Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I welcome Jackie Robinson, director of transport regulation and public transport policy, and Philip Gallagher, head of the taxi and bus policy branch.

As usual, I seek agreement to the evidence being recorded by Hansard.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. Sorry that you have been kept waiting, but these are important matters for us. It is timely that you are before the Committee. We have seen the Minister's announcement of a phased review of the legislation, which we welcome because we have raised the issue a number of times. As you will be aware, we have had a number of evidence sessions on it. Time is short, so please make a brief opening statement, and I will then come to members' questions.

Ms Jackie Robinson (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to brief the Committee today. Members will be aware that the Taxis Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 provides the legislative framework for taxi policy. One of the main changes that that Act introduced, via the Taxi Licensing Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2015, was a new licensing model. That moved us away from the previous public hire model.

Today, we will focus on class C, which includes wedding and funeral cars and now also Uber-style services that can be used only on a pre-booked basis. Permitted uses were structured to enable class C taxi licence holders to operate on what is effectively a private hire basis. That means that there is no legislative requirement to comply with a maximum fare structure.

The Department clearly recognises the differences between the wedding and funeral car industry and standard taxis, and, for that reason, it is exempt from a number of requirements. The intention has always been to put in place a proportionate licensing regime. The current regime is intended to strike the right balance between the important safeguards that are put in place to protect the travelling public and the commercial interests of the businesses. The Department is aware that those in the wedding and funeral car sectors are concerned about how much they are regulated; specifically, the industry has sought exemptions from taxi vehicle licensing and the removal of or a reduction in taxi driver licensing requirements.

All drivers who work for hire or reward are required to have a standard, and the Department has a responsibility to oversee its driver and vehicle standards in promoting road safety and passenger safety. In relation to PSVs, the licensing tests for taxis are conducted in compliance with the Taxi Licensing Regulations 2015, and the PSV test includes the same general vehicle roadworthiness assessment as the MOT. In addition, it focuses on other passenger-related elements, such as access and egress, steps, seating and accessibility. In 2021, the wedding car sector requested to be removed from the existing legislative framework by way of an exemption certificate. Having considered the issue, given due cognisance to the arguments made by the industry and obtained legal advice, the Department decided not to allow the use of certificates. That decision was reached after carefully considering the effect of such an exemption on public road safety, given that that is the main purpose of regulating those who drive for hire or reward.

The Taxi Drivers’ Licences Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2014 introduced a taxi driver test for all new taxi drivers. The requirement for a new taxi driver to have passed a driver theory test and a practical test was introduced to help improve standards in the industry, increase road safety, provide additional assurance to passengers and raise the reputation of the industry as a provider of a quality service. Since its introduction, the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) made a number of changes to the theory-testing regime, including lowering the overall pass mark and producing revision guides for potential new taxi drivers. That has helped potential taxi drivers into the industry while maintaining the benefit of having a test. The practical driving test was conducted by qualified driving examiners who have gone through a rigorous training programme to ensure that they assess a driver's competence to drive to the required standard. Those standards are set by the Department and, as such, ensure that a uniform level is met by a test applicant before they can apply for a taxi driver licence.

You will be aware — the Chair mentioned it — that Minister Kimmins recently indicated that she had instructed officials to present her with options to review the current taxi legislation. You will have seen correspondence from the Minister yesterday, explaining that, having considered the available options and given consideration to the pressing needs of the industry, and being mindful of what can be achieved within the existing Assembly mandate, she has decided that there should be a phased review of taxi policy and legislation. As the first step in that review, a review of class C licences will be carried out. The Minister is very aware that the taxi industry, in particular the wedding and funeral car sectors, has been seeking a review of class C licensing for a number of years. This review is an opportunity to listen to its concerns and consider options for improving the operation of class C. Philip and I are very happy to answer any questions that you have.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Thank you very much. Following on from that last point, the phased review will now take place. What level of engagement is now going to take place with the industry, which has been concerned and has been raising this issue for a number of years? Its main concern has been that it has been saying this for years and has not felt that it has been heard or listened to.

Mr Philip Gallagher (Department for Infrastructure): I was just going to say that there continues to be engagement with the whole of the taxi industry. That engagement goes back to last year, when the previous Minister asked officials to look into a review of taxi policy and legislation. At that stage, we met the class A and class B taxi drivers. Subsequently, I have met with the wedding car sector and had conversations with the two representatives of the sector who were at the Committee in February. The Department fully understands the concerns that the wedding car and funeral car sectors have in particular. The Department, going forward, will clearly have a level of engagement with all of the services that come in under class C licensing.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. They feel that the class C system is onerous. It has been brought up that drivers are not renewing their licences. The Department has stated that as well. What is the historical breakdown of the numbers of class C licences that have been issued, and how has that changed over time?

Mr Gallagher: I have figures in front of me. I will add a caveat because, as you will be aware, and as Jackie has already mentioned, Uber is now in class C, so the figures have actually increased. Prior to COVID, there were, in the last quarter of 2019-2020, 1,240 vehicles in the class C licensing side. That has now increased to 1,650 vehicles in the latest figures that were published in December 2024. That is an increase of 410 vehicles. That having been said, to add context to that, as I understand it, there are 632 licensed class C taxis affiliated to the current Uber taxi operator licence.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Can you repeat that figure?

Mr Gallagher: It is 632.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): There are 632 Ubers.

Mr Gallagher: Yes, Uber is in that. Therefore, you see that a significant proportion of the increase is likely down to Uber's being in class C.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): That is interesting. Do you see any correlation at all between the increase and classes A and B moving to class C, or is it solely down to Uber?

Ms Robinson: I do not think that it is due to classes A and B moving to class C. I think that the change probably relates mainly to Uber drivers coming on board. As part of our terms of reference for the review, which we are currently starting to develop, we will look at that. In the context of the review, we will obviously look at the requirements under the current legislation. We will look at the requirements in other areas, such as GB. The industry has been quite vocal about how its contemporaries have been regulated. We will also look at the Irish working model for that. We will then start to engage more with the industry. I would like to do that because of the difficulties in the sector. Some of the issues are very sector-specific. We will engage with the industry in small groups as opposed to in a big forum. I hope to do that. In that way, we will get to the bottom of what the issues are. We obviously need to develop an evidence base and data. That will help us, the next time that we are here, to better answer your question on classes A, B and C.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I understand the rationale for engaging with small groups rather than in a bigger forum, but that will take a bit of time. Have you any sort of timeline or key milestones by which you hope to work through that?

Ms Robinson: As you will be aware, the Minister just made the announcement yesterday. We are still trying to draft terms of reference, which will give us time frames and allow us to consider how long each piece of work will take. At the moment, we hope to have a lot of that work done by the end of this calendar year, but we need to flesh out what the timeline will actually look like.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. Hopefully, you will keep the Committee informed about the terms of reference and, of course, the timeline by which you hope to work through that.

Mr Gallagher: As we start to scope this out, we will actually start to understand what all will be involved in reviewing class A. We obviously want to ensure that we include everybody in that sector and, as Jackie has said, ensure that we have a fully informed evidence base to allow us to make fully informed decisions as we go forward.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. You mentioned other jurisdictions. Surely, that has been part of the Department's consideration of this before now. What other licensing requirements are there for the wedding and funeral cars industry in other jurisdictions? How do those regulations compare to ours?

Mr Gallagher: As you said, one of the concerns of the industry here is that their counterparts in GB are not regulated. As Jackie said, we are looking at other jurisdictions and are aware that, for instance, in Southern Ireland, there is regulation of the wedding car industry. We will be looking at those different models and understanding, as Jackie said, what is proportionate, Underpinning everything that we are looking to do is that the Department has a responsibility to ensure that road safety and passenger safety are maintained. Looking at other models can help inform what has worked elsewhere and whether there are lessons that can be learned from other jurisdictions.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): Following on from that, what data does the Department have about any instances that may have involved class C licenses historically?

Mr Gallagher: There is little data. Before attending today, I looked to see if there was anything recorded, either locally with the PSNI or anywhere else. Apart from the odd newspaper report in other jurisdictions, I have not come across anything involving the wedding car industry in Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): OK. That is interesting. Will that be part of the discussions around your engagement —.

Mr Gallagher: The data will help inform the policy development. I just had a cursory glance to see if there was anything, but, as part of the review, we will look to see if we can obtain data from somewhere else. It is something that we will look into to help inform whether there are any easements that the Department is considering and allow us to make a fully informed decision.

Mr Stewart: Thanks very much for coming today. It is very timely, given the Minister's letter this week. We all take our hats off to the lobbyists from the wedding sector and the funeral car sector. There is an old saying that it is the hope that kills you, and, for them, that has been the case. They have been told time and time again by the Committee, Ministers and officials that they are pushing at an open door. Almost 20 years on, they are at the point of closure. I am confident that, hopefully, something will be done for their sake because some of them, as you could tell by how they came across last time, are on the verge of giving up, both with their mentality and their businesses. It is deeply frustrating. Regulation, as you know, is there to protect the public, but it is not there to stifle business. We want to see that flexibility.

Philip, you talked about the taxi driver licenses and the things that go with that — the theory and the practical side. They would argue, as they have done, that they are not taxi drivers. Yes, there is pay and reward, but funeral car drivers and wedding car drivers are a different beast. I suppose we can accept, from the Department's point of view, that that was probably not factored in originally. I do not believe that there was the flexibility to acknowledge that they were a different sector and did not necessarily fit into that. I am interested to hear your thoughts on that. In hindsight, should it have been looked at slightly differently at the beginning?

Ms Robinson: Well, I was not there at the beginning.

Mr Stewart: Not many people were.

Ms Robinson: I am not going to say what was or was not considered. In hindsight, should it have been done differently? I do not know. To be honest, I am not going to sit here and pre-empt what a review will come out with. I am really keen that the review is thorough, that it looks at all the sectors and that it looks at the issues. I think that, when we start to talk to the sectors, we will get a better handle on what the issues are. As Philip said, we will be looking for an evidence base and data to help support any policy decisions that we come up with. We will need that engagement with the sector. There are various options that we could consider going forward. For example, should we have a new class which is just for wedding and funeral cars, or should there be a different way of doing exemption certificates? At the moment, the exemption certificate is a very blunt instrument and does not necessarily —. There are lots of things that we need to think about and weigh up using the data and the evidence that we have, and then we will come to policy recommendations, which will go to the Minister before going to consultation.

Mr Stewart: I know that they have no problem with that consultation. They have been very forthcoming over many years in submitting requests and defences of their sector. I know that they will be very supportive of that.

There are some aspects that funeral and wedding car instructors have to go through. The certificate of professional competence and how it has very little application to the role has been highlighted constantly. As someone who has been through it — I think that Andrew has as well — I know that, at times, it is borderline pointless for many of the people who have to go through it to tick a box. I have to do it through a second job for a minibus driver. I think that Andrew had to do it for his one. The wedding and funeral car sectors will say that most of it is totally irrelevant. That is quite frustrating when you are giving up time and money to do that. Is there an acknowledgement in the Department that that is a one-size-that-fits-nobody project at the minute?

Mr Gallagher: I am aware that one of the sector's frustrations is that those people consider that some of that periodic training is not relevant to them, but there is a lot within that that is relevant. There is disability training, for instance, within that. If they are involved in carrying disabled passengers, information is relayed to them in training in that particular sphere. It is important that the drivers of those vehicles are made disability-aware. Is all of it relevant? We can look at that as part of the review. As Jackie said, is there anything that we can do to tailor licensing to that particular sector? Is that an option? We recognise that the sector is very much different to the standard taxi sector. We have mentioned that there are certain things that wedding and funeral cars do not have to do. There are no operator licences, and they do not have any meters or roof signs. There are a number of things that recognise that they are not a standard taxi. Yes, as part of the review, we can certainly look into training to understand whether a more tailored model would be better. It is not the case that none of that training is relevant —

Mr Stewart: No, no.

Mr Gallagher: — because I have highlighted one aspect. I think that all of us very much want all drivers to be disability-aware when they are carrying people.

Mr Stewart: Having done it, I know that some of it is important, but a lot of it is irrelevant. That is just the nature of it. It could maybe be looked into, and I am glad that that will be the case.

Finally, the sector highlighted some of the other sectors out there that had benefited from the exemptions. Which sectors or car providers have been awarded exemption certificates to date?

Mr Gallagher: My understanding is that the nursery side — childcare — is where it came in under, but, as I said, this was fully considered, as Jackie mentioned, in 2021. Legal advice was sought because of concerns in and around an exemption certificate. It potentially removes the wedding and funeral car sectors completely — complete deregulation. I listened to the briefing from Mike Barr and Pete McCracken on 19 February, and Mike acknowledged that they are not looking for complete deregulation and that they recognise the importance of regulation. To summarise, they do not feel that it is proportionate. They feel that it is onerous, and they are looking for something that is more proportionate.

Mr Stewart: Sector-specific, I think, would be the requirement. That is fair.

To finish, on the situation elsewhere, you said that parts of GB —. Actually, I do not think that any part of GB has regulation in relation to this, having looked into it. Is that something that would flag up serious concerns for the Department, or are there other areas that have a best-practice process in how they regulate this?

Ms Robinson: We are still in the very early stages of thinking about what the review is. We are aware of the differences in regulation and will investigate that, but, as opposed to just understanding what the regulation is, we want to understand the impact of regulation or non-regulation. We will need to do a bit of work and policy research around that.

Mr Gallagher: The context of this, as I understand it, is that there has not been regulation in GB for —. I do not know whether there was ever regulation of wedding and funeral cars. It is always more difficult to deregulate than —. We are coming from a position where 50 or 60 years —. As I understand it, the legislation here is going back where the industry here has been regulated. We are coming from that position of regulation, and we are now looking at what is proportionate — that word again — in how that industry is regulated going forward.

Mr Stewart: Thank you. On behalf of the sectors, I hope that we can see some progress on that. It would be a real shame to see good, long-standing businesses go to the wall because they cannot find drivers.

Mr Gallagher: The Minister announced a phased review. Its aim was to see what we could deliver. In taking that approach, the Minister has recognised that this is something that, hopefully, will be achievable within this Assembly mandate and that we can have something that will deliver for all of those services that operate under class C licensing in Northern Ireland.

Mr Stewart: OK, thank you very much; I appreciate that.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): I will now hand over to our other driver on the Infrastructure Committee. [Laughter.]

Mr McMurray: I am a cyclist today, thankfully, but that is a different story.

This question may be difficult or impossible to answer. Are there any concerns around unintended consequences when you change these things about? The public get into these vehicles and, as was mentioned, there is an acknowledgement that some regulation is required.

Ms Robinson: Again, I am not going to pre-empt the outcome of the review. However, one of the considerations in relation to not allowing the exemption certificate is that, as I said before, as it currently sits, it is a blunt instrument and would take the sector totally out of regulation. That would mean that anybody who had that exemption certificate would be permitted to take their vehicles through the standard MOT, so no MOT for the first four years and then annually, which would not look at things such as access and egress, which are particularly important in the sector. We have to think about the wider context. That would have been one of the unintended consequences of it. We are very careful about what we will look at, and we will try to follow those through.

Mr McMurray: We touched on nursery provision and stuff like that. Has any thought been given to licences for drivers, if you will, whose driving is additional to their job rather than the sole function of the job? I am using the example of nursery provision, where the nursery care is the sole function and the driving is additional to that. I was previously an outdoor pursuits instructor and I had to drive a minibus. I was, essentially, classed as a professional driver, but I was not. I was driving children around hills, forests and rivers and places like that. Has any consideration been given to those sorts of jobs, where the driving is additional rather than the sole function, if that makes sense?

Ms Robinson: I know exactly what you mean. I am not aware of any consideration of that to date. I do not know whether Philip knows anything about that.

Mr Gallagher: No.

Ms Robinson: If you were driving my child, I would like to know that you had a standard of driving. There is that balance with regulation as well.

Mr McMurray: It touches on the whole — I get the point, yes.

Mr Durkan: Thanks to the folks for coming along. It is positive to hear or see some signs of progress on this issue. The sector has been waiting for a long time, and it has been promised a few times, but now we finally seem to be seeing progress.

The Minister has pledged to have a phased review. We have talked in this session about the first phase, which will involve the wedding and funeral car sector. That may be the low-hanging fruit — or at least I hope that it is. The second phase that the Minister has referred to will be around access to or availability of wheelchair-accessible taxis. Will you be dealing with that, or will it be other personnel? Will we have to wait until the first phase is concluded before that vital piece of work can start?

Ms Robinson: When the Minister was considering this, she needed to do so in the context of the available resources and what was deliverable in the current mandate. On the basis of that, she decided to take a phased approach. Both phases will use the same resource within the Department, so they will not be done at the same time. However, when we are trying to develop our terms of reference for the first phase, I will be looking at whether there is potential scope to start work on phase 2. If, for example, we go out for a 12-week period of public consultation, where there will not be policy development ongoing, that may be an opportunity for us to start working through the next phase of the review. We will be very much looking towards that, but we have one resource team within the Department that will be looking at all of the review.

Mr Durkan: That is precisely the type of approach that I was hoping to hear that you would take. I am glad to hear that you might take it. We will apply what political pressure we can, without overburdening you, to ensure that that can happen, just to avoid further delay and it being too late to anticipate outcomes of that, prior to consultation. I look forward to that. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): No other members want to come in. I will ask what I hope is a simple question. How was it determined that Uber-style taxis would be classified as class C rather than class A or class B?

Mr Gallagher: It predates my time, but, as I understand it, there was an application back then from Uber to go into class C. The legislation as it stands allows Uber to operate under class C, which is, essentially, private hire and reward.

Ms Robinson: And because it can only take pre-bookings.

The Chairperson (Mrs Erskine): It is important to put on record that the Committee is not against regulation. There obviously needs to be a balance between safety and all of that. That is important. The word that has come up quite a bit in Committee is "proportionality". The Committee is looking for a bit of proportionately for the industry and to balance that with the public safety aspect that there needs to be.

That is all from the Committee at this stage. We will be watching the review and how that goes very carefully. I would be grateful if you could keep the Committee abreast of the terms of reference and the timescales, because that will help in our deliberations and our communications with the industry. We appreciate your time. Thank you for coming.