Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): I welcome Orla McStravick, assistant secretary, refugee and asylum seeker integration; Jonathan McNaught, refugee and asylum operations and Julie Cuming, refugee and asylum policy. Are members agreed that Hansard record the session?

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): I remind members to be brief and succinct with their questions, and that will allow our witnesses to give you fulsome answers.

You are very welcome, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. I now give you the opportunity to take the floor. I do not know who will go first, but introduce yourself and proceed. Thank you very much.

Mrs Orla McStravick (The Executive Office): I will make a few opening remarks and introduce Julie and Jonny. First, I thank the Committee for the opportunity to come and brief members today on the draft refugee integration strategy and the associated delivery framework. With me today are Julie Cuming, head of policy branch, and Jonny McNaught, head of operations branch in the Executive Office. Members will have received the draft strategy and the framework last week. I plan to keep most of our time today for comments, discussion and questions. To make the best use of that time, I will try to keep this opening statement reasonably short.

It may be helpful in setting the context to highlight the fact that the draft strategy seeks to set the overall high-level visions and outcomes that we collectively seek to achieve, and, indeed, those were welcomed during the public consultation process. Along with analysis of the public consultation, the strategy has been informed through research on the experiences of refugees living here, and we have also sought to learn from the Refugee and Asylum Forum's (RAF) 'Priorities for Action' paper and from the stakeholders who work in this area.

Whilst the strategy sets the high-level context, vision and outcomes, we have been collaborating with colleagues in Departments and other stakeholders to develop the draft delivery framework that sits alongside it. It does not intend to set out every action that every Department will take or is taking. A lot of it focuses on the key areas that those who seek protection and the organisations that support them have raised as priorities. There is a particular focus on trying to bring a more coordinated and cross-departmental approach to some of the issues, especially where they cut across boundaries, whilst putting the needs of individuals at the centre of our work. It is for that reason that our tactical delivery group (TDG) will play a key role in progressing that work with the strategic planning group that is fulfilling the oversight function. That seeks to ensure progress on a small number of issues incrementally to genuinely deliver. It also seeks to make the most effective use of existing and future resources and to tackle challenging issues by supporting and promoting collaborative working towards shared outcomes.

I appreciate that that is a very high-level overview. The intention is to bring a final draft strategy and framework to the Executive later this month to seek their agreement to publish. Today, we are keen to hear members' views in advance of Executive consideration and are happy to discuss any elements of the strategy or the delivery framework in more detail. Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Thank you very much for that. It is a welcome step forward to reach this point. I am disappointed to hear, however, that a further draft will be brought forward. When does a draft become a final document?

Mrs McStravick: It will have to go to the Executive after this. This is the proposed draft to bring to the Executive.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): OK. So, there is not another draft.

Mrs McStravick: No. This is the draft.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): I was worried that there was going to be another draft.

Mrs McStravick: No. It is just that, with a view to bringing the draft to the Executive for consideration, we welcome your views on it.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): OK. I note that you have highlighted issues for specific groups, particularly women, and you have raised issues for vulnerable Syrian persons in their resettlement scheme, but there are also good examples of best practice. To what extent can this potential strategy be pointed to as an example of Northern Ireland delivering best practice, or where should we go to look for best practice?

Mrs McStravick: We do a lot of work and have a lot of engagement with the other UK jurisdictions — Scotland, Wales and England — and, more recently, we have engaged with colleagues in the Republic of Ireland as well. Jonny's senior team will have engaged with the Scottish Refugee Council and the Scottish Government on how they have implemented resettlement schemes and support for anybody seeking refuge. We draw on a lot of that. We have regular cross-jurisdictional engagement with the people who lead on those areas to make sure that we can learn from anything that they are doing in the field. In the likes of the Ukraine context, there has been a more national approach to things. For example, English for speakers of other languages (ESOL) was provided for Ukrainians across the UK, rather than our doing things in isolation. A lot of that is already happening. We will continue to look to see where we can learn from others and where others can learn from the things that we have done and the best practice that we offer.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Presumably, Northern Ireland's population size and, in reality, the very small numbers of people who come to Northern Ireland as refugees pose benefits and challenges. Take the breadth of languages, for example: you may be looking for people to interpret across a broad range of languages, but, because of that range of places where people come from, you are not getting a lot of use of the service of each interpreter.

On the other hand, we presumably have opportunities for integration in comparison with other parts of the United Kingdom, where substantially larger refugee communities come into some areas. We have particularly small numbers, so is that an advantage or a disadvantage for us?

Mrs McStravick: We have small numbers, but in the context of our wider population, we tend to do certain things. For example, the Executive commitment to resettle those from Afghanistan was in proportion to our population percentage. A lot of the work is based on that context to make sure that we have the capacity to support those who are arriving and play our part in the response. All the schemes and how people arrive operate slightly differently.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Yes. Of course they do.

Mrs McStravick: Some are more geographically spread, and some are less so. We have tried to take the opportunity, particularly with asylum, to move to dispersal so that it is not all Belfast-centred. We are trying to widen the dispersal so that we get more diversity right across regional areas. We will build up the capacity and support more regionally, rather than having it be very localised. In reality, our numbers are small. If you look at London or other parts of England, you see that our numbers are much smaller. There can be challenges and opportunities with that. I would not disagree with you about that, but there are things that we can do to fully try to support those numbers and to create a regional approach to some of the challenges.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Finally, how does the strategy prepare settled communities in Northern Ireland for new people coming in? How is that work done?

Mrs McStravick: That is one of the reasons why we want the strategy. It is a two-way integration; it is not about bringing people here to integrate solely into our society. There are things in the delivery framework about communication and education, which is about not just supporting and helping people who arrive here but working with our existing communities to facilitate that two-way integration. A range of things has already been done, and we plan to do more in that space, particularly in light of the recent unrest last summer. In the delivery framework, we seek to work with the communities here to help facilitate that two-way integration process.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Recently, I visited Botanic Primary School with the secretary-general of the Commonwealth. We were incredibly impressed by the range of families, students and backgrounds and by the range of abilities of children in that primary school, which went from those who found integrating difficult to those whose parents teach at Queen's University. A broad diversity of people are coming in. What impressed me and the secretary-general of the Commonwealth was how well a primary school is working to integrate those children into the community. It was excellent work.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I thank those on the panel for their introductory remarks. Orla, I will pick up on one of the phrases that was used about the research. I am not sure how much research you have commissioned or what information there is about this, but there is a school of thought that says that some Europeans are more receptive to refugees and asylum seekers who have the same ethnicity and religious background. To what degree have you looked into that ? If you are going to deliver what you describe as a:

you will have to be hard-hitting and to the point. To what degree have you looked at that? There is no point in doing nice events that people self-select to go to.

Mrs McStravick: There was older research by Queen's University, and, as part of the strategy's development, the Department commissioned the Red Cross to do specific research with asylum seekers and refugees to get a sense of the barriers, challenges and issues that they face. We also had questions in the NI young life and times survey to get a sense of how receptive people are to refugees, asylum seekers and people arriving here.

We also commissioned updated research from the Red Cross. That is at completion stage. Research is one of the things that we are keen on in the delivery of the strategy, because we recognise that data in this space is quite difficult. A lot of the quantitative data is not always available, so we will have to supplement that quite a lot with research and look at attitudes and behaviours and the things that drive this. We plan to do that throughout the delivery of the strategy. We can look at that angle as part of it.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I appreciate that. I have been to myth-busting training sessions, and the people there have self-selected to go, so this is really about how we get through to those people who need to hear the messaging.

You mentioned the resource hub. Stewart mentioned the likes of Botanic Primary School and other inner south Belfast institutions. Have you identified who the key partners for the resource hub will be? In looking at the wider picture, what sort of budget do you anticipate being set for the implementation of the actions against the strategy?

Mrs McStravick: The likes of nidirect and TEO's website have a hub of information for people who are newly arrived here and need basic information. We have commissioned a piece of work on orientation for people who arrive here in order to explain to them key laws and things that they need to know on arrival. We have also been supporting councils with funding to start to try to develop things at a local level. Even though that will not be exactly the same in every council, it is one of the things that we are keen to build on so that we can see whether we can have some sort of minimum-quality support hub for people who might need to get information if they come into a different area. That is all being looked at.

On the budget, we draw down money for all our resettlement schemes as well as in the asylum space from the Home Office and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG). In the past two years, just over £10 million was available in one year and maybe just over £11 million in the year before. The numbers fluctuate, because they are dependent on arrivals, but we will be able to draw down a substantive amount of money from the UK Government to facilitate the schemes. One of the key things that we are looking at is how we can work better with other Departments to maximise the use of that money. We have been doing quite a lot. We had a recent workshop with Departments to ask, "Under the draft strategy and the delivery framework, where are our priorities and what can we do in that space that will have the most impact on and benefit for the people whom we are trying to support?" That was about how we can flip our approach to the use of that money, making sure that it is targeted at those interventions that will achieve the most and align to the outcomes that we are trying to achieve in the draft strategy.

We are looking at that in the context of where our priorities will be next year. The tactical delivery group will have a key role to play by taking on a number of the actions from the delivery framework, including looking at what we are going to do in that space, how we are going to deliver and how we will use the money that we get to do that in a more collective way, rather than taking the approach of saying, "Here's a wee bit of money for you, and here's a wee bit of money for you". We do not think that we are getting the best value out of that approach, so we can probably do better in that space.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. I have just been reminded what it was like trying to sit on these calls when your cat is trying to get on your knee, so apologies for the commotion there.

Another way of looking at it is through peer-to-peer support. There are a lot of really good, low-resourced community organisations, especially in south Belfast. People may be able to look at a website, but I think that those who have lived experience of navigating the system are probably best placed to advise. I take it that it is about balancing how you take this forward with finite resources. Is that what you are saying?

Mrs McStravick: Asylum dispersal means that Ukrainians can be based anywhere geographically. It is about building capacity in local communities. Some of the funding that we have given to councils has been for community and voluntary sector organisations to provide some of that support locally. They are best placed to do that. They work closely with asylum seekers, refugees and those who have been through different journeys with their integration. That is the bit that we are very keen to build on to see how we can make a model that will work right across all areas so that there is central support for people arriving, regardless of the geographical area that they go to. We are starting to have a conversation with councils about how we can build on what we have done to date and make it better.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you.

Mr Kingston: Thank you, Orla and colleagues, for coming in today. You identified in the paper some of the national undertakings for refugees from the likes of Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine and Hong Kong. Are you able to tell us anything about trends in asylum seekers from what we are seeing in the volume of people who are seeking asylum from not only national undertakings but those that are not planned, which means people who are just seeking asylum? Has there been any improvement in the processing of applications? A lot of things slowed down during COVID, so has there been any increase in the speed of processing?

Mrs McStravick: The Home Office processes asylum claims. The claims process is not devolved, so we do not have a role in it. The Home Office publishes quarterly statistics on the number of supported asylum seekers, so those figures are publicly available. The latest statistics were published in December 2024.

There was a backlog of asylum claims, which has been well publicised. The Home Office has tried to streamline that process and expedite claims. We have seen a significant increase in the number of people who are getting their asylum decisions then going into what we refer to as the move-on process. To date, the majority have been granted refugee status and have been able to stay here as refugees.

You asked about trends. We are seeing an increase in those numbers, and that was an increase that we knew was coming as a result of the Home Office policy on streamlining the asylum decision-making process.

Mr Kingston: Does that mean increasing the speed of the process?

Mrs McStravick: Yes. Essentially, it was about clearing the backlog that had built up.

Mr Kingston: You talked about dispersal, which, I presume, is about avoiding concentrations in different parts of Northern Ireland. Can you comment on any changes in housing policy? Has there been a reduction in the use of hotels? I think that there has, but can that be officially confirmed?

Mrs McStravick: The Home Office's intention has always been to reduce the reliance on hotel accommodation. The current trend that we are seeing is a reduction in the number of hotels that are being used. We are also seeing a reduction in the average length of time that people are staying in hotels. Generally, that is aligned more to what was originally for initial accommodation, when you would maybe have been in an hotel for a number of weeks and then moved out into dispersed accommodation. The trend is moving back to that approach, and yes, hotel numbers are reducing. The hotels are not all closed yet, but the intention is to reduce the reliance on hotel accommodation.

Mr Kingston: I want to ask about community cohesion. There is a major issue in that. We have seen tensions in some areas, which is part of a wider picture. What resource is put into areas where those tensions have existed? What resource is put in for those who arrive here seeking asylum to help them to familiarise themselves with and understand society in Northern Ireland so that they are not just waiting about? What are they able to do? They are not able to work, so how are they supported to be productive during their day and to play a role in society?

Mrs McStravick: When contingency accommodation was involved, a lot of services went into the hotels. There were ESOL classes and things happening in some of the contingency accommodation arrangements. Voluntary and community sector groups were going in and offering different things as well. Working with other Departments, we have looked at service delivery more widely. There were a lot of issues with navigating access to health and other services. It is different under a resettlement scheme, when key workers might be aligned to that scheme. Asylum is very different, however. We looked at the models that had been in place for that and were able to utilise the money that we got last year to put in place a family support model and early intervention-type approach, which takes qualified professionals to work together to help people in the asylum system to navigate processes, get access to services when they need them and to be just supported in the way that other arrivals coming here through a formal scheme would be.

Again, we will continue to look to build on that, and I know that other Departments have tried to rework their services and how they deliver things to try to support those who are arriving through the asylum system. We had the family health clinic that operated in hotels, and Health and Education colleagues were there to get kids registered for school, get them access to initial health assessments and register them with a GP etc. Quite a bit was done in that space.

I will move on to community cohesion. On the back of last summer's unrest, money was provided to Belfast City Council and has been allocated to a number of areas across Belfast to help with that community cohesion piece. We have also been working with partners on the back of that and have submitted a proposal. It has not come in through us. It was done through the Housing Executive and partners for funding under the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) for a piece of work on working with communities where tensions can be particularly challenging. It was based on a previous project that worked through the Housing Executive. It is about that two-way integration and trying to enhance community cohesion in some of those areas.

Mr Kingston: Chair, if there are reports on the funding that has been allocated or the programmes that exist on community cohesion, I would be interested in requesting that information.

Mrs McStravick: We have a proposal for funding for that. It has not happened yet. We are waiting on an outcome from SEUPB on the funding application. It did not go in through TEO; it went in through the Housing Executive and partners, but we worked closely with them on its development. On the wider funding more generally, we can certainly provide an overview of how allocations have been provided from the money that came in from the Home Office and MHCLG.

Mr Kingston: Does that include Belfast City Council and that funding?

Mrs McStravick: It went directly to Belfast City Council from the Home Office. I am not sure whether the council has published — it may have done so recently — what it will be doing yet. The proposal went to the council's committee a couple of weeks ago, I think, so there is a programme of work that Belfast City Council is taking forward. Again, it did not come via TEO, but we link in with Belfast City Council officials on how that is being used to make sure that we are aligning and not duplicating anything in that space and to ensure that it complements our work.

Mr Kingston: OK.

Ms Murphy: Thanks for that comprehensive briefing, Orla. What is the make-up of the strategic planning group (SPG)? Is it cross-departmental?

Mrs McStravick: It is cross-departmental. It is chaired by TEO, and other Departments are on it. Other statutory bodies are also on it, such as the Education Authority and the PSNI. The Home Office also sits on the group, as does a representative from the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE), so the councils are represented. It is quite a wide group and is basically our strategic and governance oversight body, so a lot of the key decisions go to SPG, but I have to be honest and say that it really has helped us to get that cross-departmental work. Compared with where we were a couple of years ago, the SPG has been a key driver in getting us to where we are today in the engagement and cooperation across Departments.

Ms Murphy: How often does it meet?

Mrs McStravick: It meets quarterly. The tactical delivery group, which is more the operational arm, sits beneath it. The SPG will task the tactical delivery group if a specific issue has come up, if there is a policy implication or if something has happened. The TDG will then look at that and ask, "How can we address that, and what can we do in that space?" The family support model was an example of our looking at how, in the asylum context, we could provide the same sort of support that key workers are providing. That then went to SPG, which then agreed it and allocated the funding from the money that we get from the Home Office to it. It has worked quite well, and we are keen to maintain and build on that.

Ms Murphy: You named a few stakeholders. I assume that the Housing Executive is included in that branch as well.

Mrs McStravick: Yes.

Ms Murphy: Thank you for that. Some of the outcomes have been mentioned in the draft. Under outcome 1, the first key action is about the establishment of "local coordination and engagement mechanisms". How, at a practical level, will those mechanisms manifest? Will you be relying on existing organisations? Will brand-new groupings be set up? How will that play out in reality?

Mrs McStravick: We will have the SPG and the TDG. I know that the strategy is coming formally only now, but we have been working at it over the past year or two. We have been keen to try to do things as we have gone along that are aligned to the strategy so that we do not stand still whilst we get a final strategy agreed. That was how the TDG came about. We also set up a voluntary and community sector forum and a council engagement group as part of those structures. We are very mindful of the fact that a new approach to racial equality will be developed and that a lot is going on in the wider minority ethnic community. We are looking at how we can streamline some of that work in the Department and the structures that go alongside that, because we do not want to duplicate things that are there. There are other forums, such as the regional delivery group (RDG), which was a Home Office-led group, that we are keen to look at to see how we could bring some of them along and make them meaningful without duplicating work. We have already made some progress on that, but there are still things that we feel that we could do to streamline some of the structures and make sure that we get input from lived experience.

Ms Murphy: Thank you, Orla.

Mr Gaston: I have a couple of quick, hopefully, queries. On page 3 of your briefing paper, you state:

One point in that sticks out for me. What are "thank you payments"? Are they Westminster-funded, and how much is a thank you payment?

Mrs McStravick: They are part of the Homes for Ukraine scheme that the UK Government established for people who host Ukrainians or provided a house for them. The Home Office provided a thank you payment of £350 a month, going up to £500 after two years and then back down to £350. We have to provide the thank you payment to people who are hosting from here because that is part of the overall scheme.

Mr Gaston: Is that funded by Westminster?

Mrs McStravick: Yes.

Mr Gaston: Page 4 of the briefing states:

The Assad regime in Syria has fallen. Give us some feedback. Are people who have settled here looking to go back home, or, once they settle in the UK and have set up a home, is that them setting up a home with this being their new place of residence?

Mrs McStravick: Do you mean anybody who has arrived?

Mr Gaston: Yes. That is an example.

Mrs McStravick: It depends on the scheme that they have arrived under and what it offers. For example, Homes for Ukraine is not a route to settlement. When the Home Office set up that scheme, it made it very clear that it was to allow people to come here whilst it is not safe for them to be in Ukraine, with the intention being that they would return to Ukraine at a later point. The Home Office policy is that it is not a route to settlement and that people will not be able to stay here. The scheme for Syrians is for five years, after which they can apply for indefinite leave to remain and then for citizenship. The entitlements for people who arrive depend on how the Home Office established the scheme.

Mr Gaston: For the likes of the Syrian scheme, of the 1,800 people, have many signalled —?

Mrs McStravick: Once people have been here for five years and are supported, we would not hold a record of whether they leave or choose to go elsewhere. They are just like anybody else in the population, depending on their visa status and the conditions on their staying here. They could move to England, Scotland or Wales, but we would not hold a record of that.

Mr Gaston: On page 6 of the draft strategy, you deal with the fact that the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Act 2024 was struck down because of article 2 of the Windsor framework. Has TEO examined what would happen if there were a divergence between migration law in NI and migration law in the UK because we are subject to EU law? Has TEO considered or done any work on that?

Mrs McStravick: Immigration policy is not a devolved matter — it is an excepted matter — so we do not have control over immigration policy. That is all Westminster-led, so whatever the Westminster legislation is, it applies here.

Mr Gaston: Through the Windsor framework or the protocol, is there no danger of that ever changing?

Mrs McStravick: There may be challenges. Organisations may bring forward judicial reviews or whatever, but that is not something that TEO can control.

Mrs Julie Cuming (The Executive Office): It is fair to say that we work closely with Westminster colleagues when there is a new policy or new legislation that is in the excepted space and that impacts on us locally, so we can put forward any concerns or issues and, hopefully, negotiate some kind of mitigation for our bespoke circumstances.

Mrs McStravick: We try to inform that development, but, ultimately, whatever comes out the other side, effectively, applies here.

Mr Gaston: Service provision is dealt with on page 12. One of those services is:

How many people have arrived in the UK or Northern Ireland that way?

Mrs McStravick: As an unaccompanied asylum seeker?

Mr Gaston: Yes.

Mrs McStravick: I do not have the figures for that. Department of Health colleagues deal with unaccompanied asylum seekers. I do not know the figure off the top of my head. I do not think that it is a big number; it is small, but I do not want to mislead you by giving you a wrong figure.

Mr Gaston: Certainly, one person arriving that way is too many. In this day and age, it is scary to think that such a thing goes on.

I have one final question, Deputy Chair, if I may. This is something about immigration that I have grappled with for a long time. Why are so many people choosing to spend maybe hundreds or thousands of pounds to come here in small boats when they could come through an airport with a visa in the same way as if they were coming for a holiday? That would probably work out cheaper for them.

Mrs McStravick: We generally do not get small boat arrivals. They would arrive into England and generally do not come here by that method. Again, we are not a dispersal area. If somebody arrives into England in a small boat, we are not formally a dispersal area at a UK level. It is not likely that those individuals would be moved and supported here. The asylum seekers who are here are those who have arrived directly, which is generally not on small boats.

Mr Gaston: Are they coming through airports, mainly? Obviously, England has a problem with people coming in boats, so are you saying that people who come here arrive through our airports, mainly?

Mrs McStravick: People arrive here in a range of ways. It could be in a lorry or by some sort of smuggling or trafficking. It could be that they are coming into an airport to seek asylum there, or it could be that they are coming in via the South. They can arrive here in a range of ways, but, logistically, it does not tend to be in small boats, because it is not an easy route.

Mrs Cuming: An individual cannot claim asylum from outside. If they want to claim asylum in the UK, they have to come into the UK to claim it. They cannot apply from elsewhere; they have to come here to claim asylum. Most of our arrivals are spontaneous. A lot more people come by that route than come though resettlement routes.

Mr Gaston: Whether it is somebody arriving in a boat or in the back of a lorry, it is the same sort of criminal gang that chooses to come that way. It strikes me as odd that somebody could come via an aeroplane with all their documents and claim the same way, and it would probably end up cheaper for them than it would be to come through that illegal route.

Mrs McStravick: I do not really think that we can comment on how people choose to arrive. When people are here, our role is to look at how we support that integration. Immigration policy is not devolved, so we do not have any control over or role in routes of arrival or anything like that. That is all part of wider immigration policy. If someone is here under a resettlement scheme or a visa scheme, seeking refuge for whatever reason, including asylum, our role is to support that integration. I cannot answer your question about why people would choose to come on a small boat rather than on a train or through an airport —

Mr Gaston: Or in the back of the lorry, because it is the same sort of way through.

Mrs McStravick: — or by whatever route. I dare say that it is not a decision that someone would take lightly, but we are not directly involved in the routes of arrival.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): In reality, by comparison, I do not think that people are being smuggled through airports.

Mr Gaston: That is the point that I am making.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): They do not.

Mr Gaston: A number of people who choose to come here and who have their documents can present in Northern Ireland and claim asylum. However, a lot of people pay hundreds and thousands of pounds through criminal gangs to get here.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): If you have your documents, and they are legal documents, you have a legal right to be here, because you will have received a visa. That is a very long and expensive process, which is done through the UK Government, that is done in the country that the individual is coming from. I doubt that there are very many illegal migrants who come via airlines into the United Kingdom, unless they are travelling on false papers, which is also a fairly rare occurrence, particularly with airlines and customs and Border Force monitoring all that. I just think that that is rare.

Mrs McStravick: The challenge is that most of them may not have passports or the ability to travel. Unfortunately, people are, in many cases —.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): Unfortunately, people pay large amounts of money for boats and to hide in lorries and vehicles, and, terribly sadly, we see the consequences of that when you see people who were holed up in those vehicles die in those vehicles. People who want to get here spend lots of money and go on appalling routes and through appalling people who are people trafficking. When they get here, however, they have a legal right in the United Kingdom to be treated not only humanely but in accordance with our laws. We should be very proud of the laws that we have in the United Kingdom, which deliver asylum to those who are entitled to it and remove those who are not.

Mr Harvey: This question is similar to one of Timothy's, so what about helping people to get back home when it is time, when it is safe for them or when they desire it? Is there a resettlement strategy or a process to help them to do that when it is time?

Mrs McStravick: If somebody claims asylum and their claim is not upheld such that they do not have a legal right to be here, the Home Office provides support for returns to bring people back to their home country or to somewhere where it is safe for them. If it is not safe, it provides support for that person, so there is that.

If people have been here for a long time and just decide that, for whatever reason, they want to go back to where they came from or to go somewhere else, there is no formal support for that. That is something that they do. In the Ukraine context, the intention is that people will eventually go back. The Home Office, with MHCLG, which delivers the scheme, has the Ukraine permission extension scheme to allow people to stay here for longer because it is not necessarily safe for people to go back. Questions have been asked of us, and, indeed, we have asked whether there will be support for people to go back when the time is right, but they are not at that stage yet, so no decisions have been taken on that.

Mr Harvey: Does the Home Office make a decision about when it is safe for them to do so?

Mrs McStravick: If the person is a failed asylum seeker, that is, they have not had their asylum claim upheld so do not get refugee status, the Home Office will offer returns, but it takes into consideration whether it is safe for a person to go back to a specific area or a specific part of a country. If there are other reasons why that person cannot return there, the Home Office will look at those. It will not just send a person back to somewhere but will look at whether there is another part of the country they can go to —

Mr Harvey: Alternatives.

Mrs McStravick: — or whether it will continue to support them until it can facilitate a return.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Dickson): I do not see any other members wanting to ask questions, so I take this opportunity to thank you. We look forward to the final policy. I believe that we have until 12 March. If members who have gone through the document have specific questions or queries that were not raised or answered today, please raise them through the Committee Clerk and they can be submitted to the Department. Of course, because this is an open public consultation, members are equally free to do that themselves. With regard to the Committee view on the report, if members have views, they can let the Committee Clerk have them and we will send them to the Department.

Again, thank you very much for coming today. That has been very helpful.