Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We are joined this morning by Ellie-May O'Connell, who is a deaf young person. You are very welcome, Ellie-May. Ellie-May's mum, Bronagh, is also joining us. You are also very welcome, Bronagh. Gemma McMullan is joining us. Gemma is the mother of a young deaf child, George, who is 26 months, I think: is that correct, Gemma?

Ms Gemma McMullan (Action Deaf Youth): Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Julie Graham is director of services at Action Deaf Youth (ADY) and is joining us for the briefing. You are all very welcome to the Committee for Communities this morning. Thank you for your attendance today.

I understand and members will know that Gemma and Ellie-May are here to provide some evidence from lived experience rather than particular legislative expertise. That is hugely important to us, so thank you for that. I also understand that Julie will make a brief opening statement on behalf of Action Deaf Youth before we move on to questions from members. Julie, if you are content, please go ahead, and we will then come to questions.

Ms Julie Graham (Action Deaf Youth): Good morning, everyone. We are absolutely thrilled to be here today to engage in the discussion on the Sign Language Bill. This is a momentous occasion for us. We know that the issue was introduced in New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) back in 2020 and that, after the past five years, we have now got to this stage. It is hard to believe that we have managed to get here, halfway through the decade. It is just amazing. First, I express our sincere appreciation to all those who have done all the hard work in the background to enable us to get here today, especially those in our local deaf community, who have contributed a lot to the process; to the sign language partnership group; and to the Department for Communities, which, we know, has worked substantially in the background.

The Bill represents a life-changing opportunity for those of us who live in Northern Ireland, specifically deaf children in Northern Ireland. I am delighted to be here today to share our experience with the Committee. I am the director of service delivery and development in ADY. You can see that I am deaf. I am very pleased to have alongside me today Ellie-May, who is a young person, and two parents. I will let them introduce themselves.

Ms McMullan: My name is Gemma McMullan, My son's name is George, and he is 26 months old, which is not very old. He is moderately deaf. He was identified as deaf when he was eight weeks old. We have been learning sign language and have been signing with George since he was five months old. I am very happy to be here today.

Ms Ellie-May O'Connell (Action Deaf Youth): Hiya, my name is Ellie-May O'Connell. My sign name is this — because of my curly hair. I am 13, and I go to school in Victoria College. It is a mainstream school. I am profoundly deaf, and I have been using British Sign Language (BSL) since I was very small.

Ms Bronagh O'Connell (Action Deaf Youth): Hello, my name is Bronagh O'Connell. Ellie-May is my daughter. She was diagnosed deaf when she was two. When she was four, we started to attend Action Deaf Youth, which is when we started our journey with BSL and total communication for Ellie-May. I have studied BSL up to level 4, which is the equivalent of a HNC or level 4 NVQ. Thank you so much.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Bronagh and Ellie-May.

You are really welcome here today.

We, as an institution, really benefit from hearing young people's voices and experiences. I know that you have had your own unique journey and experience with sign language. It would be really useful and helpful if you could share some of your experience of sign language throughout your life, particularly since moving into grammar school. What are your thoughts on sign language? How has it changed, and what would you like to see happen in the future?

Ms E O'Connell: Signing has been really helpful for me in communicating with people. It is just amazing to have another language that I can understand. When I do not want to talk or wear my cochlear implants, I can just sign to talk to my family. If I want to have a private conversation with my mum, I can just sign without anyone knowing. In school, I have a classroom assistant, who is also deaf. I am very pleased to have a deaf assistant who understands what I am going through as a deaf girl in a mainstream school surrounded by all the hearing people. It is really easy for me to talk to my assistant when there is a problem at school or at home. I can just talk to her, and she can help me to solve all my problems. All the work that she has done in the past two years to help me do my schoolwork has been just amazing. I am just very pleased to have her.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you. I should just warn you that we have all had some sign language lessons, so be careful: we might understand. I think that you are safe enough, to be honest. [Laughter.]

I do not think that we have quite got there. Thank you for that.

I have one quick last question for you, Ellie-May. You have that support in school, but, in broader society, when you are out at the shops or out socialising, what challenges do you have, and how might things improve to make sure that those challenges are removed?

Ms E O'Connell: Sorry, I do not understand your question.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): In your school, people are probably very aware of the fact that you are deaf. When you go into shops and places like that, do you find it more difficult? Do you find that there is a lack of understanding of your needs, because they are not visible and are not something that people know about?

Ms E O'Connell: When I am shopping, it is not really difficult for me — well, it just depends. If there is music in the background, it is very difficult for me to hear my parents talking. Hearing sounds is very difficult, but I do hear them a bit better. My mum does sign language when there is music in the background or when I do not understand her questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Ellie-May.

I will go to Julie and then to members. Julie, we have heard from previous witnesses about the importance of the early years, how those years are crucial to language learning and the risks of language deprivation. Let's Play and Grow is clearly working hard to fill that space. Are legislation, societal awareness or a combination of both the best way of ensuring the widest possible support for young people? What are your thoughts on that?

Ms Graham: Absolutely. I agree that, while there is generally more awareness in society now, we all know that, for every child, early language acquisition is crucial. The key stage of development is from birth up to five years old. There is very clear research that shows that, for deaf children, it is actually from nought to three years old. Those first three years of life are absolutely crucial in that child's development. Research indicates that, if a deaf child has access to sign language in those very early years until they are three years old, it does not matter what they do later in acquiring or not acquiring speech. The initial access to language in those first three years of life, specifically to sign language, has the biggest impact on their later development. That is what most influences their later trajectory through life. That early language acquisition goes on to affect literacy, reduced incidence of mental health issues, better educational outcomes and employment opportunities, which is related to educational opportunities. That is what creates the best outcome: those first three years of life. That is why, as an organisation, we have worked really hard to develop the structures that put those services in for very young children, because that is where the biggest impact can and does happen. That is now evidenced through research.

My response to your question is that the Bill has the potential to create a better focus on those early years, because, if we can change the experience in the early years, we can change the trajectory for those children and young people and on into their adult life. In my briefing paper, you will have noted my suggestions of what we would like to see. I am sure that you have had the opportunity to explore them already. That is what we are looking for in early years provision.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Julie.

Ms K Armstrong: Gemma, you are learning sign language in order to be able to communicate with your son and help him. What is access like at the moment for sign language for the wider family?

Ms McMullan: Our family unit consists of me, George and his dad, Dean. When we were told that George was deaf, we were advised that hearing aids were what he would get first and foremost. There was no mention of sign language as an option. We were told, "This is how we are going to fix George's hearing problem." We were sent home with no guidance, no information on charities and no leaflets — nothing. For the wider family circle, there has basically been nothing. We have been teaching our families sign language. ADY offers sign language for grandparents, and the only access that they will get to that is through that charity. As parents, we were given no guidance on or support for sign language at all. There was not an alternative language. We were told, "You will get hearing aids for George. That will fix his hearing, and he will live a life without any sign language. We hope that the Bill will change that.

Ms K Armstrong: So do we. Hearing from you and others with lived experience confirms that a key element of the Bill is ensuring that training is available for families. You highlighted something that others raised with us, which is that, in the health system, there is not an automatic recognition that sign language as communication is as valuable as every other support mechanism.

Ms McMullan: Yes, definitely.

Ms K Armstrong: The Bill does not require sign language to be introduced at diagnosis. That is something that we can perhaps take forward.

I would like to turn to Ellie-May now. Thank you so much for coming today, Ellie-May. Going through mainstream school with an interpreter has been a wonderful experience for you, but what happens if your interpreter goes on holiday or is not well? Is there a replacement whom you can call on? How does that work?

Ms E O'Connell: In my school, we have two classroom assistants who know sign language — BSL. One of them is hearing, and, of course, my classroom assistant, who is deaf, knows BSL. When my assistant is on holiday and I do not have that specific classroom assistant, the man who is in charge of all the classroom assistants in my school reorganises that and makes sure that I have a good classroom assistant who knows sign language and is aware of deaf people. I have her, and she is really good. When my assistant is ill, it just depends on what days. If it is maybe only for one day, I would be fine. It depends on what subjects I have in my classes. If I have a difficult day with all my subjects, I have her to help me with all my work and to make sure that I have good support.

Ms K Armstrong: Are any classes or anything provided in your school so that your friends or other teachers can learn sign language?

Ms E O'Connell: When my assistant is talking to other people in my class, she really tries to teach the class to learn sign language. It is very difficult for them, however, because they forget. It is very difficult for me to communicate, because they do not know what to do. Even though they have deaf awareness, they might be a little bit shy and do not know whether they are going to use the right words or the wrong words. I really want them and some of my teachers to learn just the basics of sign language so that they can communicate with me. I really want that in my school.

Ms K Armstrong: When you are travelling to and from school, do you get a bus?

Ms E O'Connell: No. I live close to school, so I walk.

Ms K Armstrong: Lucky you — or maybe not lucky you, because you cannot be late then.

Bronagh, I will come to you as a parent. When your child is diagnosed, you want the best possible for them. As a parent, has anything really surprised you, taken you aback or shocked you about the life of a young person who has hearing impairments or is deaf that needs to be improved and that we should think about?

Ms B O'Connell: Ellie had a late diagnosis: she was not diagnosed until she was two. Julie talked about the language deficit between nought and three, and Ellie had two years without language. Thinking back on it, we were very lucky to meet people along our way who signposted various organisations and things that we could meet up with. We initially had a teacher of the deaf who was all for total communication, which uses sign and voice at the same time, and I think that that saved us. Anecdotally, we know from speaking to other parents that, as Gemma said, that was never signposted to them. Everything was to be oral.

Having the ability to start very basic signing with Ellie when she was two really started our communication. Before that, we could not communicate with Ellie, because we did not know that she was profoundly deaf. To see her develop so quickly with the sign language was amazing. A lot of people said that we should not sign and speak at the same time because it would not work, but, with the sign, she was able to attach language, and her spoken language then improved. Her sign language is still better than her spoken language, especially her written language, but doing that meant that there was an avenue of true communication with us.

She really blossomed when we went to Action Deaf Youth when she was four and I had the opportunity to learn alongside her. We had the opportunity for the British Deaf Association (BDA) to do home sign language with us, and we had the grandparents, her two brothers and my husband there. That was a six-week course, but it was not tailored to a child's needs. It was, "What do you want to learn?", and I said, "I don't know. I want to learn everything". Although the idea was good, it could have been more structured. Going into Action Deaf Youth, I learned the sign language that pertained to a young person, and that helped me to help her to acquire language by using big picture books showing a shirt, for example. It reflected how a two-year-old would learn language. At four, she was doing that and was attaching language to sign. That has continued throughout her life, and that is why she still has a signing communications support worker in school.

The most shocking and most fearful thing for me is knowing how bright my daughter is. I feel that, in mainstream education, she will not have the same access as her peers. Statistics show that deaf young people will perform worse at their GCSEs etc. It is about having to advocate for her all the time. You advocate for your child anyway, but you have to advocate in a more stringent way, I suppose. We have to do that extra work at home to make sure that she is catching up. Her school journey is much harder with regard to getting her qualifications. I know that she can be anything and anybody she wants. I have learnt that through going to Action Deaf Youth and from all the deaf role models that she has had around her.

There are also her social struggles with friendship groups. I know that young people will always have that difficulty as they grow up, but it is harder for her. Again, it is about deaf awareness and the ability to have true communication. If the Sign Language Bill becomes law and if there is a strong foundation for young people at the beginning with language acquisition, that will help their life chances and benefit the community as a whole, because people will feel included. What I am trying to say is that there is not full inclusion.

Ms K Armstrong: I have a final question for Julie. I have a massive concern that, when the Bill becomes law, we will not have enough interpreters to meet all the needs of the people who need interpreters, be that in health, education, travel or whatever. How long do you think it will take Northern Ireland to upskill enough interpreters to make the Bill worthwhile?

Ms Graham: I believe that clause 10 addresses the areas of accreditation and increasing the pool of sign language interpreters and sign language teachers. I know that it is in the Bill. I suggest that clauses 3 and 4 also address that. The Bill refers to "prescribed organisations", and we are assuming that they are public services. I assume that education organisations will be among those prescribed bodies. ADY feels that education is crucial for our deaf children and young people and that needs to be highlighted more. There needs to be a focus on that, and it needs to be referenced much more strongly, because that will transform deaf children's lives. There will be better educational opportunities and outcomes for them, and that will change everything, more than bringing in more interpreters will. We really need to go back to the foundational structures that are in place to address those issues.

I have put forward some suggestions about what could be the start of a journey. One example is that, in Northern Ireland, we are quite different from the rest of the UK, because we already have a structure and model for Irish-medium schools, and we know what that looks like. In the long term, could we look at having a similar structure and model for a sign language school? That is an option, but I appreciate that that is for the longer term. We also appreciate that this is the start of a journey, and we do not expect things to be changed instantly, but I reinforce the need to address education, because that will give the likes of George and Ellie-May more choices. Hearing children have choice when it comes to education: why do deaf children not have that same choice? That is my strong recommendation.

Ms K Armstrong: The types of qualifications for sign language teachers will be based on regulation, and there is no timescale in the Bill for introducing regulations. Should we ask for a timescale for regulations to be made?

Ms Graham: Timescales are useful, of course. I am not from a legal background, so I do not necessarily understand the procedures around this, but I trust that the Assembly and DFC would know how best to work that out. Having a timescale in place would definitely be useful, however.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you all so much.

Mr Kingston: Thank you all for your attendance today. Thank you, Julie, for your briefing paper. Our purpose is to examine the wording in the Bill, and it is helpful that you have set out specific suggestions and recommendations whereby we can seek to change and improve the wording. Thank you, Gemma, for your personal testimony in the papers that we received. Ellie-May, you are a great example of total communication, about which we hear others talk.

One of the comments in your paper, Julie, is that many deaf adults wish that they had attended a deaf school, yet you say that 77% attend a mainstream school. When we have asked about that before, we have always been told that, ultimately, there should be choice. Did you consider that, Ellie-May? Julie and Ellie-May, can you share more of your thoughts on that? When young people and their families are weighing up choices, is there enough provision in mainstream schools and specialist deaf schools? Is Jordanstown School the only such school in Northern Ireland? Is there just the one specialist school in Northern Ireland?

Ms Graham: There is just the one. As a deaf person, I will share a bit of my life experience. I became deaf at seven. I got meningitis and became deaf. At first, I went to a mainstream school in Bangor that had a deaf unit: a partial hearing unit (PHU). I am sure that you have heard of mainstream schools with deaf units. That unit has now closed down, but it is where I initially started my education and where I stayed until primary 7. When considering where to go to secondary school, I visited various schools here, but I wanted to go to a deaf school, so I went to England, where there is a deaf grammar school at which deaf students board. I had a choice, and that is the choice that I made. Ellie-May has been on a very different journey from mine. Ellie-May, do you want to talk about how you made the decision to go to Victoria College?

Ms E O'Connell: First, I went to St Bride's Primary School, which was a really good school. It had amazing accessibility for me to enjoy my life at primary school. I went to St Bride's from nursery all the way up to P7. When I finished there, I went to see other schools. I did not do the transfer test. I did practice tests but not the actual test, and there were two schools that would accept my scores. I got into Victoria College Belfast. Victoria is a good school. Both my schools have been good schools for me. St Bride's and Victoria have given me an amazing way to enjoy my life in school and pick the right subjects for me so that I understand and do not get confused or have to take a step back and not enjoy my life.

I would, however, like the school to encourage more people to learn sign language and maybe set up a club where they can learn so that, when they meet deaf people who are in their friendship group, deaf people who are at a different school or deaf people outside of the home or wherever, they can practise and learn. That would be really good for me and would mean that, when I am not wearing my cochlear implants, I could communicate with them.

Mr Kingston: It is helpful to hear the two different approaches. The choice should be provided. That is what we have heard.

Julie, I will address some of your comments. Clause 2(2)(b) refers to ensuring the availability of classes:

We have heard from others about the importance of having that opportunity as soon as possible. We have also heard some people talk about the reluctance of some adults to teach sign language, because they think that it might discourage spoken language.

We have commented before that there needs to be stronger wording to ensure that learning sign language is not delayed and is available at the earliest opportunity.

I think that we are all dissatisfied with the reference to consultation in clause 5. For any future changes through regulations, clause 5(3)(b) states that the Department must consult:

How can the wording be improved? You referred to establishing a sign language partnership group or a national advisory group, as is the case in GB. Can you comment on that? Who should be involved in the consultation? Having one group or one person seems too weak.

Ms Graham: I cannot comment on how you change the wording of the Bill from a legal perspective, but we need to look at our goal. Our goal is to create legislation that works in practice and that, when it becomes law, will transform the lives of and the opportunities for deaf children and young people in Northern Ireland. That is what we are working towards. Those being consulted should be the people who have experience and skills in the area. For me, it is important that deaf children and young people be included in the process. That is what we need to see as the principle that we are aiming to achieve.

Mr Kingston: It is definitely an area that needs improvement, and we will seek to do that.

Clause 11 defines the members of the deaf community: to me, it is really the sign language community. This is the Sign Language Bill, but, if people do not use sign language, they are not included in the definition of the deaf community. You made the point that we need to include deaf children and the parents of deaf children. The Bill needs to include everyone who sees themselves as part of the deaf community.

Ms Graham: We strongly advocate that clause 11, which already specifies certain groups, should also incorporate an assurance that all deaf children and young people will be represented. The Committee has heard from Gemma and Bronagh that, so often, access to sign language for deaf children depends on signposting, which is currently not given. Without signposting, how do you access the information if it is not given to you? That is not the Bill's fault, but we must have that as a foundational point for deaf children at the point of diagnosis. If we do, every deaf child will be included, but we have to ensure that the Bill is inclusive of every deaf child and every family with a deaf member, and that may need to be spelt out a little more clearly, because parents are part of it. Parents need to be empowered to feel that they are part of what is going on, because, for every child, language starts at home. The family is a key part of the child's journey, and that is why we advocate those amendments in order to bring in those two points.

Mr Kingston: Yes. What you say relates to the earlier point about the promotion of sign language so that even deaf people who have not yet taken up the opportunity to learn it should be recognised. They are part of the deaf community and therefore should always be encouraged to learn sign language. You made the point that the earlier that that happens, the better. Otherwise, they will have language deprivation.

I have asked all my questions, unless anybody wants to add anything.

Ms McMullan: I will pick up on the point that you made about education. If courses were available, picking a school would probably be less frightening for parents, because, ultimately, it is parents, not the children, who pick the primary school. At the minute, I have chosen not to send George to pre-preschool, because I know that, more than likely, no one will not be able to communicate with him using sign language. I have therefore put off sending him to pre-preschool. Even in picking his nursery school, if I knew that even a six-week course were available for his nursery teacher, I would feel much calmer sending him to nursery and then on to primary school. If I knew that his teachers would have access to such a course, that would make me much calmer when deciding what school to send him to. I know, however, that, at the minute, that is not an option. That puts a lot more pressure on parents. Where will they send their child? Do they send them to a deaf unit, in the knowledge that their children will have access to sign language there? Do they send them to a mainstream school and hope that their children will get a classroom assistant who can sign? I just wanted to add that.

Ms B O'Connell: I will add something. Ellie talked about her primary school and how great it was. Her teacher of the deaf created a little deaf hub. There were maybe five deaf children in her school. Her nursery-school teacher taught herself sign, and that helped Ellie when she was in nursery. Then there were the deaf children throughout her school, so there was always that support, because she was not the only one. The school also invited in Action Deaf Youth to work with her class on teaching sign. I think that that is done in Cregagh Primary School as well: is that right?

Ms Graham: Yes.

Ms B O'Connell: There is a six- to eight-week course or something similar.

It is all about inclusion. Everybody felt that they were together and that there was no difference between them. When children go to secondary school, the situation becomes more stark. It is more rigid, with lessons and timetables, and there is not the freedom that primary schools have to invite in people. Ellie is the only deaf child in her school, so she feels a lot of pressure. She feels that she is an outsider sometimes, and she has spoken about that before.

Julie said that she went to school in England. As parents, we have to make that decision: do we send our child away to a boarding school in England? Can we not keep her at home? We made the decision to keep her at home. This thought is always in the back of our minds: if she starts to underperform, do we need to make that decision? Why should we send our deaf children to England to be educated? Why can they not be educated in Northern Ireland? If there were a boarding school up the road or wherever, we would be able to visit her and have her home at weekends, but who else needs to send their child away to get an education?

Mr Bradley: Thank you very much for your presentation. As I have said before in Committee, there should be something in the curriculum to teach non-deaf children sign language so that they, in turn, can communicate with a deaf person who is at their primary school. I emphasise that that must be done at primary school, because, at that age, children's brains are like sponges. They will take in that type of learning very quickly, which will help them communicate.

My question is for Ellie. Had there been some sort of sign language education in primary school, would that have made your journey a more pleasant experience? If you had had hearing children growing up with you in that primary-school setting who could communicate with you through sign language, would that have helped? Perhaps some of them would have gone on with you to post-primary school. Is that a hard question?

Ms E O'Connell: Yes, it is a hard question; I do not know how to answer it.

I am in a hearing school. I would like to have more deaf people in my school. I would not really mind what year they were in; I would just like to have someone to hang out with who could understand me and with whom I could communicate. I am the only deaf kid in Victoria College, and I do not know how to manage that. In my primary school, it was really simple for me, because I had a deaf girl in the year below me whom I was able to hang out with every day. If I could do that, I would be delighted, because I could communicate with someone and they would understand what I am going through. I am the only deaf girl in my class, and, for the whole day, I have no one else to hang out with. In Victoria, it is really difficult for me. It is really hard for me to manage it as a deaf girl. I encourage more people in my school to do sign classes, maybe during lunchtime or whenever. With someone who could understand me, I would be able to have fun and be myself. When I am around hearing people, it is really hard for me to be myself; I cannot manage it.

Mr Bradley: There should be some sort of sign language education in mainstream primary schools so that all children can learn it. That would help those who have a hearing impairment to communicate socially with those who do not. It also might set a pathway for children to be interpreters when they grow up. It is crucial that we do something. We need to do it in an educational setting, at primary-school level. If all people grow up together, they can learn to communicate, even if it is only partially. That may help people like you, Ellie, and help others who can hear to understand a bit better the problems that those who cannot hear encounter.

Ms Graham: What Ellie-May is emphasising very well is that it is not just about other people being able to sign; it is about deaf children and deaf young people being with other deaf children and deaf young people and having peers who are just like them. We all need people with whom we can identify and people who are like us. That is a really important point that Ellie-May is reinforcing. She is talking a lot about that. Gemma is probably also concerned about George growing up without deaf peers in the classroom.

Ms McMullan: Had we not gone to Action Deaf Youth, I do not think that we would have encountered another deaf child until now. I know George is only two, but we definitely would not have encountered another deaf child in that time, so it is nice to be part of that community. I will give an example. When we were at one of the play sessions, we saw a girl who refused to wear her hearing aids. She then saw a doll wearing hearing aids and ended up keeping hers in because she saw that. It is nice to be part of that community and be involved with other deaf young people.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): If you can see it, you can be it.

Gemma, I was struck by something that you said at the start of your evidence: you said that the medical system was working to fix George. It is about valuing people. It is about that rich culture, which is unique and worthwhile. That has huge value, and there is a lot to share in that regard.

Ellie-May, you are doing more than well in representing people with hearing difficulties.

Mr Bradley: Chair, in one of the many junior football teams that I played for over the years, there were two neighbours; one had hearing difficulties, and the other one did not. The chap who played football had not taken any formal classes but had learned sign language from his neighbour, and they communicated very well. It was amazing to see them communicating so quickly. That is where I am coming from. He learned that at a very young age, and that helps.

Thanks for everything, Ellie-May. I wish you well for the future.

Ms Mulholland: Hi, Ellie-May. My name is Sian.

Hopefully, I got that right. Thank you so much for coming here today. I think that you are class. I know that it is really tiring to just be a teenager, and you are carrying everything else at the same time. Also, not many teenagers would be sitting in the Senate Chamber of the Northern Ireland Assembly giving evidence to a Committee, so you should be incredibly proud of yourself. Hopefully, I got the signing right; if I did not, forgive me.

If you were a world leader for the day, what would you put in place to make it better for people like you?

Ms E O'Connell: Sorry, I do not really understand the question.

Ms Mulholland: If you were in charge, what would you change tomorrow to make things better for deaf children? If you were in our position, what would you put in the Bill?

Ms E O'Connell: That is a hard question, and I do not really know how to answer it.

Ms Mulholland: I can come back to you. You can have a wee think, and I will come back to you: is that OK?

Ms E O'Connell: Yes.

Ms Mulholland: I would love to know what you would like to see us putting in the Bill that either would have made your life a bit easier or that would make your life a bit easier now. I would love to hear that. Do not worry: I will not put you on the spot.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Ellie-May, if an answer to that question occurs to you, as with any other witnesses, you can give it to us in writing. Please consider that.

Ms Mulholland: No pressure. I just think that your voice is one of the most important voices that we can hear.

Gemma, my goodness me: it is exceptional and incredible that you learnt sign language postpartum. It just shows that the mummy bear comes into play.

Ms McMullan: You fight for your children.

Ms McMullan: Absolutely. It might not necessarily be something that we can put in the Bill, but it would be really important to hear about the emotional support that there was for your family at the time of the diagnosis?

Ms McMullan: I will probably cry if I say.

Ms Mulholland: OK. Sorry.

Ms McMullan: No. Come back to me.

Ms Mulholland: No problem. The Chair said that the approach is that it is something to fix, but what has come across really clearly from Ellie-May and you is that it is much more than a medical condition; it is an identity and a holistic issue. I hope that that is reflected in the Bill.

Julie, I now come to you now. Hopefully, I will not put anyone on the spot or upset them. How can we ensure that the voices of children and young people are meaningfully represented on the likes of the national advisory group or the sign language partnership group? How do we make sure that they are at the heart of those bodies?

Ms Graham: That is something that needs to be considered, because, as you have seen today, adults talking on behalf of children is not as good. That is why ADY brought Ellie-May and the parents here today. The Bill is about empowering deaf sign language users to speak up for themselves rather than having people talk on their behalf. That is why I wanted to make sure that Ellie-May was here today. We need to create a system that ensures that they have input throughout.

Little deaf children also have a very strong voice that needs to be heard. Even our very young deaf children can contribute to the process. How we do it will obviously be very different. We need to be creative, but it is something that needs to be given due thought. The deaf children who come to ADY can tell us what they want very clearly. George is only two, and he can tell you what he wants. They all have their way of doing it. Those ways may be different, but we need to find a way to capture their voices.

Ms Mulholland: I was a youth worker before I became an MLA, and my work was about bringing young people to the table in a meaningful way. In my experience as an MLA, the engagement that we have with the young people who are heart of our decisions can sometimes be poor. When you add an extra layer, whether the young person is deaf or has lived experience of something, that is even more challenging. That is a key point, which is why I wanted to ask about it.

You can write to us, Gemma.

Ms McMullan: No, I think that I am ready.

You probably read in my blog posts that, when we were told that George was deaf, we were feeling worry, guilt and whatever other emotions you feel, but, when I got in contact with Julie, she wrote, "Congratulations on your baby. You have to remember—". Sorry.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Take your time, Gemma. No rush.

Ms McMullan: "You have to remember their deafness does not define them". We need to support them as best we can, and the Bill will really help to do that.

Ms Mulholland: Thank you so much for sharing that. I am really sorry.

Ms McMullan: To answer your question, there was no emotional support apart from when we got in contact with the charity. There was no support in the hospital at all. The consultant was in and out in a minute and said, "He will be fitted for hearing aids. All the best. Goodbye. This is your baby. Off you go". There was no emotional support whatever, especially from the consultant. I hope that that answers your question.

Ms Mulholland: It absolutely does. That shows the importance of the community and voluntary sector filling those gaps and offering that support.

Ellie-May, please come back to us and write to us. I am really jealous that you have a secret language with your mum. Being able to say things without everybody else knowing is a bit of a superpower. Thank you so much.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. Thank you, everyone. If there are no more questions, members, I will thank all of you.

Julie, the remarkable work that you are doing to fill the gap, which we are now trying to fill by providing proper support and proper legislation, has been clear throughout the session. Thank you for holding —

Mr Kingston: Would you mind, Chair, if I asked a question?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Go ahead.

Mr Kingston: Ellie-May, your spoken English is very good. You are able to hear through the cochlear implant. Are there circumstances in which it is difficult for you to communicate when you use the cochlear implant? I think of group situations in which lots of people are talking. Are there circumstances in which it is easier for you to communicate through sign language than through the implant and the spoken word? In which situations do you prefer to use sign language rather than rely on the spoken word and the implant?

Ms O'Connell: During school time, if I did not have my cochlear implants in or they died and I did not have the batteries with me, I would love the teachers to be able maybe to do basic sign language. I could say to them, "My cochlear implants have died, and I do not have the batteries with me". I would love for them to learn a little bit of sign so that, when they are talking, I would not be concentrating on lip-reading but concentrating more on their facial expressions and body movements and the way that their hands are going. If I said, "My cochlear implants are dead", I would love for the teachers to be able to do a bit of sign or write things on the board and maybe draw some pictures. Then, I would know what they were talking about. When it comes to PowerPoint presentations, they do not add any pictures. I really want them to add pictures, because, if there is a word that I do not understand and my classroom assistant is not in or at the back of the room, I am like, "What does that word mean? I don't understand". If I could look at a picture, it would make more sense, and I would go, "Right, I know what they are talking about". It is just very difficult for me. I want the teachers to know sign language so that I can understand them a little more. That would make it easier for me to communicate.

Group work is very difficult, because of the background noise — everyone is talking and talking. It is still a bit difficult when we go outside, because my group will still be talking over one another. I want them to talk one at a time and face me, make the lighting better and turn off the music and everything to make things quieter. However, they do not do that, which makes it really difficult. If I ask, "What are you talking about?", they will tell me but not in a nice way; they talk in a rude way. I feel offended and as if they do not want me to be included. I want them to be more open to knowing sign language so that my friends and I can have a conversation without anyone knowing. If I was having a problem with something, I would just tell them, but, if I have to say, "What are you saying?", it is really difficult. I would love a way to do that.

Mr Kingston: It is important to hear that the implant does not benefit every situation. It is not the solution to enabling your proper communication.

Ms E O'Connell: People think that people with cochlear implants can hear everything and that they can hear again, but that is not it. I can hear but not as well as a hearing person. I still have to have things repeated. I do not like it when people turn their backs to me and talk. Then, if I sign, they are like, "Can you not hear?". When they hear me talking, people say, "You can hear", but that is not it. It is not as if I do not talk — I do — but it is annoying when people do not think in the way that the deaf community thinks. It is just not right.

Mr Kingston: Thank you.

Ms K Armstrong: Ellie-May, I love you. When my hearing aids are out, I do not hear the same as everyone else, and the noise is dull. Nobody else understands that. I get it. Thank you very much for bringing that up in Committee, because it is hard for me to explain to everyone what it is like to live with moderate hearing loss and how tiring it is to try to read lips, hear people, understand the words and deal with noise, bad lighting and bad lip-reading — all of that. Thank you for making that so real. I will put my hearing aids back in now, because I cannot hear very well.

Mr McCrossan: A lot of the questions have been covered. We are hugely in support of the Bill. It is reassuring to hear how it will directly impact on and benefit all of your lives. We deeply appreciate your being with us.

Ellie-May, you are the most inspiring young person I have met in my time as an elected representative. You should be very proud of yourself, and your family should be very proud of you. What you have done today is stand up for an entire generation and community who are proud of the work that you are doing with the others on the panel. Thank you for that. Be proud of yourself. I have been inspired by you, and I am proud of you.

Gemma, becoming a parent has its own demands and uncertainties. You have given a voice, if I may say that, to so many people across our society and offered reassurance and hope that has not existed for a long time. You have sent a signal across all Departments — through this session, the Bill and all of us, as advocates of the Bill — that things will change. Thank you for your leadership.

I also thank Julie and Bronagh. This has been one of the most interesting sessions that we have had. It was deeply emotional; I could feel it in each of you. Many of us take for granted the things that we have been blessed with in life. We do not always appreciate the challenges that exist in the lives of others. However, I hope that, if the Assembly achieves anything, we can have a direct and positive impact that will transform the lives of an entire community that, in truth, has been forgotten about for too long. Thank you for being here today.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Absolutely. As I was saying, Julie, it is remarkable that you have been filling the gap with your organisation and other similar organisations. Hopefully, the day when people have to rely on that is coming to an end and people can expect, as of right, to receive support.

I also thank Gemma and Bronagh for their advocacy, which comes across strongly and clearly. Bronagh, you said that you have to be that bit more stringent to fight for your child. That is something that you should not have to do.

The word and message that came across most strongly from you, Ellie-May, was "inclusion" and the need and the right to be included. You have certainly been included in this Committee today, and you have brought the voice of all your community into the room in a very powerful way. I mean this genuinely: your evidence to the Committee has been remarkable in how confident, concise and clear you have been. You have been much clearer than many of the adults we have had in this room. I am sure, Bronagh, that you are proud every day, but you should be really proud today. It has been a remarkable session that has provided a remarkable insight into the needs that exist. It has also put a remarkable focus on us to ensure that the Bill is as good as we can make it so that, at long last, you will start to receive the services that you deserve as of right.

Thank you very much for your evidence today and sincere best wishes for the future from all of us.