Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I am pleased to say that, as part of our evidence into the Deaths, Still-Births and Baby Loss Bill, we have an oral briefing from the Forget-me-not Group, which supports parents who have experienced baby loss. We are very pleased and privileged to have members of the group here with us today. This is an important piece of legislation, which we are trying to scrutinise, and we are also trying to give people who have experienced this awful trauma the opportunity to have their say, give their experience and help us to shape the legislation in a way that is most appropriate and most impactful for people who have experienced this tragedy in their lives. Thank you all for coming.

We have with us Grace Coutts, who is the chairperson of Forget-me-not. Hi Grace. We have Kelly Barnes and Suzi Gourley, who are the treasurers, and Claire Gray, who is also a member. Thank you very much for coming, everyone. We really appreciate you giving us your time and sharing your experience. Kelly is going to give us an opening statement. Members, please indicate if you wish to ask a question.

Ms Kelly Barnes (Forget-me-not Group): Thank you for inviting us along today to have an input around the discussion of the Deaths, Still-Births and Baby Loss Bill, particularly the aspects of the Bill that deal with the baby loss certificate scheme. I will introduce us. This is Grace Coutts, mummy of Rosa Joy Coutts. Rosa passed away on 9 July 2019 and was born sleeping on 12 July 2019. Grace is the chairperson of the Forget-me-not Group. Claire Gray is mum to Matilda and Leanora. Matilda was born on 28 July 2013 and passed away on 25 October 2013. Leanora passed away on 17 November 2017 and was born on 22 November 2017. Suzi is mummy to Eli Henry Avery Gourley, and she found out on 27 July 2016 that Eli had passed away. Suzi also had an early miscarriage in 2017; a girl who she called Dotty. I am Kelly Barnes. I am mum of 12 — 11 angels. My losses range from six weeks to 21 weeks. Noah was born sleeping at 21 weeks on 19 October after our finding out the day before that he had passed. I am the treasurer of the Forget-me-not Group.

I will give a bit of background on the Forget-me-not Group. We are a group of bereaved parents who work alongside the bereavement midwives at the Ulster Hospital to improve bereavement care for families. We also provide memory-making opportunities, including the annual family day at Streamvale, the remembrance service during Baby Loss Awareness Week and trees in our Forget-me-not woodland at the Billy Neill playing fields.

Memory making is extremely important for bereaved families, and the introduction of the proposed baby loss certificate would be an important stage for bereaved families in their journey and also in the grieving process. I believe that there is a misconception that early losses have little physical and emotional impact on people and that, maybe, early loss takes a couple of days and people move on. However, this is a loss of dreams, a loss of a future, a loss of potential memories and a loss of hope. People do not just move on and get on with things.

From personal experience, I would be entitled to 11 baby loss certificates. Each certificate would be just as significant as the next one. When I had Noah, who was born at 21 weeks, it felt like he never existed. Unlike some of my earlier losses, I gave birth to Noah, I held Noah, my partner held him, and we have his ashes. However, all we have is a record of a naming ceremony that the minister did in the hospital. At the time, I found that very difficult to deal with, and I was probably quite angry about it. So, the introduction of a baby loss certificate would go a long way in offering bereaved families some recognition of their little ones, Mentally, early losses have a similar effect to those later losses, and, since my losses, I have been diagnosed with PTSD and an anxiety disorder. Although my body has recovered physically, I have a daily mental struggle.

In relation to the proposed baby loss certificates, it is important that there is no time limit on the certificates and that they can be applied for no matter when the loss. I go to a service at Christmastime every year, and there is a lady who attends, who lost her two girls, Zoe and Dawn, in 1983. She attends every service and speaks at it. The certificate will be just as important for someone who suffered a loss yesterday as it will be for someone who suffered a loss in 1983 or before that.

It is also important that medical evidence is not required, given that some losses happen at home and parents do not necessarily go to a GP or a hospital. Again, it is vital that there is no cost so that the certificate can be accessible to all. Both parents should be able to apply for the certificate so that it is not left to the birthing person. Choice is a big thing for bereaved families. They do not want to be forced down a certain route.

It would be quite beneficial to have a central register, because, down the line, it might be important for research purposes, if money is put into baby loss research, to have figures. I know that England and Scotland have very good schemes, and it would be good to use those as a base and learn from them.

It is time that all babies were recognised. Rosa matters; Eli and Dotty matter; Matilda and Leanora matter; and Noah and his brothers and sisters matter. Most importantly, they matter equally.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Thank you very much. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and for turning your loss into something so important and constructive, which is all the work that you do and are doing and the evidence that you are giving us here today. To all the witnesses, please feel free to give us your experience and input.

You talked about the importance of memory making. Do parents who experience early miscarriage and baby loss talk about that particular concept and the idea of memory making to formalise and memorialise the life that was lost?

Ms Barnes: I would say that it is for any parent, not just those who suffer early losses. When I had Noah, we had handprints and footprints and things such as that, so you have those physical memories. It is really important for families to have memories. I have nothing for Noah apart from his footprints and handprints. There is nothing else to say that he existed. We have a tree at the Billy Neill playing fields that is like his little imprint on the planet, but, everywhere else, he does not exist. For early losses, all you have are those memories, so it is really important for families to have a certificate.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): You mentioned other jurisdictions that have such a scheme. Are you aware of groups like yours in other parts of these islands that have found the scheme beneficial? Have you engaged with them, or have you heard how, if not beneficial, helpful it has been for parents in those places?

Ms Barnes: We have just heard about it in the media. We have heard people talk about how they felt when the certificate arrived through the postbox. As I said, I would get 11 certificates, so I do not know how I would feel. I suppose nobody knows how they will feel until it comes through the door. For a lot of people, it is —.

Ms Claire Gray (Forget-me-not Group): It is about having a choice —

Ms Barnes: Yes.

Ms Gray: — and an option. Not everyone will go down that route. Some people may initially decide that they cannot face it right now. The fact that you do not have to do it within five days or a certain length of time means that you can get that recognition for your little one or little ones when you feel ready.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): It is an option. You mentioned the mum who has been going to the service every year for babies who were born in the year in which I was born, 1983. She has carried that for 40-plus years. I imagine that when this is implemented — we will try to make it happen as quickly as possible with the Minister — there will be a wave of emotion among the people who get certificates.

Ms Grace Coutts (Forget-me-not Group): I know that mum personally. Having services now that were not there before has really helped her to process what happened when it was just brushed under the carpet. She had been left crying in a corridor, ignored. To have that grief acknowledged, and to have certificates on top of that, would be a recognition that she had those babies. She did not have any other children, so, according to the records, she does not have any children. It is very important.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): She would have that recognition of her children and of the fact that she is a mother. She will always be a mother. I will bring in members. Members, indicate if you would like to come in.

Ms Forsythe: Thank you all for coming. I am sorry for all your losses. This takes a lot of strength. I thank you for coming and honouring their names. You have read them into the Assembly's record through the Hansard report of this Committee session. That is a strong thing to do and a great honour to all your babies.

I will pick up on what Matthew said about the retrospective nature of the certificates, when they come in and the importance of that. Last year, during Baby Loss Awareness Week, I worked to help set up a wee local group — Mourne Little Legacies — where I live. We had a baby loss wall and added ribbons that we collected from community groups and through my office. A lot of older people came forward and had a lot of conversations with me and my staff about the taboos of the past. Some of them added their own ribbons, and some of them simply stood at the wall. Going forward, it will be important to open up that discussion. On the retrospective nature, how far back should it go?

Ms Gray: I do not think that there should be any cut-off point. I have two experiences. It was formally recognised that Matilda was born on 28 July and passed away three months later. I have both certificates for Matilda, but I was four months pregnant with Leanora; I do not have anything. However, because of Matilda, Leanora has a grave and her name is on the gravestone, but lots of people do not have that. Nowadays, we have jewellery and little things from Etsy that have all our family's names. We have the informal things. The certificates would be fabulous because our little ones' names would be in black and white on a formal document. The internet did not exist for parents, going back all those years. Some of them maybe did not even speak about the little ones. A certificate would bring that conversation to other members of their family, and it would not be belittled. There would be a physical document and the name that you chose — the name that you do not get to hear at the doctors' surgery or at a roll call — would be written in black and white. That is who they are. Therefore, not having a cut-off point would be important for those families to finally have recognition of the little one who belongs to them.

Ms Forsythe: We might be surprised by how many people come forward because, as you say, a lot will come forward from a time when it was not so much spoken about. I am conscious of the fact that in looking at this, we are looking at the language of legislation. It is black and white; it is very cold. We all know that the technical language in legislation, procedures and medical forms can cut through you. Is there any particular language, for instance, particularly around early miscarriage, that you would recommend for some of the clauses? I am concerned about that, if you have to produce a medical record, because some women will not have been to a doctor but will have had an early miscarriage.

Ms Barnes: Personally, I hate the word "miscarriage". I say, "early loss", but that is personal to me.

Ms Coutts: I have heard that many times. It makes it sound as if it was your fault — that you carried the baby wrongly.

Ms Barnes: It is so different under 24 weeks. Some of mine were six weeks and some were 21 weeks. There is a massive difference in what I went through, physically, at six weeks and what I went through at 21 weeks. Mentally, it probably was not that much different. There is a lot about language. People seem to be more conscious of language now in relation to baby loss. For me, "loss" is a better word than "miscarriage".

Ms Forsythe: Do you think that to leave it more open-ended and leaning into that compassion is a more appropriate approach to the drafting? As you said, this includes stage 3 pregnancy, which is wholly different. The last thing that you want to see is different criteria for different stages of pregnancy. That brings us back to where we are now: you get something at 24 weeks, but not before that. It is for the sake of a couple of days. I am keen to take on board any of that kind of feedback when we have this opportunity with drafting.

Ms Gray: You are exactly right. That undermines the value of that little person. The question of what box they fit into is asked, when the whole point is that that does not matter.

Ms Barnes: It is OK so long as the same language is used and there is not different language for the different boxes that they fit into. "Loss" can cover any of it; that is why I prefer the word "loss".

Ms Forsythe: Absolutely. Thank you very much. We really appreciate your coming to give evidence and helping us to shape this legislation. As a Committee, we really want to bring this forward at pace and to try to help people with the baby loss certificates. Thank you.

Dr Aiken: Speaking from my own experience, you never lose the sense of loss. Even if anybody thinks that it is not there, it still is, and the session today has triggered me a bit. Thank you very much indeed for telling us about what you have come through.

When we look at an official piece of documentation, we see that it is looking to see the medical evidence, wherever it comes from. Although such documentation has got better, the very clinical language that is sometimes used is not conducive to anyone's having good mental health or well-being. Having been there myself, I know exactly how that is.

I would like you all to give consideration to this. The early losses are the issue. Later loss is quite well documented, but early loss is just as important as later loss. It is a question of how we recognise that. If there is no medical follow-up on the rest of it, how do you think that we could do something along the lines of this: while you were talking, I was thinking about whether we could have an avenue for some form of self-certification or something like that — something that we could use. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Ms Barnes: It is difficult. For example, for some of my miscarriages, I went to the GP, and for others, I was in hospital. Others happened very early, and I was at home for them, so only my partner and I knew about them. It is difficult in that way, because we do not have medical evidence for those miscarriages. You just hope that people have a conscience and that they would not apply for a baby loss certificate if it was not applicable to them.

Dr Aiken: Thanks very much indeed.

Mr Carroll: Thanks very much for a very brave and important contribution. If it is OK, I will ask some questions about your group. When the Bill passes, you may need more people to work with the likes of yourselves and on the important work that you do. Kelly, I believe that you said, if I picked this up correctly, that you work with bereavement nurses. Is your group based in one particular trust, or are you spread out?

Ms Coutts: We are in the Ulster Hospital.

Ms Barnes: It is the South Eastern Trust. A lot of the other trusts have groups and bereavement midwives.

Ms Gray: They all have bereavement midwives now. We were the first trust to have them. I think that we were 11 years ahead in getting the first bereavement midwife in Northern Ireland, Hilary Patterson. The Forget-me-not Group bereaved parent liaison group was then set up. We were the first liaison group. We are separate from the trust, but still within it. The chairperson, treasurer and secretary roles are all held by bereaved parents so that there is not a power dynamic and so that we can say how we really feel about our experiences.

That goes back, and then we can make the changes, because we have the people there who can change the services or the language.

Mr Carroll: That sounds like a really good model. Are there groups like yours in every trust?

Ms Barnes: I am not sure whether there is one in every trust. I know that there is the Snowdrop Group.

Dr Aiken: In the Northern Trust, there is. I know the Northern Trust one quite well.

Ms Barnes: There is the Snowdrop Group in the Belfast Trust.

Dr Aiken: That is in the Belfast Trust and the Northern Trust, I think.

Ms Gray: I think that there is one in the Southern Trust. I am not 100% sure, but there are bereavement midwives in them all who have access to bereaved parents and can then link in everyone's views.

Mr Carroll: It is important to have that coming together that you provide. You are doing a great job today, but, outside of meetings such as this, it is important with the uptake of certificates that — this is not your responsibility — there are groups in place to support parents.

Kelly, you talked about the importance of having a central register. Do you want to expand on that?

Ms Barnes: I know that Scotland has a memorial book. It is about having a record of how many certificates have been provided and the details of who those have gone to. I do not know whether it is just as simple as asking parents for their consent to have their details included on a register somewhere. Losses or miscarriages are not recorded anywhere. It is said that one in four is not recorded, but it could be a lot more than that, or it could be a lot fewer than that. It is not recorded anywhere. However, if there was a register, and if money was put into research down the line, you would have the backing of figures to say, "This is how many people have been affected".

Ms Gray: For example, was it because a certain event happened? Was it to do with people living in a certain area that had environmental issues, or was it because of genetic issues in a certain community? It is things such as that. This is the time to gather that data. Anyone who has gone through it would love to have a way of trying to support research to ensure that it is not as widespread. It is about having the data available, and then it is there for someone to use.

Mr Carroll: I have written down here that it is a way to remember a loss and to prevent trauma. That is what I took from what you said about the register, Kelly. That is really important.

I have two other questions. Part of the Bill deals with making the registration a digital process. You do not have to go into any personal information or details, but, presumably, that will make a very traumatic process easier for people, because they will not have to go to a council office.

Ms Coutts: That is so positive. My daughter was stillborn, and my husband went down to register her birth and death on the same certificate. As the death came before the birth on the certificate, I just could not face it. If he had not been able to face that, what would we have done? I was really pleased to read that provision, because it gives people the option. Maybe they want to go down in person, but it is less traumatic if it can be done electronically or via the phone, and the information can then be passed to the funeral director via the registrar, rather than you, for the funeral. That is a really positive move.

Mr Carroll: This is the final point from me. The certificates are important, and I support the Bill as it is, but do you have any — "concern" is maybe the wrong word — knowledge of where there may be gaps in the services? You talked about the bereavement nurses and the important role that they provide, but are there areas in which the trusts could provide additional support?

Ms Barnes: Mental health.

Ms Coutts: Mental health.

Ms Gray: Mental health.

Mr Carroll: OK. Obviously, that issue exists now for all sorts of circumstances. I have a concern that, if many people come forward, which will be a positive thing if they want to do so, but the trusts have not put in place appropriate support, it could leave those people in a difficult position.

Ms Gray: We are already there at the minute, unfortunately. Even for people whose little ones pass away now and who are not triggered by receiving a certificate, there is, unfortunately, minimal support through counselling. Some may need to go down more of a psychology-type route, but a lot just need very specialist counselling — not a general counsellor but somebody with a real niche in baby loss. The South Eastern Trust is very positive for the mums and tries with the dads — they can go together — but there is not a service for the daddies. They are left and, unfortunately, that has an impact on relationships. We are parents to other children — the little ones coming through. All of us have found a huge gap. When Suzi and I went, we had bereavement midwife counselling, but that service is not available now. Basically, the person retired, and the position has not been refilled. There has never been anything for the dads. Matilda would be 12 now.

Ms Barnes: There is Sands and that kind of organisation. I imagine that, if there is the uptake, those organisations will probably do some kind of publicity about what services they offer. Yes, the situation regarding mental health is already dire.

Mr Carroll: It is groups such as yours and Sands — charities and volunteers — that are doing great work but get only so much funding and support.

Ms Barnes: Yes.

Miss Hargey: Thank you very much for sharing your experiences on the loss of your children whom you have mentioned. It is an emotive topic. It is not unique to women, but there is a history across the island of the disgraceful treatment of women in health and children in health, as you see when you look at the mother-and-baby homes, forced adoptions and institutional abuse, for instance. There is a legacy, and, as you said, there is still an under-resourcing of healthcare provision, access to mental health provision and other things — even the mother-and-baby unit, which is in the media this week. That goes without saying. We are looking at it from a technical point of view, but Diane's point is right: it is important that we hear the voices of parents, because we want to understand what it will look like on the ground and how it will impact on families, when it is implemented.

I have a condition, and I am prone to — I will use the medical term — miscarriages due to that medical condition. I have miscarried. The only acknowledgement that I had was the initial hospital letter for the scan. That is not to say that I know that I would want a certificate. You are right about choice and the acknowledgement for those who feel that they want it: that is critical. That is why I am interested in the time limit. I remember going to an event in Belfast City Hall — it holds an event, every year, on baby loss. I remember one woman who came for the first time — she had lost her baby in the '70s. I know a lot of mothers, in particular, who encountered a loss, where I grew up in south Belfast, but suppressed it; it was not talked about. That is part of the history and legacy of the island and how women, particularly, have been treated. They do not talk about it, but there is a change in their behaviour, maybe around the month and time. Friends of mine have talked about their parents. My mother lost her firstborn after he was born, and then she had multiple miscarriages, but she does not talk about it. There is that generation. It is key, therefore, that we look at the issue of the time limit as we move through the legislation.

I was going to ask the same question about the central register in England and Wales. We can ask for more information on that from Assembly staff.

You have an organised group. I am conscious of the fact that there are probably swathes of people who are not aware that there are support groups: they just carry on. As this progresses, there will be a need for awareness raising. The legislation that we are looking at is to give an enabling power to bring forward a scheme. The Minister has said that he will want to co-design that with people who have been directly impacted on. What do you see as the need for awareness raising as we move through this? At some point, as the scheme begins to come live or even at the design stage, we will be encouraging the Minister to engage with the Health Minister so that there is cross-departmental working. As you said, it can retraumatise; it can take people back to that point. While it is a good thing that it is being done, in that it gives that acknowledgement and choice, it is about looking at whether additional supports could be put in and making sure that they are put in over the period that it goes live. You are a support group, but, from the work that you do, do you get the sense that there are big gaps in that across the board?

Ms Gray: We are not actually a support group. We are a bereaved parents liaison group.

Miss Hargey: Right.

Ms Gray: We are a bit different from Sands, say, which has support meetings. Our group is all about trying to get change in the service and supporting parents with the remembrance service and wreath-making. We come together for events. We are very much about getting change, but we happen to support each other while we do that. Sands is the main support group.

Ms Barnes: When the certificates are sent out, not necessarily a leaflet but even a page could be put in with it that has a list of organisations that offer support. I would not take exception to that happening, if I got the certificate through the post.

Ms Gray: It is different in different areas. I think that Sands is in every area, but I do not know how often it has meetings.

Ms Barnes: Some areas have local groups that are in only the local area, whereas Sands is more widespread.

I do not see there being a problem with putting a leaflet or page in with the certificate to say what support services are available.

Miss Hargey: Up to now we have been calling it the "baby loss certificate". Going back to the fact that, as you said, language can be important to how people view it, do you agree with that general term?

Ms Barnes: Yes.

Ms Gray: Yes.

Ms Coutts: Yes.

Miss Hargey: Thank you for that; I appreciate it.

Mr Tennyson: I add my sympathy to all of you for the losses that you have experienced and my thanks to you for sharing personal testimony and shining a light on an issue on which, as Deirdre said, there has been too much silence for far too long. That is deeply appreciated, and I am sure that everybody agrees that the evidence so far has been really useful. It has made me think of a few issues that I had not fully considered in advance of the session.

My first question goes back to basics and relates to the certificate. You touched on the issue of language in response to Diane. Is there anything specific that you would like to see reflected in the content or appearance of the certificate as part of a scheme?

Ms Barnes: It needs to look reasonably official, like a birth certificate. There needs to be space for the baby's name and where the baby was born. That needs to be "if applicable", so that you do not necessarily have to fill in those sections. That is the case even for the dates. Some will have dates of birth for babies under 24 weeks; others may not know the exact date. I think that it should be quite similar to a birth certificate.

Ms Gray: It should be flexible in the information that is to be entered into it.

Mr Tennyson: Yes, of course.

Deirdre may have touched on this. Claire mentioned that every family is different and may want different things. I have reflected on how best we can communicate the fact that the certificate is available — that it is an option. If somebody has experienced a loss, how can we best raise with those families the fact that the option exists? Is it that their GP can let them know that it is an option, if they are aware of the loss, or is it about having a broader awareness campaign? How can we best communicate to those who are affected that the option is there for them, should they wish to avail themselves of it?

Ms Barnes: If someone has the loss in a hospital, the bereavement midwives can give them advice. Leaflets could be left in hospital waiting rooms.

Ms Gray: Do you know the book that a person is given when they find out that they are pregnant?

Mr Tennyson: Yes.

Ms Gray: It could be at the back of that book. There is a section that deals with losing your baby, so it is not that they are running from tackling that. That information could be in that section of the book to let people know. Additionally, the campaign has been in the media to highlight the fact that this is happening. I suppose that, when it does happen — soon — a lot of information about it will be put in the media.

Ms Coutts: There is still not a lot there. I have a friend who miscarried — for want of a better term — or had a loss in January. I told her what I am doing today, and she said, "Does that mean that I get one too? I could cry. Thank you for doing this". She was not aware that that could happen, and that was just this year, so a lot of people will still not know about this.

Ms Barnes: If it is implemented, it is probably down to GPs and the bereavement midwives to push it forward, and, hopefully, people who have had ones previously will become aware of it through the likes of remembrance services. We can certainly put leaflets out, and we have social media as well. I imagine that Sands will probably do some kind of social media campaign.

Ms Gray: The Miscarriage Association.

Mr Tennyson: Absolutely.

This is my final question. Given your understanding of the Bill and the engagement that you have had on it, is there anything in particular that you want to draw to the Committee's attention? Are there any amendments that, you think, the Committee should be thinking about as we go about our work?

Ms Coutts: This is the briefing thing at the end; it is not actually part of the Bill, sure it is not? We just did not like the words at the end. What was it saying?

Dr Aiken: The explanatory memorandum.

Ms Coutts: "Often a difficult moment in time" or —.

Ms Gray: "A significant moment".

Ms Coutts: "Significant or difficult moment". We thought that that was quite throwaway.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Do you know whether that was in the explanatory memorandum or the Bill itself?

Ms Coutts: The last sentence in the briefing, yes. Again, it is about the wording. In our lives, this affects us day in, day out. The loss of my child affects every area of my life. It is not a "difficult moment" in my life. It is everything. It has affected every part of me. "Distressing" is a good word.

Ms Gray: We all picked up on that.

Ms Coutts: Yes, all of us said it.

Ms Gray: That is one word. You talked about the language. You could even have bereaved parents cast their eye over everything. Everyone is so different, but we were all united on that one. Somebody might find something OK and acceptable, whereas another person might not, but having a range of people cast their eyes over the language and how that feels would be so beneficial. If you are able to do that, that would be wonderful.

Ms Barnes: Yes.

Mr Tennyson: That is really helpful. If it is in the explanatory memorandum, it is definitely something that we can look at as a Committee. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): No one else has indicated that they wish to ask a question, so, before we conclude the session, I want to give you the opportunity to share any further observations and experiences. You can, of course, follow up in writing. This process is going on for another few weeks, so you can tell us about any other thoughts that occur to you. Do you want to give us any other feedback?

Ms Coutts: To be honest, I do not know whether this is still the case, but when I got my certificate for Rosa being stillborn, it was not a birth to me. It was horrendous that her death and her birth were on the same page. I have not looked at it since that day. I cannot even begin to realise the pain that Kelly has that her child Noah and all her other children do not have any recognition. I am, for want of a better word, lucky to have that form, but the fact that the death and birth are recorded on the same page is traumatic to me. I know that I must not be the only one.

Ms Gray: Yes, it is distressing, and that just makes it more distressing. Suzi, you are the same.

Ms Suzi Gourley (Forget-me-not Group): I remember being totally confused when mine came home and he had only one certificate. I did not know. I was blind to it, and I was so confused.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I can imagine. That is something else that we can focus on. It is related but not directly covered by the Bill. We can follow up on that with the registrar.

Ms Barnes: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): No one else has indicated that they want to ask a question. At this stage, I just want to say thank you so much for giving us evidence and sharing your experiences. Obviously, it has been very difficult for all of you, but you are so brave and are turning extraordinary trauma into something very positive and constructive. Thank you for your evidence. Committee members who have shared their own experience and their own hurt have all found it useful, as legislators but also as human beings. Thank you very much for coming and talking to us. Keep in touch.

Ms Barnes: Thank you for having us.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): Thank you very much. We will follow up on those points.