Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome Mr Colin Breen, the assistant director, environmental resources policy; and Carmel McDowell, the acting head of waste legislation, both from DAERA. When you are comfortable, please feel free to brief the Committee.

Mrs Carmel McDowell (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Mr Chairman and Committee members, thank you for the opportunity to provide you with a briefing on the resources and waste common framework. DAERA is the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) lead for 15 common frameworks, and the resources and waste common framework is one of the few remaining frameworks yet to undergo scrutiny by the Committee. It covers the multiple legislative systems relating to waste and resource efficiency as part of the wider approach to delivering a circular economy.

The development of the resources and waste common framework is based on the underlying principles agreed by the Joint Ministerial Committee between 2017 and 2020 by the four UK legislatures. Those principles are:

Overall, waste is a policy area that has been comprehensively legislated for. Most of the subject matter of the relevant legislation falls into devolved competence and therefore has been legislated for by each nation. Other areas, such as producer responsibility, have been legislated for on a UK-wide basis where it has made sense to do so, given the nature of the complex value chains involved.

Under the framework, decision-making on reserved matters will continue to sit with the UK Government in line with the devolution settlements. However, the UK Government will involve the devolved Administrations as fully as possible in decision-making on non-devolved matters that impact on devolved matters or have a distinctive importance to a devolved nation.

The resources and waste common framework is intended to facilitate multilateral policy development and set out high-level commitments by the UK Government, Scottish Government, Welsh Government and DAERA. Those will include policy decisions for areas in the scope of the framework, including policy creation, regulatory change and policy operational issues; the resolution of issues, including before needing to initiate the dispute resolution mechanism; referring issues to the overarching dispute avoidance and resolution mechanism outlined in the framework; and reviewing and amending the framework.

The framework provides a governance structure that allows for issues discussed at a working level to be escalated to senior officials, if necessary, in line with the dispute avoidance and resolution mechanism. The parties recognise that changes could have impacts on regulation, policy, the UK internal market and international obligations that need to be discussed and considered through the arrangements set out in the framework.

The previous AERA Minister agreed the outline agreement for the resources and waste common framework in January 2021. The 'Resources and Waste Provisional Common Framework: Framework Outline Agreement and Concordat' was published in December 2022. It is a non-legislative framework and part of the common frameworks programme.

You will note that the published document contains references to the Northern Ireland protocol. It is this version that has been scrutinised by the legislatures of England, Scotland and Wales and awaits scrutiny by the Committee. Once scrutiny has been completed by the Committee, any recommendations for amendments will be assessed by senior policy officials from the four Administrations. Text relating to the Windsor framework will replace references to the Northern Ireland protocol when the text is agreed by the First Minister and deputy First Minister. The recommendations that are accepted will be included in the framework, and the amended document will be professionally proofread. After a final review is done by policy officials across the four nations, the text will be agreed at ministerial level across the four nations as well as by the First Minister and deputy First Minister. The final common framework will then be deposited in the Westminster Library by the Cabinet Office.

That is the end of the briefing. We are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. Thank you so much. That was a high-level piece of work. I have three questions for you, if that is OK. Whoever is best fitted to respond to them should do so.

Does the Department have any major concerns about the common framework as it stands? Has it worked well for Northern Ireland?

Mr Colin Breen (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): There are no concerns. Some of the language needs updating. It has not been scrutinised, and some of the language is out of date. That is not a major concern; it is just presentational. Generally, we work well across the four nations and across the island on all resource and waste matters. There have been times when the framework has worked well, such as on the deposit return scheme and single-use vapes, so we really have no concerns. It has been working well and has been in place, although not legally for some time.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): What is the status in the other devolved jurisdictions?

Mrs McDowell: It is effectively the same. The programme was stalled for a time. The current framework document, as published, has been scrutinised by the other three legislatures, and, when the Committee has done its scrutiny today or in the coming weeks, it will go to the next step, which is to evaluate any recommendations that have been made and to put them into or remove them from the framework.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Have the other devolved regions made a submission based on their scrutiny?

Mrs McDowell: I am not aware of anything.

Mr Breen: It has been a while since I spoke to any of them about it, as it happened a while ago, but it all passed with, "Very little to see here". It is a procedural mechanism. That is not to downplay it or anything like that, but it is not contentious.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. You mentioned that high-level work is being done to reword it because of the Windsor framework. Is the Department concerned about that? Is that being assessed with regard not to its operation but to its political intent? Does it cause any concern here?

Mrs McDowell: The text on the Windsor framework has been agreed at senior policy official level. My understanding is that final agreement and sign-off sits with our First Minister and deputy First Minister, but, as far as I understand, it has gone through whatever agreement processes are necessary for the rest of the legislatures.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): This is my last question. Members, get ready for your questions.

With regard to the forthcoming consultation on the waste management strategy, with the last strategy being published in 2013, how will the framework tie in with the forthcoming strategy and support the transition to a more sustainable and circular waste management system in Northern Ireland in order to help us to achieve our high-level net zero targets?

Mr Breen: That question will be for me. Much of what we are talking about in the waste strategy and waste matters is devolved, so, often, the common framework will not come in at all. Where we can collaborate with the other nations, we will do so. The common framework will come in then largely only as a dispute resolution mechanism. On the majority of issues, we work as we have always done. We work on local matters if they are best done in a local way and on collaborative matters, such as extended producer responsibility and the deposit return scheme, on a multi-nation basis. There really will be little change. It is just another safeguard mechanism. It will not stop the good work that has been going on for many years, and it will not really change it.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): This is my final, final question. I just picked up on something in your answer on collaboration. Waste management has a particular role to play in decarbonisation. Are there good and sound collaborative initiatives between each of the nations on best practice; not so much on policy, strategy and conformity but on identifying good practice?

Mr Breen: I could not count the number of collaborative groups that I am on for various work streams. We always share best practice, but we always have to recognise that every nation works slightly differently on a lot of those things, which is why much of waste is devolved. We are a very open market in terms of moving waste around the UK, so there is an awful lot of collaboration in that area on such things as recycling best practice and learning from one another. We do a lot of things similarly because we have similar reprocessors, for example. They need materials of similar quality. There is a lot of overarching legislation on, for example, waste shipments, on which we will need to collaborate. That is why digital waste tracking is being done collaboratively.

We always start with local solutions, looking at best practice from elsewhere — not just from GB but from anywhere that has done well. If things are clearly able to be done or done better on a four-nation or three-nation — whatever number of nations — basis, we will always collaborate on those. As officials, we are talking pretty much constantly about how we can improve that and do it together. A big thing that we are working on at the minute is decarbonisation pathways for the most difficult-to-recycle wastes, such as absorbent hygiene products, dense plastics, mattresses and textiles, things that cause a lot of emissions during their creation.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Can I ask you one, wee question, Colin? I will move on to members shortly.

I am interested in this one. In my most recent visit to a popular soft drink's bottling plant in Lisburn — I will not name it, but it is globally huge — staff were at pains to point out to me that they had moved from using virgin plastic to recycled plastic. I think that they are pretty much there. When we achieve something like that, is there a calculation to adjust our climate ambition to recognise the good work that has been done? Is that an ongoing process? Maybe that is not a question for your Department, but it is bound to be linked.

Mr Breen: The emissions industry is quite high-level, so you will not see the granularity. There will be things that the company will not be importing. A lot of the virgin plastic is produced elsewhere, and the emissions are counted elsewhere, but climate change is a global problem. The change may not make a drastic change to Northern Ireland's emissions, but the move to recycled plastic has an impact because virgin plastic is made from oil. There is a reduction in the use of fossil fuels, and that is a reduction in emissions over time.

Mr McAleer: Carmel, in your introduction, you said that the decision-making rests with the UK Government but involves the devolved institutions. What mechanisms are in place to involve the devolved institutions in the common framework?

Mrs McDowell: Generally, any policy issues are regularly discussed in the normal working groups for the four nations, and we meet regularly with our teams. On reserved matters, there are regular meetings with our colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), and, while the UK Government have the decision-making facility for reserved matters, they always try to let the devolved nations have an input to any decisions. Obviously, the decision-making ultimately rests with the UK Government.

Mr Breen: At the official level, there are various resource and waste project groups across the four nations. The resource and waste portfolio board is a higher-level group that covers all the areas. The environment, food and rural affairs senior officials group governs the area, and there is an inter-ministerial group that sits over that group. There are a number of layers of governance.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Carmel and Colin.

Ms Finnegan: Thank you for the useful information that you have provided. I have a quick question about collaboration. The circular economy is an area where the South is moving at pace with ambitious legislation and targets that are aligned with the EU. How will the UK-wide framework ensure that the North is able to complement rather than diverge from the South?

Mr Breen: Some of those areas will be in the Windsor framework, and some have already been transposed prior to EU exit. Quite a few of the targets exist in Northern Ireland, and we collaborate with Ireland as well as the other nations. We collaborate at an official level, and a good example is our deposit return scheme. Our Minister will collaborate with the Irish Ministers on a one-to-one basis. There are also the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) environment themes, and the circular economy is one of those. The circular economy is also one of the themes of the British-Irish Council, and we recognise its importance on both islands.

The waste moves across borders on this island, to GB, left to right and right to left. We are well engaged, and we recognise the importance of the theme. There are a few differences, which mean some areas of collaboration do not work as well. For example, the household collections in southern Ireland are private. There are differences that mean that we do not work as closely on best practices for waste collection. However, we have lots of good examples of areas where we collaborate closely. It is on a policy-by-policy basis.

Ms Finnegan: Thanks. How can that help address cross-border waste crime, such as that at Mobuoy?

Mr Breen: That is probably outside my area of expertise. Obviously, more joined-up regulation of waste and more investigations will help prevent those problems. Unfortunately, it is outside our area. It is probably a question for the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA).

Ms Finnegan: Thank you.

Mr Blair: It is good to see you both, Colin and Carmel. Thank you for your briefing.

Under section 4 of the framework document, there is mention of a UK-wide approach, and the framework refers to:

First, is it the aim of the framework to be analytical or advisory rather than to implement targets for different regions? Secondly, how does it fit with other policy areas such as the circular economy and, crucially, the climate piece, when there is a UK CO2 reduction target? Would it not make sense for there to be more formal oversight of the framework and how the different areas, including recycling, fit into that overall UK target? Is it simply left to separate business areas to develop that themselves?

Mr Breen: The framework is a specific thing. That is not to say that there are not other things at work; it is one specific mechanism. Aside from that, we are working together on best practice in recycling and recycling targets, while recognising that the nations are different. Wales has a much higher recycling target and is doing better than the rest of us on recycling, for example. There are climate change mechanisms other than the common framework.

Mr Blair: Will individual policy areas in Departments and business areas feed into the chain, if you like, on the overall UK climate change targets?

Mr Breen: Yes.

Mr Blair: I can understand that; the framework is about oversight.

It is suggested that the framework be reviewed after six months, then yearly and, possibly, biyearly after that. Will there be public consultation as part of the review, or will that be an internal process?

Mrs McDowell: We do not know yet. We can find out.

Mr Blair: Thank you.

Miss McIlveen: I have a brief question. Thank you for your presentation. Has there been any discussion about restricting the volume of waste that is exported? I am mindful of the fact that a lot of it goes for recycling, which is grand, because there are some items that we cannot recycle, but a lot of waste goes for incineration, and perhaps we do not have the capacity to deal with that in Northern Ireland. As a policy discussion point, are you looking at that?

Mr Breen: We are in the middle of doing an assessment of our infrastructure. It is clear that there is not enough waste infrastructure in Northern Ireland or on this island. That is why we have so many waste exports. It has to go somewhere, because, unfortunately, people like to use stuff and throw it away. More can be done on recycling to bring that down, but, unfortunately, with a lack of indigenous infrastructure, we cannot ban or reduce waste exports, because it needs to go somewhere. Without a doubt, that is a big problem. We constantly look for contingencies and at how it can be dealt with more locally. Under legal principles on proximity and self-sufficiency, we are supposed to deal with waste as closely as possible to where it is produced, but, at the minute, the infrastructure to deal with it is not there.

Miss McIlveen: A number of options have been around for a long time, including Arc21. It is about looking for leadership in the Department to drive forward those solutions.

Mr Breen: Unfortunately, a lot of decisions rest with the Planning Service — DFI — and we cannot unduly influence the planning process. A great deal of that is also to do with private procurement. The Department has been playing its part in all of that, but there are a lot of moving parts. The infrastructure is not where it should be. That has been recognised over many years and over many reports.

Miss McIlveen: I appreciate what you say. It is about Northern Ireland plc taking waste by the neck and saying that we need to be a bit more serious about how we deal with our waste rather than exporting it and making it somebody else's problem.

Mr Irwin: Do you have any idea of the tonnage of exported waste that goes for incineration abroad?

Mrs McDowell: We do not have those figures to hand, but we can get those for you.

Mr Irwin: It would be interesting.

Mr Breen: We have answered a few recent Assembly questions with those sorts of figures. It is in the hundreds of thousands of tons. We can follow that up and give you the most recent figures.

Mr Irwin: It was said that we are exporting the problem to somewhere else. It makes sense to look at ways of dealing with it locally if possible.

Mr Breen: It is not all a problem. We export it to people who then use it to create energy and heat and all the things that we lose out on. Without a doubt, we lose out on a number of benefits by not having indigenous infrastructure.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): A final question has just occurred to me. Does the framework cover giving guidance on the storage of waste?

Mrs McDowell: No. The framework is really just a governance structure effectively. It does not really suggest policy or set policy. That is for individual Departments and groups in those Departments to bring forward for discussion in the framework.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. Thank you very much for your time today.