Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I welcome Colin Moffett, who is the director of the civil contingencies division in the Executive Office.

Are Committee members content for the evidence session to be reported by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Colin, would you like to go ahead?

Mr Colin Moffett (The Executive Office): Thanks, Chair and members, for the invite. I am conscious of time, as there are only 20 minutes for the session, so I will try to keep my opening remarks brief to leave plenty of time for questions.

First, it is important to set out that the Northern Ireland Climate Commissioner Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2025 are being introduced to deliver on a statutory requirement placed on TEO by the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. Members will be familiar with the Act's headline requirement, which is that all Departments must make efforts to achieve net zero by 2050. The Act has also placed specific requirements on a select number of Departments.

Members will also recall that the requirement to establish a Climate Commissioner here was not a feature of the Climate Change (No. 2) Bill when it was introduced; instead, it was added by way of amendments as the Bill passed through the Assembly. Section 50 of the 2022 Act has placed the requirement on TEO. It is brief and includes only five subsections. To help provide some context for members, I will go through the five subsections quickly.

Section 50(1) requires TEO to:

and specifically notes that that is to be achieved by regulations. Subsection (2) states that the functions:

Subsection (3) lists a number of provisions that may be included in the regulations and one that must be included in them. The one that must be included is that we:

Subsection (4) states that the regulations may specify how the commissioner's oversight and reporting role will be performed, while subsection (5) required that the first draft of those regulations be laid in draft form in the Assembly within two years of the Act's having received Royal Assent.

As you noted in advance of the evidence session, Chair, another important requirement of the Act is that all regulations introduced under any provision in it are to be subject to the draft affirmative resolution procedure, so that applies here.

As I said, I am not going to go through the draft regulations in detail, but I can confirm that the regulations before the Committee give expression to what is allowed for and what is required by the Climate Change Act. That is to say that the regulations will establish the office of a Climate Commissioner and provide a power for TEO to appoint a Climate Commissioner whose core functions will be to oversee and report on the operations of the Act.

Members will recall that, in late 2024, when the Committee was considering the SL1 for the draft regulations, there was correspondence back and forth between the Department and the Committee. There were a number of queries from the Committee, to which we issued a response on 3 December. Members will also recall that, in that correspondence, we noted a consultation with the Climate Change Committee (CCC). In summary, the CCC has concluded that consultation and reviewed the draft regulations. It has welcomed the steps being taken to establish a Climate Commissioner and has committed to working with the commissioner once the office is established and operational. The draft regulations are not considered to be cross-cutting, so they have not been referred to the Executive for consideration. It is anticipated that the regulations will come into operation on the day after they are made.

I will draw my opening remarks to a close. The regulations are an important first step in establishing a Climate Commissioner here. Once established, we will be the first region on these islands to have its own dedicated commissioner. When considered alongside other climate advisory bodies that operate here already — the CCC, the Office for Environmental Protection (OEP) and the just transition commission that the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs is establishing under powers given to it by the Act — we will have a unique and genuinely world-leading climate advisory network and structure here.

I will end there and take questions.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you very much, Colin. I appreciate all the work that you have put into this.

I will pick up on the Committee's query about the £1 million. The draft statutory rule (SR) states:

It goes on to state that that will require the approval of the Executive Office and the Department of Finance. What support will be given to the new commissioner to determine what the staffing structure will look like in order to ensure the best use of public money?

Mr Moffett: We have benchmarked the staffing structure against other arm's-length bodies (ALBs) that operate here and in other jurisdictions. We think that there is to be a core staff complement of about 15 people, and that is where that £1 million will go. Some of it will be used for corporate functions to make sure that the Climate Commissioner has support for communications and engagement and some support for policy. Our plan is to have those staff in post. The commissioner will have discretion over where some of the staff are placed and will choose which functions to prioritise to ensure that the office discharges its power.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is useful. Thank you. There was an expectation that the Climate Commissioner may move under the authority of DAERA, because that was where the scrutiny of the Bill lay, yet it is with TEO. Do you have an indication yet of where, physically, the office will be located?

Mr Moffett: It will be sponsored by TEO.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Yes, but where will the physical presence be?

Mr Moffett: We do not know yet. We have been looking at options for accommodation and leasing for when the office is established. Until the regulations are passed, however, we do not have the power to enter into any contracts. We have been looking at the public-sector estate and other options for where the office may be placed.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Finally, how long, once the regulations are passed by the Assembly, will the recruitment process take?

Mr Moffett: The recruitment process will be the same as that for most public appointments. I know that the Committee has been considering the matter in detail. It will probably be between six and nine months, once the competition has been launched, until we get to the point at which a commissioner is appointed. We have made a good head start by developing the candidate information booklet, the job specification and all the rest, so we will not be beginning from a standing start if the regulations are approved. We have some work banked, but it will probably be six to nine months before an appointment is made.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you very much.

Mr Dickson: That is all useful background information. It is interesting to see the process behind the setting up of a commissioner's office. Presumably, there is a reasonable template for the delivery of this type of body: one that matches that for some of the other commissioners, such as the Commissioner for Older People. Will there be a single commissioner, without a deputy? How many staff do you envisage being required to support the commissioner? Will the back-office function — finance and administration — be delivered externally to the office, or will it be a complete package deal?

Mr Moffett: There will be a single commissioner. There will not be a panel. As I mentioned, we think that about 15 people will be required to support the commissioner. I must say, though, that that is subject to business case approval and that still needs to go through. We think that that is a reasonable sum. There are options to have fewer staff or a larger number of staff, but the idea is that they will all work directly for the commission. That will preserve the commissioner's independence.

Mr Kingston: You have answered some of my questions already, Colin. Thank you for your attendance.

I want to ask about the Climate Change Committee. We referred the regulations to it, and it replied, saying that it had no substantial [Inaudible.]

Will the CCC play an ongoing role? What is its role within government? I am not clear how it operates. Does it operate across the four jurisdictions of the UK?

Mr Moffett: It does. The Climate Change Committee was established under the UK's Climate Change Act 2008. It is a statutory body to provide advice on climate change — mitigation and adaptation — to Parliament and all devolved Administrations (DAs). It will continue to operate; in fact, in some regards, the Climate Change Act has strengthened its monitoring and reporting role, particularly on the requirements of the Act. The CCC has some specific reporting requirements. It will continue to operate alongside the Climate Commissioner here. We have been in conversation with the Climate Change Committee for a long time about how we can avoid duplication between the two roles. We want to avoid duplication, but we also want the roles to be complementary.

Mr Kingston: To whom is the Climate Change Committee answerable? Is it Westminster?

Mr Moffett: Ultimately, it is answerable to Westminster, although it is co-sponsored by each of the devolved Administrations. DAERA is the co-sponsor here.

Mr Kingston: I did not see it mentioned when I scanned the Act, but is the CCC named in it?

Mr Moffett: It is. There are a number of sections and subsections in the Act that state that the advice of the CCC is specifically required. The requirement as it relates to our Climate Commissioner is at section 56, where it states that there is a requirement to consult the CCC on any regulations that are brought forward. That is where we come in. That requirement applies to all regulations that are brought forward by any body under the Act.

Mr Kingston: This is my last question on the CCC. How would you describe its role as it relates to that of the commissioner? Will it be advisory? It has some sort of oversight role, but is that not more over the Executive as a whole?

Mr Moffett: It will continue to have an oversight role. The CCC is primarily focused on the UK emissions position. That is the aggregate of the four nations: the DAs and the UK Parliament. The CCC provides advice that is specific to this jurisdiction; in fact, it has done so today. This morning, it published a report on the fourth carbon budget. It will continue to provide such advice. Our commissioner will view through a more forensic lens what is happening here, what our Departments are doing and what policies, programmes and proposals we need to give effect to our net zero ambitions.

Mr Kingston: This is my final question, Chair. The Climate Commissioner will sit under the authority of TEO. Are you satisfied that the office will have sufficient clout when engaging with all Departments and, ultimately, through the Executive Committee to obtain access to information? Its role is primarily to give advice and make recommendations.

Mr Moffett: It should. The Climate Commissioner's role is enshrined in the Act. There are a couple of other requirements. There are cross references in the Act to when advice from the Climate Commissioner will specifically need to be sought by Departments. The commissioner has that role and can provide advice and recommendations to Departments. There is no enforcement role, and the commissioner cannot take any punitive measures. The Climate Commissioner will, however, have the same power as any other commissioner here to make public any of the office's advice, recommendations, concerns or whatever else.

Mr Gaston: Hello, Colin. I have a couple of queries. We know that the target is net zero by 2050, which is 25 years away. I read in the papers that we will be the first region of the UK to have its own Climate Commissioner. Why are we prioritising the issue more than the other regions?

Mr Moffett: I would not necessarily say that we are prioritising it. I want to make it clear that it is a requirement of the Act that we have a Climate Commissioner here. It is required by law. You ask why we will have a Climate Commissioner when others do not. It is because the challenges here are slightly different from what they are in other jurisdictions in that, for a start, we align with two legislative regimes on climate change reduction. We have our own, but we also contribute to UK climate change targets. The Act has also made it clear that we are part of a single biogeographic unit with the Republic of Ireland, so it could be argued that we are part of three regimes. We have quite a complex legislative framework.

The other thing is that our economy is different in nature from that anywhere else across these islands. We have a more dispersed population, fewer large economic centres and a greater reliance on agriculture, so, from a public policy perspective, we have particular challenges on which a Climate Commissioner could help provide more scrutiny.

Mr Gaston: Time after time, when the Committee is looking at historical and legacy issues, we hear that it takes for ever for anything to come out the other end, whereas the Climate Commissioner post, in my eyes, seems to be being prioritised. There is a £1 million budget for the person to create an empire. It is absurd that the role is being prioritised. It blows my mind that £1 million is being set aside to create an empire of red tape. I have massive concerns about this being steamrollered through. Can you give us a breakdown of how much of that £1 million is for staffing and how much is for infrastructure to help set up the office?

Mr Moffett: We can get you the breakdown after today's meeting, although that £1 million, which you have described as having been set aside, has not yet been set aside. It will be subject to business case approval and the moneys being available. To be absolutely clear, the £1 million has not been set aside and is still subject to approval, but we will need to go through that process if and when the regulations are made.

On the issue of a Climate Commissioner being prioritised, I return to what I have already said it today, which is that it is a requirement in law. Section 50 of the Act, which has been law now for almost three years, requires TEO to establish a Climate Commissioner. That is why it is being prioritised.

Mr Gaston: We have 25 years. We are creating an empire, and that empire will grow as time passes. Look at the agri-industry: what this place has agreed to will devastate the backbone of our economy. What role will the commissioner play in wielding the axe on many farmers across Northern Ireland? Will the commissioner provide information and advice to the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs? What role will the office have there?

Mr Moffett: The Climate Commissioner will not play a role in holding any axe. The commissioner will provide advice and recommendations to Departments here on how to manage the transition to a net zero economy. As part of that, it will be important that the commissioner engage with a range of stakeholders, whether it be the farming community, businesses or the community sector here. The commissioner will have to engage across the board.

Mr Gaston: Is the £1 million in the current Budget that is out for consultation?

Mr Moffett: I will have to check that. I am not sure that it is, because, even then, the £1 million budget is per annum. We do not expect much of that to be spent in the current year, given that an appointments process is required before then. With a fair wind, we are talking about the appointment of a Climate Commissioner within the year. That will not draw on much of that £1 million, nor will staffing, by the time that we work that through, so that figure is more likely to apply from the next financial year on.

Mr Gaston: I have one final question. You mentioned that the office is sponsored by TEO. Does that mean that the costs for its empire will come out of the TEO budget?

Mr Moffett: The Climate Commissioner's operating budget will come primarily from TEO, yes.

Mr Gaston: I have serious concerns about what is anticipated to be spent on the Climate Commissioner. I have massive concerns that an empire will be set up and that no good will come of it. Northern Ireland is quite small on a global scale. We have a duty to make sure that the planet is passed on to the next generations in better shape than we inherited it. To go down the route of having somebody wielding an axe on a lot of our industries is not the right way to do that. It will not support business or our agriculture industry. I have concerns about the proposed budget for the office.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you for the update, Colin. I would say that the regulations have taken a long time to get here, Timothy. It has not been a quick process at all. They have been three years in the making, and it is already in law that we appoint a Climate Commissioner. I am happy to see some flesh being put on the bones. The commissioner will be there to support our businesses, particularly the agri-food sector, through the process as they try to achieve the targets that we have set. The complexity of our economy was the reason for including a Climate Commissioner in the legislation, and I welcome that.

There was no legal requirement to carry out a public consultation, but will any engagement take place about the commissioner's role with representatives of relevant groups other than the Climate Change Committee? Has that been factored in in any shape, form or fashion?

Mr Moffett: As you say, it has been almost three years since the Climate Change (No. 2) Bill was passed and given Royal Assent. In that time, we have been engaging with a wide range of stakeholders, including businesses and members of the environmental non-governmental organisation (ENGO) sector, as well as with political parties, through the all-party group (APG) on climate action, and our universities. We have also engaged with some, although not all, of the councils. We have absolutely no qualms about continuing and expanding that engagement, particularly as we get into the operationalisation of the office of Climate Commissioner.

Ms McLaughlin: I have had people ask me, "What is keeping you? Why is there is no commissioner in place yet?". A lot of bodies, including the universities, are looking for that type of engagement.

You said that we are the first region in the UK to establish such an office. Have you looked at any best practice outside the UK where there is a commissioner or a person or office of similar standing?

Mr Moffett: A lot of climate advice bodies operate globally. To be fair, the UK's CCC is held up as a model of best practice. I think that I am right in saying that it was the first formal climate advisory body to be set up globally. There is now a network of over 20 countries that have their own climate advisory body. They all take slightly different approaches but tend to match their approach to their economy or to the challenges that they face.

The countries that stand out include New Zealand, which takes a very precise approach to scrutiny. It looks at its climate change goals and targets and monitors them. The Swedish Government take a slightly broader approach, whereby they assess how all government policy aligns with climate change goals. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

There is a swathe of others. Some prefer to go with the just transition commission approach, the aim of which is to ensure that there is a fair and equitable transition to net zero. The Act allows for us to establish a just transition commission through DAERA. There are lots of models, and we have looked at all of them to see what the best fit is for here. Our Climate Change Act is quite prescriptive, in that it states that the Climate Commissioner will oversee and report on the Act. It provides a framework for what we will do, but we have looked at all the other models.

Ms McLaughlin: OK. Thank you.

Mr Harvey: You mentioned the five subsections. Will you elaborate on subsection (4)?

Mr Moffett: Subsection (4) states that the regulations may specify how the commissioner's oversight and reporting roles are to be undertaken. We have drafted the regulations to state that that will be done through providing advice, making recommendations and publishing reports. We know that the Act does not provide for any enforcement powers, so what we did — we took advice on this — was take a strict interpretation of what "overseeing and reporting" means, and that is how we came to our conclusion.

Mr Harvey: There are no enforcement powers. It is advice.

Mr Moffett: There are no enforcement powers.

Mr Harvey: It is similar to Great Britain, where there is comparable legislation. In the Climate Change Act 2008, there is a body that provides advice, so the two are similar.

Mr Moffett: The CCC provides advice, yes.

Mr Harvey: Thank you.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Is the £1 million figure in keeping with the budgets for establishing the offices of other commissioners? Last week, I could not quite work it out.

Mr Moffett: The £1 million is broadly similar. I think that the operating budget in the most recent financial year for the Commissioner for Older People ended up being just over £1 million. The Commissioner for Children and Young People's operating budget was, I think, slightly lower. The Equality Commission's is higher, but it has a broader range of powers. For bodies that have that advice-type function, it is in and around that figure.

Ms Ní Chuilín: The office is to be established under the Assembly legislation, so it will have to respect that legislation.

Mr Moffett: Absolutely. That is the position. The law that was passed by the Assembly requires us to establish an office of a Climate Commissioner, and it will operate under that.

Ms Ní Chuilín: That is all that I need to know. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Claire has not indicated to ask a question, so I think that that is everything.

Sorry, Timothy, go ahead.

Mr Gaston: Can we get a breakdown of the structure? You said that there would be 15 full-time equivalent posts: in order to give us an idea of average salaries, how much of the proposed £1 million will be for staffing costs and how much will be for the office infrastructure? How much will the commissioner be on? How much will the average worker be paid?

Mr Moffett: I can provide some of that information now. The Climate Commissioner will be paid the same as all commissioners are paid here, so the salary will be on the Civil Service's grade 5 scale.

Mr Gaston: Which is?

Mr Moffett: I do not know the figure off the top of my head — I am saying that the pay band for all commissioners here is at grade 5 — but we can provide the breakdown.

The caveat that I will again apply is that the £1 million is subject to business case approval, so it is an estimate based on what, we think, is reasonable in order to have an effective and efficient commissioner's office.

Mr Dickson: To be fair, it is not unusual or different from that for any of the other commissioners in Northern Ireland. To suggest otherwise would be unreasonable.

Mr Kingston: I want to check something about what we have in our meeting pack. We have a draft statutory rule for 2024. There is no specific date on it. You talked about five subsections.

Mr Moffett: The five subsections are from the Climate Change Act 2022.

Mr Kingston: They do not tally with the regulations.

Mr Moffett: No, they do not. I summarised the five subsections to provide some context for how the regulations were drafted. For your convenience, the five subsections are in section 50 of the Climate Change Act 2022.

Mr Kingston: I was looking for a mention of the Climate Change Committee. I do not see it in the regulations that we have.

Mr Moffett: It is not referenced in them.

Mr Kingston: Is it in the 2022 Act?

Mr Moffett: It is tangentially. I think that it is regulation 6 that will give the commissioner the power to cooperate with other bodies across the UK and in other jurisdictions. The CCC is covered in that in the regulations, but it is named specifically in the Climate Change Act.

Mr Kingston: It is mentioned in the explanatory note once, although that is just in reference to consultation on the setting up of the office. I want to know whether I have the right paperwork to consider.

Mr Moffett: Two documents will give you a complete reading: the Climate Change Act 2022, which was passed by the Assembly — section 50 relates to the Climate Commissioner — and the draft regulations.

Mr Kingston: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you so much, Colin. We appreciate it.

Mr Moffett: Thank you.