Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): We welcome the following Department for Infrastructure officials: Mrs Rosemary Daly, director of regional planning, governance and legislation; Scott Symington, senior principal, regional planning, governance and legislation; and David Doherty, who is from regional planning, governance and legislation. You are all very welcome to the Committee today. Thank you for your time.

Members, as usual, I seek agreement that the evidence be recorded by Hansard. Does everyone agree?

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. Thank you.

As usual, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks, after which members will ask questions.

Mrs Rosemary Daly (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you. Chair and members, thank you very much for the opportunity to brief you on the model licence conditions for Traveller sites and the model licence conditions for holiday and residential sites. As the Chair has said, I am the director of regional planning, governance and legislation, and I am joined by my colleagues Scott Symington and David Doherty.

Under the Caravans Act (Northern Ireland) 1963, the development of caravan sites and the physical standards are controlled through planning permissions granted for the use of land as a caravan site and the 1963 Act's site licence system. The licence system is administered by district councils, which are responsible for issuing and enforcing site licences. The Department for Infrastructure has a role in providing the definition of the meaning of a caravan, as prescribed in section 25 of the Caravans Act. It also has a role in the certificates of exemption from the requirement to hold a site licence, such as for touring caravan organisations.

The Department also provides model licence conditions regulating the layout and provision of facilities, services and equipment for caravan sites, including water supply, electricity and fire points. The former Department of the Environment published model licence conditions in 1992 for holiday caravan sites and in 1994 for residential caravan sites.

On 6 March 2018, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission published its 'Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Travellers’ Accommodation in NI' investigation report. The report recommended that the Department for Infrastructure should:

The Department accepted the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission's recommendation, and, having reviewed the legal and policy framework, it is satisfied that the legal framework is satisfactory and considers that, while the legislation has been in place for some time, it remains fit for purpose and broadly in line with the other jurisdictions.

While addressing the report's recommendations, the Department took the opportunity to consult on bringing model licence conditions for holiday, residential and Travellers' caravan sites into one document. That was considered appropriate because the current conditions date back to 1992 and 1994. Between May and August 2019, the Department consulted on a set of draft model licence conditions, encompassing residential, holiday and Travellers' caravan sites, to seek the views of all interested parties on revisiting and updating the existing model licence conditions.

Following consideration of the consultation responses and the views of the Human Rights Commission and Travellers' rights groups, and having reviewed the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service's guidance and the Department for Communities draft design guidance for Travellers' accommodation, the Minister and the Department concluded that it was appropriate to revise and update the current model licence conditions by bringing forward two sets of model licence conditions — one for holiday and residential sites and a separate one for Travellers' sites — of which the Committee has copies.

The updated licence conditions represent what is normally expected as a matter of good practice on all caravan sites. They should be applied with regard to the particular circumstances of each case, including the physical character of the site, any facilities or services that may already be available within convenient reach or other local conditions. They also provide explanatory notes, including advice on enforcement, to give greater clarity to councils and stakeholders.

Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. We are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you very much. We appreciate your time today. Obviously, there has been a time lapse since the consultation, which took place in 2019. What assurances, therefore, can the Department give that no further changes to the conditions are required as a result of anything that has happened in the interim?

Mr David Doherty (Department for Infrastructure): During that period, we have been in contact with representatives of the holiday sector, the British Holiday and Home Parks Association, and we have provided them with updates. They raised concerns, but the concerns were the same as those raised in the 2019 consultation. We have been in regular contact and have updated them on our position. We have also been in regular contact with councils on the matter, and they are keen for the new conditions to be published. The conditions are an update on what was previously there and also provide a lot more clarity and advice on enforcement. The 2018 fire guidance is still current, as is DFC's design guide, and our conditions complement both sets of advice.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You said that the holiday sector still had concerns and that you updated it on your position. What exactly was that position? Were you able to allay the concerns in that sector?

Mr Doherty: The holiday sector has a number of concerns, including on spacing and on some of the wording of the new model licence conditions. It wants to ensure that conditions are not applied retrospectively. In meetings, we have tried to reassure sector representatives that that is not the case. This is not a major change; it is an update. The language has changed. In our consultation response, we answered many of the queries, accepted some of the holiday sector's points and updated the conditions accordingly.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): For clarity, what specific points were updated?

Mr Doherty: There was one point around the 3-metre separation distance between the border of a caravan site and any caravan. We have allowed flexibility in that because we accept that there may be sites where that 3-metre separation is not necessary. The 3-metre requirement is there for a number of reasons: privacy; fire safety; and the enjoyment of a site. However, there could be sites in the holiday sector where, because of where they are situated, that is not an issue. We have allowed flexibility within that by using language such as "where appropriate", which the holiday sector was inclined for us to use.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): How many other changes have been made?

Mr Doherty: There were concerns in the consultation around a parked car having to be at least 3 metres from an adjoining caravan. We have withdrawn that 3-metre rule and left that up to the council to consult the owner, depending on the caravan site. That 3-metre condition might not be met on a caravan site because there is separation required at distances of 5 metres, so, if you also required a 3-metre separation distance, that may not be possible. That is more a discussion for councils and the caravan site owner to see whether that is appropriate.

There were other minor concerns. For something as simple as what is reasonable when cutting grass, the conditions said that all cut grass had to be removed, but some best practice is that it is better to leave the cut grass. We have done some minor things around that.

Mrs Daly: There are circumstances in which these conditions will be considered. Obviously, the conditions will be considered only when someone is applying for a licence for a new site; when applying licence conditions to sites that have already been substantially redeveloped; or when renewing or reviewing a current licence. It is not that you would, without reason, go on to a site and seek to apply conditions retrospectively.

Mr Doherty: Our position is that, if the current licence is fit for purpose, you do not need to go in and issue a new licence. If there are any conditions that you think need changing — for example, if there is mobile phone coverage, you do not need to provide a telephone for emergencies — things like that need to be done on a gradual basis and in discussion with the site owner. If there is a new condition, site owners will be given an appropriate amount of time to put that condition in place.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You said that you have been in contact with the 11 councils and that they are broadly happy. Do you think that the introduction of these conditions provides more uniformity for councils across the board?

Mr Doherty: Yes. It also provides more flexibility. There is more guidance. What is new about these conditions are the explanatory notes. They were not there previously. In the explanatory notes, we tried to give councils and site owners more information, especially around enforcement, because that issue came up quite regularly.

We do not want them to use the model licence as a one-size-fits-all site licence, which might have happened with the 1992 and 1994 conditions. We want them to look at the site and see what is appropriate for it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): The consultation in 2019 was extended. What were the reasons for that?

Mr Doherty: A couple of organisations requested that it be extended, and it seemed illogical not to allow it. Off the top of my head, I do not know the exact reasons, but we received a couple of emails from councils and one from outside. I think that a residential park association needed a bit more time, and we just thought that there was no need not to extend it.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): You said that the conditions are "broadly in line with the other jurisdictions." How broadly are they in line with other jurisdictions?

Mr Doherty: For residential sites, Wales and England updated theirs in 2008. These conditions were not based on those but took a lot of information from the 2008 conditions in England and Wales and how those were set out.

Scotland updated its conditions for residential sites in 2018, as far as I remember. The holiday site conditions date back to the 1990s for Scotland and 1989 for England, though they say that councils should take account of modern practices. Our conditions probably go a step further, in that we have updated both. There are differences, but, on spacing, the bulk of the conditions relate to spacing for safety and whatever, and they are pretty consistent throughout all the jurisdictions. I do not think that they vary at all.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. I will move on at this juncture. Deputy Chair, do you want to come in?

Mr Stewart: Thank you so much for your answers. The Chair has covered most of the pressing points. You said that there is a separate model licence and conditions for Travellers' sites and that that has been the case for some time. What is the Department's rationale for that? What are the health and safety concerns that you referred to, and what engagement has there been so far with Traveller support groups on those changes?

Mr Doherty: We had a lot of correspondence at the time with the Traveller support groups and the Human Rights Commission. Most of the Travellers' concerns that were raised in the consultation were addressed by the DFC's design guide. That takes more account of the cultural needs. We produced a separate model for Travellers because, prior to 2003, councils were responsible for Travellers' sites, but, because councils were exempt, they did not require a site licence. In reality, the 1994 conditions did not have any mention of Travellers, because that did not apply. We have seen the replies from these groups that say that they want separate consideration. There are some slight differences between the two, so we thought that we would be better splitting them. In the Travellers' groups, we refer quite a bit to the design guide, because that is what we want to complement. That is the probably main document for the Travellers' sites, and we want these site licence conditions to align with that. To me, it gives more clarity to councils that there should be a separate set of conditions.

Mr Stewart: On the back of the consultation, those concerns have been addressed.

Mr Doherty: Yes, the concerns were raised in the responses from the Traveller support groups and the Human Rights Commission, and we have addressed those.

Mr Stewart: That is perfect. I will move on. The holiday caravan sector raised concerns about not wanting a broad-brush approach for its sector. I know that you touched on this with the Chair, but why did the Department feel that this was a more suitable approach than having specific rules for caravan sites for the holiday sector?

Mr Doherty: Again, if you read the 1992 and 1994 conditions for the two separate sectors, you will find that they are almost identical. It did not seem appropriate to produce another two separate sets of conditions. Within the combined set, we have tried to give the flexibility that the holiday sector wants. Councils should talk to the owners and consider, discuss and bring forward appropriate, justifiable conditions. It did not seem justifiable to bring forward two separate sets when they are so very similar.

Mrs Daly: You would just be duplicating the same information, whereas the Travellers' model licence conditions have slight variations, so it is easier for anyone to pick up on the differences in each document.

Mr Stewart: No problem. OK. That is fine.

Mr K Buchanan: Thanks for coming along, David, Rosemary and Scott. I have a couple of questions. I will go to the start of the guidance on residential sites and holiday sites. If I were planning to build a caravan park tomorrow, for example — I do not plan to, but let us say that I do

— who would issue that licence to me?

Mr Doherty: The council is fully responsible for issuing and enforcing site licences.

Mr K Buchanan: Are these conditions what I follow to build my caravan park?

Mr Doherty: Councils must have regard to them. They can go above or below them, but they have to have regard to them.

Mr K Buchanan: What happens if I do not adhere to this? I build the park correctly, but something that happens in a few years' time means that there is something wrong. Who will police that?

Mr Doherty: The council.

Mr K Buchanan: Right. Who polices the council?

Mr Doherty: As with any council function —.

Mr K Buchanan: If I do it incorrectly, if my holiday park is not designed correctly or if there is some issue, the council will come to me and say, "Residents of your holiday park have complained about the way that you have done something, Keith. You need to address this".

Mr Doherty: The owner is responsible for ensuring that the licence conditions are met. If they are not met, a council has considerable powers under the 1963 Act to gain entry to enforce. If you were a resident in a caravan park and something was not done, you would go to the council first.

Mr K Buchanan: Does a council have powers to fine me? What powers do councils have?

Mr Doherty: No. The council does not fine you, but, yes, you could go to court and face a fine.

Mr K Buchanan: OK, so the council is the policing authority.

Mr Doherty: Yes. The council is the enforcement authority.

Mr K Buchanan: I go back to my question: who polices the councils? They probably have hundreds of caravans on their sites in Northern Ireland.

Mrs Daly: This legislation is produced by the Department, so the ultimate responsibility to ensure that it is implemented lies with the Department.

Mr Doherty: If caravan site residents raise an issue with the council, the council has a responsibility to address it.

Mr K Buchanan: If I were not doing something correctly, the council would tell me that I needed to address it quickly. On 24 February, 230 static caravans and 90 touring caravan plots on a council-owned site on the north coast had a catastrophic failure. The power to some may be reinstated, but, to date, dozens of caravans still have no power. I will not get into specifics, but people have paid big money for their pitch, yet the council is very relaxed, so who is policing it? Is it you?

Mr Doherty: No. Councils do not require a site licence. Councils are exempt from having a site licence, so there will not be any licence conditions on a council park. They have to have regard to the model licence conditions, and they have a responsibility for all other legislation. If an issue falls under some other health and safety legislation, councils have a responsibility, and, if they are not meeting that responsibility, that should be highlighted.

Mr K Buchanan: Did you say that they do not require a licence?

Mr Doherty: Councils are exempt under the Caravans Act.

Mr K Buchanan: Effectively, councils do not have to adhere to any of this.

Mr Doherty: They have to have regard to the model licence conditions. They do not need a site licence.

Mr K Buchanan: A council can fine somebody for not complying with the conditions, but it does not have to comply.

Mr Doherty: Yes. A council can enforce conditions on other caravan sites, but councils themselves do not have a site licence.

Mr K Buchanan: Whom does Joe Public go to if they cannot get power on their site for months and are still paying the council? Who can they go to directly and say, "I'm paying. The council does not have power to my site, and it's saying that it will be a couple of months"? Whom do they go to?

Mrs Daly: They would have to go to the council.

Mr K Buchanan: The council is their —.

Mr Doherty: They would have to go through the complaints procedure and what is standing there. The council has the responsibility.

Mrs Daly: Surely, if you entered into a contract with a council when you put your caravan on a council site, there should be a caveat in that contract about who is responsible.

Mr Doherty: Protections under the Caravans Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, which is DFC Communities legislation, might cover things such as that for people who are on sites.

Mr K Buchanan: Fundamentally, they are policing themselves, to a degree.

Mr Doherty: With regard to site licences, yes, but not with regard to any of those issues. They do not have a site licence, but they still have a responsibility, and they still have to take account of the model licence conditions. They are subject to all other legislative requirements.

Mr K Buchanan: If you were talking to some of those people who have no power and cannot use the caravan that they are paying for — it is like renting a home but not being allowed into it — what would you tell them to do?

Mr Doherty: That protection is, I think, under the 2011 Caravans Act.

Mr K Buchanan: Whom do they go to?

Mr Doherty: I do not have that detail. I know what you mean —.

Mr K Buchanan: I will not put you on the spot. Think of those people who are paying for their plot. They go to the council, and the council says, "Well, it's going to be a few months".

Mr Doherty: You could have no electricity in your house for a few months, but you still have to go to someone about that.

Mr K Buchanan: You would be making an effort to get it sorted. If that were a private site, the owner would be making a somewhat different effort. I will leave it there.

Mr McMurray: I thank the witnesses for coming in. Given the delay between the 2019 consultation and now, what is the built-in period of review for this, and what happens if there are unintended consequences?

It is all well and good our sitting here discussing this, but someone in the like of South Down could be affected, or, as Keith said, we will possibly be inundated when the issues come to pass, if that makes sense. When is the review?

Mr Doherty: The Department can review the model licence conditions at any time. If we publish them and it is highlighted that there is an issue and a particular condition is not relevant, the Department can review, update and change them. The Department has the power to produce the model licence conditions as and when.

Mr McMurray: Following on from that, you stated that you think that the measure will be only for new or highly redeveloped licensed sites. If there are unintended consequences or there are unintended fees for a site operator, how is that built in?

Mr Doherty: The legal owner has the right of appeal against any condition —

Mr McMurray: Right.

Mr Doherty: — and will go through court proceedings. The one condition that would come to the Department is that on opening periods. That appeal would come to the Department, and all other appeals would go through court proceedings.

Mr McMurray: OK. Does that mean that the advice would be, "That is OK"?

Mr Doherty: Before a new condition comes in, there should be a period of discussion between the council and the site owner. There should then be a feed-in period until that condition takes effect. Once the condition is issued, the site owner has 28 days to appeal it.

Mr McMurray: Following on from what Keith said, is this the hierarchy: council; Department; and legal?

Mr Doherty: No, the Department would not be involved in that appeal. It would be involved only in an appeal on opening hours. Any other appeal would be through the courts.

Mr McMurray: Your paper divides the responses into three sections: Traveller sites; holiday caravan sites; and councils and other government bodies. There is a lot about the space between sites and between boundaries and suchlike. The review was carried out in 2019, and the world has changed significantly in the interim. We have seen a lot more camper vans, which, as I read the definition, are caravans. Up and down the country, we see camper vans going into public car parks and so forth where there is no spacing. Will the regulations give councils any more power to regulate camper vans in public car parks?

Mr Doherty: A council car park cannot be a caravan site. That cannot be allowed; a planning application for change of use would be needed for that.

Mr McMurray: Does the Department have an opinion on how the new regulations can be enforced to prevent the risks that, by your own admission, exist? You mentioned the fire risk for spaces between vehicles, for instance.

Mr Doherty: The fire advice and the model licence conditions align with the fire guidance. Although that fire guidance was updated in 2018, it is as relevant now as it was in 1994. The spacing has not changed. The different materials that are used in caravans and various other things were taken account of. However, if you are talking about car parks, you will find that they are not caravan sites and should not be used as such.

Mr McMurray: Does the Department have an opinion on the fact that they are now de facto such sites?

Mr Doherty: We have written to a number of councils to explain the situation and to inform them of what they are required to do if they want to make their car park a caravan site.

Mr McMurray: I am talking about the inverse of that, which is when they do not want their car park to be a caravan site.

Mr Doherty: Councils have the power to regulate their car parks.

Mrs Daly: As David indicated, each site would have to have planning permission before a licence were issued, so there is already rigour in the process. You cannot park and use any piece of public land.

Mr Doherty: You cannot have a caravan site without a site licence to start off with, and you cannot have a site licence without planning permission. There are processes on the way through. You are talking about illegally using a car park as a caravan site.

Mr McMurray: I am talking about the prevalence of their use in that way.

Mr Doherty: It is up to councils to police that and to make sure that it does not happen.

Mr Scott Symington (Department for Infrastructure): The two regimes that control the development of caravan sites are the planning system and these regulations, that is, the site licensing system, which are more about amenity, layout and standards. The planning system, however, looks at the land use. If sites are being used in that unauthorised way, the council will use its planning enforcement powers or make a planning application for it.

Mr McMurray: OK, thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Cathal, I have your name on my list.

Mr Boylan: All the questions have been asked, Chair. The issue has been well interrogated. There are two things that I will say, having listened to your answers. We included as many people as possible in the consultation. The main thing is to get the message out and to converse with those people in order to ensure that we are bringing forward the right regulations.

I take it that you have done all that. I have two questions to ask. What is the principal reason for bringing the measure forward? What have we learned from good practice in other jurisdictions? Have you learned from best practice models elsewhere?

Mr Doherty: The review happened because of the Human Rights Commission's report. That gave us the opportunity to look at the 1992 and 1994 model licence conditions, which still served a purpose but were out of date, language-wise. We looked at the position in the other jurisdictions and the updated conditions that were brought forward in England and Wales, and we looked at the position in Scotland. We had a wide range of consultation responses to look at. We did not have responses from the residential sector, but we captured those in DFC's review of the 2011 Act and met the residential sector at that stage. Its issues were about enforcement and who is in charge of that. The explanatory notes at the back of the papers are probably the biggest and most useful change for councils, residents and site owners.

Mr Boylan: At the end of the day, there will need to be a multi-agency approach, no matter who is responsible for enforcement. You have answered most of the questions, to be honest, so thank you.

Mr Stewart: I just want to follow up on the point that Andrew raised about opening times. I think that you answered that, David. All other aspects of the measure are enforceable by the council as the regulatory authority.

Mr Doherty: The council does it all, but an appeal on opening times would come to the Department under the 1963 Act.

Mr Stewart: What would be the situation if I had a caravan and the site owner decided to shut between October and March?

Mr Doherty: The caravan site owner has the right of appeal. Let us say that he has a site that he wants to open all year round but he has been allowed to open only between March and September. He may think that that is unfair because another site somewhere else is open all year. That appeal would come to us, and we would go through a process. We would contact the council, see what the site layout is and make the decision. If we go in the site owner's favour, we inform the council so that it could alter that condition.

Mr Stewart: OK, so could you extend the opening times?

Mr Doherty: Yes, we could extend those.

Mr Stewart: What about the caravan owner? Where does he or she go?

Mr Doherty: That comes under the protections that are in the 2011 Act.

Mr Stewart: If a caravan site owner decided, for example, that they wanted to shut for an extra month in the year, during the time when a caravan owner has a contract, do they take that to the council?

Mr Doherty: A break in a contract would be dealt with in legislation.

Mr Stewart: It would require a civil action, effectively, but there would be no departmental interference in it.

Mr Doherty: No, not through the 1963 Caravans Act or the model licence conditions.

Mr Stewart: That has been raised with me before, but their first port of call would be the council, effectively.

Mr Doherty: It might involve the National Trading Standards — I do not know — if there is a break in the contract. The 1963 Act is outwith that; that is not covered by the 1963 Act or the model licence conditions.

Mr Stewart: OK, no problem. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Cathal, were you looking back in?

Mr Boylan: This will certainly inform the new area plans, because it will help in the consideration of land use and everything else. I do not know whether that came up in the consultation, but I am thinking that that is something to consider.

Mrs Daly: There is no doubt that, as part of the assessment of a planning application, the planning considerations include issues such as timescales, opening, positioning, layout and amenity issues. The regulations are like a duplication under the Caravans Act, but it will supplement the councils' powers. There should be some consultation with the councils on what was considered in the planning process.

Mr Symington: Ideally, the new plans will identify the specific sites for those things. Obviously, the Housing Executive now has responsibility for the Traveller sites, and, again, part of the planning process is to identify those sites.

Mr Boylan: It will be under the new plan. Thank you.

Mrs Daly: It will make everything up to date and current. As David indicated, it will provide a good explanation for why they are there.

Mr Boylan: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): No problem. Mark or Nicola, are you OK? You are OK. I want to pick up on a point. You said that, once a licence is agreed, there is applicability, which means applicability of the spaces. Once a licence has been agreed, what happens if the spacing changes afterwards? Someone could say that it was applicable at the time but not applicable now. Where does that sit?

Mr Doherty: The majority of spacing will not change. The distance is set between caravans because of fire guidance. I was trying to give you the example of sites that may overlook the sea, which means that there will not be a fire risk, so saying to the site owner, "You must be 3 metres from that fence" is probably unreasonable, if you know what I mean. It is about giving councils the flexibility to look at the site. If a site owner thinks that it is beneficial to not use the 3 metres because there is no privacy or fire safety issue, they can say, "There is space that I might be able to utilise for the benefit of my customers". A council can look at that decision. The new conditions give councils the ability to be flexible and to look at such decisions. I do not see that happening on an ongoing basis.

Mrs Daly: It takes account of the specific elements of a site.

Mr Doherty: We have used some of the language as we have to give the holiday sector flexibility where it is warranted. The council has to justify and stand over it. Ultimately, the council can decide to say no, and it has to stand over any site licence that it issues.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): In an ideal world, the licence has been agreed. I am not saying that this is the case, but some site owners may bend the rules. In that situation, it is up to the council to make sure that the conditions of the licence have been adhered to.

Mr Doherty: The council has the power of entry.

Mr Symington: The council can go in, do works and recover the costs.

Mr Doherty: In theory, the council has the power to do the works if the site owner has not done them. I am not sure whether that would or has happened. The powers are in the 1963 Act.

Mr Symington: The councils can review the conditions in consultation. The onus is on the council to do that work.

Mr Doherty: If the site licence has been issued but the council thinks that one of the conditions is not working, the site owner and the council can have a discussion and the condition can be changed.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Going back to Keith's point, it seems that councils have an awful lot of the power in that the licence does not have to be in place but they need to have due regard for it. It seems that that creates a bit of a tier. Has that not come up with some of the —?

Mr Doherty: Yes —

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): If you do not mind, I will finish my point. Has that point come up with some of the businesses and the holiday and residential caravan parks as a concern? If I were a site owner and a business person, I would be concerned that the council could operate on a site that is beside mine, yet nobody is reviewing what the council is doing.

Mr Doherty: The caravan and holiday site owners would rightly argue that they are in a unique position, because this is the only place in the UK where they are in competition with the councils, as sites are side by side. Having said all that, council caravan sites still have to satisfy all the health and safety legislation, abide by fire guidance and have regard to model conditions. Councils need to provide the same enjoyment, privacy and safety to people on their sites. They cannot suddenly have caravans 3 metres apart; they are still bound heavily by all the regulation. I understand where the holiday sector is coming from, and it is correct that it is in competition, but I assume that councils want successful holiday sites in their area, because they bring in income and tourists.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): The councils will also want successful council sites.

Mr Doherty: Yes, they will.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): They bring in income for them. You can see where there is direct competition.

Mr Symington: You are right to say councils sites are exempt from licensing. They also take through their own planning applications. Your perception is right. That point has been picked up by private owners. However, for the councils, that is the reality of the —.

Mr Doherty: That is the reality. I do not know how much leeway it gives them to relax anything, because it is all very structured. They cannot ignore the model licence conditions. They do not have a site licence, but they cannot just ignore those conditions.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Do you not think that there is maybe a case for the Department, or a Department, to make sure that the councils have oversight over what they are doing? They just have to adhere to it. I understand what you are saying about health and safety and that councils will want to ensure x, y and z, but it is clearly creating a two-tier system.

Mr Doherty: There are a number of exemptions under the 1963 Act. Motorhome groups are exempt from a site licence on many different occasions. A pub can, in theory, allow one caravan to stay in its car park for a night; it is exempt from a site licence. There are a number of exemptions throughout the Caravans Act. A council must get the Department's approval for any caravan site. It has to seek our approval under the 1963 Act. There are some balances and checks, but you are right. The holiday sector sees it as an unfair competition.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I think that you said — I am sorry if I quote you incorrectly — that that is different to other UK jurisdictions in terms of council and —.

Mr Doherty: No.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): No? Did you say that it is still in line with the rest?

Mr Doherty: Local planning authorities in the other jurisdictions are exempt from site licences. I am not aware of the fact that a lot of local councils in England run holiday sites. The information that we received from the holiday sector was that Northern Ireland might be the only place in which that happens, but councils are exempt in England, Scotland and Wales.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): No other members have indicated that they want to ask questions. I thank you very much for your time. You have got off well with the time. We appreciate your time and your coming to us today to provide evidence to the Committee.