday Agreement and the New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) agreement. I ask you this again, Minister: what involvement have you had in any respect with the development of the strategy, which is so much needed for the promotion and development of the Irish language in the North of Ireland?

Mr Lyons: First, thanks very much for your comments; in fact, I thank the wider Committee for its support of the sign language legislation. It is much appreciated. On that point, in case I do not get a chance to raise it later, I hope that we can progress the Committee Stage of the Sign Language Bill as quickly as possible. Many groups have contacted me to ask for that, so I hope that it will be the case.

Let me make it clear: I fully respect and understand the importance of language and of the heritage and culture around it. I can understand the frustration at the fact that the strategy has not been delivered yet. In fact, I have picked up the same frustration in the Department with a lot of issues that have not been taken forward, whether in relation to sport, anti-poverty measures or the language strategies. That is why we have been working on getting the cross-departmental groups together. Engagement has gone on with officials, and I expect to have further information in front of me soon. I am aware of my legislative commitments, as well as the commitments that I have to people across Northern Ireland to make sure that their culture, language and traditions are respected.

Mr McHugh: Can we be confident that, during your tenure as Minister, we will have in place an Irish language strategy before the end of the mandate?

Mr Lyons: Again, I am hopeful that we will have the anti-poverty strategy in place, but I can talk only about what I will bring to the Executive. However, given the timelines that we have in front of us, I would be surprised if there were not something in front of the Executive in this mandate.

Mr McHugh: I look forward to that, Minister. I also look forward to, at some stage, your being able to express some of our well known phrases as Gaeilge

to the Irish language community, so that there is deference to it in every respect.

Mr Lyons: That is another challenge for me and something else for me to learn.

Mr McCrossan: Minister, there is an equality issue around the Irish language strategy. I know that you recognise that that needs to be addressed, but the actions of the Department under your leadership tell a different story. The challenges and hurdles that have led to your not meeting Conradh na Gaeilge are frustrating not just for that group but for everybody who supports the work that it does. A commitment to meet it would be a good starting point.

The Irish language strategy should be a priority in the mandate, particularly given what has happened over recent years. Has the First Minister, Michelle O'Neill, pressed you on bringing the Irish language strategy to the Executive, and, if so, when was the most recent time that such engagement happened?

Mr Lyons: It is important that, when it comes to meeting organisations, I treat people the same. I do not want any organisation to feel as though it is being treated differently. We have put a process in place on the basis of advice that we have received about how we take those forward. I am more than happy to engage once we get to a stage similar to that which has been reached in the anti-poverty strategy process.

I do not have a list of all my correspondence from the First Minister with me, but I can certainly check that and come back to you about it.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Very briefly, Kellie.

Ms K Armstrong: It is a brief question. Minister, what you just said about timescales seems to suggest that there is a departmental planned time frame for some of those strategies, although, obviously, they are ambitions, as opposed to exact dates. Is it possible for you to share with the Committee details of when, the Department hopes, the different strategies will come forward? It would help us to plan our time.

Mr Lyons: I have not been made aware of those time frames, but, if we have them, there is no reason why they cannot be shared.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Briefly, Brian.

Mr Kingston: It is brief, Chair. Is there any update on the development of the matching Ulster-Scots language, heritage and culture strategy?

Mr Lyons: Absolutely. Those strategies are moving in tandem. The submissions came together to me. The same work is being done. We want to make sure that the cross-departmental group looks at that and that we weigh those up to see what is affordable and achievable. We are keen to make sure that we do that together. The strategies are important to people across Northern Ireland, and I want to make sure that they are treated similarly.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Before we move on to Casement Park, the massive benefit that is derived from the GAA has been set out recently. As Minister for Communities, you have never attended a GAA match. Why is that, and when do you intend to attend a match, so that you can see the wonderful commitment that the GAA has to sport?

Mr Lyons: I attended a match at the GAA Games for All event in Randalstown. It was a kids' match, but it was still a match. I received a very warm welcome and was very pleased to be there. The theme was about inclusion and how everybody can be involved. That is the only invitation that I have received from a GAA club so far. It invited me to come along, and I was happy to take that up.

Ms K Armstrong: You will be tortured now.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): My understanding is that Jarlath Burns has invited you to other matches.

Mr Lyons: There was an open invitation to come. I received it a few days before the All-Ireland final in July or maybe August last year. I got that only a few days before.

I am talking about specific clubs. I have taken up that invite, and there was no issue in doing that whatever. As I have said before, I am more than happy to attend. I get lots of invitations to different clubs and to different sports across Northern Ireland, and I am happy to accept those invitations.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Do you recognise the value that the GAA brings?

Mr Lyons: I do, and I have said that. I have talked about the power of sport across Northern Ireland. That is obviously an important part of wider sport in Northern Ireland. It is why I have issued a number of invites for Armagh to come to Parliament Buildings. I wanted to offer Armagh a reception here, but that invitation was not accepted. I certainly recognise the contribution that the GAA has made.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Given that contribution, which you have set out, what is the latest thing that you have done to move the Casement Park project forward?

Mr Lyons: The first thing to do is to put this in its proper context, and I will come on to that detail.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): No, I know the context. In fairness, Minister, you have reiterated that context in numerous interviews in recent times. We have the context: I want to know what you are doing currently.

Mr Lyons: Let me talk about my responsibility then. My responsibility, as has been agreed by the Executive, is to deliver £62·5 million, as was originally agreed in 2011. That is the background and the context that I mean. That is the responsibility that the Department has. That changed when it came to the Euros because the Department became the contracting authority because of the size and scale of that programme. That is not happening now. We were informed of that in September. We have had discussions with the GAA. We meet the GAA roughly once a month.

Ms Morelli: At least.

Mr Lyons: We meet the GAA at least once a month at official level. Although it remains the responsibility of the GAA to come forward with its proposals and I have said many times that the commitment is still there of £62·5 million, I have been asked and have agreed to write to the Secretary of State to ask for more information. I received a response, and there was no more information forthcoming from him. Therefore, on this and on other critical issues for the Department, I have asked to meet the Secretary of State to tease out where we are with UK Government funding for sport in Northern Ireland, including Casement Park.

Miss Brogan: Thank you, Minister and your officials, for attending this morning.

I want to pick up on the development of Casement Park. As the Chair said, it has been discussed widely across the media, especially this week. You will know that the GAA president, Jarlath Burns, has described attempting to work with your Department as a "hostile environment". Do you agree with that? What measures are you taking to correct that perception? Maybe taking up Jarlath's open invitation to attend a GAA match would go some way to correct the perception that it is a hostile environment for GAA officials to work alongside your Department.

Mr Lyons: First, I have not yet had the opportunity to publicly welcome you to the Committee and wish you well in your role. West Tyrone is well represented on the Communities Committee, and it is good to have you here.

I certainly do not agree with the characterisation that there is in any way a hostile environment towards Jarlath or the GAA. I can understand his frustration. I can understand why, after 14 years of no action being taken, he is frustrated, but there is certainly not a hostile environment that I am presiding over in the Department. When he has requested to meet me, I have met him. Officials engage regularly — at least once a month — on the issue. It is important to highlight the fact that he was in the Building a couple of weeks ago. An event was taking place that I was not aware of, but, when I realised that he was in the Building, as a courtesy and wanting to build relationships, I offered a meeting to him to see whether he wanted to come up and have a conversation. There is regular engagement on that.

I think that Jarlath's frustration comes from the fact that he may well be under pressure from within his organisation. I understand that, and I understand the frustration of 14 years of promises being made. He has seen that the regional stadia development programme has resulted in Windsor Park and Ravenhill being completed, while nothing has been done about Casement Park, despite all of the circumstances surrounding it.

I stand ready to meet the Secretary of State, and I have offered to meet. I have said to Jarlath that I will meet him after that meeting takes place. It is not right to say that there is a hostile environment. He mentioned specifically the posters about the GAA that were put up in Antrim, and he said that no unionist politician had condemned that: that is incorrect. I am happy to put on the record that my colleague Trevor Clarke rightly condemned that, and I am prepared to do that again now. It can be easy sometimes to blame politicians or a unionist Minister, but that simply does not match the reality of what the Department has been doing.

Miss Brogan: To follow up on that, the reality is that you are the Communities Minister. You are the Minister in the Executive who is tasked with pushing forward the redevelopment of Casement Park. It is an Executive flagship project, and it is up to you to push that. I can totally understand the frustration of the GAA president and Gaels across the North and throughout Ireland who feel that that process has been frustrated.

Jarlath Burns represents the association across the Thirty-two Counties with thousands of clubs and tens of thousands of members. Perhaps you could clarify exactly how you made the invitation to meet Jarlath when he was in Parliament Buildings. I am not sure whether that was the appropriate way to ask for a meeting with the GAA president, given whom he represents. He was in Parliament Buildings to present to the all-party group on sports and physical recreation on the social value and economic benefits that the GAA brings to communities. I attended that meeting, which was useful and important. I can totally understand his frustration and that of Gaels throughout the North with the delays to the project. As Communities Minister, it is your job to deliver that Executive flagship project.

Mr Lyons: My commitment is to deliver what was agreed, which is the £62·5 million of funding. I am more than happy to facilitate additional conversations around that. The issue that has been raised is about communication and relationships. I had found out only that day that Jarlath was going to be there, and, certainly, I offered an in-person meeting. I hope that he can see it from my point of view. I am certainly not attempting to create, nor have I created, a hostile environment in any way.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK, thank you. We will have to move on quite briskly, members. Please be as brief as possible.

Mr McCrossan: Minister, when it comes to issues of Irish culture, there is a perceived trend that you tend to trail your feet on matters around language and the GAA. I hope that, in the time ahead, you will rectify that perception by your actions.

We have seen the minutes of the meeting that you held with the GAA on 31 October 2024. You committed to doing three things, but you did not deliver them. The GAA wrote to you on 20 December 2024, another two months having passed, and again on 7 February 2025. As of today, 27 February 2025, four months on from that meeting, you have not even had the wherewithal to respond to the GAA on where the commitments are that you gave it on 31 October 2024. That is reprehensible, and it needs to be addressed.

I would also like you to address three key areas. Why have you not met the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to advocate UK Government funding for Casement Park when you gave a commitment at that meeting to do so? Why have you not brought a paper to the Northern Ireland Executive Committee regarding the delivery of the Casement Park project when you also gave a commitment to do that? Finally, why have you not instructed departmental officials to advance the procurement of the necessary remediation and enabling works at the Casement Park site when you also gave a commitment to do that?

Mr Lyons: OK, Daniel, first, I will address your comments about my attitude towards the GAA and Irish culture and tradition and how I am not doing what, you think, I should be doing on those things.

Mr McCrossan: There is a perceived trend.

Mr Lyons: It is perceived. I could say that about almost any issue. Do you think that I am not doing everything that I should be doing on housing or that I am doing a good job on housing?

Mr McCrossan: We will focus on the GAA. Housing will come.

Mr Lyons: That answers my question. You will criticise me regardless of what I do and say, especially if you think that it is politically expedient for you to do so.

Let me take those three areas. First, I will deal with what I have done to advocate for funding from the UK Government, realising and recognising that my first responsibility is to release the £62·5 million that has been agreed. I remain willing to do that. However, with regard to UK Government funding, as someone who wants to see more funding for sport in Northern Ireland, I wrote to the Secretary of State asking him for clarity on the potential contribution that we could see for sport in Northern Ireland. I did not —.

Mr McCrossan: Your commitment was on Casement Park, Minister. The minutes of the meeting state that you made a commitment to advocate to the Secretary of State and the UK Government for funding for Casement. I am asking whether you have done that —

Mr Lyons: Yes, I have.

Mr McCrossan: — for Casement.

Mr Lyons: Yes. That was included in the letter, but you will recognise that, when it comes to the funding of sports, there are needs across many sports in Northern Ireland. We have received a response on that. It was not clear to me, so I have requested a meeting with the Secretary of State. I hope that that will happen soon.

Secondly, you asked why I have not taken a paper to the Executive. That is because it is hard for me to do so when there is no clarity around the funding that the UK Government may contribute. That is the first thing that we need to get from them: what they are prepared to give and what credible amount we might want to have on the table.

Thirdly, you asked why I have not instructed officials on the remediation works. That is because we have spent a lot of money on the project so far and it is not right for us to go ahead and do that work until we have clarity on what will be on that site. That is based on the official advice that I have received.

Mr McCrossan: Given that it is an Executive priority and has been for some time, have the First Minister, Michelle O'Neill, and the Finance Minister pressed you on funding for Casement Park? When was the last engagement that you had with them on that key project?

Mr Lyons: I have received some requests. It goes back to your previous question: I have received some correspondence from them, and those issues have been raised at Executive meetings, but, Mr Chair, I would be careful about going into that without being 100% sure of dates and times. I think that I understand why the Member asks the question, but I will need to check what I am at liberty to say on that.

Mr Bradley: I will be brief. I have been listening to the discussion. I have been locked out of the meeting since you first went into a break, so I have picked up only the last 10 or 15 minutes. I know that we are focusing primarily on Casement Park. Casement should have been delivered at the same time as Windsor Park and Ravenhill, but, for various reasons, it did not happen.

The Minister has recently opened the Football Fund. I know that he has money sitting there that was agreed at that time for the GAA. I ask him to release that as soon as possible. However, during his discussions with the Secretary of State, did he mention any of the other sports, such as football, rugby, rowing and athletics — a multitude of sports across Northern Ireland — that are vastly underfunded? If those sports were given the funding to upgrade their facilities, it would make the whole of Northern Ireland a much better and healthier place to live in. Has the Secretary of State responded to any requests, if those have been made to him?

Mr Lyons: I will raise those issues with the Secretary of State when, I hope, I get a meeting with him. I agree with Maurice: many sports and sporting organisations are asking for money and require funding at this time. I want to make sure that we fund sports equitably. That was the basis of the agreement in 2011. The need that we have now is much higher than it was then.

It goes back to the point about frustration.

I know that people in the GAA are frustrated with how things have developed or not developed over the last number of years. It has been exactly the same with the Northern Ireland Football Fund, which was held up by my predecessors simply because Casement had not moved forward. That is now having consequences for the value of that money.

We should be advocates of more funding for sport, but I have to balance that against competing priorities in my Department and across the Executive as a whole. I certainly want to make sure that we advocate for that on a fair and equal basis.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Very briefly, Andy. I did not have you on the radar. Go ahead.

Mr Allen: I have two points. Minister, we have heard a lot about the context for Casement, but, from the Department's perspective and yours, has the Department advanced all that it can at this juncture in respect of Casement to ensure that it can be delivered if and when the additional funding is found? Finally, in one of your last contributions, you mentioned that a lot of money has been spent to date: can you indicate how much?

Mr Lyons: My understanding of the figure for Casement to date, if I am right, is that it is £17 million.

Mr Allen: OK. Are you satisfied that, at this juncture, the Department has done everything that needs to be done to advance Casement?

Mr Lyons: I am satisfied that the Department has done everything that is required of it and has provided additional help and offers of help. That is why there are those regular meetings with the GAA.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Minister, we will move on to the arts. You will be aware that the Committee had significant engagement with the arts sector. Themes are emerging, and we are preparing a report for you to flag the issues. I look forward to getting that to you and to hearing back from you. It is a sector that brings huge value to us socially, economically and even in health and education. I am sure that we are all on the same page in that respect. The report is just an attempt by the Committee to put a focus on it.

Ms Mulholland: The letter of expectations was published yesterday, and I have no words to describe the fear in the arts sector at the moment. I have received more communication on that issue than on anything else. There is a worry that some of the language is indicative of a change of priority and that that change of priority will lead to a change in funding. The worry is based on the fact that data is already collected by the Arts Council, so we know that the demographics of the workforce and of the various areas are already outlined. First, are you worried? Is there something in that data that shows you that there is something to worry about and that you need to re-prioritise? Secondly, there is a line in the letter of expectations that states:

Can you outline what that will mean? Who decides what is disrespectful and what is not? I would like to know what the word "disrespectful" will include and whether you believe that your re-prioritisation will reduce any of the current arts programme funding that will go out. As you know, the organisations do not get their letters. They get an indicative letter and spend as though they are getting the funding, but, if we are not getting the budget finalised, you will have organisations that may need to have different approaches to their staffing and programming.

Mr Lyons: First of all, it is worth reiterating what I want to see happen, which, first and foremost, is more funding for the arts. That is what we need to see more than anything else, because the arts are underfunded and have been underfunded for far too long. Even at our peak, that funding was not what it should have been. I want to make it clear to the Committee that, first and foremost, that is what I want to do. I have had a degree of success in getting more through monitoring rounds etc.

Secondly, I am putting a new arts policy in place. That is coming forward. Work is being done on that. I want to progress that at pace, because it is right that we have that framework in place as we move forward. That had been largely welcomed. In the absence of that being in place, I want to make sure that we have an understanding of where this is likely to go and what the ministerial priorities are.

It is right that the Arts Council links in with the Department and that we work together. I want to see us working better together. That was the basis of the letter of expectations.

I also want to make sure that, if we move to new or different funding models, that is as smooth as possible. I do not want any chaos in the system from that change. You will recognise and understand the concern of people across many parts of Northern Ireland that they do not always get the support that they hope for in the arts. That is not a criticism of the Arts Council — I recognise that the Arts Council operates in really difficult budgetary environments — but my saying that I want to be in a position to make sure that the arts are open to everybody, that everybody feels that they can partake and that new people and groups can take part.

Last night, I spoke to members of an arts group who expressed their frustration. They are trying to get off the ground and do new things. They have had a lot of success but limited funding from government, and they feel that they are constantly coming up against barriers. I want make sure that there is access and that people who traditionally might not have got funding get it as well. I do not see that as particularly new, novel or contentious but as reflective of what I hear around the Chamber. We want to make sure that arts funding is allocated fairly and equitably and that the support that is needed is there. That is not to say that it is not there now; I just want to make sure that we do better.

Ms Mulholland: What about the funding sanctions for —?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Briefly, Sian.

Ms Mulholland: I asked about funding potentially being removed. The letter refers to "substantive action" as a result of:

Will you elaborate on what that means?

Mr Lyons: That has been raised with me in the past. We want to make sure that we fulfil our section 75 obligations and that we treat people with dignity and respect.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Minister. We will move on to housing.

Mr Lyons: Mr Chairman, I am sorry. I agreed to be here from 10.15 am to 11.00 am. I have other appointments. I am happy to give you more time, but be aware that I am under time pressure because I have an appointment in Lisburn.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. I appreciate that, and I know that you have been out and about quite a bit and communicating, so the Committee welcomes this opportunity. Could we say 11.30 am? We have a couple of other issues to run through quickly.

Mr Lyons: It will be tight. Even 11.25 am, just to make sure —.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We will make it a limit rather than a target.

That brings me to my first question. I am told that, at a recent engagement between officials from the Department and the sector, the comment was made that the housing supply strategy target of 100,000 homes was an ambition: I want to clarify that. Is it a hard target, and are the elements in place that you need to deliver that or start the process of meeting it?

Mr Lyons: I want to go beyond 100,000; that is my ambition. We are not putting that down as hard and fast, but I want it to be above that, because we have a crisis in housing, and the way to deal with that is through supply.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Concern has been raised about engagement since the announcement on intimidation points and about what will happen at the end of March to people who have intimidation points. I have the sense that the sector is adrift without a clear understanding of what will happen at the end of March. Will you update us on that?

Mr Lyons: I tasked the Housing Executive with removing intimidation points by the end of the financial year. My understanding is that that is proceeding.

Mark, do you have any additional information on that?

Mr Mark O'Donnell (Department for Communities): At the end of the financial year, anybody who has been awarded intimidation points will retain them, but no new intimidation points will be awarded. There is a very small number of such people, thankfully. That is to protect from any disadvantage people already in the system who have that award and that expectation.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you. It is a short timescale, so I encourage maximum coordination with all sectors, given all the moving parts in that.

Mr Kingston: I appreciate the time pressure.

Is there any update on intermediate rent? I know that that is reduced private-sector rent and the support for that.

I keep flagging the issue of derelict properties and the need to focus on those, especially where you get long-term derelict properties in an area just causing blight. It is tedious work chasing those up. There used to be a unit that looked at empty homes, which, I understand, no longer exists in the housing sector. However, there is a need to focus on what are often privately owned houses that have been inherited or, for whatever reason, are derelict. If there is not a focus on bringing them back into use, they cause a blight.

Mr Lyons: On that issue, the Agriculture Minister, Andrew Muir, will introduce his dereliction Bill in due course. I hope that that will be another good example of cross-departmental working through which the issues can potentially be addressed. It will involve working with the Finance Minister to make sure that the rating system reflects some of those concerns as well.

It is a challenging one, and there are different reasons for that. The figures are probably higher than the reality, as you have homes that are being sold, are temporarily empty or whatever the case may be. The figures do not tell the whole story. Certainly, we have done a good job of emphasising to the Housing Executive and the housing associations the importance of dealing with void properties, though the number for the Housing Executive was low to begin with anyway. However, the housing associations are looking to make more progress on that. It is also about cost for us and where we can put our resources to make the most difference. Often, there can be a lot of cost in dealing with long-term empty properties That does not mean that we should not address the issue.

I hope that we will make an announcement shortly on intermediate rent. It is a good start. We will use financial transactions capital (FTC), which is often underused, and I hope that we will be able to ramp that up in the future. We will have an announcement on that soon.

Ms K Armstrong: Minister, I know that you are under pressure, so I will hit you with a couple of questions.

Housing Executive reform is still on the cards. We still do not know what is happening. I am keen to find out what is happening with Housing Executive landlords being able to build again. How are we getting on with that?

On reform, I know that there is a brick wall between the two entities of the Housing Executive, but there is a concern that, when the landlord scheme starts to build again, the authority side of the house will be making and taking decisions that, to be honest, the landlords will be in competition with other providers for. How are we looking at that?

Also on the Housing Executive, may I double-check that the hikes in its National Insurance contributions are covered under the public bodies contribution coming from Treasury, or is it separate from that?

I will leave it there. I can write to the Department with my other questions.

Mr Lyons: My understanding is that work on the National Insurance contributions is ongoing with Treasury. We do not have full clarity yet on what it means exactly for a number of public bodies. That is of concern to us, because it has significant consequences. Do you have any update on that, Mark?

Mr O'Donnell: No. We have an expectation across the public sector that there is a certain amount of money to cover the impact on public-sector bodies. A Budget briefing comes next, I understand. I do not know whether that will be enough to cover every requirement, so, in the Budget process, individual Ministers will have to decide how to make best use of whatever funding is made available to them. Those decisions have not been made yet.

Mr Lyons: Kellie, I am pushing the revitalisation element and building every week. To be fair, it is another good example of cross-departmental working. The previous Finance Minister had certainly taken on the issue as well. We have achieved cross-party consensus across the Executive on the importance of the issue, and DOF, at official and ministerial level, has been progressing it. It is one of the issues that I want to raise with the Secretary of State. I will not take my foot off the pedal on that one, because it is critical, and I will continue to do everything that I can on that.

I have had some preliminary discussions with the Housing Executive on the landlord-housing authority issue that you talked about. I have no doubt that that can be managed appropriately and done in the right way. I believe that there are plans in place that can deal with that.

Ms K Armstrong: It would be useful if we were able to give housing associations and others the confidence that any decisions that are taken will be fair and balanced.

Mr Lyons: That will absolutely have to be the case. There cannot be any special treatment.

Mr O'Donnell: It is important to say that the strategic housing authority part is accountable to the Minister. Were there to be any potential for a conflict of interest, the Minister would be aware of it through the arrangements whereby it is accountable to the Department.

I am tempted to say that it would be a nice problem to have that we had a greater capacity to build. Were Grainia Long sitting alongside the Minister, I think that she would be saying that, because of the ambition in the housing supply strategy, we need housing associations to build to their maximum capacity and the Housing Executive to be able to build to its capacity.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you. I acknowledge your remarks, Minister, about the fact that you are engaging urgently with Treasury on the National Insurance contributions. I encourage you to keep in close contact with the sectors that are so concerned. You have reflected their concern, and I know that you are well aware of it.

Mr McCrossan: Thank you, Minister. I think that, widely, people agree that the intimidation points need to be removed from the scheme, because that aspect has been subject to abuse. Where there is a genuine case of intimidation or a genuine threat, however, how do we ensure that a person does not remain trapped and that they get the assistance and support that they need to ensure their safety and that of their family?

Mr Lyons: If there is a genuine and immediate threat, the Housing Executive will use the processes that are currently in place for making sure that someone is kept safe. That is absolutely a priority, and nothing will change in that respect. This is about the longer-term issues that people face in finding a permanent home. We are simply creating a level playing field. There will be no change for those who find themselves at immediate risk.

Mr McCrossan: Finally, there is a simple housing agenda: build, build, build by whatever means necessary. There are hurdles in the form of some of the wider infrastructure challenges and in our planning system. This has been raised with you, and you have spoken about it: how can we ensure that we bring the vacant properties — homes — across Northern Ireland back up to standard? What role will you play in that? It is about resolving an issue with empty properties and ensuring that people have homes available to them in many areas. Doing that could resolve countless problems in a more cost-effective way.

Mr Lyons: I get that: it is a serious issue. That is frustrating for people when they are crying out for a home and have nowhere to go. They see empty properties and ask, "Why couldn't I live there?".

In many respects, it is difficult for the Department to do all that needs to be done: oftentimes, the properties that we are talking about are in private possession and the Department cannot immediately step in to do something about them. There is work that can be done, however, in the rates system, for example.

Various policy measures have been put in place in Scotland. It is fair to say that the results there have been middling at best, so I do not think that we necessarily have a good template to look to.

Mr McCrossan: There are pilots in the South. I am conscious that, across Donegal, the council, I think — I would need to clarify that — has been purchasing privately owned homes and repurposing them to the required standards for tenants. As far as I am aware, that has proven to be successful, particularly in more rural areas. Maybe your Department could look at that.

Mr Lyons: We can look into that. Again, we have to look at cost. In some cases, purchasing a property, the legal hoops that have to be jumped through and bringing a property up to the required and expected standard can cost more than building.

Mr O'Donnell: It is probably worth saying that housing associations can already buy properties on the open market through the acquisition of satisfactory houses or something of that kind. Buying compulsorily is a different process.

Mr Bradley: Thank you, Minister, for your commitments so far.

In many instances, second homes are viewed as being an investment opportunity rather than somewhere to live. Can your Department explore a higher rates base for tax, higher rates for second homes, a vacancy tax or vacancy rate to be imposed on long-term vacant properties or an increase in stamp duty on second homes? We are at crisis point and have to do something. The indigenous populations in my constituency, which takes in Portrush, Portstewart, Castlerock and Portballintrae, are being forced away from their local areas. They cannot afford homes there because of second-home buyers etc. It is a problem that affects not just the market but the local community; it breaks up the local community. For example, Portballintrae is made up of 50% second homes and 50% owner-occupied and Housing Executive properties. Has the Minister any plans to introduce any kind of higher tax or rate base to make it less attractive to invest in second homes?

Mr Lyons: That was part of discussions that I had with ministerial colleagues in the run-up to the publication of the housing supply strategy. Certainly, it may well be complex. The Department of Finance and Land and Property Services (LPS) could look at it. Another challenge, Maurice, is that it is not just second homes but properties that are being used for Airbnb. The regulation of that is poor. Most of them are not regulated and are not even following the rules that they should follow.

First, we need to make sure that the rules that are there are followed properly, and, secondly, we need to look at what additional regulation may be required. That is important because we are starting to see this as an issue and not only in tourism hotspots such as you will find in your constituency; lately, the cost of some properties in east Belfast was raised with me. It is important that we have that proper regulation, and that is all part of the wider housing supply strategy approach.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Maurice, and thank you, Minister.

Andy, please be as brief as you can.

Mr Allen: Thanks, Chair. I will be brief, and I will follow up my other questions in writing.

Minister, recently, we had the place-shaping team in from the Housing Executive. Those officials indicated, for the period 2023-28, a forecasted need for 24,922 new social homes. How does that align with the housing supply strategy? Secondly, do you accept, given that forecast, using its current methodology, of a need for nearly 5,000 homes a year over that period that that is where we need to get to?

Mr Lyons: You will have no greater advocate than me of building more social homes. I bid to the Executive and will continue to do so. It is why I am working so hard on Housing Executive revitalisation to get that over the line. I have set out our ambition for at least 33,000 homes through the housing supply strategy over the next 15-year period. All that I can tell you, Andy, is that I will do everything that I can to make sure that those are delivered and that we have the policies in place that help us to get there.

Mr Allen: Very briefly, Minister, because I know that you are under pressure, how does that forecast align? It is out of kilter, notwithstanding the pressures. For the period between 2023 and 2028, the Housing Executive forecasts a need for nearly 25,000 homes, which is not far off what the entirety of the housing supply strategy aims to achieve.

Mr Lyons: That is the first time that I have heard that specific figure. I am happy to look at that. Of course, we will revise our figures as we go along to make sure that we are on track.

Mr Allen: Surely, the Housing Executive will have fed into the housing supply strategy.

Mr O'Donnell: Very much so. The Housing Executive works through a number of figures. There is not a realistic expectation by the Housing Executive that 5,000 a year over the next five years will be deliverable. On the delivery of the 33,000 homes over the next 15 years, we all want that to be front-loaded. The reality is that budget is the immediate constraint and that all the other things in the housing supply strategy around infrastructure, planning and other measures start to bite.

We are probably all on the same page, in that we know that we are not able to deliver enough social housing at the minute, and the Minister has been successful in using a limited budget and stretching that as far as possible, including in the current year. Rather than pushing back on any figures, we are all focused on delivering that goal: 33,000 houses, at least, over 15 years.

Mr Allen: I appreciate that. Chair, we would probably need a session on that alone.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We need a lot of sessions on a lot of things alone. There is no question about that.

Minister, I have one final one that I want to flag with you before we let you go. I appreciate your time today. The subregional stadia announcement that you made a number of weeks ago contained an element that would increase the contribution from 5% to 40% in some situations. We have had concerns flagged to us in the Committee about the impact that that might have on some councils and maybe some other situations. We asked for that briefing to be brought forward, and the Department is working on it. In the interim, what engagement have you had with councils that will potentially be significantly impacted by that, and would you be prepared to consider extending the deadline to allow that engagement to take place and those concerns to be addressed?

Mr Lyons: On the 40% figure for councils, it is my understanding that the expectation was always that there would be a greater burden on their contribution than might otherwise have been the case, because they are public-sector organisations. Concern has certainly not been expressed to us. I have not seen any concern.

Ms Morelli: There was strong engagement with all councils as we developed the Northern Ireland Football Fund model. Departmental officials are coming to the Committee on 6 March to provide a full briefing session on the detail of that and will respond in full to queries. I will take that question back, but, at the moment, it is not on the Department's radar that there is an issue.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Potentially, there is a particular issue with Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Ms Morelli: Right, OK.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Maybe you could look at that specifically, and, if something needs to be addressed, will you be prepared to facilitate an extension to ensure that those concerns are resolved satisfactorily?

Ms Morelli: We need to understand the full detail behind the issue first.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK, fair enough. Thanks for that.

Minister, thank you very much. We appreciate your appearance today and wish you well with your multiple responsibilities. We look forward to seeing some key strategies coming forward to us soon and to those being as fulsome as they can be. Thank you