Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you very much for joining us today. I am sorry that we have run over time and kept you waiting. Please forgive me if I pronounce any names incorrectly. Joining us today are Tiwalade Olatunbosun, a representative from Diverse Youth NI; and Inioluwa Olaosebikan, who is also —.

Mr Martin: He has been practising all afternoon. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I am a man of many talents. Inioluwa Olaosebikan is a youth representative from Diverse Youth NI. You are very welcome. We have had evidence from one of the panel members before, so it will be great to hear from her again. We are looking forward to your evidence today. Over to you for any opening remarks of up to 10 minutes that you want to make. You should not feel the need to go on for the full 10 minutes. We are very keen to get to questions and answers to hear from you in a bit more detail, and to hear any reflections that you have on the Bill. Feel free to provide an introduction on the work that your organisation does so that everyone is clear and understands. Over to you.

Ms Tiwalade Olatunbosun (Diverse Youth Northern Ireland): Thank you very much. I am a volunteer with Diverse Youth, and I am also a parent; I have three kids aged 17, 15 and 13, so this issue is very close to my heart.

Diverse Youth is an organisation that works with children from the BME community to amplify their voices and ensure that they feel integrated, included, safe and welcome in Northern Ireland.

It was created in 2017 and has been growing. I came to Northern Ireland five years ago, so I am still a newbie here, but my children have benefited from Diverse Youth NI. I am here to talk about school uniforms from a parent's point of view and that of the children with whom we work in Diverse Youth.

As I mentioned, I have three children. Two are in a regular mainstream school, and one is in grammar school. The one who is in grammar school started in September last year. The difference in the cost of his school uniform and that of the others was crazy, if you know what I mean. It was a lot.

As a volunteer with Diverse Youth, I work with young children from all backgrounds, including those from low-income families and those who feel marginalised in the community. I see at first-hand the struggles that many families face when it comes to affording basic school essentials. The cost of school uniforms is not just an individual concern; it is a community-wide issue. I know how I, as a parent, panic when it comes to uniforms, and I have seen other parents panicking when it comes to school uniforms. For instance, a lot of parents put their ears to the ground to make sure that they get first-hand information on places that do uniform swaps. Some feel bad about using uniform swaps for their children. They hear, "Why can't you get a new one? Mummy, why didn't you get me a new one? Why are you getting me a used one?".

As much as parents want to, they cannot afford those things, because of the prices, even when they apply for uniform grants. When you put everything together, the uniform grants will not sort out the child in the grammar school. I speak from experience. That did not sort out the one in the grammar school. He is a boy, so I was able to manage, because I could get his trousers elsewhere, whereas I have a girl for whom I must get skirts. As the previous witnesses stated, children have growth spurts during the school year, which means that you are changing the skirts, the blazers or x, y and z. In my son's grammar school, all the PE uniforms are branded. He cannot do anything without having the branded PE uniform. The school will even tell you, "He cannot come in with x, y or z", and I think, "OK". Luckily, we were able to get the PE uniform, but I got it second-hand. I can tell you that for free. I got it from the school uniform exchange. The financial burden is always a lot. For instance, my older son is going into sixth form, so we are changing his jumper and blazer. That is a new uniform. My two children who are in the same school are of different sex, but my daughter cannot wear my son's blazer, because the girls' blazer is different from the boys' one. It is a whole lot.

Parents have endured the financial strain of rigid and expensive uniform policies. While uniforms are meant to foster a sense of belonging and reduce peer pressure, the reality is that they have become an overwhelming burden for parents and even for children. One of the members mentioned something about shoes. Parents who can afford expensive shoes will definitely buy them — we are not going to take that away from you — but sometimes your own children come home and say, "Oh, I want Jordans", but I cannot afford them. I will definitely go to Primark and get what I can afford. Do you understand what I mean?

One of the members asked a question that I really liked, which was this: maybe schools can take out branded shoes from uniforms. As much as you want your branded uniforms, maybe you should now take out branded shoes. If you want us to wear plain white trainers with no names, that may be affordable. That is OK. In my country, Nigeria, when I was growing up, and in the school that I worked in — I was a teacher in Nigeria — PE uniforms were the same for everybody. The girls do not have to wear leggings. They have to wear school shorts. It is the same for everybody. The only way that you know the difference between a male and a female uniform is by the female uniform having a bit of a collar. Otherwise, everybody wears the same thing. That means that I do not have to run to get branded leggings for the girls or branded joggers for the boys, because everybody wears the same shorts. They are not branded. They are the same thing. They tell you, "Wear black shorts and a white t-shirt", just like in primary school. Do you get what I mean? For me, if that pressure were to be taken off, it would go a long way.

For single parents, families with multiple children and those who are already battling the rising cost of living, those expenses are simply too much. No parent should have to choose between paying essential bills and ensuring that their child has the correct school attire. As part of my work with Diverse Youth NI, I have heard from parents who are forced to cut corners elsewhere. Some struggle to even put food on the table, because they have to get the uniforms, and they do not want their children to stay at home. That is unacceptable. No child should feel excluded or ashamed because their family cannot afford a specific blazer or a logoed jumper.

That is why I fully support the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. It is not about abolishing uniforms; it is about fairness, affordability and accessibility. It is about ensuring that the school offers affordable options and allows parents to purchase unbranded items without the fear of their children being penalised. It is also about giving families breathing room in an already challenging economy. We must ask ourselves whether education should be defined by labels or costly requirements, or whether it should be about learning, growth and opportunity for every child, regardless of your financial background.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Is it just you who is giving a presentation?

Ms Olatunbosun: Inioluwa has something to say from a young person's point of view.

Ms Inioluwa Olaosebikan (Diverse Youth Northern Ireland): I thought that you were going to ask Tiwalade questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): We will move to questions at the end. It was really great to hear a parent's perspective, and it will be great to hear a young person's side now.

Ms Olaosebikan: Good evening, Chair and members of the Committee. My name is Inioluwa Olaosebikan, and I am student at Methodist College Belfast, speaking on behalf of Diverse Youth NI. Last year, I was here to talk about the lack of educational access for young people, and now I am here to talk about the School Uniforms Bill. Last year, I was not a student, but now I am. That goes to show that young people's issues are forever evolving. Our organisation represents young people from diverse backgrounds, including migrants, ethnic minorities and low-income families, as mentioned earlier. All those groups face a lot of barriers around school uniform costs, accessibility and inclusivity. I want to share some perspectives that I have gathered about the School Uniforms Bill.

Uniform costs are a major stressor. For families who are already managing tight budgets, the price of new blazers, jumpers and PE kits — the list is endless — can be overwhelming. Young people tell us that they feel anxious at the start of term and wonder whether they have the right items to fit in. I know that I definitely felt that when I came into a completely different education system. I worried about where to get the jumper, the blazer and a whole lot of new things that young people should not have to struggle with.

The Bill promises to establish cost caps and encourage value for money in shopping. That is hugely welcome. If basic items, such as a plain shirt or jumper, are reasonably priced, families will not have to choose between buying food or uniforms, as mentioned. Many of our young people have no older siblings who can pass down uniform items. I certainly did not, and my sister does not. A school-run clothing bank that is stocked with gently used blazers, jumpers and PE kits would immediately reduce the financial burden. It would also foster a culture of reuse that benefits low-income families and those who are environmentally conscious.

A lot of school students need uniform adjustments for reasons to do with modesty or religious dressing or personal reasons. Restrictive styles or insistence on a single supplier can exclude those pupils. The Bill rightly highlights comfort, especially for students who require looser or layered garments. We urge the Committee to ensure that guidelines explicitly mention reasonable accommodation for head coverings or other cultural dressing. When schools develop or review their uniform policies, they should actively seek input from families, perhaps through surveys or other means. That way, policies will reflect real and diverse needs rather than assumptions.

Some of the young people whom we work with, especially girls, have told us that they are not allowed to wear trousers as part of their uniform. In 2025, that is quite hard to justify. We know that comfort, body confidence and personal preference all play a role in what a student feels comfortable in when it comes to their uniform.

Skirt-only policies for girls do not reflect that. We are asking the Committee to make sure that the final guidelines clearly state that every student, regardless of gender, must have the option to wear trousers as part of their uniform. We believe that it is a basic matter of comfort, inclusivity and equality. A uniform should never be a source of discomfort or embarrassment, especially not because of someone's gender.

We also want to highlight the fact that early years matter. Although the Bill does not innately cover preschool settings, our communities see the value of extending these guidelines to nurseries. If nurseries open a preschool clothing bank or adopt the same cost-cap mindset, families with multiple young people will benefit even more.

It is also important to mention reusing and recycling uniforms. Our young people care deeply about the environment, and they also want to see guidelines that not only cap costs but encourage eco-friendly fabrics like recycled polyester or organic cotton. There should be guidelines on how to donate or recycle old uniforms, and a clear statement that schools must promote uniform-swapping events — for example, twice a year — would combine affordability with sustainability.

In summary, young people at Diverse Youth NI believe that the School Uniforms Bill is an important step towards reducing stigma and financial pressure. To make sure that it is truly effective for migrants and other disadvantaged groups, we recommend that uniform costs be capped. Cultural and religious clothing needs should be clearly protected in the final guidelines, and schools should consult widely through translator surveys to reflect diverse needs. Girls should have the right to wear trousers. Preschool should not be left behind, and environmental sustainability must be part of the solution. By adopting those recommendations, this Committee can ensure that every young person starts the school year feeling included and valued and able to focus on learning instead of worrying about what they are wearing. Thank you for listening. I welcome any questions you might have.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you both for your evidence. It was a great conclusion to a really good afternoon of evidence that has been so helpful in determining how the Committee is going to frame its approach to the Bill.

I want to make a very quick comment. We heard evidence last week from the National Association of Head Teachers, which set out quite clearly that it felt that there is not a problem, that everything is operating fine and that school uniform policies do not really need legislation. Your evidence quite clearly sets out some of the challenges, even some of the almost perverse aspects of uniform policy, such as the fact that a girl's uniform costs more and that you cannot pass a blazer that belonged to a girl on to a boy because they are different, and then changing the uniform at sixth form — all those layers of things that just add cost pressure. It was a really clear articulation of clear examples of how it is not working in every school. That is not say that there are not schools where uniform policies are applied sensibly and with a view to protecting parents from costs, but it was really helpful to set the context that it is not the case that everything is working fine in every school.

Towards the end of your evidence, you used the phrase "reasonable accommodation" and referenced religious or cultural reasons. In your work with Diverse Youth NI, do you have examples of pupils who have not found that flexibility in schools? What impact has that had on them?

Ms Olaosebikan: On flexibility, I have definitely noticed that a lot of school uniforms have shorter skirts and skirts that are above the knees. Some students may require skirts that are floor-length, but, because the school does not provide accommodation for that, they have to source uniforms and get special permission from the school to wear them. They often have to rely on stretchy spandex material or uniforms that are clearly not in line with those worn by the rest of their peers. That might feel isolating for students to have to go to such lengths to get something that addresses their cultural, religious or modesty reasons. It is important that, in creating these policies, we reflect the needs of young people who may not have the exact same needs but need potential accommodation. Schools should definitely be more reasonable in setting guidelines to accommodate every single person who comes through the door.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I asked other witnesses this today: would you welcome a specific clause in the Bill that would require uniform policies to specifically take account of and make clear provisions for gender, race, religion and disability, in order to ensure that reasonable accommodations are built in?

Ms Olaosebikan: Definitely.

Ms Olatunbosun: Yes.

Ms Olaosebikan: I see that as being a very useful avenue to discuss with children. At the same time, I feel that there is also a need to reach out. Not everyone fills in surveys or checks their emails, so there is a need to reach out through different avenues and promote the fact that we are trying to get people's views about the school uniform policy. That would definitely encourage inclusivity amongst students and make them feel that they are part of the process.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I have one other question. I am conscious of time, so I will get to it quickly, and maybe you could give just a quick answer. In your evidence, you mentioned uniform banks and second-hand uniform exchanges. Is that something that you have found to be helpful? The Bill makes provision for the guidance that comes through having to cover that. Would you like to see that guidance requiring schools to provide those services?

Ms Olatunbosun: Yes. Schools provide that, and some churches also do it. I went to my son's school. I did not get all of what he wanted there, because most of what was there was too big for his age. I had to go to a church to get the ones that were in his size. I did not need to pay for the ones that I got from the church, but I paid for what I got from the school. That was quite affordable. That gave me room to get the more expensive things that I could not get at the school, such as the blazer. I was not able to get a blazer in his size. I was able to get other things, like the jumper and the branded sports shorts and T-shirt, but I had to put the money together to get the blazer, which was way too expensive.

I will go back to what Inioluwa said about the skirts. The skirts for my daughter's school stop at a particular length. If you want waist size 30, the length goes to 24, which is just below the knees. I should explain that some people, for religious, cultural, or just personal reasons, want skirts that go way below that. That allowance should be added to skirts. It should be made possible, especially for girls, to get the short, medium or long skirt, depending on what they want.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. That is all very helpful. I will hand over to the Deputy Chair.

Mr Sheehan: Thanks. You stole the question that I was going to ask.

I remember that you came to the Committee last year, Inioluwa. I am very glad to hear that you got a place in a school here.

Ms Olaosebikan: Thank you, Pat.

Mr Sheehan: I want to touch on the issue that Nick raised about uniform banks, and especially any stigma that might be attached to parents using those banks. My instinct is that you are not concerned about that.

Ms Olatunbosun: I am not concerned about it, but it was a culture shock when I got here. There is a saying that, when you are in Rome, act like the Romans. I see that people from here do it, so I think, "What's the big deal? Just go get it", so long as it is in good condition. There are, however, people who I know for a fact would be like, "Oh no, I can't go there", or who would even hide — they do not want to go on days when they might meet other people who know them. For some people, it is a no-no; for other people, it is not a big deal.

For me, being alone here with my kids, I see it as being OK but also not OK, if you get what I mean. It is not OK, because, once I take the uniform home, my son is like, "Huh. Mum, it's not new". You know what I mean? There are uniform swaps as well, and some children will already have written their name on it, so you have to take extra time to peel off the badge or take out a permanent marker to make sure that I strike that out so that my son knows that it belongs to him. It is just different. You get what I mean. I do not have a problem with it.

Mr Sheehan: Do you think that it would help in any way to do away with the stigma if it were to become a requirement, through this legislation, that all schools had to establish a uniform bank? That might help it to become normalised in terms of not just affordability but also sustainability. I know some parents who basically just throw a uniform away once the child has grown out of it. What is your view on including in the legislation that all schools have to have a uniform bank?

Ms Olaosebikan: I think it would work.

Ms Olatunbosun: It would go a long way for them to put that into it. We would just try to make sure that we let people know that the uniform must be in good condition. I can tell you for free that I am going to throw away the blazer that my son has worn in school this past term. Why? It is so worn. I do not know what the boy did with it, but it is all worn out. If I cannot allow my son to wear it for another school term, why should I take it to a uniform bank?

Mr Martin: He is being a boy, is he not?

Ms Olatunbosun: He is being a boy.

I know that I am going to throw that one away. We should try to let people know that they should make sure that things are in good condition. Sometimes, when we go to the school banks, we see things that are not in good condition at all, but the people who sorted them out kept them on the hangers. Some are torn. Just make sure that, if it is going to be passed on, it is in good condition: as long as your child can still wear it, you can bring it.

Mr Sheehan: Do you want to add anything to that?

Ms Olaosebikan: Yes. I definitely want to talk about my sister. She went to the second-hand shop in her school to get pre-loved clothing, and it was so affordable. I wondered, "Why is this so affordable when the real prices are five times as much?", until I found out that the school had switched out all the uniforms, so we had to buy completely new ones. Not letting parents know in advance that there are going to be changes is not good. She was going into year 8 last year, and the previous years had changed their uniforms, so they still had the old uniforms in stock for parents to buy, which I felt was misleading.

Uniforms are a point of pride, so it is important that young people do not feel excluded. When my sister attended the first school gathering and everyone was in a different uniform, she wondered why. I felt so bad, and my mum felt really bad as well. We had to completely switch out the uniform. It is important that schools are transparent about those processes instead of misleading parents into thinking that, if they go to a uniform swap — it will be very affordable, but they might not get the right clothes or the quality that they want. It is important to be transparent and to take into account the quality of the clothes that are being sold.

Mr Baker: Your earlier points were spot on. You talked about boys and girls wearing gender-neutral uniform. Sometimes that conversation goes a different way, but the affordability point is a really good one. If the uniform is the same, you can pass it down. Thank you for that. Uniforms are meant to be a great equaliser for schools, but, for affordability, that is not the case. I am just looking at your uniform, and I hope that you do not mind my commenting on it, but I can see that the tie, jumper and blazer are all branded.

Ms Olaosebikan: Yes.

Mr Baker: How many more items in your schools are branded?

Ms Olaosebikan: Everything except my tights.

Mr Baker: Out of all of it, what must you have?

Ms Olaosebikan: I was basically discouraged from doing sports. I thought, "There is no point in buying this much if I am going to be at the school for a year or two at the most". I just bought the blazer, tie, jumper, skirt and scarf, but that comes with wearing the school quarter-zip and the school jacket. It is way too much.

Mr Baker: Are you allowed to wear any other items, or do they have to be the school's items?

Ms Olaosebikan: It has to be. During the winter months, for example, under our school policy, you are not even allowed to wear a puffer jacket that is not the school's brand. That feels like a step too far. There is something about uniform, but, at the same time, it should be comfortable and practical. Some people just want to feel warm. I used to walk for 15 or 20 minutes to get to school. The moment that I got to the school gates, I had to take off my jumper and my puffer jacket, but there was still a 10-minute walk to get to my class, so that felt impractical. The school should be transparent about why these things are necessary. It feels like a burden, most times, to have to wear this many branded items to school. It does not feel necessary in the least. I see why you might want to have a branded jumper or a branded blazer, but there are so many things that are taken too far, like PE kits needing to be branded as well. It is just sports. It is not a team sport, it is just physical activity. Why do those things need to be branded as well?

Mr Baker: A couple of very important points. You are being excluded from participating in school because of a branded item. Also, if it is a real winter's day, with the chance of rain, you are going to get soaked going into school because you do not have —.

Ms Olaosebikan: Yes. Yes, very cold. I get cold really easily because I am from a tropical climate, so I am not used to the cold. It gets really cold during the winter months. I remember that I used to get frostbite almost every single day. It is a thing of being empathetic towards the students and letting them wear what they need to wear in order to feel comfortable. That is all.

Mr Baker: What are the ramifications? I am thinking about a really bad day and you going, "I am not getting soaked. I will wear my coat on through". What are the ramifications for you if you want to keep yourself dry? What will happen?

Ms Olaosebikan: Probably detention.

Ms Olatunbosun: If I can add to what she has said, my kids are not allowed to wear their puffer jackets at the gate, like she said, so they take them off. I am like, "Is it not cold?" They tell me, "Mommy, it is cold", and they do not switch on the heater quickly at school. I am also from a very warm country. As I speak to you, my hands are cold, even though it is still warm. [Laughter.]

I do not think that that is fair, because, even if they layer sometimes during the winter months, they still need to have that jacket on to keep them extra warm.

Concerning PE, the school of my first two children is not big on branded items, except the top. It is not big on the bottoms, so they can wear any black leggings or sweatpants, as long as they are not branded. They must be plain black. For my younger son, who is in a grammar school, everything is branded. They play rugby — it is compulsory to play rugby in year 8 — so he has to have branded shorts, a branded T-shirt, outside of the branded tracksuit and branded zipper, and kids grow every day. At one point, my daughter wanted to get the branded tights, the branded leggings, because they sell them at school, although it is not compulsory. She was, "But my friends have it". Sometimes there is that pressure: "Why am I not getting what my friends have?" You get what I mean. If they are not branded, at least I know that we can just get any black one, and everybody is fine. Look at what Inioluwa said now: she has barely a year more to go in school, and if she is going to buy all of that, in less than six months, definitely, she will be taking it back, but she has spent a lot to get it. Do you know what I mean? If even those branded ones could be taken off —. Like she said, "It is just PE". Sometimes, like you said, my boy has always been a boy, and those things come back very black and it is a struggle to get them washed. You get what I mean. It is branded, and sometimes the knees are ripped six weeks into the term, and I do not want my child wearing torn clothes, but because they are branded, I am like, "OK, do you know what? Maybe you wait for a little more time". It will keep getting worn out, but if it is an unbranded one, I know that I can go to Primark and get one for £2. If it gets ripped, we go again. If it gets ripped, we go again. You get what I mean. But the branded ones are really expensive.

Mr Baker: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Just draw a very quick point. We are over time.

Mr Baker: You may not be able to legislate for peer pressure, but you can certainly legislate for the inequalities that exist.

Ms Olatunbosun: Exactly.

Ms Olaosebikan: Definitely.

Mr Martin: I have been blown away this afternoon, ladies, by, as I have written here, your passion and your eloquence. It has been a joy to sit and listen to you. There is a real sense of reality to the issues that you are bringing to the Committee. Thank you very much for that.

From the evidence that you have presented so far, I get a real sense that the sportswear seems to be the particular issue. You have just used an example of the branded leggings and the pressure that there is to have them. Is it your evidence that actually the sportswear — are they both the same? Is it sportswear and the normal school uniform? Is one more important than the other, or are they both the same?

Ms Olatunbosun: I think that they are both the same, but the uniform is worn every day and you have to take or wear sportswear on certain days. Sometimes you have to take the sports kit in your bag, and sometimes you have a particular day where you get to wear it from the house. For me, it is the same thing. The blazers especially are crazily expensive. I am the shortest person in my house. My first son is 6' 2", and we have had to buy him another blazer this year. With the one that he was wearing, he was telling me, "Mum, look, it is short". You get what I mean. It is really expensive, and the higher your size, the more it costs. My older son and my younger son are not in the same school, so I can never pass school clothes down. That is not possible. They are in two different schools. You get what I mean. There is a lot of pressure on everything.

Ms Olaosebikan: Also, the male blazers are slightly cheaper, so I was a little tempted to buy the male blazers. I was like, "What is the big deal?" It is just one strip on both arms that is the big difference between the two. If we are talking about equality and having the same amount of branded items across the board, the prices should also be the same and should not be hiked more for one gender than the other.

Mr Martin: Inioluwa, picking up on something that you said earlier — Danny picked it up as well — my sense is that you might have liked to play sport but that, for you, the sheer cost of the sports kit was one of the deciding factors in why you decided that you were not going to do that. Is that right?

Ms Olaosebikan: Yes, definitely. I did not feel the need. I enjoy physical activity outside of school. I am very active, but, as much as I would have loved to have participated in team sports, the fact that school kits and PE kits are overly expensive means that I do not really feel the need to participate. I would rather just do it outside of school, where it is affordable.

Mr Martin: My final question is a general one. The Bill is all about the school uniform. With all the evidence that you have given this afternoon, do you think that having a school uniform — something that, essentially, is the same for boys and girls — is important, and that the issue is perhaps more about the cost of that uniform? If the cost could be brought down, would your evidence be that having a uniform, whatever it might be —. It might be very basic, as you have said — a white polo shirt and black trousers. Is the very essence of having one important to you?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): In the interests of time, I ask for a brief answer.

Ms Olatunbosun: Yes, having a uniform is very important. I would rather use school uniforms than not have them. Having school uniforms is absolutely agreeable for me, because going to school without a school uniform is another pressure. If you were wearing home clothes every day, you would want to change them — "Oh, this does not look good". With a uniform, you wear it between Monday to Friday, wash it and then go on to the next week. Please, with this Bill, make the uniforms affordable. We want to go on with uniforms. As long as they are affordable, we will still wear uniforms.

Mr Brooks: Inioluwa, if you do not mind, I want to continue on with your decision to forgo school sports. Have you raised that with the school at any stage? I am not suggesting that you should have, because I know that there is a pressure with that as well.

Ms Olaosebikan: I kind of accepted my fate a long time ago, so I have not really raised it with my school. Even if I did, I do not really see what else could be done. We have a second-hand store, but it is not accessible most times. It is accessible at certain times of the year. I would have loved to when I still had the interest, but I did not feel the need because I could not see why or how that situation could be helped. I just saw how it was. Now that this Bill is coming in, however, I see more opportunities for young people like me to be able to challenge those decisions down the line or not even have to because the Bill would already have addressed everything.

Mr Brooks: If your school is watching — I hope that it is and is aware — it would give it pause for thought and would reflect on the policies that it has chosen to enact. Perhaps it has routes to inclusion around that sort of thing, but it should give greater thought to that. I have had many debates with Pat around grammar schools. I am a defender of grammar schools and the academic selection of the grammar school system, and remain so, but some of these things can sometimes go too far. If we are at a position in any school where —. Perhaps at times there is not the realisation, but perhaps today is a moment when that should be heard and reflected upon, because it will not be just you who has decided to opt out. It is particularly concerning to me to hear you say that you enjoy physical activity outside school, you enjoy your sport, and yet, if your school is the school that I think it is, it has great prowess with regard to sport, and it should have the wish not only to take pride in that but to make sure that everyone is included. I am sure that it is well motivated and a lot of good people are in it, but I hope that the school pauses for reflection on that.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): As with all the other witnesses, on behalf of the Committee, thank you for your time. Your evidence has been really helpful, and it will make an important contribution to our thinking on the Bill.

Ms Olatunbosun: Thank you very much.

Ms Olaosebikan: Thank you for having us.