Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I welcome Daniel Voss, sign language pastor with the Christian Fellowship Church (CFC) sign language centre (SLC). Daniel, I invite you to make an opening statement, after which Committee members will ask questions.

Mr Daniel Voss (Christian Fellowship Church Sign Language Centre): Thank you. It is an honour to be here. I really appreciate it.

I will first explain who I am, before going into the background of what I do. I am originally from London. I came to Northern Ireland 12 years ago. I am fully deaf. I grew up in a hearing family. I have spoken all my life. I attended mainstream school and university. Although I could use my voice, I often found things quite difficult, because my identity was missing. I tried to blend in, but that came at a cost to my well-being. About 13 years ago, I moved to Northern Ireland to study at the then Belfast Bible College. I knew Rita and Raymond Abernethy, whom you met in the previous session. It was when I joined the college that I discovered the deaf community in Northern Ireland. I started to learn British Sign Language and to understand deaf culture, and I found out how much I was missing out on. I therefore found my missing identity, if that makes sense, and felt as though I belonged in the deaf community.

I want to speak what I am going to say word for word. I use sign language from time to time, although I find it a struggle to get a sign language interpreter. It is difficult to book one, as they are in high demand. I always feel guilty using an interpreter when there are other people who need them more.

I serve as sign language pastor at the CFC on the Belmont Road. We have six sites, including one in east Belfast, one in Antrim one in Holywood. The SLC will be celebrating its 40th anniversary next year. It started in 1986. I am the third deaf pastor, following Raymond Abernethy, whom you know, and Adam McCormick. You may know Adam McCormick, as he is quite a famous guy.

Mr Voss: He is your cousin? Very good. There you go.

Our mission is clear. It is:

Currently, about 40 people attend our weekly service. In 2024, we launched a Sunday school and also BSL TOTS, which is for babies to preschool children. BSL TOTS runs on a Tuesday morning and has grown from having two children, one of them my boy, to 15 children, with a mix of hearing and deaf families, coders, interpreters and others. It has become a beautiful place for connection and belonging.

Statistics show that, at the moment, only 2% of deaf Christians attend church in Northern Ireland. Currently, 98% are without regular access to worship. That is mainly due to the shortage of interpreters. We also do not have a Bible translated into BSL for Northern Ireland, although I hope that we will be able to get that established soon. We are trying to get funding from America to get a BSL translation that truly reflects Northern Ireland's sign language and culture. It is important to remember that BSL has a completely different grammatical structure from English. For example, we say, "What is your name?" in English, and the construction in BSL is, "You name what?" Many deaf people struggle to understand written English, including the Bible. Some in our Church only access learning about God and the Bible through what is preached on a Sunday, and they cannot easily read or understand English text.

I should explain the real-life scenarios that I face every day when dealing with deaf people. A really good example is when someone came to me with 20 electricity bills. He only realised when he received a red warning letter — he know the colour red — that it was urgent. He came to me and asked what he was meant to do, and I had to try to tell him word for word what he was meant to do and where he was meant to pay. Quite often, on the letter, it will say, "You have to call this number". That is another barrier that we have to face. Quite often, when we use signed video calls, someone could be from England, and the regional variation is like an accent; it is a little bit different from England. Therefore, it can lead to miscommunication, and it just gets broken down really badly. It is even harder for people who have come from a different country. Sometimes, the connection can be quite poor, which can be frustrating, and it does not come across well. Everything is done at a slower pace. Everything is four times slower than usual. Sometimes you need a deaf translator to help. Deaf people have a better understanding of deaf culture, and they might understand a deaf person emotionally or what they are trying to say and convey. That is something that we could bring in.

As a pastor in the Church, I know that, when teaching the Bible, it is not enough to translate word for word. We need to help people to understand the context and meaning. As you will know, the Bible has a lot of complex, informed layers. Deaf members' understanding often requires visual examples and relatable stories to connect the meaning. If I were to translate word for word, I might get to the surface of it, but I have to dig deep and show the visual stories and show them a lot of examples so that they can understand what the Bible is telling them. Doing that helps our ministry. It helps deaf people to understand deeply in their own language and culture.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Daniel. That was very useful and, again, an interesting other perspective on the very real impacts. I was struck at the very start of your presentation when you mentioned having to blend in and the cost of that to your well-being. Something almost identical was said by Ellie-May O'Connell, whom the Committee heard from previously. It was almost word for word, and I was really strongly reminded of that session. It is hugely regrettable that people should have to share that as a fundamental part of their collective experience.

I have a couple of questions. Will you say a bit more about the quality of interpreters and your experience of that? You noted in your response that you did not support the creation of an accreditation scheme, which clause 10 relates to. Is there something else that you feel would deal with the quality issue, if it is not accreditation?

Mr Voss: That is a good question. The standard of interpreters is hard to find. Normally, a good-quality interpreter is a lot harder to get. I do not know much about training of interpreters. I think that they do have their own training every year. An interpreter who Coming from England into this culture, I think that not everyone fully understands deaf culture, and that needs to be embedded. The interpreter needs to understand the emotional well-being of the deaf person, and they can raise their profile. I do not know much about the training, but the interpreter needs to be involved in the deaf community. That is the only way to find out. You can do a lot of training or go to university for years, but if you do not adopt the culture, you have missed the whole point. They need to understand the culture really well to understand what needs to be delivered.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you. You have outlined really practical challenges faced by the deaf community. Does the Bill, as it stands, address those and other challenges? Do you think that the Bill goes far enough?

Mr Voss: The current Bill?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Yes.

Mr Voss: No, it is not enough.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): In what way is it not enough? What needs to be added or considered to make the Bill robust?

Mr Voss: We will be here all night if I have to tell you all that. [Laughter.]

We need a little community or hub where deaf people can come together, and it can be a safe place for them. There is one outside Dublin called Deaf Village Ireland, and the community can come together. Years ago, there was Wilton House, but it closed down, and it had all the deaf organisations in one place. We need to establish deaf translation, not just interpretation. A lot of deaf translators can translate word for word, but if interpreters are translating into English, that will be their job, and the deaf people have to go into the deeper stuff because not everyone will fully understand if they just watch. I have loads of notes. Do you want me to go through some more?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I am trying to get a sense of what you specifically think needs to change in the Bill to deliver on the expectations. For example, is there one specific thing that you think would improve the Bill's outcomes?

Mr Voss: Sign language is the most important thing. The training should be embedded in schools. There is only one way to increase the number of interpreters, because we are short of them in this country. A lot of things need to be improved, such as technology in hospitals. For example, we could have some tablets, like an iPad, set up with a system that connects to signed video. That would be one step forward to make things easier. There is the future development of — I do not want to say this, but AI. I do not think that AI is ready yet, because I have seen it, and I do not think that they have that visual expression and deaf culture embedded into that system yet, but it could change in the next five to 10 years. I do not know, because there is not enough evidence.

We need to be one step ahead, and when deaf people go to the hospital and need interpretation, we need to have it ready for them. If we can get an iPad set up with signed videos and a really good Wi-Fi connection, it will make it one step easier for everyone to access. I also think that websites need to be translated into sign language. I work at the Christian Fellowship Church, and our membership pack was in English, and a lot of deaf people did not understand it. The pack needed to be translated into sign language. I got in contact with a company that was looking for charity from Google. We managed to get one established in our Church. It was to try to increase accessibility. Accessibility is important, first and foremost. When you go to a house nowadays, you will see that the building will have wheelchair ramps They must have that certain degree. If we could get that foundation set up properly for the deaf community, it would go a long way.

Mr McHugh: Tá fáilte romhat, Daniel. You are very welcome, Daniel. I am glad to hear things from your perspective. We had a very insightful session, before you came in, with another group of people representing the deaf community. Do you think that the language in the Bill is definite enough? In other words, is the use of "must", "may" or "due regard" going to give a let-out? Whilst we might pass legislation, it might not be effective because the language that is used allows Departments or whatever to avoid taking it on board, especially if it brings with it a cost.

Mr Voss: That is a good question. When deaf people read that, they think that that is how it should be, automatically. In English, you can play on words and understand how to twist it. It is not power or control, but it is more like an attitude of "That's OK. We can get away with it". When deaf people see that, they think that it should happen, and I think that the wording needs to change. It needs to be clear; it needs to be black and white. It cannot be grey. Otherwise, we will be going around the block again. Does that make sense?

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for your written evidence before coming today. You talk more in your written evidence about deaf culture. It is not just about BSL and ISL; it is about a person's life. You also talked about the hub. Earlier, we heard from a group of older deaf people about the importance of communication and coming together. Is there anywhere in the Bill where we could enhance the definition of "deaf culture" to say that there needs to be support to build a community?

Mr Voss: Is your question about how to enhance deaf culture in the community?

Ms K Armstrong: Yes.

Mr Voss: Deaf culture is normally established in a community when deaf people come together. We have the sign language class or Hands that Talk — any deaf club where the deaf community comes together and dwells together. At the moment, there is not a hub for them to come to connect and where they feel that they can be together and meet up regularly. There is nothing like a deaf pub that would enable people to meet up in a pub setting. Are you asking how you can get deaf culture into a community?

Ms K Armstrong: The wording that is used in the Bill suggests that it is primarily about only sign language. That is important — absolutely — but people are more. They have things that they want to do; they have hobbies and interests. That culture is not included in the Bill. How could we improve upon that?

Mr Voss: Have a deaf hub in towns. That is one way to establish a deaf culture, and people would come along to it. At the minute, it is a place where no one has access, except through WhatsApp. If someone from the hearing community, or new deaf people, wanted to join, they would not know where it is. There needs to be a place that people know about.

Ms K Armstrong: So when we talk in the Bill about promoting sign language and deaf culture, we need to look at defining what that promotion is going to look like going forward.

Mr Voss: Yes.

Ms K Armstrong: The other thing that I noticed is that the Bill refers to "reasonable" adjustments. I am on the same page as you. I do not think that "affordability" should be used in a Bill that will take five years to come into play for someone to say, "I do not have enough money to do that", because they should have been planning for it. Do you think that we should take out the reference to "reasonable" adjustments? To me, the only person who can decide whether a reasonable adjustment is appropriate is a deaf person.

Mr Voss: Yes. I remember, when BSL was recognised as a language in 2021 or 2022, everyone in the deaf community thought, "This is it. This is going to change our life forever", but it was not like that. A lot of them were quite disappointed by it. The term "reasonable adjustments" is wide and broad. A lot of people think, "They can probably read captions, so let's get subtitles", but not everyone can read those, or they might find a chief interpreter who is trained to a level 2 or level 3 standard, but that does not really match the level of the language that they are taking in. The term "reasonable adjustments" is too varied and is not very clear. It needs to be very clear from the start.

Ms K Armstrong: Finally, in your written response, you said that, if a person is not provided with sign language, there needs to be some way in which they can take action in order to make sure that that does not happen. Does the Bill need to be more specific by setting out what a person should expect to receive, and that, if an organisation does not provide that, the Disability Discrimination Act can therefore be used?

Mr Voss: Will you say that again?

Ms K Armstrong: You talked about someone being able to take action if they are not provided with sign language. Do we need to be prescriptive in the Bill on the provision of an interpreter so that, if someone is not provided with an interpreter at, for instance, accident and emergency, that failing could then be linked to the Disability Discrimination Act?

Mr Voss: That is very good. In America, the accessibility of websites is a must under government law. Therefore, if companies do not provide that, they will get fined a lot of money. If we establish that here, we will save our —. Poor mental health is three times higher among the deaf community than among the rest of the community. Those people suffer the most. As Rita said in the previous session, she waited 10 hours for an interpreter, and that is not on. If you have that in place, it will make people put that on top a little, and that will make a massive difference.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you very much. That was very helpful.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Daniel. Your specific perspective and additional information will be very useful to us in the development of the Bill and its Committee Stage. Thank you.

Mr Voss: I want to say this. In Finland — I think that the South of Ireland has this as well — every person gets so many mandated hours a year of interpreter support. It is about 100 hours a year, and that is provided by the Government. If you did that here in Northern Ireland, it would make a massive difference. Every single day, people have to get their car sorted by a mechanic or go to the council — all those sorts of things. Not all of those companies have an adviser or signed videos. If you had that sort of scheme for them, it would make a big difference. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Daniel. We will look at that. We appreciate it. I thank Daniel and all the witnesses. I also thank the interpreters here. Both sessions were lively and interactive, and your interpretation has greatly assisted our consideration of the Bill, so thank you.