Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome the officials to brief the Committee on a statutory rule (SR) and to answer any questions on their briefing. I do not think that Dr Rosemary Agnew has even changed seats since the previous evidence session.

Dr Rosemary Agnew (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): No, I did not. I just sat here, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): We also have Mr Albert Johnston, the acting head of the knowledge advisory service — what a title.

We are expecting big things of you now, just so that you know that.

Mr Albert Johnston (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Please brief the Committee.

Dr Agnew: Albert will lead on this one.

Mr Johnston: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity to bring forward to the Committee the negative statutory rule to put in place the legislation for the farming for sustainability knowledge scheme. At the meeting on 2 July 2024, the Committee received a briefing on the knowledge schemes. The farming for sustainability knowledge schemes, which are part of the sustainable agriculture programme (SAP), seeks to widen DAERA's knowledge transfer provision by providing a suite of flexible and accessible interventions to meet the range of knowledge needs of people who work in farm businesses. Those interventions will include information, training and peer-learning groups.

In developing the scheme, consultations have been held with the agricultural policy stakeholder group (APSG) as part of the ongoing engagement regarding the sustainable agriculture programme. The Farming for Sustainability Knowledge Transfer Payments Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2025 give DAERA the legal powers to make payments of £786 to eligible farm businesses for hosting visits as part of the scheme. Also included is a specific payment of £445 to eligible farm businesses that are in business sustainability groups to support individual and group learning. The rule will be laid before the Assembly under the negative resolution procedure, and it is anticipated that it will come into operation on 1 April 2025.

Mr Chairman, Rosemary and I are happy to answer any questions that members may have on the regulations.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Excellent. Thank you so much. I am just getting the regulations open. On the face of it, it is a good scheme. For the facilitation of an on-site visit, a number of things need to be put in place to ensure biosecurity and all those things, so it does not come without some work for those who will enter the scheme.

I have a functional question on the time of day that will suit to facilitate something. Is it expected that it will be delivered in a nine-to-five space, or will it be flexible, working around the times of the business to minimise the disruption to a farm business?

Mr Johnston: Mr Chairman, we recognise that there is a wide spread in our agriculture industry. Some farmers work full-time and some part-time. In our previous business development groups and knowledge transfer schemes, we delivered a range of our knowledge programmes during the day and in the evenings. Again, it is our intention that the timing of the events will be scheduled to suit the availability of those who work in the industry and the needs of agriculture and farm businesses. Again, we are flexible, and we will address specific needs. The events will be timed to suit farmers.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): The papers state that the cost of running the scheme will be £3·1 million over five years. What is the anticipated uptake, or what ambition do you have for uptake annually?

Mr Johnston: In year 1 of the scheme, it is planned, subject to ministerial approval, that we will recruit up to 1,300 participants into business sustainability groups and 1,300 farm businesses into themed groups. That will increase over a five-year period to 1,800 farm businesses in each group. Funding is also available for the other knowledge levels of information and training. That makes up the full component of that average payment a year.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Finally from me, is there an anticipated demographic of farmer, or will the scheme mesh with the Farming for the Generations programme, for instance? Is any overlap with any other schemes that are part of the SAP anticipated?

Mr Johnston: The programmes are open to all farm businesses, so we encourage representation and applications from all businesses and from those across all sectors, age and gender. We are very open, and, through our recruitment for our knowledge transfer programmes, we will seek to promote them widely so that we can get as many people as possible involved in all levels.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Mr McAleer: Thank you for the information. I certainly see the logic of hosting events on farms in order to share knowledge and information. I know farmers and local business development groups that avail themselves of that type of event.

This question is probably addressed in the regulations — there is reference to the importance of biosecurity and health and safety — but, if you host an event on your farm, how does the indemnity work?

Mr Johnston: We ask each farm business that hosts a visit to have its own public liability insurance. That is reflected in one of the elements that link to the provision of the payment. Businesses largely have that as part of their core farm business insurance, and we check that it is in place prior to the event on the farm.

Mr McAleer: Does that mean that the onus is on the host farm —

Mr Johnston: The host farmer would have that.

Mr McAleer: — to ensure that it has public liability insurance? Could that be a deterrent? Does every farm have public liability insurance?

Mr Johnston: Generally, we did not find that to be an issue in the previous programme. For farm businesses that do not have it in place as standard, some insurance companies are willing to put cover in place for the event.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Albert.

Mr McGlone: Thank you for your presentation. Can you tell me what the £445 is for, please?

Mr Johnston: From our evaluation of our previous programmes, we found that, to add value to peer-to-peer learning, it is important for farmers not only to have access to information to help inform their decisions about their farm but to share it with others in that group. The £445 is to support the farmer with the collection, analysis and presentation of the data and with attending the meetings to share it. In our previous programme, DAERA funded data collectors to go on to farms to collect the data and support the farmers. However, as part of this programme, we are giving the farmer the responsibility and saying, "Here is the money. You can use it to get the necessary support to collect the information, or you can bring in expertise to help collect relevant data to help you make decisions about your farm".

Mr McGlone: What information are you talking about?

Mr Johnston: There can be a wide range. Our previous programmes mainly focused on financial details, such as benchmarking gross margin and net profit, but we recognise that businesses are moving towards focusing on sustainability, so the data that is collected will be on a range of things, including finance, grass growth, herd performance data, such as calving interval or age at first calving, and a wide range of sustainability measures. The payment is to support the farm business owner to either collect and analyse the data or bring in the expertise to support them in collecting it.

Mr McGlone: I understand the incentivisation of it, but you will not get a wild pile of expertise for £445.

Mr Johnston: A lot of the data is readily available to the farmer, as it is part of their VAT records, milk records or beef sales. The money is a bit of resource to help them to collate it and pull it into a format for presentation that can help the farmer to make the necessary decisions about their farm and to share it with the group so that they can say, "This is how I addressed a specific problem, and this is the information that I used to address that problem".

Dr Agnew: As part of the sustainable agriculture programme, for example, we have the soil nutrient health scheme, which the Department already funds. Through that, we hope to fund the carbon footprinting of farms, and the learner support payment will incentivise the farmer to share that information, which the Department has helped him to obtain, with his colleagues so that they can discuss the mitigations that they use to improve their nutrient management plan or reduce their carbon footprint. All those things will be teased out in the groups, and they will discuss the technical information that is needed. We hope that the host farmer will be able to say, "I have done this, and it has reduced my emissions by that", or, "This is what my soil analysis is. I have developed this nutrient management plan, and, as a result, I have used x tons less fertiliser, which has made my farm more profitable". That is how profitability links to environmental sustainability.

Mr McGlone: One wee thing has popped into my head. Is that fund taxable? Is it grant or income?

Dr Agnew: We will need to take that one away. We are not HMRC, so we need to look at that.

Mr McGlone: I know that you are not, but the farmer could be.

Mr Johnston: It is a source of income. That would probably need to be discussed with an accountant to get clear guidance on it.

Mr McGlone: If it is a source of income, that is what it is; it is not a grant.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): No other members have any questions, but I have a technical one. It is not overly technical, so it may be picked up in the guidance. Article 4 refers to a farm not being suitable:

Who decides that?

Mr Johnston: Farms that are not suitable for hosting an event can host it at an alternative venue. Before any event takes place, we receive advice from our veterinary service about whether that farm business is under any TB restrictions. If there is a TB restriction on the farm due to biosecurity, we would not host a visit on that farm, but that does not exclude that farm business from availing itself of the payment; they can have the meeting at an alternative venue. The farmer comes along with their information, explains how they are managing that element of their business to their peers and —.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): There is a list of biosecurity issues, such as avian flu and TB. What about the health and safety reasons?

Mr Johnston: We work with farms to do a health and safety risk assessment on a farm prior to a visit to ensure that everything is safe before the group attends.

Dr Agnew: Chair, I am conscious that I did not answer Declan's earlier question about awareness events. Declan, I cannot really remember your question, other than that you asked where the next events were.

Mr McAleer: Yes. I know that there will be some in my part of the world in West Tyrone next Thursday, but this is an opportunity to remind people about the public information events that are lined up for this week and next week, Albert.

Mr Johnston: So far, we have had four events, which have been well attended. There is an event today in Coleraine in the Bushtown Hotel, with information events throughout the day and again at 7.30 pm this evening. We have two events scheduled for next week, one in Strabane on Monday and another in Ballynahinch next Wednesday, which is the final one in the series of seven. We encourage all farmers and farm businesses to attend those events to hear the full details of the sustainable agriculture programme. It is also an opportunity for them to discuss with College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE) advisers and staff the details of each of the schemes and how those can benefit their farm business.

Mr McAleer: Albert, am I right in saying that the events last the entire day? There are presentations at 11.00 am, 2.30 pm and then in the evening, and farmers can have one-to-ones in between those times. Is that right?

Mr Johnston: Yes. As you said, Declan, the presentations are at 11.00 am, 2.00 pm and 7.30 pm. After the presentations, the attendees can speak to others. They are free to stay. We encourage everybody who attends one of those events not to leave with any questions or issues unanswered. If we are unable to answer a question at the event, we will take the details of those folks and provide them with the necessary information.

Mr McAleer: That is a good format. Not every farmer wants to speak in a public forum, especially if it is about their own business. That is a good opportunity for them to have a one-to-one as well.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Just for accuracy, the events are being held in the Fir Trees Hotel in Strabane and the Millbrook Lodge hotel in Ballynahinch. Again for accuracy, I do not think that you meant that people get a free stay. [Laughter.]

That is just in case the Department ends up with lots of bills from people saying, "Well, Albert said it was a free stay".

Mr Johnston: No, it is not an overnight stay.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much, and well picked up.

Are members agreed that the Department proceed to make the SR and that we will consider it and the SR report in due course?

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much for your presentation.