Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): I welcome Josephine Deehan, Sheamus Greene, Bernard McGrath, John McClaughry and Allan Rainey. Thank you for making the journey to brief the Committee. I should declare an interest: I served on the council with most of you. My late father served with your late father, Bernard. Áine, Tom and I are very familiar with the trek up and down, so it is great to see you making the trip up here today to highlight the challenges for and the needs of the Fermanagh and Omagh district. I invite you to give us your briefing, after which we will go to questions from members. Do you want to kick off, Allan?

Councillor Allan Rainey (Fermanagh and Omagh District Council): Thank you. It really is a pleasure to be here with you today. Thank you for the opportunity and for setting the scene for us to come along and put across the various points that are such a problem for us in the farming area of Fermanagh and Omagh District Council. As chair of the agricultural liaison group (ALG), I will set the scene. Before proceeding with our important evidence, I will take a moment to provide some context for our discussion.

Fermanagh and Omagh District Council is the largest of the 11 councils in terms of physical geography and is a predominantly rural area, with two thirds of our population living in rural communities. The district is one of the most biodiverse in the region, with 30 priority habitats and 216 priority species. We also have the largest land border with the Republic of Ireland.

The council continues to be a strong advocate for rural dwellers and communities. Close to 70% of the population of Fermanagh and Omagh live in a rural setting, and that has strongly influenced the council's approach to service delivery, investment and long-term planning. The importance of addressing the needs of a rural region and promoting the well-being of rural communities remains a key focus for the council.

When it comes to the local economy, the agri-food sector is significant, comprising 46% of all businesses in Fermanagh and Omagh and accounting for 21% of our total employment. Our tourism sector, comprising 9% of local jobs, is focused on regenerative tourism, including natural heritage, and the council has prepared and adopted a climate change and sustainable development strategy to reduce the effect of our collective actions on the climate.

In light of the significant challenges that our agriculture sector is experiencing, the agricultural liaison group welcomes the opportunity to meet the Committee today to make representations on behalf of our rural constituents and agri-food businesses. Thank you for affording us the opportunity to set the scene, Chair.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you, Allan. Bernard?

Councillor Bernard McGrath (Fermanagh and Omagh District Council): Thank you, Chair.

Members, you will be aware that one of the most concerning policy changes made by the Labour Government at the time of the October 2024 Budget related to the implementation of agricultural property relief (APR) from 2026. That one-size-fits-all approach does not recognise the operational viability of farms in regional and outlying areas such as Fermanagh and Omagh now or in the future and will have far-reaching consequences not only financially but for the well-being and health and safety of farmers and members of farming families.

Northern Ireland-wide data for farm value reveals that, in 2022-23, the average farm in Northern Ireland had a net wealth of £1·48 million. While no council-specific figures are available, we are assured that the majority of farms in our area are dairy or cattle and sheep, operating on less-favoured land and tend to be smaller than average.

The critical point is that even a small inheritance tax bill will significantly eat into farm income over a number of years, while a large inheritance tax bill could render a farm business financially unviable. In the Fermanagh and Omagh District Council area and wider rural communities, agricultural property relief has created fear in family farm businesses. We seek support through the Committee to help to identify approaches to redress that policy, as it will impact on the future sustainability of farm businesses and create a risk that the next generation of farmer will not be able to take up their family farm, with consequences for the financial well-being and health and safety of farm businesses and farm family members.

Councillor Sheamus Greene (Fermanagh & Omagh District Council): Thanks, everyone, for meeting us today.

Committee members, at this time of genuine financial uncertainty when, in some cases, the survival of our local farming businesses is in doubt, we would like to share some of the fears of those businesses.

The council is aware of the new sustainable agriculture programme of farm support and acknowledges that its overall aim is to transition to a more sustainable farming sector by seeking to implement policies and strategies that benefit our climate and environment while supporting our economically and socially significant agri-food sector.

A critical concern is that the value of that support to the farm business will be reduced. The programme is being introduced in a phased manner over the coming months and years. It focuses on just transition and will provide options for all farm businesses in Northern Ireland.

We cannot overstate the importance of farm entitlements to our local farm businesses, and, at this time, clarification from the Department on the transition from the basic payment scheme to the farm sustainability transition scheme in 2025 is essential. We also seek assurances from the Department that the scheme will be delivered in a fair and equitable way to all farms, geographically and by product or production, and that payments, rather than being reduced, will be increased in line with the cost of living and the cost of doing business.

I will now talk about the need for the reinstatement of the areas of natural constraint (ANC) payment. Councillors are of the view that the Department's new funding model will likely have a significant, adverse effect on the district. The 'Statistical Review of Agriculture 2022', carried out by the Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) on behalf of DAERA, stated:

20,506 of which were classified as small or very small. The statistical review explains that those farms contribute 20% of the industry’s total standard output and are mostly cattle and sheep farms, with "over 34,000 persons" working on them. The review also mentions that those farm enterprises are mainly in less-favoured areas (LFAs).

Committee members, the ANC payment was important to farms in less-favoured areas in the Fermanagh and Omagh District Council area, particularly to ensure their sustainability. While councillors acknowledge the Farm Sustainability (Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2025 — the replacement of the current basic payment scheme, which will allow for the payment of the farm sustainability transition payment from 3 March 2025 — we seek assurance that future payments will be at least financially equivalent to previous schemes.

Furthermore, councillors are concerned by the inclusion of the suckler cow scheme in those regulations. Farm businesses in our rural communities feel at a disadvantage due to their peripherality and poorer land, which, if the Farming with Nature and knowledge transfer schemes progress, will make them less competitive.

In most recent years, the basic payment scheme has incorporated the previously paid ANC payment. Members wish to ensure that there will be no financial loss to those farming communities that had previously received the ANC payment as a separate payment.

It is also a concern that the direction of travel of the new payment scheme appears to be moving away from a land-based model to a production-based model. We are of the opinion that that will have a detrimental impact, mostly on farm enterprises in less-favoured areas, and that that impact will be felt widely in our district, given the proportion of less-favoured areas.

With the loss of EU funding to rural communities in 2023 and considering the Department's data showing a significant proportion of farm enterprises in less-favoured areas, we request that the Department reconsider providing a stand-alone ANC payment under the framework.

Councillor John McClaughry (Fermanagh and Omagh District Council): The council met Minister Muir in September 2024 to discuss the adverse weather. During that meeting, he acknowledged the poor weather conditions that the local farming community was experiencing at that time, leading to days and weeks when farmers could not access their land.

Members were disappointed to hear that the Department had not requested additional funding through the Executive monitoring round at that time to address the impacts of the adverse weather conditions.

We were also concerned to hear that a different approach had been progressed by the Irish Government, which meant that neighbouring cross-border farmers were benefiting from adverse weather support schemes, adding to the ever-challenging issue of local farm competitiveness.

Members are strongly of the view that the adverse weather payment would greatly assist farms in the district. We would be grateful for advice on whether budget provision could be supported to fund that needed payment scheme and whether there is an opportunity to resource the payment through the next Executive monitoring round.

Councillor Rainey: If you will allow me, Chair, I will come in for a short period to talk about climate change and environmental matters and their impact on the rural community. It is accepted that climate change and environmental matters are having challenging consequences for the way of life in our rural communities. That can be seen from the recent storm, local flooding, reduction of air quality, the requirement to reduce levels of ammonia and the ability to spread slurry.

In light of those challenges, we wish to draw attention to emerging research by the University of Oxford that reveals that sewage discharge into rivers has a greater impact on water quality and the animals and plants that live in rivers than on surrounding land use. That has strong implications for the state of rivers in light of the recent threats to weaken nutrient neutrality regulations for new housing developments emerging in England. The findings have been published in the journals 'Global Change Biology' and 'Ecological Solutions and Evidence'.

Members are aware that emission levels continue to be seen as primarily a farming problem, in some cases impacting on the ability to undertake further farm development. We consider that access to the most accurate and up-to-date data to provide a climate change and environmental baseline is essential in addressing and managing the issues.

We also wish to ensure a fair and just transition for farming so that farmers have access to a financial support funding stream from the Department to support the industry in reducing ammonia emissions.

Another area of concern for farming is the control of bovine tuberculosis. I hardly need to elaborate on that; everyone is aware of it. At this time, the policies, programmes and tools being used do not appear to be working, with heavy consequences for farm herds and family farm sustainability. We hear at first hand the grave impact that the disease is having on local herds and, again, on the financial well-being of the farmer and family farm members. We ask that consideration be given to new, innovative approaches to help to eradicate the disease and for those to be delivered in a timely way.

For those of you who may not know, I will clarify that I come from a farming background. I am no longer involved, but the boys are carrying on the farming project. Very recently, they had — these are facts — two clear herd tests, but, within a fortnight, when they put animals into the factory, one of them turned out to be positive. Maybe you would say that that was what is known as a carrier, and maybe it was. It was good to rid the herd of that particular animal, but a solution must be found to pick up an animal such as that, because, if it is left in the herd to spread bovine TB to the other animals on the farm, that is totally disastrous. I would like you to take that into consideration.

Councillor Josephine Deehan (Fermanagh and Omagh District Council): Good morning, Chair and members. It is a great privilege to be able to address the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. Thank you so much for giving us your time this morning.

I want to specifically address the area of the successor plan, or the successor programme, to the much-valued rural development programme. The rural development programme was of critical importance to our district council area. Our committee chair, Councillor Rainey, in his introductory remarks, outlined the facts that 70% of all residents in our district council area live in rural areas and that the agri-food sector comprises 46% of all businesses in our district council area, providing 21% of all employment, with tourism providing 9%. Therefore, you can see how we, as a council, work hard to protect the interests of our rural communities, which we value so highly.

Our council acknowledges the Department's work on the rural policy framework, which was to replace the series of rural development programmes that was part-funded by the European Union. In the time that Fermanagh and Omagh District Council availed itself of those programmes — between 2016 and 2022 — we delivered 148 projects through the local action groups (LAGs), including match funding almost £14 million worth of projects, of which £8·4 million was contributed by the rural development programme. Therefore, you can see how important that was to us and our economy. Those programmes supported rural businesses, farm businesses and farm diversification and also helped to enhance our rural settlements, which are so important for the sustainability and viability of our rural communities.

We have had no funding since 2022. We acknowledge the work that you have already done, but our concern is that the plans for replacement or successor programmes have been delayed, as have the budgets and time frames. The similar-scale programmes were so important to Fermanagh and Omagh District Council, so we would like to see these progressed as soon as possible and would greatly appreciate your cooperation in that area.

I will move on, Chair, if I may. Councillor Rainey referred to the climate change agenda. We on Fermanagh and Omagh District Council are all deeply committed to doing whatever we, as a local authority, can to mitigate the effects of climate change, which is having such a devastating effect on our communities. Our concern is the public-sector cost of the climate action plan, which we support. Members are aware that some figures were provided on the public-sector cost of the climate action plan. Those indicate that the delivery of the 2023-27 plan will require an investment of £1·3 billion in capital, dominated by residential buildings, transport and public buildings, representing approximately 75%, and £1 billion in resource, dominated by agriculture and residential, which account for almost 85% of the total cost. Our committee is concerned that the agriculture sector will have to foot that enormous bill disproportionately compared with other sectors. We would like to get an assurance from the Committee that the plans, time frames and budgets to deliver the climate action plan will not have a resultant negative impact on the financial support to farm businesses or, indeed, impose great stress on a sector that is already experiencing significant financial constraints. Thank you, Chair and members.

Councillor McClaughry: Chair and members, there were a number of other topics that you were interested in getting an update on, so I will conclude with those before handing back to Allan.

On access to the public angling estate, the council was extremely concerned to learn this year of the withdrawal of funding for the Fermanagh Classic fishing festival and related events. The council welcomed the Minister's subsequent change of position on that. Departmental support for the event, financially and practically, is essential to its proceeding. The annual Fermanagh Classic fishing festival makes use of the public angling estate and brings over 180 visiting anglers from out of state to the council area, bringing very important benefits to the local economy and tourism. Any removal of departmental support for the event in the future would mean that the event could not proceed.

On rivers and water pollution in our council area, as a council, we have repeatedly raised concerns with the relevant statutory agencies — the NIEA and NI Water — about water pollution. Members would welcome an update on what assurances the Committee has received about what will be done to address the matter. Specifically, we are interested in the issue of blue-green algae. There has been an emphasis on Lough Neagh, including in the recently published Programme for Government (PFG), but we would be grateful for an update on what has been done for other watercourses, including Lough Erne, Lough Melvin and the lough at Garrison, each of which has had significant reports of blue-green algae.

On access to DAERA nature spaces, members are concerned that some Forest Service facilities are running into a state of disrepair, the expectation being that the council will intervene. Members are also extremely concerned about the impacts of storm Éowyn and the Forest Service response to the repair of electric lines following that event. Members are keen to understand from the Committee whether there are future plans to mitigate the impact of Forest Service trees on electrical supplies on its estates in order to avoid such issues in the future.

Members would also be grateful for clarification from the Committee on what plans you understand are being put in place for replanting schemes throughout the forest estate.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you, John.

Councillor Rainey: Before we reach our concluding remarks, Chairman, you may, perhaps, have some questions that you would like to pose to us, or there may be some other incidental highlights that we would like to share with you, if time permits.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Yes, that is 100%, Allan.

Councillor Rainey: We do not want to totally bore you with all of our statistics, but it was important that we made our presentation as factual as humanly possible. Perhaps we could move on to an interchange with each other, if that is your desire.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): That is great. Thanks very much for what was a very wide-ranging presentation. You raised a good range of topics that I can fully identify with, being from the area myself. A number of members want to engage with you and draw out a few things, but there are a couple of wee things that I want to take a look at.

Josephine, I share your frustration about the rural development programme, because I am very familiar with how it has benefited the district, the wider North and, indeed, the whole of the island. You will recall that, in the past, we had local action groups — Allan may have been a member of one — that identified local strategies. Would you like to see that type of infrastructure being brought back in a new programme going forward, where local councillors and social partners would help to identify local strategies and work with the Department and others to draw in funding?

Councillor Deehan: Yes, I would, absolutely. The beauty of the local action groups was that they involved local communities, which were very much aware of their local needs. Together with those communities, the local action groups could spearhead projects that would bring definite benefits. In the past, the council invited members of this Committee to come down, if they chose to do so, to view some of the wonderful projects that had been undertaken in our council area.

The challenge, as you will be aware, is that we are such a rural council area. We are seeing some of our towns, villages and small settlements falling into disrepair, and our local populations are moving to the bigger towns and cities. That is not what we want to see. We want sustainable and vibrant rural communities. As you know, the rural development programme provided village renewal schemes, support for farm diversification and so many other programmes that were of direct benefit to rural communities and helped to sustain their futures, which, as you know, Chair, are constantly under attack. We have lost virtually all of our rural post offices. Our rural primary schools are closing because the population is not there to feed into them. We want to halt that and make our rural communities vibrant. That is why the successor to the rural development programme will be so vital. We would appreciate that being moved forward as soon as possible. Yes, I favour the structure of local action groups implementing local projects.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thank you, Josephine. I will turn to another topic before I move around the room. I should have said that the Chair of the Committee, Robbie Butler, had another engagement, and that is why I am chairing this session. I am going to see it out; I have started, so I will finish. It is also important to mention that, whilst the Committee is external to the Department, we are a sounding board and we listen. This is a public forum, and the Minister says that he watches the meetings every day. Of course, we have the departmental Assembly liaison officer with us as well.

I will ask about one more topic before I move to members. Sheamus, you said in your presentation that more clarification was needed on the transition to the new basic payment. What sort of questions are you picking up from the farming community that the Department needs to answer as they make the transition to the new single farm payment, as I call it?

Councillor Greene: I had a meeting in a local centre and brought down DAERA officials to explain the new rules and regulations. They were finding it difficult to explain it to farmers, and that left farmers leaving the meeting quite confused. One thing that I picked up on from a number of farmers was that the basic payment scheme was pretty straightforward: you applied for it; you had to adhere to certain rules to qualify; and, if you did that, you got your payment. Going by the new regulations and the new schemes, a farmer has to apply to eight schemes now, instead of one, to get a similar amount of money to what they will have got previously. I am not criticising civil servants or bureaucracy, but we all know that when eight different schemes come in, with eight sets of regulations and eight sets of checks, it multiplies and balloons, and it is the farmer who ends up at the bottom of the pile having to deal with red tape on top of red tape. When Brexit was being talked about, one of the big selling points for the people who were in favour of it was that there would be less red tape and bureaucracy. This is the complete opposite of that. The basic area scheme could have been rejigged to take in all of the stuff with, in my opinion, not much having to be done to it. To have eight schemes and all of the red tape is one of the farmers' major concerns as they go into this.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Yes, so added bureaucracy. I am going to move round the room. Robbie Butler.

Mr Butler: I will come in at the end, if that is all right. I am conscious that I did not get to hear some of it, but I have read the pack. I am very interested in picking up on some areas.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you very much for your presentation. The briefing was a great summary of the concerns that the Committee has had since we came back into office last year. Thank you for that; it was very welcome.

John, you raised the issue of the payments for adverse weather. That is something that I have raised, because the Strangford constituency was hit very hard in 2023-24 by flooding and the subsequent impact on crops. I met the Department and, when the Minister came into post, I put pressure on him. The difficulty with all of these things is that they do not meet the value-for-money test and therefore require a ministerial direction. Naturally, there will be a reluctance to do that, particularly from a new Minister. It is therefore important that we have a crisis payment framework in place, and we have been given assurances by the Department that that is something that it is going to work on. It would be useful for your group to liaise with the Department on that new future payment scheme in particular. You would certainly have my support on that, given the circumstances in my constituency.

A substantial amount of agricultural land has recently been vested for the A5, and I have met a number of landowners in relation to that. What support are you, as a body, giving to landowners and farmers who have been affected by the vesting process, and in particular those who had yards taken, or maybe half their sheds taken, and their own properties under threat, who will then have to go through a planning process which is challenging in itself? Added to that are the issues with the ammonia policy. What support are you giving to those landowners?

Councillor McClaughry: Bernard or Allan would probably be in a better position to inform you about that, because it is more at the Tyrone end. I have been approached by a few farmers, however, and there are fences up, hedges down and no money in their bank accounts. They cannot understand how somebody can walk in and take over their land. As a council, we support them by writing to them, saying, "You need to up your game here. There's a sequence of events." It is like somebody coming along, saying, "We're going to build in your garden", and they start building, but you do not have any money or anything to say, "This is what you're getting", and a settlement. If there are any negotiations, we go along and try to assist. I will let Allan and Bernard speak about that.

Councillor McGrath: Recently, the Ulster Farmers' Union had a meeting in the Silverbirch Hotel, Omagh. All the parties were there, as well as 200 or 300 farmers. After the meeting, Daniel McCrossan, who is my MLA, was approached by a few farmers, and he advised them to hook up with agents to keep the thing going forward. There has been a definite impact. Farmers are now starting to say, "Maybe this is the right way we have to go. We can't keep holding up this road any longer." That was very helpful.

There were a couple of farmers there that day who lost ground to the Toome bypass. They told stories about some of the things that were not correct after the road was built — for example, going into a field that was maybe two metres below the road. They were more or less saying that now is the time to speak to DFI Roads and get all those wee things done. If you need an overpass or an underpass, get your speak in now and get it done. Hopefully, that helped in that case.

Councillor Rainey: I live almost halfway between Omagh and Ballygawley on a section of the A5 known as a 2+1. When that was being considered, I was an advocate for it. I thought that that would be ideal. Little did I know that one of the sections of the 2+1 was going to commence about 300 metres from my avenue. On the approach to the 2+1, motorists, HGV drivers and all traffic users are totally frustrated when it comes to overtaking, and as soon as they see it, it is "whoosh". I can tell you, you really need to have your wits about you there. As a result, I have been an advocate for the new carriageway. I have done my best to defend it against those who advocate that an upgrade to the existing A5 would be a better solution. If they lived on it for a while or if they came to live with me for a weekend, that would change their minds.

Since all this has come about, you would not believe that I am starting to take on the concerns of the farmers who are losing land and property because of the predicament that they find themselves in. They do not have any knowledge of what the remuneration is going to be. If you know, perhaps you will share that with us. That is the situation in which we find ourselves. It is totally unrealistic for people to have to live with that millstone round their necks, and that people can just develop the opening and come in and fence off your farm, property, farmyard, or whatever, and you are not the boss in your own territory. It is a dreadful situation. I ask you, with whatever power you have, to come to the aid of those people and ensure that they are adequately reimbursed for the property that they stand to lose, because, although it may be a bonanza for some people who are coming towards the end of their farming life, for most of the remainder, who are enthusiastic farmers who want to progress, they need to know how much is going to be made available to them so that they can take a look around and see whether they will have to move to a different locality and buy a different holding, dispense with whatever bit of holding they have, or whatever. All the scenarios out there are unbelievable.

Councillor Deehan: Chair, may I come in briefly?

Councillor Rainey: Can you tell us what your plans are?

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): I should say, Allan, that I was at the meeting that Bernard referenced, and a lot of issues were raised. First and foremost, the incalculable loss of life is incredible on that road, which is one of the busiest roads in Ireland and has the most fatalities on it. Allan, where you live, you are very familiar with it. It is notorious. What we did was we had a joint meeting with the Infrastructure Committee on the issue. We made representations to Land and Property Services (LPS) and DFI to iron out whatever mitigations need to be put in place to resolve outstanding issues and try to get the road development moving ahead. I am conscious that it is all part of a court case now, so I do not want to talk much further about the A5 at the moment. Michelle, do you want to come back in on that?

Miss McIlveen: Yes, really just to conclude. I was curious to know whether the council, as a body, had considered how it might support landowners in particular through the planning process. Perhaps I am leaving that with you to consider what steps you can put in place in order to assist those who are affected.

Councillor Greene: On that point about the council, I will just say that the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) is the main block to new farm buildings and such. Really, the council planners have been held up with all the applications that are in for new farm buildings, usually because of NIEA and the ammonia thing. We are probably talking to the wrong body here, and it is NIEA that needs to be —.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): I think that it needs to be

.

Miss McIlveen: That issue has been raised and the point has been made. My point was really that you, as a body, could look at what support you are putting in place.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Josephine, do you want to come in on that point?

Councillor Deehan: Yes. Thank you, Declan, and thank you, Miss McIlveen, for your question. It is a good one. I wanted to come in on that because a close family friend is a member of one of the farming families that is affected by the A5 development. From a very early stage, I have been very cognisant of the disruption that those farming families would suffer due to the planned A5 development. We all know, if you come from a farming background, that every yard of farmland is vital to the farmer, so it is difficult. As a council, obviously, we support the human rights of every individual. It is our expectation that the rights of those farming families will be fully respected and addressed. Some years ago, when the then Minister for Infrastructure, Minister O'Dowd, came to the council, I asked him if the concerns raised by the farming families had been fully explored and addressed. Also, in a previous mandate, Councillor Wilson was a strong advocate for the rights of farming families. As a council, we are very cognisant of that. The direct responsibility for making sure the needs of the farming families are addressed lies with other authorities, but we will take Miss McIlveen's comments on board.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thanks for raising it.

Ms Murphy: Thank you for making the trek up the road this morning to brief us. The briefing has been very comprehensive, and I agree with absolutely everything that has been raised.

The Committee wrote to Forest Service after the storm asking for a briefing on some of the mitigating steps that it may take in the future. With regard to Forest Service's relationship with you, has there been any engagement since the storm? What are the next steps with the Forest Service?

Councillor Greene: I will take that question. Forest Service is probably the most frustrating organisation to deal with. I live in the middle of a forested area. I feel that Forest Service has no empathy with the local community. It is like a foreign body that comes in and walks all over the community.

After storm Éowyn, I met the Forest Service and brought the names of a number of constituents whose fields had been partly covered with fallen trees up to 20 metres across the field, which meant they could not be ploughed. The cattle could not be put into the fields or spread slurry because the fences were down. That was maybe a month ago, and the trees are still there, even though I was assured that it was a priority and would be acted on immediately. In one place where the Forest Service cut the trees, the fences are lying flat on the ground, and the farmers cannot put their cattle out in the field. When I asked if the Forest Service would fix the fences because its trees tossed them, it said that it would look at that on a one-by-one basis. Nobody's fences have been fixed as yet.

The power lines that go through the forest are another story. When I raised the issue, the Forest Service said it was a way leave issue with Northern Ireland Electricity (NIE). I took it that the Forest Service wanted NIE to pay for the trees to be cut away from the power lines. The trees tower above the power lines that run through the forest. It would not take a storm like what we have had before to toss more trees, because they are already ready to go. Where I live, there are vast areas of forest where, if any kind of a storm comes, the trees will come down on the power lines again. It is a disaster waiting to happen, and the Forest Service is sitting on its hands as usual and doing nothing. That is my humble opinion of the Forest Service. Maybe I am the wrong person to ask about the Forest Service, because I have a particular view.

Councillor McClaughry: I live in what is known as the geopark, which covers Fermanagh and Cavan. Forest Service is harvesting the felled trees at the moment, and they are going to local sawmills. They are not going to waste.

Forest Service has to be the only part of any Department that has an income outside of what government gives it. The price of timber has not gone down, and the price of building materials has shot up, so it is making money. As far as I understand it, it is obliged to provide an environment in which the community can exercise and use the facilities, but that is increasingly being offloaded to us as a council. We are taking that on, but we are not seeing any reciprocity from Forest Service. It has come into what was a forested area beside me, which people walked through. That is completely devastated now; it has been completely cleared. Storm Éowyn had a lot to do with that. I can actually see the lake for the first time since I was a child. There must be acres of trees that have gone. Those have been harvested and stacked and are ready to be taken away. Lorries are there all the time, collecting them. It falls to us, as a council, to repair paths and do all of that sort of work, but Forest Service is banking the money from the trees, no matter what happens.

Ms Murphy: Chair, I think that it would be very useful for the Committee to log those comments and raise those concerns with Forest Service when it comes in front of us.

I have one, quick question. I think that Sheamus touched earlier on the move away from the ammonia standing advice. How big of an impact is that having on farmers throughout the Fermanagh and Omagh district, and in the planning office in the council as well?

Councillor Greene: It is having a huge impact. It is about farm buildings and sustainability. I watched — I have a sad life — Stormont questions to the Minister one day. One of the questions — I am not sure who asked it — was about whether, if a farmer was replacing a building that was causing a lot of emissions and was able to guarantee that putting up a shed would prevent 80% of all emissions escaping from the building, he would get planning permission. The Minister said no, he would not. If that is the type of thing that our Department, and even Planning Service, has to deal with, we may as well be in a national park. If farmers cannot improve their buildings and the environment, we may as well be in a museum. Basically, they are being told, "No, keep your old building. Put out as much emissions as that building's putting out, and don't dare put up a new one that would save 80%". That is an incredible position from the Department to be putting out to farmers.

It is a huge issue. Loads of farmers, including young farmers, are trying to develop their farms and replace old buildings, but they cannot; they are in limbo at the minute. That has been going on for a number of years. I am not sure whether any of you are able to tell me whether there is an end in sight, or whether a solution is coming. We never hear tell of it. I do not know. Farmers like to plan for the future, but they cannot.

Ms Murphy: We should write to the Department, or maybe even NIEA, to seek an update on the situation. It has been going on for a number of years. NIEA contends that it deals with cases on a case-by-case basis. William has raised issues about that previously. We should write to the Department, and maybe even NIEA, to find out exactly what is going on.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): And to see where the ammonia action plan is.

Ms Murphy: Yes.

Councillor McGrath: In Northern Ireland, we produce enough food for 10 million people. Compared to other parts of the UK, we have a lot more intensive farming going on.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): It is important to point out that the Fermanagh and Omagh district, which is a beautiful landscape, has a lot of special conservation areas. The more special conservation areas you have, the more the ammonia challenge will have an impact on you.

Mr Blair: Thanks to all who have presented and answered questions. I do not want to repeat questions that have already been asked, so I will try to throw something else into the mix, if you do not mind. I am keen to know how you work with other bodies more broadly, what support, if any, you get from them and how things tie together in the council.

You mentioned that you have a climate and sustainability committee — I probably do not have the right name for it. Do you work with that, for example, on things such as extreme weather? Ample scientific advice is available to show that, if we do not deal with climate and the emissions that contribute to climate change, extreme weather conditions will worsen, not get better. That is the case for doing something on emissions. That is the first thing.

Then there is water quality and pollution. I will combine the two things, if I may. First, how are you working with other groups, within the council or externally, to tie those things together? My second question, on water quality, is more direct. I have previously mentioned an Oxford University report that, as far as I know, is based on four rivers in England. The levels of population, catchment areas and sewage treatment works on those rivers may be completely different from anything in Fermanagh or elsewhere in Northern Ireland, but Lough Neagh pollution figures show something very different. I am not saying that one contributor should be treated differently from another; we have to absolutely clear about that. The two bigger contributors to the Lough Neagh crisis should be dealt with in the same way as the smaller contributor that was identified: 12% associated with septic tanks. Do you, as a committee, believe that all polluters in every instance should be dealt with appropriately and prosecuted to deal, first, with the pollution and water quality issue and, also, with the climate issues and weather conditions?

Councillor McClaughry: We understand that there are different ways of doing things, but there are those who deliberately pollute and those who accidentally pollute. You need to look at how and why it happens on an individual basis. What is the point of fining somebody £50,000 or £100,000 and wanting them to do repairs when, instead, you could go in and say, "This is what you need to do to stop doing what you are doing. You have made a mistake. You have done something wrong. Fix it", and they would pay to fix it?

People are hiding things and have a massive fear of being caught. When it was first discovered that silage pits were not being properly sealed, they were fining the farmers. Farmers then had this fear and were hiding things. They were not seeking advice, did not want anybody on their land and did not want anybody to look at anything. We need them to say, "I have identified something. I think that something is wrong. I need help. I need somebody to come in, to tell me what I am doing wrong and what I need to do to repair it and to get me to do it". If you fine people, you immediately create a fear factor.

There was an incident beside me two years ago in which it was quite obvious that somebody had dumped something into a river and caused a fish kill. That is clearly criminal and should be dealt with as a crime. That is a massive crime, and it is still going on across our society. Stuff is going into rivers and into the ground that should not be. That is criminal and should be dealt with.

As a whole, we need strong education and a strong way of identifying problems and assisting people to repair and fix what needs to be fixed. If we make people criminal, that immediately puts up a block to people who, generally, think that they are doing the right thing but are doing the wrong thing. It is a balancing act. Where there is clear criminality, you have to deal with people as criminals, in my opinion.

Councillor Greene: To answer your question, I think that anyone who breaks the rules should be held accountable for that. There is any amount of regulation around where farmers spread slurry near waterways. All of that is already there. If any farmer does not know those rules, well, they should know them, because it is a requirement of your area-based payment that you know that.

When that study was done in England, the farmers there were blamed for the blue-green algae, but when the study was properly done by Oxford University, it found that, no, it was not actually the farmers who were the major polluters. I would love that study to be done in Lough Neagh and Lough Erne, because farmers always seem to be the easy target. Stormont oversees NIW, which is putting hundreds of thousands of tons of raw sewage into Lough Neagh and Lough Erne every year, and the same Departments are blaming the farmers while they let that happen under their stewardship. That is morally wrong, and that is why farmers are so frustrated.

Mr Blair: I have made it clear that I believe that polluters should be treated equally and dealt with in the same way. That has been my position since I have come to this place, and even before I came to this place.

Councillor Deehan: If I may come in, Mr Blair — with your permission, Chair — Fermanagh and Omagh District Council takes climate change and global warming extremely seriously, and there is cross-departmental working on virtually every aspect of our functions. Climate change underpins all of our plans. Our community plans, our local development plans and all those plans are firmly rooted in addressing climate change. We have been working, for example, on our buildings to try to make them more environmentally sustainable. We have retrofitting projects, including, for example, retrofitting of windows in The Grange building in Omagh. With new builds, we seek to construct to the highest level of building sustainability. In answer to your question, yes, we do take it extremely seriously, and we will do everything in our power to ensure that we meet our obligations and work positively towards net zero by 2050.

Mr Blair: Thank you. The question was about the committees working together, but you are clearly aware of what the climate group is doing. Thank you for that.

Councillor McGrath: I can come in there, John. Our council is working with a cross-border group called the Irish Central Border Area Network (ICBAN), which recently had a project called For the Love of Our Waters (FLOW). That project had funding of €5·2 million. That will allow 200 farmers to explore bioenergy benefits in managing excess phosphorus. There are 13 schools involved in biodiversity groups — revitalising the structure of the Erne Rivers Trust. Our council is working with ICBAN, and we have four councillors on that committee. There are other projects as well. There is the Green Accelerator Skills Programme (GRASP), and there are green energy projects. There will be a lot happening there, so there is a lot happening in the council.

Mr Blair: That is positive news.

My second question is about water but in a different way. The water is attractive for recreation, sport and all sorts of activities. Lough Erne is the most obvious example, but there are other waterways across the Fermanagh and Omagh area. I used to book stretches of the Erne for German and French tourists and others, and I enjoyed that very much. I noted your comments on the Fermanagh Classic and the history of that this year. We got all the emails, and I have to say that a very effective lobbying campaign was conducted there. Truly well done to all involved, because keeping that public angling estate — Lough Erne is part of it — in place is crucial to allow people to access outdoor activity, whether it is angling or other sorts of water recreation.

I know that this can be a challenge for councils across Northern Ireland, but I am keen to know this, if you can give any insight. I am mindful that part of your area — control of waters — is in DAERA's jurisdiction, and that part lies with the Loughs Agency. Can you give us a picture of how that fits together and of what assistance the Northern Ireland Tourist Board (NITB) gives to promote those waters, including the promotion of events such as the Fermanagh Classic but also in terms of health and well-being by helping to attract young people — although not just young people — to be outdoors, active and environmentally aware and to enjoy what is available on their doorstep?

Councillor McClaughry: Last year, as well as the Lough Erne Pike Classic, we had the World Championship Predator Lure fishing championship. That is a massive competition. A lot of people at that event, especially those from eastern European countries, were professional fishermen. The equipment that they brought over was extremely specialised: they catch the fish and release them back. Those people want to come back. They said that it was the best place to hold it. That is part of how we deal with it: word of mouth amongst the fishing community. They talk to each other. Ancillary to that is the fact that they came over for the two weeks preceding the week of the championship to practise fishing on Lough Erne, so they were there for three weeks, staying in local hotels, using restaurants, being in the community and engaging local people for their expertise on where to catch the large fish. I think that the largest predator fish in Lough Erne was 1·2 metres long, so, when you stick your foot in the water, remember that there are fish of that size in there.

The angling associations and people like that run classes. Two weeks ago, those associations had a fly fishing class at the Killyhevlin hotel, showing young people how to tie flies and getting them to engage with their groups. We are working with those groups. There is also a group, at Loughmacrory Lough, that is one of the leads for Northern Ireland fishing. Declan probably knows that area better. Those groups are out there and active. We are getting people involved, locally, but it is also about getting things back. When I was a youngster, I went to a school in Enniskillen that used to host the Northern Ireland Schools Championship in fishing. We regularly won the competition, as well; I think that is why we hosted it. That was a big thing back in the day, but those competitions have disappeared. It is about trying to get those back. If those were to start again, we would support them in order to get young people involved.

We now have two inland lifeboat stations, as well. Unbelievably, they are very active. We need to educate people going out onto our lakes to make them safer. As chair of the council, that is my charity of the year, and I have been working actively with it. In my past life as a police officer, unfortunately, I attended a few cold-water drowning incidents. I am using this forum, as well, to raise that matter. I feel strongly about that, and I know that the lifeboat charity does, as well. We recently made a video about that. It is very badly done, because I am in it, but it highlights the issue.

We are working with groups. We are a slow-burner: we do not want to be the next big thing, but we want to be the best at what we do.

Mr Blair: There are opportunities there for skills and learning, yes?

Councillor McClaughry: Yes, all that upskilling.

Mr Blair: Are you able to give us any insight into that point about tourism? As I said, I know that you fall partly in DAERA's area and partly in the Loughs Agency's area. Can you give us an idea of how that ties together with the promotion of your public angling estate and waterways in general and of any help that might be coming to you and any liaison that you have with the tourism agencies?

Councillor Deehan: I will come in, if I may, Chair. Thank you, again, Mr Blair. Recently, Fermanagh and Omagh District Council hosted a very successful tourism conference that focused on the theme of regenerative tourism. We recognise the central role that our lakes, rivers and waterways play in our tourism product, particularly in Fermanagh but also in Tyrone, with, for example, the Gortin lakes, Lough Macrory, Owenkillew river and the River Strule. To us, they are valuable assets, and we wish to protect them to make sure that we do not have problems with overgrowth of blue-green algae. We want to make that water of the highest quality so that people can use it safely. We think back, Mr Blair and Chair, to the Paris Olympics, when some of the water events had to be postponed because of the poor quality of the water. We know how vital it is that we protect our waterways.

Some of the tourism projects that were presented at our tourism conference utilised the waterway for water sports and so on. As a council, we know that, because we are rural, we have to take full advantage of our tourism project, so it is in our interest to protect our waterway. We recently met Northern Ireland Water to look at the issue of sewerage infrastructure, how it is limiting development and how discharges of untreated sewage into our watercourses can happen. That is a matter of huge concern to us, and we have been lobbying for it to be addressed in our council area.

Our tourism offering is of vital importance. We will do everything that we can to promote it and use it to best advantage; certainly, the protection of our waterways is a huge priority.

Mr Blair: Thank you.

Mr Irwin: Thank you very much for your presentation. We identify with many of your concerns, especially inheritance tax. That is probably one of the biggest issues in generations to face family farms; hopefully, pressure can be kept on the British Labour Government to back down on it. The A5 is another issue. It is absolutely scandalous that they can move in and fence off land, cutting down trees and removing hedges, without even putting a price on it for the farmer. I have written to the Minister about that. Another gentleman mentioned the Forest Service. I have the same issue, with fences down around Gosford Forest Park and damage to farmers' property. I rang on four occasions but have not had a satisfactory response.

I see that you have concerns about the suckler cow scheme. What is your main concern? Suckler cow numbers in Northern Ireland are down, and I would have thought that a scheme might help to sustain them.

Councillor Greene: In the Fermanagh and Omagh area, the problem that we have with the likes of the suckler cow scheme is that, in County Fermanagh, 92% of the land is deemed to be a less-favoured area. Anyone who keeps animals knows that, in a less-favoured area or a hill farm, you cannot keep a high density of cattle. Our fear is that money that is paid through a suckler cow scheme will end up being moved away from the area-based payment whereby farmers are paid based on their land. On hill farms, if you keep 20 cows, you probably need 100 acres, whereas, if you are in County Down or wherever, in the good land —.

Mr Irwin: I do not think that Fermanagh land is all bad [Laughter.]

Councillor Greene: Well, 92% of it is deemed to be a less-favoured area. If you are in County Down, 20 or 30 acres would keep 20 cows. Our fear is that the scheme will take money from the poorest areas and the poorest farmers and give it to the more intensive farmers in the good land.

I do not know where you are from, William, but it will probably suit an area where the land is fertile. That is our fear.

Mr Irwin: I declare an interest: I do not have suckler cows, but I am a partner in a couple of businesses; I am thinking of keeping some suckler cows. [Laughter.]

I would have thought that there are still quite a few suckler cows in Fermanagh, even in less-favoured areas. The statistics show that cow numbers in Northern Ireland are well down. I have thought for some time that something needs to be done to help. My personal view is that £100 per calf may help slightly but is not enough. Anyone who knows anything about farming can see that cattle are scarce. Animal numbers are down, and cattle will be even scarcer next year. That is an issue.

Mr T Buchanan: Thank you for coming to the Committee and making your presentations. As other members indicated, the Committee has been exercised about all these issues. Today, it is coming from your side as well as ours.

I want to touch on a couple of issues. To what extent does the council feel that it is hampered or hindered in reaching planning targets due to delays in getting responses back from the NIEA on ammonia levels or other issues that the planning authorities ask the NIEA to report on? How do those delays and blockages in the system hinder the council in meeting its targets on issuing planning determinations?

Councillor Greene: I heard today about a case of a young fella who wants to come home and change the farm from beef to dairy. He wants to build a parlour and sheds for that. However, the NIEA says that, if he does that, he will double the farm's ammonia emissions. He would not double his ammonia emissions; he would replace one type of farm with another, so there would be a net zero impact. The NIEA cannot get its head around that; it is saying that he would double his ammonia output, which he clearly would not. I find the NIEA to be a problem. This is just my opinion, but I wonder whether there is anyone in the NIEA who is from a farming background. Planning is in gridlock. I do not know of any farm sheds with a tank or anything belonging to them that have been passed in the past two years. Off the top of my head, I genuinely do not know of any that have been passed. Planning is almost at a standstill.

As I said, they want us, perhaps, to operate as a national park or a museum where people come in, look at us and say, "God, that's the way it used to be". That is not going to encourage any young fella to come into farming. To answer your question, no development has been passed that I know of.

Mr T Buchanan: The gist of my question was whether the council feels that there is a backlog of planning application determinations because of a lack of responses from the NIEA.

Councillor Greene: There absolutely is; yes.

Councillor McClaughry: There are three of us here who sit on the planning committee. I came on to the council in 2019. There are cases from that time that still have not been cleared up and are still waiting on the NIEA to respond, because there is a bog close by or something else. The NIEA does not seem to be able to make a decision on what should go ahead. That is stalling farmers. Some of them are trying to replace buildings that were built in the 60s and 70s. Other farmers, like the one who Sheamus mentioned, have reached an age where their son or daughter wants to come home and farm, and they want to change the type of the business. However, the NIEA does not seem to understand that, if you take a beef animal out of the field, you will put a dairy one in — you are not going to put them both in the same field because you only have a limited amount of grass for them to eat. We are growing grass to feed animals to produce either dairy product or beef; you cannot do both. You can do either or half and half. The NIEA does not seem to be able to get its head around that, Tom. Anything that we have passed has been for general purpose machinery sheds or change of use.

Mr T Buchanan: No doubt, the Department is listening to this Committee session. It is important to hear from the council about the problems that it is facing with backlogs in planning and not making determinations simply because it cannot get responses from the NIEA. No doubt, that will be picked up by the Department today.

As has been mentioned, the A5 will run not only from one side of west Tyrone to the other but through the middle of the council area on the Omagh side. Has your committee carried out any assessment as to the impact that that loss of land is having on the farming community and on future sustainability of the industry in that area? Has there been any work done on that issue?

Councillor Greene: I will answer that, because everyone else has spoken on the A5. As a council, we are in favour of the A5 being built. The number of deaths on that road is unbelievable, so something has to be done. The A5 has been talked about for maybe 25 years. You would think that it is the only motorway that will ever be built. If you go all over the island of Ireland, you will see motorways that have been built and improvements that have been made without such delay. Obviously, those motorways went through farmers' land. From a councillor's point of view, I cannot understand why this motorway seems to have got bogged down in issues when other ones, that were mentioned later, have been built. With the others, life has gone on: farmers got paid for their land, and it seemed to sort itself out. I do not know the nitty-gritty issues. Farmers have to be paid fairly for their land. If we are going to save hundreds of lives, it has to be done, but it has to be done in a fair way for everyone. This will not be the first motorway to be built on the island of Ireland, but you would think that it is a new thing that we are doing.

Mr T Buchanan: With all due respect, we are not questioning the building of the A5. That was not the question. The question was this: has the council's agriculture committee carried out an assessment of, or done any work on, the impact on farm businesses and on the future sustainability of farming in that area of having roadways running through the middle of the old Omagh council area, as we would have known it? Let us make it clear that that is in no way questioning the development of the A5.

Councillor McGrath: We have councillors who sit on the A5/N2 cross-border committee. We meet various groups all the time. We meet Roads Service, and we have met the families of people who lost their life on the road. We meet monthly, and we work with other councils and other jurisdictions on various things. There is a lot happening — maybe not as much in the agriculture group, but things are happening with the A5/N2 committee.

Mr T Buchanan: The council's agriculture group could consider doing an assessment of the future of farming sustainability as a result of the A5 upgrade.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Folks, thank you for that. I will have to conclude with Robbie.

Mr Butler: Thank you, Mr stand-in Chairman. I am not going to ask any questions, because we have run out of time. I am sorry about that, because I had quite a bit to ask. What I will say is that the Committee was looking forward to your coming up here. I can say, genuinely, that you would have lots of friends on the Committee who speak, almost weekly, to the very pressures that you have discussed. As recently as last week, at the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI), we learnt about multi-species sward and discussed the difference in the climate. For instance, Fermanagh is about three times wetter than Strangford. That was covered last week, because AFBI is looking at the different swards in areas like that.

Thank you for a fantastic presentation and for giving it to us in advance. I hope that you enjoyed your time here. I encourage you to keep in contact with us. It has been very useful.

I will make a final point that is not meant to be flippant in any way. I was working in the Fire Service when I had my first chance to work with individuals from your council area: Omagh, "Skin Town", Lisnaskea or wherever. They worked with us up in Belfast. You are hiding your light under a bushel as regards the type of people who live in that area. It is probably one of the areas in Northern Ireland with the most unexploited potential, not just in regard to agriculture, although that is obviously a big part. What you have learnt in agriculture, what you do, how you communicate and how you do business is exemplary. I am not just talking about the council; I am talking about the people from the area. The Committee will remain open to communications from you guys. We are very much pitching in the same direction on most of the topics. Thank you so much. We will see you at the show.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): I just checked our notes. An environmental report on the ammonia strategy is out for consultation. It closes in May. Hopefully, after all that, we will get a better way forward on an ammonia strategy. Forest Service is on our list of potential visits, so I can assure you that the relevant issues will be raised then.

I want to reiterate what Robbie said. I know that you made a big trek to get up here today. The Department is listening; we are still listening; we will make representations on the issues that you have raised. It is always great to see people up from home. I thank the witnesses as well as councillors Stephen Donnelly, Sinead, Ciarán and Alison and all the officials who came up. I hope you have a safe trip home.

Councillor Rainey: Robbie, Deputy Chair Declan and the rest of the Committee, thank you again for having us.

A few councillors went to the Netherlands a fortnight ago to see how to deal with ammonia. Two simple things can be done. You can dilute the slurry. That will help to reduce the ammonia results. However, if you do that, you need holding facilities for it. Then, when you go to spread it, you need land to deal with all the extra water that you have added. There is a solution. Lely, which is notorious for producing such robots, has developed a machine that works on solid floors. It goes round, sucks up the urine from the solids and deposits that into a separate tank. That can be used for fertiliser. Then, they come along with the scraper and scrape the dung from the passage into what you and I know as the "doughal". [Laughter.]

Mr Butler: That word has not made it out of Fermanagh and Omagh. To be fair, Allan, that is new to me.

Councillor Rainey: Is that taking a step back in time? That is how you are expected to deal with it; that is the reality.

Councillor McGrath: That is the future.

Councillor Rainey: On behalf of the members of Fermanagh and Omagh District Council agricultural liaison group, I thank Robbie, Declan and your colleagues for facilitating today's meeting and listening to our presentation. We request that the Committee reports back to the council in due course on the issues that we have raised. We extend an invitation to any Committee members who would care to visit us in the Fermanagh and Omagh district. You will be very welcome. Declan, Tom and maybe some of the rest of you know where I am talking about.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McAleer): Thanks very much. You are great ambassadors for our district. We will consider that for our forward work programme. We will make representations on all the issues that have been raised today, including to the Forest Service, and feed back to you.