Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome the DAERA officials who are here to brief us on the first of the common frameworks that we will consider today. We are joined by Caroline Barry, acting head of chemical and industrial pollution policy, and Roger Irwin. The floor is yours.

Ms Caroline Barry (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you, Chairman and Committee members, for giving us the opportunity to speak to you about the UK common policy framework on fluorinated greenhouse gases (F-gases) and ozone-depleting substances (ODS). I am the acting head of DAERA's chemicals and industrial pollution team. Roger Irwin, who sits in my team, works specifically on F-gas and ODS legislation and policy and is involved in the operation of the common framework, as am I.

Our branch is involved in several areas of environmental legislation, some of which require common frameworks, including on chemicals, industrial pollution, radioactivity, F-gases and ODS. The common framework documents lay out the basis for post-EU exit cooperation across the UK Departments in those areas of environmental legislation. They are expressions of political commitment but are not intended to be legally binding or enforceable.

The F-gas and ODS common framework was one of 12 provisional common frameworks published in February 2022. Its main purpose is to set out an agreed approach to the policy and legislation work throughout the UK on F-gases and ODS post EU exit. The framework document comprises two sections; a provisional framework outline agreement and a concordat. Together, those state the agreed exit governance arrangements and decision-making processes post EU exit on F-gases and ODS policy between the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), the Scottish and Welsh Governments and DAERA.

The governance arrangements consist of a governance group and a working group that sits under it. The governance group meets biannually and is made up of senior policy representatives of the UK Government, each of the devolved Governments, including Northern Ireland, and a senior representative of the English Environment Agency. It may, by consensus, make decisions on recommendations made by the working group.

The working group meets monthly and is made up of policy representatives of the UK Government, each of the devolved Governments and — apologies: I have got mixed up.

Mr Roger Irwin (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): We are here, Caroline.

Ms Barry: Thanks, Roger.

I will give you a bit of background on F-gases and ODS, which are gases used in industry in Northern Ireland. If accidentally emitted, F-gases and ODS are harmless in the short term. However, F-gases have a high global warming potential — much higher than that of carbon dioxide — and, if emitted, they can exacerbate rising global temperatures. ODS have a similar global warming potential and damage the earth's ozone layer, which is essential for the survival of all life on earth.

F-gases and ODS are used as coolants and are enclosed in products and equipment. They are not used as fuel, which means that they are not usually emitted unless by accidental leakage. Leakage can happen during usage, installation, storage, transportation or decommissioning of the product or equipment. F-gases are used in several sectors of industry in Northern Ireland, including refrigeration, air conditioning, fire equipment, aerosols, heat pumps and high-voltage switchgear. ODS have been largely phased out and replaced by F-gases, but they were previously used much more commonly in refrigeration systems, air conditioning systems, heat pumps and fire protection equipment. ODS are now primarily used in small quantities for military ships, vehicles and submarines; laboratory research into ODS; civilian aircraft and airports; and land-based command and communication facilities.

I will go back to the groups involved in the common framework. As I said, the governance group meets biannually; is made up of policy representatives from the UK Government and each of the devolved Governments, including Northern Ireland, and a senior representative of the Environment Agency; and may, with the consensus of all concerned, make decisions on the recommendations made by the working group.

The working group, as I said, meets monthly and is made up of policy representatives from the UK Government, the devolved Governments and the Environment Agency in England. Like the governance group, it may, by consensus, consider policy issues or disagreements or, in specific cases, make policy recommendations to the governance group. Issues with F-gases and ODS that arise on a day-to-day basis are regularly discussed by UK officials in the working group meetings, in more informal ad hoc meetings and in email and telephone correspondence.

Under the terms of annex 2 of the Windsor framework, Northern Ireland is required to remain aligned with the EU's F-gas and ODS legislation. Two new sets of European regulations were introduced in March 2024: one on F-gases and one on ODS. Both sets were considered by the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee in April 2024, but no further action was taken.

DAERA officials engage with their GB counterparts to ensure that any potential policy divergence is tracked. An early example of divergence was the introduction in Northern Ireland of the two new EU regulations on F-gases and ODS. While our GB counterparts are looking to make changes to their domestic F-gases and ODS legislation, they are not legally required to introduce those brought in by the EU. The common framework helps in this area, as it sets out a decision-making and dispute resolution process that ensures that the four jurisdictions can discuss and manage any policy divergence. It also establishes a review and amendment mechanism for future updates to the framework. The ODS and F-gas common framework document is available on the gov.uk website, if members want to view it.

Once the Committee and all the devolved Governments have finished their examination of the provisional common framework, policy officials across the UK will assess the feedback received and make any changes to the documents that are required.

Thank you for your attention. I am sorry for the mix-up. My colleague and I are happy to answer any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much for that presentation. It is interesting, because it relates to household usage, refrigerants and stuff.

My first question is about how in Northern Ireland we manage the recovery of F-gases from appliances, whether household or industrial, when they become redundant. Do we have a policy on how to capture, store or get rid of it?

Mr Irwin: That is already in law as a result of the previous EU regulation on F-gases. It is not permitted to simply dump fridges, air conditioning units, heat pumps or fire equipment in landfill without the prior removal and recovery of the F-gases for reuse, recycling or what they call "destruction", which means converting it into other chemicals. That has to be done by trained technicians who have recognised qualifications under EU and Northern Ireland law. You are not allowed to simply emit F-gases at the end of use. That, however, is separate from the common framework document. It already exists in law and will continue in law from the new EU regulation on F-gases.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. I will game this forward a little bit, if that is OK. The EU has set a target of being F-gas-free by 2050, is that correct?

Mr Irwin: The previous EU F-gas regulation required a 79% reduction in the use of HFCs between 2015 and 2030. The most recent amendment to the Montreal protocol is the Kigali amendment of 2019, which is worldwide and requires a reduction of 85% in the use and production of hydrofluorocarbon, which is the main type of F-gas used, between 2019 and 2036. That is the current target.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I am interested in the potential for divergence from that ambition. If the EU goes for 100% by 2050 — I read that somewhere — and the UK does not, how does the common framework kick in with basic electrical appliances?

Mr Irwin: That is a good question. It is hard to predict the future, but the EU and GB have signed up to the Montreal protocol, so they are obliged to achieve the same global targets on reduction and perhaps, as you say, completely phase out all F-gases eventually. As far as the common framework goes, should GB policy depart too far from EU policy, with the EU policy affecting NI, first of all we will informally consult via the working groups and, if necessary, the governance groups that Caroline mentioned in her opening remarks. GB colleagues assure us that they will take policy divergence into account, but, should that not provide a satisfactory resolution, it can then be escalated to the senior officials programme board and then, eventually, to Ministers via submissions. They would then take a further decision on that, presumably with DEFRA advising its Ministers in inter-ministerial discussions as a last resort, if we cannot resolve it any sooner. That would be the process.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Hopefully it never gets to that. However, with the failures in how we got here, it sounds like it could be torturous enough. Thank you very much.

Mr McAleer: Robbie touched on how divergence is managed. Divergence comes into sharpest focus here on the island of Ireland. You have a situation where the northern part of the island is out of the EU yet still subject to EU ODS regulation. The concordat that you refer to applies to the North, but it does not apply to the South. Given that we share a land border and that gases know no borders — items can move up and down and all the rest — are any conversations going on with your counterparts in the South about how to manage those gases?

Mr Irwin: We are consulting our counterparts in the Republic of Ireland, who are also bringing in the equivalent EU regulations on F-gases and ODS. As far as your question goes, yes, EU law applies in the Republic of Ireland, and you are also correct to say that the common framework document does not apply in the Republic of Ireland but applies in Northern Ireland. There is no current issue for trade on the island of Ireland, because there are no trade barriers. We are bringing in the same EU regulations on F-gases and ODS as the Republic of Ireland is bringing in, so trade should continue to flow freely across the Irish border. Is that what your question was about?

Mr McAleer: Yes. The issue is the management of it. Is there the same regime for managing those gases, given that there are communities on the border?

Mr Irwin: There is no common framework document between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. However, we have been working informally with our equivalent colleagues in the Republic of Ireland's Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on issues such as the continued mutual recognition of the F-gas certificates, which I mentioned earlier, for technicians who are recovering, for example, F-gases from refrigeration so that Northern Ireland and the EU can continue to recognise each other's certificates. We are also discussing the different ways in which we will bring all the other aspects of the EU law into Northern Ireland law and Republic of Ireland law. We have been engaged in informal discussions on that with our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Roger.

Mr Blair: Some of the detail of what I was going to ask has been covered. I have a more general and fairly obvious question: what is Northern Ireland's trajectory on all this? Can we demonstrate a decrease in those gases over time, be it five years or 10 years? If we can, is the rate of that decrease increasing?

Mr Irwin: Are you talking about the amount of F-gases being used?

Mr Blair: Yes, ODS and F-gases.

Mr Irwin: We report annually to the UK on the emission of F-gases. As for F-gas use, we conducted a scoping survey in 2021 on the amount of F-gas being used in Northern Ireland. However, we have nothing to compare that with. I do not know whether F-gas emissions have gone up or down. I cannot remember the exact emissions and whether those have gone up or down since the survey.

Mr Blair: It is about trying to build a picture. Given that the scoping survey was done in 2021, which was four years ago, and that there were no such surveys previously that we know of, are there any plans to repeat that exercise and do so regularly?

Mr Irwin: Not at present. It costs to carry those out. At present, we are concentrating on bringing the new EU F-gas and ODS regulations into Northern Ireland legislation, given the many complications that there are there, and completing the common framework document. So, not at present.

Mr Blair: As highlighted in the previous question, there are other jurisdictions that are not far away from us. Those include the islands — plural — none of which are particularly far away. We share the same air, and there is air movement. Is there an overall measurement at UK level?

Ms Barry: Yes.

Mr Blair: There is. OK.

Ms Barry: There will be reporting at a UK level, and there is ongoing monitoring. There is a phase-down of F-gases. The EU operates a quota system, and there is an equivalent system in GB. That is part of how the reduction in the use of F-gases and ODS is being managed.

Mr Blair: OK. If there is monitoring at UK level, I assume that that is done through some sort of monitoring apparatus, monitoring stations or monitoring points. If there are no monitoring points or any forms of monitoring mechanisms or apparatus here, the obvious question is this: how it is measured? If a structure or infrastructure is in place to monitor and measure F-gases, is there such apparatus in Northern Ireland?

Mr Irwin: No. It is difficult to monitor F-gases. That monitoring is not carried out, because F-gases are invisible, odourless and inaudible. They are not used as a fuel so they cannot be identified in exhaust emissions or anything like that, and we do not have them in fire extinguishers or anything like that.

The total amount of F-gases used is submitted by businesses, and an assumption is made about how much would leak out per year. Although leaks are checked and monitored by many means and technicians have to be trained to ensure that they can carry out leak detection and repair, there will, inevitably, be some leakage. A certain percentage of the total amount used by Northern Ireland is calculated — the same is done for GB — and the percentage of potential leaks is then calculated to estimate F-gas emissions. That is as close as you can get. It is hard to monitor them.

Mr Blair: OK. That helps, thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Before I bring Tom in, I will ask a question on alternatives to F-gases. F-gases came about because people thought that they would be better than the ODS, but they are not necessarily. What are the alternatives to F-gases? That is particularly important, if we are encouraging people to use air source heat pumps?

Mr Irwin: F-gases are a better alternative to ODS, because ODS have very high global warming potential, and F-gases do not deplete the ozone layer. They solved one problem, but the other problem — the high potential for global warming — remains.

On your second question, yes, the EU is bringing in requirements for technicians to be trained in alternatives to F-gases that are being considered, including hydrofluoroolefins. In the EU's F-gas regulation, there are provisions for technicians to be trained in the use not only of the current F-gases in products and equipment during their transportation, decommissioning or installation but of alternative sources such as hydrofluoroolefins. There is no law to say that companies must use those alternatives — not yet, anyway — but, as the phase-down continues, one will probably be introduced. There are other gases such as carbon dioxide or ammonia that, even though they have much lower global warming potential, are either flammable or do not have the right pressure for use in fridges, fire equipment, air conditioning and so on, so they are not, in practice, useful as refrigerants.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Mr T Buchanan: I thank the witnesses for their presentation. For clarity and to have it on the record, will Northern Ireland be treated exactly the same as the rest of the United Kingdom under the common framework when it comes to policy, legislative stuff and all of that? Will there be any deterrent to trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom under the Windsor framework?

Mr Irwin: Right. Those are tricky questions. First, will Northern Ireland be treated differently from the rest of the UK under the common framework? I have to say that it will be, because the EU law on F-gases and ODS applies in Northern Ireland, whereas it does not apply in GB. That means that, as part of the common framework agreement, GB has already set up new measures, with a new computer database for reporting F-gas use and for running the F-gas quota system and ODS licensing system GB-wide. Quota and licensing are used to ensure that, in total, not too many F-gases and ODS are used within a state's area, because of fears of potential global warming.

Northern Ireland, however, remains part of the EU systems for reporting on volumes of use of F-gases and ODS, the F-gas quota and the ODS licensing system. The only thing that has been kept the same so far is the reporting of emissions, which is still done on a UK-wide basis: the UK reports to the UN on its total use of F-gases and ODS.

GB has assured us that it will take policy divergence into account, and we have the dispute resolution system by which we can escalate any major concerns in Northern Ireland about the potential for policy divergence. GB is a major source of trade with Northern Ireland for F-gases and ODS and products and equipment that contain them. That is the best answer that I can give you. There are concerns about policy divergence.

Sorry, what was your second question?

Mr T Buchanan: The second question was whether that would create barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and GB, perhaps under the Windsor framework.

Mr Irwin: Yes, some, but we are mitigating them as best we can. First, as I said, mutual recognition of certificates is due to continue, so, for people working on the installation and decommissioning etc of products and equipment that contain F-gases, the certificates needed to do so legally will be recognised in GB and NI. Secondly, there are means by which checks can be done electronically for products and equipment containing F-gases that are being transported between GB and NI to make sure that there is minimum fuss or commotion at the border. For example, GB quotas on F-gases can be monitored and checked online, and there is a new computer system called CERTEX coming in for HMRC and the national clearance hub (NCH). That will include F-gases and ODS and will be used to check whether products and equipment have the required quota or licensing system certification to minimise fuss at the border.

Another issue is a new EU regulation that states that F-gases contained in fridges, air conditioning etc may not have a global warming potential of above 1,000. That can be checked remotely by the relevant businesses and the NCH and HMRC before the products and equipment come to Northern Ireland. A trading advice scheme has also been set up to help businesses work out how they can readily and easily transfer their goods containing F-gases and ODS between GB and NI. I hope that that helps to alleviate your concerns a little.

Mr T Buchanan: Yes. Thank you for that. Will there be added costs for businesses here? You have said that there will be training to help businesses. Will that add costs for businesses here?

Mr Irwin: Some extra administrative cost, perhaps, but we will consult businesses on that during the consultation on bringing in the new European Union regulations on F-gases and ODS. There could be some administrative costs. Hopefully, those will not be too great for businesses.

Mr T Buchanan: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): That was a good wee session with good questions.

Members, is there anything else? No.

Thank you very much for your attendance and your time. We may be in touch.