Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome Dr Rosemary Agnew and Aveen McMullan. We probably covered most of the ground at last week's policy briefing, but is there anything that you would like to brief us on in relation to the SL1 or any other matters?

Dr Rosemary Agnew (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you, Mr Chairman. From the Department's point of view, we are aware of your concerns about the late tabling of papers. I know that we are working to address that, and I apologise for the late tabling of today's papers. I am not totally au fait with when you received them, but we will certainly look into that from the Department's perspective.

I also thank you for the opportunity to bring the negative statutory rule (SR) to the Committee to put in place a suckler cow scheme. As you said, the Committee received an oral policy briefing on the scheme last week. You have outlined the objectives of the scheme. The Suckler Cow Scheme Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2025 give DAERA the legal powers to introduce the scheme from 1 April 2025. The regulations set into legislation the annual targets for age at first calving and for calving interval; the eligibility criteria for farm businesses and animals; the Northern Ireland quantitative limit of 220,000 calving events per annum; and a payment rate of £100 for each eligible calving event.

I will finish there, Chair and members. Aveen and I will be happy to answer any questions that members have on the regulations.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, Rosemary, I really appreciate that. Thank you for last week's in-depth briefing. I will go straight to members, because I know that there is some interest. Then, perhaps, I will do a wash-up.

Mr McAleer: Thank you for that presentation. I got some details of the event at Loughry college in Cookstown, which was very helpful. I have been speaking to farmers who attended the roadshows organised by the Department to explain the sustainable agriculture programme (SAP), including the suckler scheme. The feedback has been good, and I believe that you have a few more events planned for this week, Rosemary, so well done on that.

The Department has set a regional quota of 220,000 calving events. It had been discussed or mooted previously that there might be a farm quota, effectively. Is there a danger that, if you set a regional quota, the large farms will eat up all of that at the expense of smaller farms?

Dr Agnew: Thank you very much, Declan, for your comments about the events that you mentioned.

We have set a regional quantitative limit or quota of 220,000 calving events. Those calving events can be for a live calf or a dead calf, provided that that calf is bovine viral diarrhoea (BVD)-sampled, registered and tagged. Initially, we had considered on-farm quotas. The Minister asked us to ensure that the schemes that we were bringing forward were as simple and accessible as possible and less bureaucratic and to look at all of those elements in their development. We felt that we needed to set that quantitative limit at a regional level for Northern Ireland in the same way as the beef carbon reduction one. We pursued that, and the Minister agreed to it. We will continually review the scheme in order to look for any unintended consequences, such as the one that you have highlighted.

The Minister has asked us to review the scheme six months in and two years in. That has been set in motion in our programme plan. Should there be unintended consequences, we will brief the Committee and take swift action to mitigate them. At its worst, a swift action might be to revoke the SR completely, if we see an unintended consequence. Obviously, that is not where we want to be, because the scheme is open to all farmers who have suckler cows, provided that they meet the requirements for age at first calving and calving intervals. We hope that there will not be a huge expansion of animals on larger farms. If there is, we will need to step in and take action on the scheme.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Rosemary. The briefing note states that, if the quota is exceeded, there will be a linear reduction. How is that done? What will it mean? How will it be implemented?

Dr Agnew: I will ask Aveen to take that one.

Ms Aveen McMullan (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thanks, Declan. If the Northern Ireland quantitative limit of 222,000 calving events a year is exceeded, linear reduction will be applied at farm level. If the quantitative limit is exceeded by, say, 10%, there will be a similar percentage reduction on each farm business and the number of calving events that will receive payment. That is how it will work.

Mr McAleer: Thanks, Aveen.

I will double back: there will be a six-month review, and, if, for example, you discover that a particular farming sector has been disadvantaged or disproportionately impacted on, the Department will look at that.

Dr Agnew: Absolutely. Yes. There is a six-month review and a review after two years. If we discover an unintended consequence of the scheme during those reviews, we will look at what we can do to mitigate that. As I said, the most draconian measure would be to come to the Committee to revoke the SR because of the unintended consequence, but we hope not to go there.

Mr McAleer: That is great. I know that the roadshow is coming to the West Tyrone constituency next Thursday. Do you have the dates of the other ones, Rosemary, by any chance?

Dr Agnew: I will ask you to keep that question until Albert joins me for the next item of business, because he is leading those events from a College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE) point of view.

Mr McAleer: I got ahead of myself. I keep doing that. Thank you.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you, Rosemary and Aveen. You mentioned the linear reduction that will be imposed if the calving events exceed 222,000. What happens if the calving events do not exceed 222,000? Is there a linear enhancement?

Dr Agnew: Not at this point. We are keen to look at the six-month review and the two-year review to see what we do with the quantitative limit. As we explained last week, the quantitative limit is the average over three years of the calving events that happen on farms. Hopefully, therefore, there will be a good opportunity for farmers to increase their number of eligible calving events in order to receive a payment.

You are really asking what happens if there is headroom. At this stage, we have no plans to change the quantitative limit. That will fit into the review that we will undertake. To be realistic, it is unlikely that we will change that after six months. After two years, there will probably be more opportunity to have a proper, more detailed look at it. If it were, let us say, the right thing to do on the basis of the evidence, we would look at that and come forward with proposals for change.

Miss McIlveen: An additional concern is that, if the limit is not met and there is additional money left over in the scheme, the money should be retained in the scheme as opposed to going back into the Department to be used elsewhere.

Dr Agnew: As you know, the Executive have indicated in their consultation that the budget is earmarked for agriculture, agrienvironment and rural development. They have been specific about those three issues, so the budget will have to remain in activities associated with them. I cannot tell you what will happen, but, certainly, the plan is that the funding will be maintained, for example, in the SAP.

Miss McIlveen: OK. We had a discussion before about the opening of the scheme and the fact that the time frame is now from April to the end of March. I have had a bit of feedback from farmers who feel, perhaps, that the dates are not what they are used to and that it may take some time to get used to and manage that change. There are deadlines in the farming calendar that farmers have to get their heads around. Regardless of the budgetary issues, was any thought given to looking at it as a calendar year?

Dr Agnew: We looked at it as a calendar year, but, as we explained last week, to delay it to 2026 would have a significant impact on our greenhouse gas emissions, which we have modelled as part of our climate action plan. There was also great interest from a number of farm businesses and organisations in getting the scheme out there. We were trying to find a balance that would work.

We recognise that the spread in calving events covers the months of January through to December. I think that we provided figures on that to the Committee: if we did not, we can do so. I am looking at them: they range from 4% of calving events in January through to 19% in April and then back to 4% in November. Quite a range of calving events is registered in the Northern Ireland food animal information system (NIFAIS). Irrespective of where we started the year, there was always going to be an issue.

To help farmers — we can speak a little more about that when we come on to knowledge — one of the areas specific to the suckler cow scheme is that a full suite of knowledge packages will become available to help farmers to achieve the target and understand the schemes. In the next session, Albert Johnston can pick up on how there is a presentation at the events on achieving the targets in the suckler cow scheme. As far as possible, we are trying to help and to provide the knowledge and information.

Miss McIlveen: I have also had a bit of feedback from those who are not in the beef sector: because they do not have cattle, they feel a little disadvantaged by the scheme.

Dr Agnew: There are beef cattle on a significant number of our farms. Off the top of my head, there are beef cattle on around 17,000 of the 24,000 farms, unless Aveen gives me a different number.

Ms McMullan: That is correct.

Dr Agnew: Therefore, a small number of farms will potentially be disadvantaged. However, those farms will have the opportunity to avail themselves of other schemes, such as the farm sustainability transition payment, the farm sustainability payment and the Farming with Nature package that will be rolled out later in the year.

I recognise and hear what you say. We respond to many queries about disadvantages from various sectors, but the beef carbon reduction scheme and the suckler cow scheme have been in development since 2022. We are resource-constrained, and we will gradually get to all the other sectors.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you very much.

Ms Murphy: Thank you, Aveen and Rosemary for coming in. Rosemary, given the fact that all farms that calve before 1 April will not be eligible, a lot of them, no doubt, will face some cash flow issues. Are there any measures in place for those who may be affected?

Dr Agnew: All farmers who meet the calving interval and the eligible calving events targets over the four-year period will be eligible for payment on all their cows. Each year in that four-year period runs from April to March. I will push back a little at you: I do not think that just because they calve in January, February and March, they are disadvantaged. In fact, the data that we hold shows that only 4% of suckler herds have calving events solely between January and March.

Ms Murphy: Just go over that stat again, Rosemary.

Dr Agnew: Only 4% of suckler herds — about 500 — have calving events only between January and March. We have looked at and examined that. Aveen showed me a stat a few minutes ago: there are 13,000 suckler herds.

Ms Murphy: Have you broken that percentage down to a specific number? Have you data on the number of farms? I know that it is 4%, but how many farmers are affected?

Dr Agnew: It is around 500 farms.

Ms Murphy: I have another question. The equality impact assessment and rural needs assessment are mentioned in the tabled papers. Maybe they are included somewhere in the pack, but I have not seen them. Can the Committee get both of the assessments that were carried out by the Department?

Dr Agnew: Absolutely, they will be published on the Department's website as part of our normal practice anyway. I do not believe that they have been forwarded to the Committee in this instance, but, certainly, now that they are complete, they can be shared with the Committee.

Mr Irwin: I thank Rosemary and the team. We all accept, I think, that the briefing that we got in Cookstown a few weeks ago was useful. Is it the case that only farms that currently keep suckler cows will be eligible? Is there no room for new farmers to come into the scheme?

Dr Agnew: Any farm that holds suckler cows can take part in the scheme, but there is s proviso. If someone starts up a suckler herd in year 2 of the scheme, they need to meet the targets in year 2 of the scheme; they cannot come in at year 1. The scheme is not open only to farms that currently have suckler cows: it allows new entrants, but they have to meet the targets in the year in which they join the scheme. That is the year that they first enter, apply or opt in to the scheme. Each farm business can opt in to the entire scheme at the beginning of the four-year period, or, if they come in at year 2 or year 3, they can opt in at year 2 or year 3, and that opts them in for the remainder of the scheme.

Mr Irwin: That is good. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Do any other members have questions for Rosemary?

I have a wee technical one. I want to be careful in how I ask it. I want to get some detail, but I am certainly not asking for an addition to the SR at this stage. Table 3 sets out some of the conditions that, on the basis of NIFAIS, would exclude a payment. One of them is:

What does "unknown" signify? Is that reasonable? Is it a carry-across from previous schemes? As I said, I do not want to add to the SR, but what is the difference between BVD, which is a precursor, and TB, which is not mentioned in the table?

Dr Agnew: Aveen, do you want to answer the question about BVDU?

Ms McMullan: BVD unknown means that there has been no confirmatory test result to show that the animal has either a positive or negative test result. Normally, once that test result comes through on the NIFAIS system, the code changes from BVDU to the appropriate status. Therefore, it should apply for only a short time in the animal's life.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I hope that this is not an unfair question: how close are we to addressing bovine viral diarrhoea?

Dr Agnew: That is a question for our colleagues in the veterinary service animal health group. I know that they will brief you on that.

On your question about TB, we discussed at some length with our NIFAIS and veterinary colleagues which of the NIFAIS acronyms, if I may call them that, we should put into the scheme at its beginning. Those are the ones that are, we feel, appropriate at this time, but we recognise that TB is sort of the elephant in the room. At this point, however, I suppose that, when it comes to a herd that has TB, provided that all the biosecurity and testing arrangements are being followed, why should that farmer be disadvantaged if there is a calving event on that farm? That is the way that I would pose it. At this point, we do not feel that we would want to disadvantage that farm.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Good answer. I like that, Rosemary. Thank you very much.

Members, are you content? OK.

Members, are we agreed that the Department proceed to make the SR? We will then consider it and the SR report in due course.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you.