Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome Minister Muir and Mrs Katrina Godfrey, the permanent secretary in the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs (DAERA), to the meeting. I understand that we do not have a long session with you; that is why I have been reading really fast [Laughter.]

I hope that you will return before the summer recess, if we can find the time. I invite you to brief the Committee.

Mr Muir (The Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you very much, Chair. It is good to be here with you, the Deputy Chair and Committee members. I value the role of the Committee, and I am thankful to have the opportunity to present DAERA's corporate plan for 2025-27 to you today. I am joined by my permanent secretary, Katrina Godfrey, whom I am fortunate to work with. I thank the Committee for the feedback that it provided to my Department on the development of policy and for its role in the initiation of legislation, including on XL bully dogs, on the setting of the climate change carbon budgets from 2023 to 2037 and on the climate change 2040 emissions target. I value the Committee's input, which has assisted us in progressing actions to address some of the key challenges that my Department faces. I am also keen to work with you to progress the Agriculture Bill as quickly as possible.

On the matter of the Agriculture Bill, before I move on, I say that I understand that, despite confirmation that the fruit and vegetables aid scheme (FVAS) is to continue to the end of this year, members still have some concerns. I take the opportunity to reiterate that producer organisations (POs) with a head office in Northern Ireland can submit an operational programme for approval later this year. As set out in the current legislation, that will be a three-year programme. I see the scheme running until there is a suitable replacement, which may be an incremental process with some improvements to the existing scheme to reflect stakeholder feedback. If the Bill is enacted in time to provide the powers to do so, I hope that that will provide some further reassurance to the Committee.

I turn to my corporate plan, which is built around the Programme for Government, the UN sustainable development goals, established programmes such as the sustainable agriculture programme and the priorities that I have previously set out to the Committee. The plan provides an insight into the work that DAERA, its agencies and non-departmental bodies will deliver for the remainder of the Executive mandate to 2027. It sets out how the Department aims to make a positive difference to people and their well-being and how we will work towards the shared goals of tackling climate change together, protecting and improving our environment, supporting the agri-food and fishing sectors, safeguarding animal health and welfare and plant health, building our rural communities and investing in science and research and development capacity. It also reflects the work that will be needed to discharge the Department's obligations, including those as the competent authority in relation to the Windsor framework.

The plan is built around my eight key priorities and contains 10 specific pledges. Progress across all of those areas will require us to work collaboratively across the Department and with other Departments, the Committee and external partners and stakeholders. I cannot achieve my priorities and pledges alone, and I will need support from everyone, including the members of the Committee. I emphasise my commitment to the farming community at this time of considerable change, and that is at the core of the corporate plan. I believe wholeheartedly in the potential of our agriculture sector, and I am determined to support our farmers as they continue to produce healthy and nutritious food whilst improving the environment and tackling climate change. I want to ensure sustainable productivity and to assist in the development of effective, functioning supply chains in our agri-food and fishing sectors. I want to ensure food security and high standards of disease control and public and animal health.

In order to complement my corporate plan, I have set out my Department's vision, which is to deliver a net zero, nature-positive future and to support sustainable agriculture and thriving rural communities. That succinctly reflects my Department's full remit and clearly articulates what my pledges and commitments are designed to deliver. The plan will act as a guide for staff, arm's-length bodies (ALBs), our stakeholders and people who live and work in Northern Ireland to see the direction of travel over the medium term. It will be supported by annual business plans and measures from my Department that will contain more detail on the actions that will help us to achieve our priorities and pledges.

The Committee will note that, while officials have assessed those priorities and pledges as deliverable within the time frame, some require Executive agreement, which may impact on deliverability. I also highlight the fact that my Department continues to face a constrained resourcing position. On resource departmental expenditure limit (DEL), my assessment is that, whilst I welcome the Executive's earmarking of £332·5 million for agriculture, agrienvironment, fisheries and rural development that was previously received as part of Westminster earmarked funds, I am disappointed that an inflationary uplift of that funding has not been possible, given the wider pressures that the Executive face.

The agreed general allocation of £19 million to my Department will cover some but not all of DAERA's significant statutory obligations on bovine TB compensation and contractual pressures on pay, employers' National Insurance and running costs. That is an extremely difficult outcome for DAERA, and further work will be required as part of the imminent June monitoring round to determine the extent of those pressures across the Department. My Department's finance director will brief you on those matters in due course. However, I welcome the £5 million indicative Executive earmarked resource DEL allocation at June monitoring to my Department for Lough Neagh. That aligns with the "Protecting Lough Neagh and the Environment" priority in the Programme for Government (PFG), and it will help my Department to take forward further work on the Lough Neagh action plan in 2025-26.

On capital DEL, I welcome the Executive earmarked allocation of £12·3 million for the just transition fund for agriculture. However, as the £119·5 million total capital DEL allocation is £7·1 million less than my Department's inescapable bids, I have agreed to make an opening overcommitment of £15 million to take forward all of DAERA's inescapable and high-priority bids. That is on the basis that there will be some in-year slippage as well as opportunities to secure additional money during monitoring rounds.

In summary, whilst the earmarking of budgets and additional allocations are welcome and will help my Department to progress the corporate plan for 2025-26 and beyond, they do not address the significant pressures that face DAERA. I will, therefore, make bids for additional funding at monitoring rounds this year.

The filling in of vacancies remains a key issue for my Department. I thank the Department of Finance for its assistance on that. In conjunction with the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) HR, a number of competitions are ongoing at the development stage to address the resource picture.

Despite those resource pressures, we are committed to achieving the eight priorities and 10 pledges set out in the plan within the mandate of the Executive, and I believe that, with us all working together, we can create a better future for us all, and that is, indeed, possible. I trust that the plan will be helpful in informing the Committee's forward work programme, and I look forward to taking questions that you may have now that you have had time to consider it.

In closing, I record my thanks in relation to the scenes that we have been witnessing in recent days across Northern Ireland. I thank the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service (NIFRS), the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), my officials in the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) and the many groups that have been assisting on that. The scenes that have occurred across Northern Ireland are really concerning. There is a devastating impact on our environment and a risk to lives and livelihoods at people's homes and farms. I reiterate the message that I gave on Monday for people to stop lighting fires on our mountains. It is absolutely key that there is an individual responsibility around this. If anyone is aware of anyone who is deliberately and maliciously lighting fires, they should report that to the police or Crimestoppers. I call it for what it is: it is rural arson, and it needs to stop.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I echo that call. Thank you, Minister, for mentioning that.

Minister, to be clear for members, you have limited time with the Committee. What time do you need be away?

Mr Muir: I need to be away for 11.00 am. Is that OK?

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Yes, 11.00 am is absolutely fine. Members, in that regard, please keep your questions as succinct as possible so that we all get a fair chance at this.

Minister, I will start with that last point. It was not going to be my first question, but I know from my previous work that work had started around 2011, when there was a major incident in the Mournes. The only major events that seem to be triggered now in Northern Ireland are gorse fires and wildfires. That is the significance of them, and there have been big losses in the past. An intergovernmental plan had been established to develop a plan or a strategy. What stage are we at with that? I would have imagined that it would be complete by now.

Mr Muir: There has been a lot of inter-agency working, and I dread to think what the scenes would have been like without that. I met officials in November last year and was briefed on the work that is undertaken not just by my Department but by the Fire and Rescue Service, the police and non-governmental organisations around Northern Ireland. The issue goes beyond the Mournes, and we have seen the scenes across Northern Ireland. There has been a lot of inter-agency working, and my Department has played a role in the upgrading of vehicles that the Fire and Rescue Service can then use in response. That is ongoing, and it is really important to put that in place. We went out to tender for a number of fire-management plans in January, and we got no responses to that. That, to me, reflects the fact that this is an issue beyond just Northern Ireland. People who have the expertise on this are in high demand. We have seen scenes in recent days in Donegal and in Galloway in Scotland. We will consider the way forward for how we will re-tender for that.

For medium- and long-term interventions around this, we need a wider strategy. I have been engaging with officials again this week, and we will seek to finalise that and bring it to the Executive in the time ahead. The immediacy of this is that people need to have responsibility in how they engage in their activities in the countryside, because, as the Fire and Rescue Service has been reporting, the majority of those fires are being started deliberately. This is preventable, and I worry that people are not fully grasping the risk to people's lives because of this. The impact on the rural environment is catastrophic. Previous reports showed the impact on NI Water through the significant additional costs that it is having to put in place for the treatment of water. The environment is being destroyed. This is spring: we are meant to see nature come alive, not to see it destroyed.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Absolutely. The wildfire season used to last for about two months, but it has now spread throughout almost the whole year, which is sad.

Has anything been identified to explain why there were no successful applicants to take up the contract for the plan? Is there a blockage?

Mr Muir: A number of people showed an interest in it. We are reaching out to them to see why they did not reply to it. One of the issues might have been that we were looking for quite a large contract. Maybe we should break that down into smaller areas to see whether people are interested in taking those forward. It is a specialised area. Trying to get people to take that forward can be a challenge.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I misspoke in the Chamber the other day and misquoted NI Water. I said that I thought that the bill was around £800,000; I think that it was £250,000 for NI Water in 2011. However, Forest Service indicated that its potential loss was around £990,000 in 2011. Look at the environmental cost, the danger and the fiscal cost. That was a single event. It is significant.

Mr Muir: There is significant cost in repairing the damage to our environment and for NI Water, but what is irreplaceable is people's lives. Will it take someone to be killed in those fires for us to face up to some of the difficult issues around responsible behaviour in our countryside?

I am in awe of the work that the Fire and Rescue Service is doing. It is really hard work. It is highly manual work in difficult and challenging circumstances. I thank it for that. I have an excellent working relationship with the Health Minister. We have been speaking regularly on the issue. We hope that, once the situation abates and we are not taking resources away from the Fire and Rescue Service in doing so, Mike and I will engage with it.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I appreciate that. At one point in 2011, every resource that it had was being utilised, which meant that everybody else was at risk.

Mr Muir: There were fire officers in the Mournes this week from Cookstown.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you so much for that.

The plan highlights support for rural communities by working in partnership with other Departments to address wider socio-economic rural issues and achieve improved outcomes for rural communities. That work will include the delivery of a new rural policy framework. The Committee is concerned that rural development will end up falling between too many stools. What are you doing to ensure that that does not happen in the life of the plan?

Mr Muir: I am ensuring that it is being given a really good place in the Department and more broadly across government. The purpose of our new policy is to ensure that rural development will be a cross-departmental responsibility. Whilst I will take the lead on it — I am proud to be able to say that I am Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs — we have to have a whole-of-government approach. That is why, over the year ahead, we will adopt a co-design process for that policy. Last year, we set up a unit focused on that issue. I am passionately committed to it. I have been engaging with stakeholders on a co-design process around it. It is really key that we take that forward. A lot of good work is being done for rural communities, but we need to give it a stronger focus in government. That is the purpose of the policy.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Brilliant.

I was not going to ask you my final question, but you mentioned in your brief the pressures around money. We know that a shortfall is already anticipated for the compensation for TB. The price of compensation at the moment is adding to that problem. Will you give us an update on the eradication strategy? Is it likely to be available fairly soon, so that we can look at it and then help you to mobilise it?

Mr Muir: The importance of tackling TB is reflected in the fact that it is one of the 10 pledges in the corporate plan. It is a key issue for me for two reasons. The first is the impact on our farming community and the mental impact that it has on farmers. When I meet them, I see the anguish on their faces. We need to find a way through that. The second is the significant impact that it is having on departmental finances. I am grateful for the good working relationship that I have with the Finance Minister. The issue was in the Budget for this financial year, and it was in the draft Budget as well. Priority will be given in monitoring rounds for bids associated with compensation. It is important that we have assurance in that regard. I will bid so that we can fulfil those costs. Obviously, those are rising costs. That is not lost on me or Katrina, as chief accounting officer.

It is key that we work together to drive down TB. I was fortunate enough to meet the stakeholder group yesterday. I think that it has met 11 times since January. I thank everyone who has stepped forward and been part of that. I am really thankful for that. I also thank the officials who have facilitated that and the Chief Veterinary Officer and many other officials from my Department for their participation. I signed off the foreword of the new blueprint for bovine TB last night. We hope to get that agreed in the short time ahead. That is a good example of where we can work together. We may not always agree in life, but the best thing that we can do is to discuss our issues respectfully and try to come to a position where we can move forward, and I think that we are moving towards that position.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): The number in my head is that it was anticipated to be around £60 million this year. Are we in danger of it being more than that? When we look at the strategy and what we hope to achieve, we will hopefully see significant reductions in that in years to come.

Mrs Katrina Godfrey (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): That is the figure on the current estimate, Chair. Not all of that is compensation, obviously. Our real focus is on the investment and as much investment as we can make to get ahead of the disease, rather than being in the invidious position where we pay what money we have at the back end in compensation. From a disease prevention perspective, that is frustrating for all of us.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): It is seen as a failure, I imagine, when we do that.

Mrs Godfrey: It is hugely frustrating. It is money that, because you have to spend it on compensation, you do not have at the front end for prevention, as with our public health model. That is the focus. My interest and that of the Minister is to get as much as possible spent on prevention so that we can reduce not just the compensation bill, which is of interest to me from a budgetary perspective, but, as the Minister said, the anguish and stress for farm families.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you. I have abused my position as Chair in asking questions. Members, I have the names of eight members who wish to ask questions. That is roughly four minutes each, if you do not mind my doing it that way. I do not want to hold the Minister back for any longer than necessary. He has indicated that he needs to be away at 11.00 am. If we can stick to that, I would really appreciate it.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Katrina and Minister. I do not want to ask a question about bovine TB; I want to reiterate what Robbie said: it is absolutely devastating for farming communities. Our rate is twice that of the South of Ireland, even though we are the same epidemiological island. I know that your group was to report last month. I presume that that has slipped just a couple of weeks and that we will see that blueprint very soon.

I do not see in the corporate plan any mention of or progress on a sheep scheme. We know that the sheep sector needs support. Sheep farmers have had their single farm payment cut this year to fund other schemes, such as the beef scheme, which they cannot apply to. Are there plans in place to move forward with a sheep support scheme?

Mr Muir: Thank you, Declan. On the point about TB, it is important to say that we had a real goal to get the blueprint over the line by 31 March. It is most important that we do it together. That is why I gave a little more space for the stakeholder group to come to a position where it felt comfortable to support the blueprint. That was the meeting that I had with it yesterday, and I think that we are nearly there. That is great progress, and I honestly thank everyone who was a part of that. We are nearly there. As I said, I signed off the foreword last night.

I have had lots of representations on the sheep support scheme, and I have already outlined that I am committed to bringing that forward. Previously, it was not a ministerial priority; it is a priority for me. In the Department, we have resource pressures. They are real, and we cannot do everything at once. We have to prioritise, and that is the job for government and the Minister. We are rolling out the Farming with Nature scheme, which will start this year. Significant resource is going into that, because, essentially, after leaving the European Union, we are having to develop all the new schemes from scratch. It is resource-intensive, and my colleagues in England and Wales would echo that. Once we are able to get progress on that, we will get the resource moving on to deliver on a sheep support scheme, and I am keen to do that. There are good, strong advocates for that, and I understand the representations for it and the benefits that can come out of it, particularly on disease prevention.

You have an assurance that, once we are able to make progress on Farming with Nature, we will move on to the sheep support scheme. I do not want to say that we can do both at once, because we do not have infinite resources. There is a lot that we have to do on business cases and so on to do things correctly. There are some lessons to be learned generally from previous schemes that were rolled out on farm support, and we do not want to repeat those mistakes.

Mrs Godfrey: Particularly in the current financial climate and with what we hear about the spending review period, the Minister is absolutely right to make sure that, when we move to new schemes, we have an absolutely clear-eyed view of the value for money, the impact and the improvement.

Mr McAleer: I have a supplementary question that is probably a glass half-full. You said that you are dealing with Farming with Nature and then the sheep support scheme. From a glass half-full perspective, there will be a sheep support scheme.

Mr Muir: I want to see a sheep support scheme progressed in my time as Minister. Obviously, developing such schemes is not easy; it is complex, but we want to progress that. One of the first issues is that we want to do it through a process of co-design, because we want to make sure that whatever we roll out has buy-in. I am unable to give you exact timescales, because I do not want to give something that we cannot deliver. Officials are working really hard at the schemes and putting their time into doing that. I hear those representations: everywhere I go, I hear them. We are coming up to the agricultural show season, and I will hear it clearly. I am committed to bringing it forward.

Mr McAleer: Briefly, you expect Farming with Nature to open later this year: is that right, Minister?

Mr Muir: Yes.

Mr McAleer: I appreciate that it is difficult to align things. However, it would probably have been helpful had it opened at the same time as the single farm payment application window. Farmers are working on their applications. It would have been easier for them had that option been there now, as opposed to them having to wait until the end of the year.

Mr Muir: There are lots of things that we could have done and could do differently. Had I been in office two years earlier, I could have got an awful lot progressed. A lot of catch-up is being done because we did not have a sitting Assembly and Executive. I am doing all that I can to turn it round. We need to invest in agrienvironment support schemes, because that is a win-win situation: delivering that as an enterprise on the farm and for farmers as well as for the environment. Farmers are the custodians of our countryside, but we need to give them the tools so that they can continue that job.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Minister.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, Declan. That was pretty close to time. Excellent; well done.

Mr McAleer: It was not far out.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Tom, see if you can be as accurate as Declan in your four minutes.

Mr T Buchanan: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming to the Committee. I am conscious of the time, so I will be fairly brief.

One of the 10 pledges is on TB, which has already been mentioned. Are you confident that what you plan to bring forward will be effective in "reducing and then eradicating" TB, without being perhaps a little more focused on hotspot areas and doing a bit more work there? When will we see the effectiveness of the policy that you plan to bring forward?

Mr Muir: Brian Dooher completed his report at the end of November, and the stakeholder group has been working through that. It has been pulling together a blueprint for going forward. I read the latest draft of that last night, and it shows a credible pathway for reducing the incidence of TB. However, we have to do that work in a holistic fashion. We have to focus on the three pillars, which are people, cattle and wildlife. I am clear that there has to be that holistic approach. Fundamentally, the Department on its own will not get us on the road to eradication. We have to do it together, and that is why having people in the room has been absolutely key to the whole model that has been put together. People have engaged on that at 11 consecutive meetings since January, and that gives me a lot of confidence that people collectively have the will to deal with it.

Mr T Buchanan: Bringing forward policies and making plans is all very well, but when will we begin to see the effectiveness of that on the ground? TB is on the increase. Reducing it is not enough: we need to do as much as we can to eradicate it as far as possible. We have been working at that for years. What will be different this time? When will we see its effectiveness on the ground?

Mr Muir: This is a key issue for our farmers: I get that. There are short-, medium- and long-term actions that can be taken. Let us also be clear that, as we start to take action on this, we will see a higher incidence of TB, because we will do more testing for it. In the budget for this year, we have put aside money for more testing. We will have that pressure coming through, but that is so that we can get through this tunnel and get through it.

Do you want to say a bit more about that, Katrina?

Mrs Godfrey: I will pick up on Tom's point. The focus has to be on the evidence that shows the downturn, and that will start, as you said, Minister, inevitably, with an uptick, because the more you test, the more you will find. That is important, because we will not be able to eradicate it unless we know what we have and where it is.

The stakeholders have been as committed to that as we have. The journey is about needing to drive that down, and we need to do that in a way that is based on science and evidence.

Mr T Buchanan: Ammonia levels are another big issue for the farming community. Do you agree that a different policy is perhaps required for farmers who want to replace their old buildings with new ones and that, by doing that, they can demonstrate that they can reduce the ammonia levels that they produce at the minute by maybe 80% or 90% they still cannot meet the target set by the NIEA? Would that not be a much more sensible way to move forward? They have their new buildings, their ammonia levels are reduced significantly, but they are still not meeting NIEA's targets. If there is no change there, they will continue as they are, and the ammonia levels will not reduce.

Mr Muir: Alongside TB, ammonia is the other big issue in the farming community. My Department is consulting on not just the strategic environmental assessment (SEA) on the ammonia strategy and operational protocol but the strategy and operational protocol. We welcome views on those, and we will look at how we progress once we have considered the feedback. The Office for Environmental Protection (OPE) issued a report last September, and I recommend that everyone consider that, because it outlines how we in the Department operate within the law.

We need to find a way to reduce TB levels while delivering for our farming community. The consultation is out, and people can submit responses to it. The Department is looking at a capital support scheme, which will be for the next financial year, because it takes time to scope. That would incentivise technologies that can reduce ammonia emissions. I am sorry to use acronyms, but there is also an opportunity for SNAPs — site nitrogen action plans — where people come together to reduce background levels. We have also been considering those with regard to the roll-out of that scheme. I met officials again this week to discuss available technologies and how other parts of Europe are tackling ammonia levels, and I asked for more information. Ammonia is a key issue. We are in the consultation period and are asking for feedback, which we will consider.

Mr T Buchanan: Chair, I am conscious of the time, but I have one more question. I do not want to waste time. [Laughter.]

Thank you.

Minister, farmers along the A5 have lost their land through vesting. They have got no notification yet about the amount that they will be paid for the land or when they will get paid. That land cannot be used for the single farm payment this year, so they are in for a double whammy, in a sense. What can you offer those farmers? They have lost land; it is as if it has been stolen from them. It was vested last November, has been fenced off and work is ongoing. However, they have no idea how much they are getting for their land or when they will get it, and they are out of pocket. They are then hit with the fact that that land cannot be used for the single farm payment. What can you offer to the farmers along the A5?

Mr Muir: I get the concern about that. That vesting process does not sit in my Department, so it is not in my vires. I am sorry, but that is the position that we are in.

Mr T Buchanan: Sorry, Minister, but there are three Ministers who have their hand in the pie: the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister for Infrastructure and the Minister of Finance. Their hands are in the same pie. Are those three Ministers even working together to see what can be offered to those farmers?

Mr Muir: I will informally raise it with my ministerial counterparts, but, ultimately, the vesting process sits with them.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): We are having a concurrent meeting with the Committee for Infrastructure, hopefully, between Easter and the summer, so we will feed in quite heavily to that.

Thank you, Tom. You used up three minutes of William's time. I am only joking, William. [Laughter.]

Mr Irwin: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I am not always a nice guy, you know. Go ahead, William.

Mr Irwin: I thank the Minister for coming today. The Department has requested amendments to a number of tier 2 applications. There is full planning permission, but it requested amendments for the payment of a substantial grant. Will the Minister consider prioritising those planning applications so that that funding can be released?

Mr Muir: There are two things. First of all, I am happy to stay for an extra three minutes, because I want to see how much time William takes up and to ensure harmony on the Committee. If you send the details through to us, we could look at that. We would need to understand the specific details of it before we could give you a definitive response. Is that fair enough, Katrina?

Mrs Godfrey: Yes. Generally speaking — it is the same for most statutory consultees — it is a difficult position when you start to prioritise planning applications, because everybody's planning application matters.

Mr Irwin: Those people have full planning permission. The Department requested amendments to that planning application even though they were up and running. It requested the amendments before paying the tier 2 grant.

Mr Muir: We would need to look at that, William.

Mrs Godfrey: We would need to look at the detail.

Mr Irwin: I will forward that to you.

Mr Muir: If you send it through today, we will look at it.

Mr Irwin: Does the Minister agree that it is not within the jurisdiction of authorities in Northern Ireland to assess the land-spreading impact of organic manures on designated sites in the Republic of Ireland that are more than 7·5 kilometres from the border?

Mr Muir: I am aware of that issue. Officials have agreed to engage with the Shared Environmental Service (SES) to clarify the matter. I understand that there was a meeting recently on that.

Mr Irwin: That is right.

Mr Muir: I understand the complexity of the matter. Officials will engage with the SES on that.

Mr Irwin: It does not seem rational.

Mrs Godfrey: I think that the issue is about understanding how the SES interprets the operational protocol as it relates to transboundary issues. That is at the heart of it. I know that NIEA colleagues are in touch with the SES to work out why it thinks what it thinks and to ensure that it has the right information.

Mr Irwin: Hopefully, that can be resolved.

Mrs Godfrey: Hopefully so.

Mr Irwin: OK. Thank you very much.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, William. You get the gold star for your performance today. I appreciate it.

Mr Irwin: I might come in later. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I think that he is saving it up for the next session. I would be worried.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you for your presentation this morning, Minister. My questions have probably been fairly well covered by my colleagues.

In November, we heard from you on the Chief Veterinary Officer's report. At that stage, we talked about the lack of content about wildlife in it. I appreciate that you said at that stage, as you have said today, that you have to take a holistic approach to tackling TB. However, I am concerned that, if we are to tackle wildlife, it will require considerable time, because legislation will be required. You talked about a parallel process. I suppose that I had anticipated seeing something on wildlife, perhaps even before the current group had concluded its deliberations on the Chief Veterinary Officer's report. If we are to look at this in a holistic and balanced way, we also need to see what the intervention on wildlife will be. Can you give us an update on that? I am mindful of the fact that I asked you the question and that you responded earlier in the week saying that we may not see anything until at least the summer.

Mr Muir: I am clear that there has to be a holistic strategy. We have to deal with three pillars — I reiterate that — because it is the only way through it. On wildlife, I am conscious of the outcome of the judicial review and of the fact that we must proceed carefully and ensure that we do it correctly. When the blueprint comes out, it will set out how we plan to proceed on that. I need to put on record my firm belief that the Department must put science and evidence at its core. If that science and evidence mean that we have to take tough decisions, I will not be found wanting. We cannot pick and mix our science and evidence. We have to be honest about how we deal with the matter. I will not shirk difficult decisions on that, nor will I show disregard for the stakeholder group and how it is working collaboratively on it, because it is showing that it is making good progress.

Miss McIlveen: OK. I appreciate that. We are in a situation where there is pain on one side. We appreciate that there will be challenges for the farming community with some of the recommendations that are coming forward without the issue of wildlife being addressed as well.

Mr Muir: Lots of difficult decisions need to be taken on TB. I recognise that some of them will be in the farming community. I will not shirk taking difficult decisions and prioritising resources, which we have already done in the budget for this year, because we need to find a way forward on this.

The situation is not financially sustainable for the farming community, agri-food or my Department. I cannot go to the Finance Minister in the next financial year and say that levels will continue to go up and we do not have a plan to get them down. Therefore, we need to find a way forward.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you. I am conscious of time, but I want to speak on one other area, which is waste. Minister, when are you planning to announce the outcome of the 'Rethinking our Resources: Measures for Climate Action and a Circular Economy in NI' consultation? What advice will you give to councils that are not moving in any direction and are holding back, perhaps even within this rate year, on making any changes to how they collect waste? Finally, do you intend to give any indication of the direction of travel about either co-mingling or separation?

Mr Muir: That is a good question. I would prefer not to use the word "imminent" in answer to it. I want to give that clarity, but I do not want to say any more, because there are processes to follow. However, we want to be able to proceed with it very soon.

Miss McIlveen: What advice can you give to councils in the meantime? We know that sometimes "very soon" is not as quickly as we think or hope.

Mr Muir: "Soon" is very soon.

Mrs Godfrey: It is, quite honestly. Under the new rules, as an accounting officer, I have to approve all the Executive papers provided to the Minister. I have just been working through that one, so that is how I know that it is about to go to the Minister. I have just one or two queries to resolve, and then it will be on his desk.

Mr Muir: I will turn it around pretty quickly.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): My ears always prick up when Michelle, who is a former Minister, asks "What do you mean by 'soon'?" [Laughter.]

I have a feeling that Michelle, as a former Minister, might have used those words herself [Laughter.]

She knows exactly what you are at.

Miss McIlveen: I could not possibly comment

Mr Blair: I want to say quickly that I support what was asked in the previous question about getting some progress on the recycling of waste as soon as we can, whatever "soon" means.

It is good to see the Minister and the permanent secretary here today. I want to talk about the environment for a moment and then move back to farming in a second. The very recent OEP report highlighted previous underinvestment in and neglect of protected sites. Those are historical, Minister, so they are not your responsibility. You have said publicly that you will give it full and prompt consideration, and I do not doubt for a moment that you will. It is regrettable that the Ulster Farmers' Union (UFU), for example, has been pretty negative about the report, which is fundamental to the protection of our environment. Does that present massive problems, or is there a way around it?

Mr Muir: The report from the Office for Environmental Protection on our protected sites was difficult reading for me, but I welcome its constructive proposals. I will work swiftly with officials to respond to its findings and recommendations. Protected sites in Northern Ireland are jewels in our crown. We should value them. I find the recent comments from the Ulster Farmers' Union quite bizarre, frankly. We should protect those sites, and I would like to see more of that, not less. As we go forward with Farming with Nature, we will seek to provide additional tools to allow better upland management. We want to do that so that we can put those places into a better ecological state, because that is what we should do. It saddens me that people would view it otherwise.

Mr Blair: OK. Thank you. My next question is on the prospect of a UK/EU sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) veterinary agreement. I would be grateful for your feedback on that, Minister, but I hope that such an agreement would ensure that farmers in Northern Ireland are not undercut by a potential US/UK trade deal. Can you give us any feedback on the prospect of that UK/EU framework coming forward?

Mr Muir: Yes. I have written to the UK Government about any potential trade deal between the UK and the USA and made it clear that it should not undercut farmers in the United Kingdom. Good-quality food and drink are produced in the United Kingdom, and we should rightly be proud of that. However, we should not seek to undermine those standards or competition in a trade deal with the United States of America.

John, our focus should be on doing deals and making arrangements with trusted partners, such as the European Union. I have engaged in a significant number of meetings with the UK Government about the potential SPS veterinary agreement between the UK and the EU. I met the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland yesterday and Daniel Zeichner on Monday, and I have met Nick Thomas-Symonds and other Ministers. Those meetings were to ensure that Northern Ireland can fully benefit from that deal. I want to ensure that the SPS veterinary agreement enables us to suspend a number of areas of the Windsor framework, such as the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme (NIRMS), the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme (NIPHL) and others.

If the UK aligns with the European Union on a number of those key areas, that will allow us to increase trade with the European Union and put a lot of the difficulties that we have had in the past number of years into the past. That is what we need to do. My concerns about the carveouts that could be sought are on the record, particularly with gene editing. I met Daniel Zeichner, the DEFRA Minister, on Monday about that, because the UK Government's progression on gene editing in England does not align with the European Union's position. We should have nothing that will potentially increase friction between GB and NI. We should focus on reducing friction to create a situation that boosts trade. There are many opportunities as a result of the UK/EU reset to grow the UK economy whilst protecting our environment. I hope that the summit in May delivers the goods for citizens across the UK.

Mr Blair: I am relieved to hear that, Chair. A former Prime Minister — I cannot remember how many Prime Ministers ago, because I lost count under the last regime — talked quite dangerously about trade deals that would have undercut Northern Ireland's farmers and others on these islands.

Finally, if I may, collaboration is mentioned throughout the corporate plan, and I am glad to see the inter-agency and interdepartmental response, which is key to dealing with a number of issues, including water quality. Can we be given any indication of how the collaboration on water quality is progressing?

Mr Muir: A lot of good work on water quality is going on. The best demonstration of that is the fact that I met my counterpart in the South, Darragh O'Brien, the Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications. I have a lot of respect for Darragh, and we have a good working relationship. At that meeting, we agreed on a number of actions that are about taking forward the commitment in the Irish Government's Programme for Government to an all-island approach to water quality. There will be significant ongoing engagement about water quality.

We are also working across our Department to integrate a lot of our approaches to water quality. There is also significant engagement with local government as a result of the Lough Neagh stakeholder forum, which I chair. The forum meets quarterly, and I am grateful that local government, the Department for Infrastructure, NI Water and other organisations come to those meetings. The only way to find a way through to improve water quality is to work together on the issue, and I am committed to doing that.

There are difficult decisions on the horizon to be made about water quality, and we cannot dodge them. It is very likely that we will see blue-green algae in Lough Neagh this year. The lovely weather outside fills me with dread. It fills other people with happiness, but it does not do that for me. We are likely to see a significant problem in Lough Neagh, and that will require us to face up to decisions. The situation with NI Water's pollution of our waterways is not sustainable. Also, we need to change farming practices to reduce nutrient loss into our waterways.

Two weeks ago, I engaged with the sustainable utilisation of livestock slurry (SULS) project. That is a transformative intervention that moves towards the sustainable management of slurry and manure in order to allow us to improve water quality. The tools are in front of us, but we need to grasp them.

Mr Blair: For the record, I hope that we really are coming to the point where, when our politicians release statements about Lough Neagh and other waters, they offer solutions as well as their observations and some hysteria.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you, John. On your first point, the OEP is coming to the Committee on 29 May, and we can further expedite the matter. You can now share the cup with Tom for the longest run into a question.

Patsy, go ahead.

Mr McGlone: It is good to see you, Minister and Katrina. Last night, I saw on social media that Wicklow County Council had carried out an air support exercise for gorse fires, such as those that we have been experiencing, particularly but not exclusively in County Down. Why has air support not been used here? I have seen it used in other parts of the world.

Mr Muir: I spoke to the Health Minister, who has responsibility for the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service, on Monday about it. We respect the fact that the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service is largely taking the lead on the matter, and we respect its professional judgement on air support. Is that a fair summary?

Mrs Godfrey: Yes. Those are very much operational decisions for NIFRS and the Department of Health. My memory of the 2021 fires was that NIFRS had the option to look at air support; the Chair will know more about that than I do. From our perspective, one of the practical things that we were able to do through NIEA was the opposite. The ground support — the all-terrain vehicles (ATVs) — not only helps in the aftermath but has been crucial to NIFRS in helping it get to sites that might otherwise have been inaccessible.

Mr McGlone: It is not ruled out, but it is a call for another Department and the Fire and Rescue Service: is that what you are saying?

Mrs Godfrey: That is my understanding, yes.

Mr Muir: I am conscious of the fact that we are here from the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. The ultimate responsibility for responding to fires lies with the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service. Feedback was provided to me on Monday in the Chamber, and we passed that to the Department of Health.

Let us circle right back and say that those fires are entirely preventable. The people who are deliberately lighting them are a disgrace and should be treated as pariahs. If anyone knows who is doing it, they need to lift the phone and report it to the police or to Crimestoppers. We need to see people in court for it. The money that is being spent on the response not just by the Fire and Rescue Service but by the police, my Department and NI Water is scandalous.

Mrs Godfrey: On the environmental damage as well.

Mr Muir: The scenes of environmental damage are apocalyptic. This is spring, and nature is meant to come alive, rather than being destroyed. It is not lost on me that the Mourne Mountains and other areas are jewels in our crown. You will have seen on TV that there are people living in fear that they could lose their home. That is no way to be.

Mr McGlone: I get that. Thank you for that.

I want to move on to TB, and I am trying to pin this one down, Minister. You said that you had a credible pathway and a blueprint. When will that credible pathway — I think that Tom picked up on this — and the blueprint formulate into actions? Has the stakeholder base bought into those actions?

Mr Muir: I do not want to say the word "soon" again. [Laughter.]

That draft blueprint is there. I have signed off the foreword to it. The group met yesterday and is looking at finalising the blueprint. In the next week or two, I would like to be able to have that out the door and published. The actions will fall out of that. Is that a fair summary? I do not want to prejudge it, because I have a lot of respect for the stakeholders, and I do not want to block people in.

Mrs Godfrey: The challenge has been about making sure that everybody has confidence in the plan so that they can play their part. As you and the Minister said, we will not drive the improvements that we need without everybody playing their part across the three pillars.

Mr McGlone: I just want to get it clear in my mind. Is this a complete blueprint for an action plan that will see us through to the very end, or is it a blueprint for the first stage of what might be an action plan?

Mr Muir: Hopefully, you will get it next week. It is not for want of my desire. I have tortured the Chief Veterinary Officer; I have been ringing him nearly every day, saying, "When we are getting this?". That is why there were 11 meetings with the stakeholder group on all that. Hopefully, it will be published soon. We will have to consider how we will engage with the Committee to take you through it. We are keen to do that. I want to show respect to the stakeholder process, because they have to engage with their members as well. I have to show respect for that.

Mr McGlone: Does that mean that you cannot answer whether it is the total package?

Mr Muir: I would like to think that it will be the total package towards eradication. That is what I would like to see it being. Without that, it will not do the job.

Mr McGlone: No, it will not. We have waited long enough for that.

The final thing is the big issue that should be exercising Governments all over the world: the Trump tariffs. I want to establish something for myself. Given the nature of agri-food on the entire island of Ireland — I know that the Taoiseach mentioned it this morning — can you outline what action is being taken with the authorities and the Government in the Republic and, by extension, the EU to ensure that everything works seamlessly or as seamlessly as possible when you are dealing with someone who is as entirely unpredictable and irrational as President Trump?

What measures have been taken at your end with the rest of the island and, by extension, the EU to ensure that everything in the agri-food economy is protected insofar as it can be?

Mr Muir: This is challenging, because you are dealing with a president, who, as you outlined, is unpredictable and irresponsible, frankly, on the issue. On the potential impact on agri-food in Northern Ireland, the largest sector that could be affected is the beverages sector. I am very conscious of that. We discussed this at an Executive meeting last Thursday. The Economy Minister is taking a lead on it.

One of the other impacts from any potential tariffs for goods coming in from the United States of America concerns corn gluten. That would have an impact on feed. I will engage the Northern Ireland Grain Trade Association (NIGTA) on that this evening, because it is a key concern. I really support the work of the Economy Minister on this, which focuses on cool heads and on working in conjunction with the UK Government on the assistance that they can give. My counterpart Minister for Agriculture down South is over in the States or has recently come back. I will speak to him in the days ahead, as things are, perhaps, settling down a bit on this. That is where our concerns lie, particularly in the beverages sector.

Mrs Godfrey: The other thing, Minister, that you have been doing is making sure that, from an agri-food perspective, the UK Government understand and continue to understand the significance of that sector to our economy.

Mr Muir: Yes, I am blue in the face doing that.

Mr McGlone: And how it works. Items traverse the border every day.

Mrs Godfrey: That was the point that the Taoiseach was making this morning. I noted that he said that his officials were in contact with the Executive. I imagine that that is through the Department for the Economy, but we will pick up on that with colleagues.

Mr McGlone: That is grand. Thanks, Minister.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): For the record, I will win the bet, because I knew that you would be the longest, and you were.

On that issue, Minister, the Committee has asked for Research and Information Service (RaISe) papers specifically on that that will be added into the mix. Those will be published, and we will make you aware of them when they come through.

Mr Muir: That would be useful.

Ms Murphy: Thank you, Minister and Katrina, for coming in. I will be — I will try to be — concise.

Mr Muir: I will try as well.

Ms Murphy: Can you talk me through the rationale behind developing a new rural policy framework, given that the previous Minister had also developed a framework that was quite successful, on the basis of some of the pilots that were rolled out?

Mr Muir: We are in a different position, because the rural development programme (RDP) has been wound down. That is one of the impacts of Brexit. We need to consider across government how we best target our support for rural communities. We are looking at some interim schemes, but we need to do a lot more collaboration across government. There is a desire to do that, particularly with the Department for Communities, and that policy also needs to be carried out in conjunction with rural communities.

The issues that face rural communities now compared with a number of years ago are very different. Childcare is a massive issue, and the Department of Education has the lead on that, so we need to coordinate the response. There is a real issue with access to healthcare. If we are going to transform healthcare in Northern Ireland, we need to ensure that people from rural communities are not left out. It is easy to talk about that in urban areas, but, in rural areas, it is a really significant issue, so there needs to be liaison with the Department of Health on that.

The wider economy piece is also key. A lot more people work remotely from home, and that brings up issues with childcare. That is why we need to have a different way forward. I regret the loss of the rural development programme. I regret Brexit, frankly, but that is a discussion for another day. The rural development programme was a real benefit for us in Northern Ireland, and to see its loss is really regrettable. The Finance Minister is engaging with the UK Government on future replacement EU funding and support schemes, and we can consider those in the round.

Mrs Godfrey: The other thing that is worth mentioning is that you have written to all your Executive colleagues on that very point and that they have been positive in responding. Lead officials in each Department are now working with our team in a way that certainly seems and feels to me much more joined up than it might have been three or four years ago, Áine. I detect a real understanding and a real commitment now that we have a role as the champion for rural communities, but every other Department cannot just say, "It is rural, so it must be for DAERA". Everybody has a role to play, as the Minister was saying.

The way in which we have secured buy-in from other Departments should and will make a real difference. There have also been good conversations with rural stakeholders and local councils. Those have been really important. It is how we should do new policy development: in conjunction with those who are most affected by it.

Ms Murphy: Absolutely, Katrina. You are right in saying that Departments will just fob it off on DAERA as the lead Department for policy. It is great to see that the cross-departmental working has ramped up to the stage at which it needs to be at, and that will hopefully continue. When are we likely to see new policy coming out the door?

Mr Muir: The plan is do the process of co-design, consultation and finalisation of the policy in this financial year. The desire is then to conclude the process by the end of the financial year or at the beginning of the next one. That is the discussion that I have had with officials. I want it in place as soon as possible, but we need to do it correctly.

Mrs Godfrey: Hopefully, the new policy will go out to consultation later this year. That will allow us to wrap everything up. The Minister is determined to have a policy in place as quickly as possible, and I know that officials are very seized of that. There is also an expectation that, once one starts to engage with stakeholders and listen to them, they quite reasonably want to know, "When is the product coming?".

Ms Murphy: That is understandable.

Minister, do any of your 10 key pledges have to be signed off at Executive level?

Mr Muir: We deal with each one depending on its circumstances. For example, on improving environmental governance, once the review has been completed and recommendations come from the panel, I will take into account its opinions and then take my view to the Executive. It is important that I do that.

Mrs Godfrey: Lough Neagh, for example, has already been discussed at the Executive.

Mr Muir: Yes. Carbon budgets are a cross-departmental issue, so we need to do that.

The challenges facing us in Northern Ireland are significant. Our environment is in a really bad place. The environmental dashboard is flashing red, so we need to find ways to get consensus and move forward, and I am committed to doing that, because we need to deliver progress.

I know that the farming community's concerns are acute, particularly in the context of the decision on inheritance tax, which the UK Government do not seem to be planning to change. I will continue to raise that matter with them, but, while the UK Government dig in on that, it does not stop us from rolling out the sustainable agriculture programme, the main elements of which were announced in March 2022. We continue to move at pace to get that support out, and I am really heartened to see the level of support that is evidenced from people attending the events. We are giving farmers briefings on the scheme.

There is lots happening and going out the door. The Minister of Finance and the Executive have ring-fenced the budget for agriculture, agrienvironment, fisheries and rural development. We are the only devolved Administration who were able to secure a ring-fenced budget. Scotland and Wales do not have that in place. That demonstrates the benefits of working together in the Executive.

Ms Murphy: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Aoife, do you have anything to add?

Ms Finnegan: I will be even quicker. [Laughter.]

First, I echo your comments and pay tribute to the Fire and Rescue Service. It has done an amazing job in difficult circumstances.

I will pick up on your comments about upland management. How will you help farmers manage the land and put in place measures such as fire blocks to protect their land? As you said, nobody knows their land better than farmers do.

Mr Muir: I am passionate about that. Your question concerns the roll-out of Farming with Nature, and that is why we are launching the transition scheme this year. There will be further roll-out of the scheme. I thank the officials in my Department and those who are engaging on the co-design group on Farming with Nature. There is a lot more that we can do to support farmers with better upland management. It is key that we roll out the scheme over the time ahead.

Alongside that, on the strategic way forward for dealing with wildfires, we need to have an honest conversation and consultation on the prescribed burning period. The period in the South finishes six weeks before ours, and there are different penalties down South. We need to have a conversation with ourselves about how we do that, because we need to protect sites for future generations. It really saddens me to see some of the damage that is being done to our environment. Let us get ourselves to a better place and have more protected sites in Northern Ireland. Let us have our environment go in the right direction and have Northern Ireland be somewhere of which we can be proud. Let us see the wildfires become an issue of the past. Let us start turning the tide on that situation in Lough Neagh by taking difficult decisions. People look to the Executive and to me to grasp the difficult issues and face up to them. I will not be found wanting in that regard.

Ms Finnegan: Finally, you mentioned the capital sum of £12·3 million for the just transition fund for agriculture. Will you give me an example of the mechanisms that will be put in place to ensure that there is a just transition process in order to achieve net zero?

Mr Muir: Just transition runs all the way through the climate change legislation. In it was a provision to establish a just transition fund for agriculture. We bid to the UK Government for funding for it and were unsuccessful, so we put our shoulder to the wheel and engaged with the Finance Minister and were able to secure funding for it in the Budget for this financial year. That represents great progress. In the medium term, we want to scope out the purpose of the just transition fund for agriculture. We now have the money. John O'Dowd was able to deliver it pretty quickly: good guy. We will be able to turn the money around and deliver on the ground the just transition fund for agriculture in this financial year. We want a policy that sets out more broadly how we use the funding, however.

Just transition goes beyond that fund. Regarding your question, with Farming with Nature, there are clear examples of a win-win situation. I had a fantastic meeting yesterday with my counterpart in the South, the Minister for Climate, Environment and Energy, on peatlands restoration. We have a real desire to redouble our efforts on cross-border collaboration on that.

Let me be clear that the scenes of recent days would not have been witnessed if we had had better upland management or had restored our peatlands. That is what we want to do. I am really grateful for the Shared Island funding that we received. Very soon, I will go to the Executive and ask for support for a peatlands strategy for Northern Ireland. Those are really positive things that are just transition in operation. They run all the way through the sustainable agriculture programme.

For me, climate change is the biggest risk to farming in Northern Ireland. It is a severe risk. Look at the Met Office projections on it: they are scary. I owe it to farmers in Northern Ireland to have that just transition and to give them the tools to restore our environment.

I pay tribute to so many farmers whom I have had the privilege to meet over the past year who are fantastic examples of environmental custodians of our countryside. I was proud that the King came to Northern Ireland and met them. It was great to be able to showcase those people to him, and he was so impressed by the work that has taken place.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Minister, thank you so much, and thank you for extending your time. I do not think that we were terribly mischievous in that regard. [Laughter.]

Mr Muir: Tom started it. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I noticed that when Áine from — is it County Tyrone that you are from, Áine?

Ms Murphy: Oh, no. County Fermanagh.

Mr McAleer: She is from Tyrone. She wants to be from Tyrone.

Ms Murphy: Not a bit of it.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Tyrone and Fermanagh is a different brief.

Thank you so much for your time, Minister and Katrina. We really appreciate it.