Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We will now undertake our formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Deaths, Still-Births and Baby Loss Bill, having discussed it informally in closed session. We now have the opportunity to formally determine and set out our position on each of the proposed clauses. If there is disagreement on any of the clauses, we will divide as necessary. All decisions taken today will be final. However, it is important to say that those decisions do not bind individual members when voting on or debating the Bill. If the Committee is not content with a clause, it can register its formal opposition to the Question that a clause stand part of the Bill, and that would remove the whole clause from the Bill. That will ensure that the clause in its entirety is debated at Consideration Stage. It is anticipated that we will conclude all formal deliberations and agree the Bill report at today's meeting.

The Committee Clerk: No, Chair. We will not agree the Bill report. We will bring that back next week, because we are putting in additional commentary, so it is not just a clean report.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): OK. We have discussed a lot of the germane things that will be in the Bill report already.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We seek agreement to group clauses 3 to 5, which cover direct transmission of certificates. If any member has specific issues, raise them as we go. Clause 3 is on giving the certificate of stillbirth directly. Clause 4 is on giving the certificate of cause of death directly. Clause 5 is on giving the certificate of registration or written notice of death directly. We discussed the issue that the Deputy Chair raised about the guidance.

The Committee Clerk: I will flag that up with the Department.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): That will be reflected in the Bill report. With that caveat, I will put the Question.

Mr Frew: Very content.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We have that on the record, Mr Frew.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): With clause 11, we have a specific caveat, which is that the Committee's view is that it does not believe that there should be a charge for baby loss certificates, in principle. That is clear, noting the Department's view about the need to have a provision for a hypothetical future charging of fees, with the caveat that it would have to come back as a draft affirmative regulation to the Assembly, which would be amendable and would require an affirmative vote by the Assembly.

The Committee has stated that it does not believe, in principle, in charges, but, with that caveat added, I will put the Question.

Mr Carroll: I have raised issues around charging that were noted before.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We are making clear that we are not content with the charges. We have that recorded. We are content subject to the caveat that we have noted.

Mr Frew: Should we also mention the fact that the draft affirmative resolution procedure means that we can amend it?

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I have said that. That will be in the report, and it will be in Hansard, and I will say it when we come to reflect the fact so that any stakeholders, particularly affected parents, understand that this does not create the power to charge; it creates the power to bring forward future regulation that is amendable and can be voted down. Subject to those caveats, are we content with clause 11?

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): We will now delay our consideration of the draft Bill report.

The Committee Clerk: Until next week.

The Chairperson (Mr O'Toole): I thank Philip, Aoife and Liz for participating. It is useful that we have done that scrutiny. It is worth putting on the record that, having given the officials a hard time in the past about the production of the Bill, it is fair to say that we appreciate the fact that the legislation has come forward. You have been fulsome in giving us evidence, and we thank you for your work in delivering it. We look forward to debating it.

We will have a debate, and then we will consider the amendments that are laid. We thank you for your work on the Bill. We will discuss the Bill report next week. Thank you very much, Philip, Aoife and Liz.