Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I welcome Detective Chief Superintendent Zoë McKee, head of the public protection branch at the PSNI, and Detective Superintendent Jordan Piper from the PSNI. Thank you for your papers; we appreciate you sending them well in advance. You may go ahead with your opening remarks.

Detective Superintendent Jordan Piper (PSNI): I am the senior investigating officer for the Police Service of Northern Ireland's investigation of mother-and-baby homes, Magdalene laundries and workhouses in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1990.

I recognise the bravery of the victims and witnesses who came forward and reported their experiences. I also acknowledge other victims and witnesses who, for many reasons, may not have felt able to report their abuse. It is never too late to do so, but I understand that this is a personal and individual decision. I also recognise the huge impact on those who were born in the institutions and the lasting effects that victims and survivors continue to experience. There will be victims, survivors and their families watching the evidence session today, and I hope that they are able to take comfort in knowing that the Police Service undertook the investigation.

The Police Service launched the formal investigation in October 2021, following the publication of the independent research report in January 2021, 'Mother and Baby Homes and Magdalene Laundries in Northern Ireland, 1922-1990'. The investigation team has worked hard to ensure that victims are supported by offering signposting to counselling and health services, with an emphasis on sensitive engagement. Where statements and accounts were given, victims were spoken to, where possible, and individual letters sent to explain the rationale behind decision-making on investigations and to offer a face-to-face meeting with a senior investigating officer.

To date, 107 referrals have been made to the investigation team. The matters reported include rape; incest; child sexual abuse; physical assault and cruelty; issues relating to adoption and cross-border movement; and allegations of mass burials and unmarked graves. Of the 107 referrals, 46 individuals reported an incident in which they were the victim; there were 37 reports from relatives, most of whom were born in an institution; 16 reports came from researchers gathering testimonies; three reports were made by former employees of an institution; and one was made by a current employee in a statutory organisation. Sixty-six mothers were linked to the reports made. Of those, 14 were 16 years old or younger when they arrived at the institution. Reporting persons were living in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, England, Australia, the United States of America and Canada at the time of reporting. The majority of reports received related to the Marianvale and Marianville mother-and-baby homes, both of which were run by the sisters of the Good Shepherd religious order.

Twenty individuals belonging to various institutions have been named as perpetrators in the reports. Of those, two worked in the Republic of Ireland, 14 of the 20 have been positively identified, and 12 of those are deceased. Some of the individuals were born in the 1800s and died prior to the year 2000. One individual has been linked as a suspect to five reports. They were a member of a religious institution and died before the police investigation began. Another individual who is linked to three reports in the investigation also died prior to the police investigation commencing.

Currently, 18 investigations remain open, while 89 have been closed due to evidential difficulties including absence of a named suspect; the suspect being deceased; no criminal offence having been identified; or the offence being outside the statute of limitations for prosecution. There were further challenges, as some reports were made by third parties and there was no opportunity to obtain the victim's account or to pursue further inquiries. Cases that remain open are being individually assessed for evidential opportunities and criminal proceedings. Two cases are being prepared for the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) with named suspects. Of those suspects, one suspect is being reviewed for extradition proceedings and the other is being interviewed pending file submission. Both of those relate to incidents that occurred prior to the victims' admission to the institution.

Where they were requested and received, institutional records were found to be lacking in detail or incomplete. Concerns were raised about the treatment of human remains, including that there was the potential for unmarked graves and burial practices. In particular, the Marianvale site required examination to establish historical records and potential evidential leads on concerns around mass burials at the site. At this time, no evidence has been found to support that allegation. Not all allegations, if found, may amount to crimes under the laws that were being enforced at the time, even if the actions may be considered deeply immoral and unacceptable today. The investigation has had to carefully distinguish between actions that may have been illegal at the time and actions that were immoral or abusive but not necessarily criminal. That balance

explaining outcomes in closure letters and trying to manage victim expectations. That also makes it clear why some cases may not progress to prosecution, whilst recognising the seriousness of victims' experience and the lasting trauma that has been caused in many cases.

It has been a privilege to lead the investigation on behalf of the public protection branch of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I recognise the efforts of the many officers and staff who contributed to the investigation. Whilst the Police Service has almost concluded this phase of the investigation, we encourage anyone who has any information to come forward at any time. I thank the Committee for the opportunity to present evidence on behalf of the PSNI today.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you so much. We all read your submission with a bit of a heavy heart. I do not doubt the efforts that you and your colleagues have gone to to get to the bottom of the allegations. I suppose, however, that that is the nature of the beast — the passage of time — in many instances. Thank you so much.

There is a query that is going through my head with a lot of this, given that the Committee is going ahead with the public inquiry and there is the potential for new evidence coming forward. How will you link back into that? How could things run concurrently, where new evidence is presented that meets the threshold for a criminal offence?

Detective Superintendent Piper: We are conscious that, once the public inquiry in under way, there may be further evidence that we have not had sight of that might identify different offences. It will never be too late to report those to us; we will agree some kind of referral mechanism and revisit any investigations that have been closed if new information comes to light. We will also open new investigations, if we believe there is criminality.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. That is all from me. Do you have anything, Deputy Chair?

Mr Dickson: I have two brief questions. I wish to get a feel or understanding of the level of cooperation that you received from institutions — churches and other charitable organisations — when you were conducting your inquiries and any interaction with health trusts on their legacy responsibilities as part of your investigations.

I have a second question. Most of the cross-border focus tends to be on movement between here and the Republic of Ireland, but has there been any interaction with your colleagues in Scotland, England and Wales? A recent ITV documentary indicated that children were transferred from England to homes in Northern Ireland.

Detective Superintendent Piper: On the first question, any institution, legal representative or other statutory agency has been helpful to us when we have requested records, where records have been available. The bigger challenge has been the lack of records or, where records have been shared, their incompleteness, because there was no standardised requirement to complete records. That was more of a challenge than information not being shared with us.

On your second question, we work with other UK police services to share information in criminal investigations, where we need to, but I cannot think of a particular case in this investigation in which we have had to do that. However, it is always an option, and it would be reasonably easy for us to work with other police services.

Mr Dickson: We all acknowledge that record-keeping is not identical across all organisations and that there was no statutory requirement to keep them in a particular way, but are you satisfied that you got full cooperation, or do you have a fear or concern that anything was withheld?

Detective Superintendent Piper: We are satisfied that, in the cases where we saw records, whoever we were seeking the records from cooperated with us. If they did not, we would, perhaps, have escalated to trying to obtain a court order to access the records. I have no concerns.

Mr Brett: First, I thank you and your team for all of the work that you have done on this. It has clearly been a difficult experience, but it is important.

To begin with, I want to focus on the cross-border aspect. It is well documented that the Republic of Ireland has, for many years, been a safe haven for criminals when it comes to extradition to the United Kingdom. Did you face any difficulties regarding cross-border investigations or cooperation?

Detective Superintendent Piper: Not in the way that you are asking. We had a memorandum of understanding with an Garda Síochána at the beginning of the investigation in relation to information sharing, and we have processes in which we request and share information through our international policing unit, but there was nothing specific in this investigation that brought us any challenges.

Mr Brett: There was a statute of limitations in operation in the Republic of Ireland. Page 9 of your evidences contains the line:

In your view, were there cases that were blocked from going to prosecution as a result of the statute of limitations that was in operation in the Republic of Ireland?

Detective Superintendent Piper: I can only speak about the legislation in Northern Ireland, because the offences that occurred in the Republic of Ireland were not within our remit to investigate. Northern Ireland had a number of allegations relating to an adoption process and whether that was valid. There was a criminal offence attached to the adoption legislation, but that became statute-barred after six months, so a prosecution could only be started within six months of that day.

We know the situation that many victims were in at the time, and I am sure that they would not have known that there was a potential offence let alone been in a position to challenge it. That has presented a challenge in the bulk of the allegations that relate to adoption, because there has not been anything in legislation [Inaudible.]

Mr Brett: In the section headed, "Legal vs Moral Accountability", your evidence says:

Will you give examples of that?

Detective Superintendent Piper: General mistreatment experienced within the home; potential allegations of financial abuse; and potential allegations of not being allowed to leave the home. In that instance, it related more to the vulnerability of the victim and their understanding around what they could and could not do, rather than being kept in the home by force. We understand now that those things were completely reprehensible and should not have happened, but there was nothing to say that those things were illegal when they happened.

Mr Brett: So it would not have been covered by false imprisonment.

Detective Superintendent Piper: We explored allegations to see whether it was false imprisonment. We sought legal advice on every case and overarching legal advice to see what offences there were at the time, but nothing fitted the offence of false imprisonment.

Mr Brett: Did you say that one application for extradition occurred? Where is that from?

Detective Superintendent Piper: I do not really want to give too much information on a particular case.

Mr Brett: Sure. Did you say that you were preparing another application?

Detective Superintendent Piper: There are two applications. One is an extradition application. Because it is an ongoing case, I do not want to speak about it at this time. We will fully disclose all information once the case is concluded. The second case is a file that is being prepared for the Public Prosecution Service. That case does not involve extradition.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Thank you for your presentation to the Committee. It is really appreciated. A lot of my questions have been asked, but there is one area that I am not clear on. Have the guards ever contacted the PSNI in the North about investigations to do with the similar inquiry that happened in the South?

I could not hear your answer on this properly, but did you say that you are content that you saw all the records from the institutions as part of your investigation?

Detective Superintendent Piper: On the first question, to my knowledge, we have not been contacted by colleagues in the guards specifically around any investigations. On the second question, we were provided with the records that we asked for. There is nothing that has made us think that anything was concealed from us or not provided to us. I cannot say 100% that they gave us everything, because I do not know what they have, if that makes sense.

Ms Ní Chuilín: To be clear, the records would have been their registration books and things like that.

Detective Superintendent Piper: Yes.

Ms Ní Chuilín: They would have shown who was there, who was brought in, where they had their baby, whether their baby was adopted and where their baby went.

Detective Superintendent Piper: Yes. In the cases where we requested records, we have the initial admission sheet and the information around that. In some cases, we have letters from social workers relating to adoption and other items that might be relevant. We did not receive comprehensive records, but my understanding is that comprehensive records were not kept.

Ms Ní Chuilín: OK. Thank you.

Mr Gaston: I want to pick up on the Marianvale site examination. The Committee has heard that a number of sites are suspected of being used for mass burials. Are the police aware of any other sites, apart from Marianvale, which you have already looked at?

Detective Superintendent Piper: No, we have only been provided with information in relation to Marianvale, but I am aware of Milltown cemetery, if that is the site you are referring to. Other than those two, no.

Mr Gaston: There have been others. Was there one in Omagh?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I cannot remember off the top of my head. We would need to look at that again.

Mr Gaston: As the inquiry gets going, other sites are identified and potential evidence is brought forward, are the police open to engaging with the inquiry so that other sites are examined as they come up?

Detective Superintendent Piper: Yes, of course. We will investigate all allegations of criminality, whether they relate to burial, assault or anything else.

Mr Gaston: Of 107 cases, 54 have been completed. So many are still ongoing. From memory, those were the figures that were given the previous time that you came to Committee. What is the updated position?

Detective Superintendent Piper: I have never presented to the Committee.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We talked about some information at one of the familiarisation days in the summer. Is that possibly what you are talking about?

Mr Gaston: Were the police not at Committee before?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): There might have been a written submission. There is a summary report in your tabled pack, but it was not an oral evidence session.

Mr Gaston: I thought that it said:

I am fairly sure that I have seen that information before. We are now in September. Where are we today?

Detective Superintendent Piper: Bear with me.

Detective Chief Superintendent Zoë McKee (PSNI): My understanding is that the summary report was given in the summer this year.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is right.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Obviously, we are attending Committee today. The figures that you have been given are the most up-to-date figures. I do not anticipate that they would have significantly changed between the summer report and now.

Detective Superintendent Piper: Page 4 of the report that we submitted for this session shows that 18 investigations remain open, as I said in my opening remarks. We are assessing those 18 cases for evidential opportunities.

Mr Gaston: Does that mean that, out of the 54 investigations that were ongoing, we are down to 18 now.

Detective Superintendent Piper: The evidence that I submitted for this session is that 18 investigations remain open.

Mr Gaston: I am interested in your social media campaign. The way that we could target people who may have been affected has come up quite a bit in discussions over the past few months. The USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, as well as the UK, were the geographical locations that you targeted. Do you have figures on the number of people who have come forward from any of those locations?

Detective Superintendent Piper: I do not have them with me today, but I can provide you with a written update afterwards with a breakdown of the 107 referrals. They came from Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, England, Australia, the USA and Canada. I can give you a breakdown of those afterwards.

Mr Gaston: Yes, if that is possible. It would be good to understand how many of them were reached through the social media campaign. The Committee has a list of contacts to get our message out. If the police have already established a way of getting people in other countries to come forward, they may well be able to help us to widen that net if possible.

I have raised the issue of the records that have come forward a number of times today. One trust has digitised its records because of the vast amount of them and the poor condition that they were kept in. Can you comment on what condition the records that you have seen from the institutions have been in? Yes, I understand that there are gaps. One might argue that they are not fit for purpose, because the information contained is not what we would expect from institutions today, but what about their physical condition? Are they digitised, or are they in paper format?

Detective Superintendent Piper: The ones that I have seen are a combination. They might be handwritten, and, occasionally, it can be difficult to read someone's handwriting but not to the point that you cannot read what was written. Some are typed letters. There has not been a challenge for the investigation because we were not able to read the records.

Mr Gaston: Out of the list of all the different crimes that have been alleged, how widespread is child abuse?

Detective Superintendent Piper: How many what, sorry?

Mr Gaston: How widespread is child abuse among your investigations?

Detective Superintendent Piper: There are not many investigations of child abuse. We can share the analytical report once we have concluded all 107 cases so that you can see the exact breakdown, but there are not a lot of allegations.

Mr Gaston: Other European countries have a child abuse commissioner. I am interested in seeing how widespread child abuse is in the information that you are considering. Do we need a prevalence survey across Northern Ireland to see how widespread it is? That would feed into the piece about whether Northern Ireland needs its own child abuse commissioner. Other countries have them. I am trying to get a context from you to see whether we should look at that.

Those are all my queries. It would be helpful if you could provide that information after the session, especially information on the social media reach and the response that you have had from that.

Detective Superintendent Piper: Of course. We did an extensive media campaign. I am really happy to share all of that with you, because it has been successful.

Mr Gaston: All information — even the costs involved and the locations that you targeted — would be helpful as we move forward.

Detective Superintendent Piper: For example, the work that we did in Northern Ireland involved the distribution of 1,500 leaflets and 250 posters between each policing district of Northern Ireland. It was extensive.

Mr Gaston: How did you target areas with the leaflets?

Detective Superintendent Piper: It was equal across Northern Ireland: there was the same distribution through each policing district. We also looked at community groups and agencies that worked with adoption and spoke to such organisations as Age NI and the office of the Commissioner for Older People for Northern Ireland, given the potential age of some of the victims. We asked that our information be included in their newsletters.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): To clarify, you supplied us with a summary report in June. At that time, we asked whether we could share it with the victim and survivor groups, but you said that you would like to conclude.

Detective Superintendent Piper: Yes.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is why you are here today: you have concluded all of your investigations. That has been tidied up.

There are no more questions. Thanks again for your work on this. It is a very important and sensitive subject.