Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I welcome Jeremy Logan, Pat Delaney and Siobhan Lynn to Committee. I need to get Committee agreement for the evidence to be recorded by Hansard. Are members happy with that?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): In that case, I will hand over to Jeremy to kick the session off. Jeremy, you are welcome to Committee. As is standard, you may give a presentation of up to 10 minutes, and then you can probably expect some questions from members. The floor is yours.

Mr Jeremy Logan (Driver and Vehicle Agency): Thank you very much, Chair. I will keep my remarks brief, as I am sure that members will want to ask questions. Thank you for your invitation to attend today and provide an update on Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) services. The Committee has recently received our quarter 2 progress report against the targets in the 2025-26 business plan. I will highlight a few key points.

Our business plan focuses on three priorities: our services; our infrastructure and assets; and our organisation. I am pleased to report that all 16 related targets are on track to be achieved. Last year, we made significant progress in reducing waiting times for driver and vehicle testing. We carried out a record 1·16 million vehicle tests. That was achieved through a combination of measures, including recruiting additional vehicle examiners, offering tests on Sundays and bank holidays and increasing the number of vehicles tested by each examiner. Those measures, combined with the use of temporary exemption certificates (TECs) for certain vehicles, helped to reduce MOT waiting times from around 100 days to approximately 30 days by the end of March.This year, our target is to maintain an average MOT waiting time of 35 days or fewer throughout the year. Currently, it sits at just under 33 days. The Minister's decision to extend the use of temporary exemption certificates, along with our continued focus on maximising operational delivery, has helped to keep waiting times manageable until our new test centres at Hydebank and Mallusk open for vehicle testing.

Construction at Mallusk is progressing well and is expected to be completed this year. We also plan further infrastructure development, subject to further consideration and funding availability, to ensure that our facilities are modern, safe and fit for purpose. The tender evaluation of our new vehicle testing solution — the new equipment contract — is well advanced. We anticipate that the contract will be awarded later this calendar year. Once in place, our priority will be to open Hydebank and Mallusk for vehicle testing, and then we will begin the roll-out of the new equipment across all our other test centres.

The waiting time for driver testing remains around 30 days. In September, we conducted just under 6,600 driving tests, which was the second-highest monthly total since 2009. Our licensing, commercial licensing and enforcement functions all continue to perform well, with all targets on track for achievement. We are also focused on modernising our customer-facing services, with a strong emphasis on expanding online access to make it easier for customers to interact with us.

Finally, we remain committed to reviewing our fees regularly to ensure the agency's financial sustainability and to deliver value-for-money services for our customers. In that regard, a review of driving licensing fees is under way.

That was short and sweet, but we are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): The Committee loves short and sweet presentations, Jeremy. Well done. You may have answered my first question while I was getting to the relevant bit on my Surface Pro — I am hopeless at multitasking. You mentioned Mallusk. The target specifies:

However, you did not specify a date. I think you mentioned that it would be completed shortly. Did I hear you right?

Mr Logan: You did. The construction of the test centre is nearing completion, and we expect it to be completed before the end of this year. As soon as it is completed and once the equipment implementation contract has been awarded, we will engage with the new contractor on the roll-out of equipment in that test centre. Obviously, it cannot open operationally until such times as it has the new equipment from the contract. We anticipate — again, a lot of this will depend on engagement with the new equipment contractor — a lead-in time of in the region of six to nine months.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): If I follow you right, it will be built this year, and then there will be some engagement. Will there be a full tender for the equipment implementation contract? Do you foresee it happening next year? I am heading towards this: when will a car go through there to get checked?

Mr Logan: Pat can provide more detail on the equipment contract, because he is leading the evaluation team. Yes, we are well advanced in the evaluation of the tender documentation. We hope to award the contract this calendar year, and then we will get into immediate engagement with the new contractor on equipping the test centres at Hydebank and Mallusk with the new equipment.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Not to put Pat under any additional pressure here, but, Pat, when will we see a vehicle rolling through Mallusk? What do you think, given where the tender is and how long will it take to put it in place?

Mr Pat Delaney (Driver and Vehicle Agency): We have just completed the evaluation of the tender documentation. The site verification visits start early tomorrow morning. We will go to the contractor of most advantageous tender, which we have already identified, and view the equipment in situ at locations where it is currently operational so that we can verify that the equipment performs to the specification set out in the tender documentation. Once we are satisfied that it does that, we will award the contract to that contractor. There is a short standstill period of 10 days during which the decision can be challenged. As soon as 10 days have passed — I think that it may have been changed to eight days under the new regulations — we will immediately get into discussions with the contractor. Within six weeks, we have to agree the programme for rolling out the equipment to Hydebank, Mallusk and the remaining test centres. I hope that we will be able to agree with the contractor a minimal viable product for the opening of the Hydebank test centre. We will do, essentially, the bare minimum to get Hydebank opened. We will circle back to Hydebank at a later date and update the software and any equipment that needs to be updated. I do not want to put a date on when Hydebank will be open —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I noticed that in your clever answer.

Mr Delaney: — but I hope that a car will go through the Hydebank test centre before the summer of next year.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Wow. That is useful. I was going to give you the options of six months, a year and three years, but that answers my question.

Mr Delaney: I do not think that I would have a job if it were three years.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. The meeting is being recorded by Hansard, so you have to be careful with those things.

I am cognisant that, when witnesses come to Committee, it is about finding holes in their evidence and that, sometimes, things can get a little contentious. Annex A sets out the key performance targets for 2025-26:

Is that what you deliver? If that is the case, that is astounding customer service. Is that a target, or is that what you deliver? I do not know whether you are madly flicking through the documents to find annex A to your business plan for 2025-26, but I have read out to you what is in it. Is what you are currently delivering, or is that what you aspire to?

Mr Logan: That is what we are delivering. The target is 97%. We do not have much wriggle room to drop on that. Last year, somewhere in the region of 670 complaints went through our two-stage complaints procedure. There are more stage-1 complaints, which are looked at and replied to at the business area level. I, as the chief executive of the organisation, sign off on all of the stage-2 complaints, so I see them and am very much pushed by my customer services team to ensure that I meet those deadlines. Those were the performance-to-date figures at the end of September.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I suspect that some arm's-length bodies (ALBs) would cut their right arm off to achieve those figures. That is impressive for a front-facing organisation that deals with a lot of customers. I do not know whether you have the figures for how many people go through test centres, for example, but I imagine that it is quite a few every year.

Jeremy, you look as though you are going to have a guess.

Mr Logan: I am not going to guess. We have somewhere in the region of two million customer transactions through driving tests, vehicle tests and driver licensing transactions. It is a significant number.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It is. That is impressive. Well done on that one.

My final issue came through my constituency office, but it applies to Northern Ireland in its totality, so I thought that it was worth raising with you. Jeremy, you wrote to me recently about it. This is for clarity and so that I have a little more understanding. It is a detailed issue, so I hope that members will bear with me. For members' benefit, it is about drivers and disqualifications and licensing, although that will become apparent from my line of questioning. If a person is disqualified from driving in the Republic but normally resides in the Republic, the Road Safety Authority (RSA), which is the southern DVA, does not send those details up to our DVA. However, if that person is normally resident in Northern Ireland, it will do that, so, if somebody goes down there, gets caught and gets disqualified, the details will come up. Am I right so far?

Mr Logan: Yes. There is a bilateral agreement on mutual recognition between the UK and Ireland that came into force on 1 August 2017. The licensing authority down south, as you advised, is the Road Safety Authority, and we are the licensing authority in Northern Ireland. If someone from Northern Ireland is caught or disqualified from driving in the South, there should be mutual recognition and vice versa. However, there are some nuances and challenges in that regard. Driver licensing, as you will appreciate, is complex.

If a person who resides in Ireland is caught in Ireland with an Irish licence and has no residency in Northern Ireland or Northern Ireland driving licence, the disqualification will not be captured under that mutual recognition agreement. If that person moves to Northern Ireland, they can apply for a licence and the disqualification will not necessarily carry through.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is a useful answer. Essentially, you are saying that somebody could be disqualified in the South but move to Northern Ireland or perhaps be driving around Northern Ireland and we would have no way under that agreement of capturing that information. That is not a criticism of the DVA because, obviously, you are operating within the law.

Mr Logan: That is correct.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Can someone hold a licence in each jurisdiction?

Mr Logan: No, they cannot. Someone can drive in Northern Ireland on their Southern licence. If they then become a resident of Northern Ireland, they have to exchange their Irish driving licence for a UK or Northern Ireland driving licence.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): If someone has a Southern licence, can they come up to Northern Ireland and drive for a long time on that? If someone has a house in Dublin and a house in Belfast, is there an understanding that they can come up to Northern Ireland and drive around on their Southern licence?

Mr Logan: They can but not if they are disqualified from driving on their Irish licence, in which case they will have no entitlement to drive and cannot drive anywhere because they have no licence.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK, that is fine.

I will read out a paragraph that the Minister sent to me recently on the issue. You will probably be aware of this from your core work, so I will read it out to get your view or explanation because it is a complex issue. Committee members are probably wondering where I am going with this, but I will read it out:

Can you explain that in slightly more understandable terms, Jeremy? Can you have a go at that?

Mr Logan: I can, certainly. It is at this point that I regret that the director of driver licensing is not sitting here, but I will give you the benefit of my understanding.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK.

Mr Logan: The point, which, I think, was set out in the Minister's correspondence, is that the mutual recognition instrument comes into effect at the time of disqualification. However, when we receive an application — in this case we are talking about an exchange of a driving licence — from someone who has moved from Ireland to Northern Ireland and wants to exchange their licence, we will check to see whether that licence has been disqualified and if there is any reason for us to not process that application. However, we cannot take into consideration a disqualification that may have been reported under the mutual recognition agreement but was not because it did not meet the terms of the agreement at that time; that is to say that, at the time of the disqualification, the person neither was resident in Northern Ireland nor held a Northern Irish driving licence.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): This is my final question before I hand over to Cathal. If someone who is driving in the South, holds a licence in the South and is disqualified in the South comes up to Northern Ireland and thinks, "I'd quite like a driving licence up here" and applies for one, would their disqualification be captured by the DVA under the legislation?

Mr Logan: My understanding is that, yes, if the disqualification applied to a Southern licence at that time, the information would be captured. In the context of the mutual agreement, that would be reported to us, and we would create the record. If the person did not have a licence at all at the time of disqualification, however, that information would not be sent to us under the mutual recognition of disqualifications.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is useful. You are saying that, if someone was driving illegally in the South because they had been disqualified from driving and therefore did not have a driving licence — we are talking about someone who is extremely dangerous, because they are driving without a licence — it is possible that that information would not be captured by DVA in the North. They could then, in theory, apply for and perhaps get a driving licence up here. I am not being critical of DVA, as you have to operate within the legislation here, but am I right to say that that would be possible?

Mr Logan: That is correct.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thanks very much for that. I apologise to Committee members, whose heads are spinning as they wonder what on earth that was all about, but it was useful to get that clarity. Thanks very much, guys.

Mr Boylan: Thanks very much for your presentation. You are welcome back. Always remember, Pat, that pressure is only for tyres. [Laughter.]

I will pick up on two points. You have answered questions about the new test centre at Mallusk. I know that there are no conclusions from the consultation on biennial testing, but will you expand on the themes that arose from it? If we were to go down the route of introducing biennial testing, what impact would that have on capacity and pressures?

Mr Logan: First and foremost, the consultation was taken forward by the Department, not the agency. I believe that the Committee is scheduled to receive a briefing on that before Christmas. We will certainly feed back information on any impact that it has had on us. With the temporary exemption certificates that are currently in play for five- and seven-year-old cars, we already have biennial testing for some categories of vehicle.

We have finite capacity across our test centre network. That will increase when Hydebank and Mallusk come online. We will, hopefully, ensure that those test centres are fully operational and have a combined minimum capacity that allows them to test an extra 200,000 vehicles. To do that, we will be required to bring in additional vehicle examiners to provide that service. At the minute, however, because of the demand for the services, we have reached saturation point for the 15 operational test centres, so it is not having a significant financial impact on us. In the longer term, we would, of course, have to assess and monitor the impact of the cost of the additional examiners and of the additional tests. We would have to monitor that to review our fees at some point. We did that most recently in October 2023. We just have to keep that under control.

One of the big challenges for us in meeting the demand for testing comes not from the impact on infrastructure but from the recruitment and retention of vehicle examiners. That is becoming a challenge, as we have mentioned at the Committee before.

Mr Boylan: I appreciate that. Obviously, the Department is responsible for it, but you have given your full analysis, and you will play your part through that response.

Can you talk about the taxi industry?

Mr Logan: We can certainly try [Laughter.]

It depends on the issue.

Mr Boylan: You may not have the figure for driver badges, but I ask this in the context of there being challenges for the industry: how many driver badges have been handed out? Can you give a figure? There is a second part to that question: how do we encourage people back into the industry? I lined up the questions first in case you did not have the detail. How many badges are out there? What can we do to encourage people back into the industry? I ask that because we hear that there are challenges in the industry.

Mr Logan: I do not have the numbers in front of me and do not want to give out an incorrect figure. The number of taxi driver licences issued has been in decline for some time. I think that it has plateaued at in and around 7,000, but I would qualify that figure. All of that information is available in the official statistics that are published. The most recent publication was in September, so the tables are there, Cathal, and we can provide you with that information after the meeting.

Obviously, we are responsible for the licensing and enforcement of the industry, but we do not have any control over the numbers that come into the industry and the reasons for that. There are elements that we touch on, such as the theory test that taxi drivers have to pass to enter the industry. To be honest with you, from an enforcement and compliance perspective, we are not getting much kickback from the industry. Our enforcement teams are working well with the industry doing taximeter tests and night-time economy enforcement operations, which have been well received by the licensed industry.

We talked here many years ago about pirate taxis and the problems that they create. We are alert to those issues, which is why some of the enforcement targets identified in our business plan focus on some of those areas. The ongoing issue of how to attract more drivers into the industry is one that we, as an agency, cannot really influence too much. Our job, through the approaches that we take, is to ensure that the industry is compliant and that there is fair competition.

Mr Boylan: I appreciate that. That is why I lined up the question for you to answer. We have a job to do, and I appreciate your stance. As a Committee, there is a challenge there for us, and we hear that from time to time. As I said, we want to know the numbers in the industry and what we can do to encourage people back into it. I have got the answers for now.

Mr Harvey: Chair, you covered a lot of my questions on the completion and opening dates for the Mallusk and Hydebank test centres. Will you tell me a bit more about Hydebank? It has been talked about for a long time. Why has there such a delay in its opening?

Mr Logan: Pat has lived and breathed this for the past number of years, so I will let him respond on that one.

Mr Delaney: Technically, Hydebank is open and has been since April 2024. We have been conducting driving tests out of Hydebank since April 2024. The part of Hydebank that, unfortunately, we have not been able to open is the part that will be used for vehicle testing.

You may recall that we were in a contract with Worldwide Environmental Products to supply, install, commission and calibrate the equipment along with the associated software and hardware for the Hydebank test centre. That contract has not been successful: we were unhappy with the performance of the company and terminated the contract on 9 October of last year. The company then took out an injunction against us, declaring the termination to be unlawful. The hearing on that was due to be heard in January of this year. It was adjourned on a couple of occasions, and, before the hearing was due to be heard in February, counsel for Worldwide Environmental Products approached us and asked whether we would consider a negotiated settlement. We did that and terminated the contract by mutual agreement.

From our perspective, we did everything humanly possible to assist Worldwide Environmental Products in completing its obligations under the contract, and it was unable to do so, hence the termination of the contract. We are in the latter stages of completing the new contract with a new supplier. As I said earlier, I am hopeful that we will have the Hydebank test centre open before the summer of next year.

Mr Harvey: Was the Worldwide Environmental Products contract just for Hydebank and not any of the other test centres?

Mr Delaney: It was due to be used for all of the test centres. The contract was for Hydebank, Mallusk and any other new test centres that we were considering building. It was also for the roll-out and replacement of vehicle-testing equipment and IT software and hardware in the remaining test centres. That contract, in its entirety, has been terminated.

Mr Harvey: Did that mean changing all or most of the equipment in Hydebank?

Mr Delaney: As part of the settlement, Worldwide Environmental Products had to remove the equipment that it had installed. It was our view that that equipment did not meet the specification and/or was not safe for our staff to use. Therefore, as part of the settlement, it removed the equipment and returned it to Spain.

Mr Harvey: Very good. Thank you.

I will move on, if I may, to a wee question on biennial testing. Cathal teased out a lot of it, but is there any evidence from other jurisdictions of the operation of biennial testing and any corresponding impact on the roadworthiness of vehicles or detriment to road safety?

Mr Logan: I can provide some response to that, Harry. Biennial testing is used in a lot of jurisdictions throughout Europe, as it is, indeed, in Ireland. The Department will have more detailed information on pass rates; we can comment only on the information that we hold. We are looking at vehicles that were issued with a temporary exemption certificate and have now come back into the testing arena after two years. Surprisingly, anecdotally at least and on the initial evidence, the pass rate after two years has slightly increased. We are considering surveying those customers to ask, "What was your attitude to MOT testing in terms of servicing and maintaining your car during that period? Did your attitude change?". There has not been any great detriment to the pass rate for the cars that have returned. Bear it in mind that the cars are five and seven years old, so they are pretty fresh and, if they are looked after, should not present a problem. The pass rate for that group of vehicles is high generally. It is interesting, as we start to look at those figures coming back in, to see that it does not seem to have had a major impact on the overall pass rate.

Mr Harvey: OK. Thank you very much.

Mr Dunne: Thank you, folks, for coming in again. I know that it has been a wee while since you were here, and it is good to hear of progress and things moving the right way. The additional measures — staff recruitment, temporary exemption certificates and so on — are welcome. We have pushed for years in here to reduce appointment waiting times for testing vehicles and drivers. What I want to establish is whether the temporary exemption certificates are now permanent.

Mr Logan: No, they are not. We had to write to the Minister at the start of this year, given some of the issues with the delay in opening Hydebank and Mallusk, to strongly advise extending the use of temporary exemption certificates to keep MOT waiting times at a manageable level. Clearly, we will have to review progress in the new year. With the opening of Hydebank and Mallusk and the recruitment of additional vehicle examiners, we will move away, hopefully, from the use of temporary exemption certificates. That is certainly the intention and the plan. The timing will very much depend on our engagement with the new contractors and on when we get Hydebank and Mallusk open. The extended exemption certificates came into effect from 1 June and will start to expire on 31 May. With the booking window, there is a three-month lead-in to MOTs, so we will have to make a decision on that and advise the Minister of the position in quarter 1 of next year.

Mr Dunne: Will the temporary exemption certificates decision and the biennial testing be linked in any way, or are they separate?

Mr Logan: They are entirely separate.

Mr Dunne: What input will DVA have on any recommendations on biennial testing that will go to the Minister on the back of the consultation?

Mr Logan: The Department will present the recommendations. It has asked questions similar to those that Cathal raised about the financial impact on us. That will very much depend on the costs of additional examiners and new equipment etc that we will have to factor in. As a trading fund, we have to recover the cost through the fees that we charge our customers, so biennial testing, if it were to be introduced, might well involve us having to review our vehicle testing fees, but that is a big "if", and the matter is still under consideration.

Mr Dunne: I know that it is outside your control, but is there any indication of a time frame for the decision on biennial testing?

Mr Logan: I am not in a position to comment. That is a matter for the Department.

Mr Dunne: OK. I appreciate that the contract issue has been going on for some time. Does the new contract include the management, maintenance and upgrading of the other 79 lanes?

Mr Logan: It does indeed. Our focus will be on Hydebank and Mallusk, and then, once we are satisfied that the equipment in both of those test centres is working to our satisfaction and the requirements of the contract, we will agree a roll-out plan with the contractor to replace the equipment in the remainder of our 15 test centres.

Mr Dunne: OK. Missed MOT appointments are another issue that have been highlighted recently. The figures are alarming: 36,000 tests were missed last year, which is significant. Are there any measures in place or thoughts on how to reduce that? It ultimately impacts on the availability of slots for everybody.

Mr Logan: I can certainly provide some input, and Pat might want to add some things on the back of that. Yes, it is a constant frustration for us, given the pressures that we have. The figure last financial year — let me quote so that I do not misquote it — was closer to 50,000. That has stayed pretty constant over the past three years, and we have seen a noticeable increase in that since before COVID. We have taken steps by introducing a new booking and rostering system, and we have a reminder system that has been built into that. In July 2023, you opted in to get reminders. We have now switched that around, so you have to opt out if you do not want to get a reminder. By default, you will get a reminder two days before your MOT is due.

We also surveyed a sample of the customers who were failing to attend. There is a variety of reasons — the vehicle was not ready; there was illness; there were other commitments that came up — so there is not a consistent message as to why that is happening. I suppose that the MOT fee still represents pretty good value for money: it is £38, so people are prepared to lose that fee if they cannot attend their appointment. That said, we are also looking at the legislation, which dictates that there is a one-clear-working-day cancellation policy in place: if you cancel your appointment, you have to give one clear working day's notice. Because we have moved to a much more digital system and the demand for appointments is high, we reduced that from the start of this month to a four-hour cancellation period to help customers if they want to cancel their appointments. We will monitor that closely over the next couple of months to see the impact that that has on those who fail to appear. We will probably not see the outcome of how that has impacted on waiting times until quarter 3. We are keeping a close eye on that. Unfortunately, it is, to some extent, out of our control.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that. The average time is still around a month, then — 30 days.

Mr Logan: It is around that. Our business plan target for the whole year is to keep the waiting time, on average, below 35 days.

Mr Dunne: It is certainly a good improvement on a few years ago. Just as a final thing — I think that we said this the last time — it is a better experience for people now, when your crew come out and take the keys from people and, ultimately, do the test. That is an improvement in the overall experience for car users. I commend you on that. It certainly works.

Mr Logan: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): On that, I always miss the abject humiliation of being at a test centre when the guy says, "Will you open the boot on your wife's car?", and I have no idea where the boot release lever is, so you have certainly saved me from that in the change as well.

Mr Boylan: You can take those figures as well, Jeremy. [Laughter.]

Write that down.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is one of the benefits.

Mr Delaney: That is one of the benefits, because people thought that they were being tested, rather than the car.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Absolutely.

Mr McMurray: My van went through last week, so I am pleased with that. It is one of the most stressful days of the year; I am not going to lie.

Mr Boylan: What figures are we logging here? [Inaudible.]

Mr McMurray: On that, is there a trend in general roadworthiness, and are there common areas of non-compliance? Are there specific areas that vehicles fail on that a public awareness campaign might help?

Mr Logan: I thought that you would ask that question, so I have a table prepared on the most common failure reasons in the past three years. We answered a freedom of information request on it recently. It has not changed in the past three years. The top eight are the same, and I will list them quickly: suspension system; body/chassis; fuel exhaust system; engine transmission system; electrical systems; brake systems; brake tests; and wheels, tyres and hubs. The last two are headlamp tests and steering system. There is a commonality in the issues that come up at the tests. The overall test pass rate has not really changed. Last year, it was 81·5%; the year before, it was 82·5%; and the year before that, it was 82·4%, so it is very much that one in five cars that present for tests fail.

Mr McMurray: Is that people just going along and getting the car tested, knowing full well that it is not right? How does that affect the road safety trends?

Mr Delaney: Jeremy referred to the fee for the MOT. At £38, the fee is still good value for money for someone to make the decision to go along to DVA; get us to give them a list of the things that are wrong with the vehicle — list the defects; go and get those defects and only those defects fixed; and then present the car for retesting and the car will then pass the MOT. The MOT is not a guarantee or a warranty; it is a moment in time when that vehicle meets the minimum standards as set out in law for road safety and environmental conditions. That vehicle could be unroadworthy several days later. For example, your tyres may be just above the legal limit when your car is tested, and, at that point in time, they meet the legal requirement, but they could be below it several days later.

Our vehicle examiners look at whether the vehicle meets the minimum standard. A mechanic will look at the vehicle in a completely different way. A mechanic will look at it in the context of whether a component will last until the next service, and, if not, what other damage that component will do to the vehicle in the meantime or what impact it will have on the road safety of the vehicle. They are two completely different things. We are trying to get across to people that, as the owner and keeper of the vehicle, it is their lawful responsibility to ensure that it is in a roadworthy condition at all times and not just on the day that it goes through one of our test centres.

Mr McMurray: There is a section on driver licences and fraud, which has been highlighted. Have any safeguards been introduced? How was the previous fraud identified? How many licences were involved? What is the cost to the public?

Mr Logan: I appreciate that it is a question that has come up before. It is an ongoing investigation, so I cannot comment any further on that at this stage. However, suffice it to say that we received a report in September 2024 about an allegation that a number of candidates did not sit their driving test and satisfy a competency to drive but were subsequently issued with driving licences. That was investigated internally through the anti-fraud policy and fraud response plan. On the basis of evidence from trained investigators in the enforcement section of the agency, that was then reported to the PSNI, and we are now working closely with it on that ongoing criminal investigation. I do not wish to be evasive, but, as an investigation is ongoing, I cannot provide any more detail.

Mr McNulty: Thanks Siobhan, Jeremy and Pat. Jeremy, we played together many years ago for Queen's GAA. Have I got the right Jeremy Logan?

Mr Logan: I do not think so.

Mr McNulty: It must be a different one. OK. Oops.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Justin, if it is any help, I went to school with a Jeremy Logan. Were we in school together, Jeremy?

Mr Boylan: I do not know whether Hansard can record this or not, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I am not sure either.

Mr Logan: I did not think that there were that many of us about.

Mr Delaney: Chair, he does not remember me from one day to the next. [Laughter.]

Mr Boylan: Selective memory there.

Mr McNulty: Apologies. Is the average MOT waiting time of 35 days consistent across test centres, or are some test centres performing better than others?

Mr Logan: There are some variations. That is the average waiting time across the network. Some test centres will have slightly longer waiting times, and some will have slightly shorter waiting times. That is the average. The waiting times fluctuate depending on resources and availability at each test centre on any given day. Pat analyses the reports with monotonous frequency. We will move examiners around the network where we find that a test centre is under pressure and waiting times are moving out whereas another test centre is performing well below that target. Therefore, it is a continuous effort to monitor the situation. In answer to your question, it is across the board.

Mr McNulty: What is the current processing time for a full driving licence?

Mr Logan: It depends. If it is a straightforward driving licence, which we referred to in the business plan target update, we are turning around 93·5% of those within 10 days, on the basis of quarter 1 performance, for a postal application. For an online driving application, we are turning around 99·1% of those within five days.

It becomes more complex if medical issues have been declared. Those matters may need to be referred to our medical advisers for assessment. We obviously have to assess that a person is medically fit to drive before a licence can be issued. People are driving for longer with more complex medical conditions, so those medical assessments can take some time. We have key performance indicators (KPIs) with our contractor that are based on the initial assessment of the case taking 14 days, and the contractor is performing well on that basis. However, that initial assessment may require further information from GPs, further specialist medical assessments or a driving assessment. It can depend on the medical conditions that are identified as part of the application.

Mr McNulty: I am sorry for flitting back to the MOTs, but I think of a little old lady whose MOT is expiring in the coming weeks and who cannot get booked into a test centre. She might be worried that she cannot continue to drive. Is there a 'Sesame Street'-simple flow chart that tells people what timelines are involved and whether they are eligible to continue driving? Is there a graphic on your website that we can share and that shows people what the timelines involved are and whether they are eligible to continue driving?

Mr Logan: We issue a courtesy reminder six weeks in advance of the MOT appointment. In that, there is a small A5 leaflet which identifies the different scenarios in those situations. For example, you might be concerned that you cannot get an MOT date before you need to tax your car: the leaflet identifies the process that you should follow to request a short-notice appointment. That has worked well for us over the past 18 months. We are not seeing as many of those requests coming through, because the waiting times have settled down. The information is contained in that advice leaflet. It is also replicated on nidirect. I am not saying that things cannot be improved. We can certainly look to see whether anything more can be done. We try to keep it as simple as we can in line with the format of nidirect. The information is there, and it is received by each customer in advance of their MOT booking.

Mr Delaney: To reinforce the procedure that we have in place, we have worked with the PSNI and the insurers' bureau on this. As long as you have an appointment with us, you can continue to drive the vehicle. If you are asked to produce evidence of that by the police, you will have an email or a printed copy that shows that you have an appointment.

Setting aside what Jeremy said about tax, where you will need to have the vehicle taxed and we have the short-notice appointment, once you receive a reminder, you should book an MOT appointment. Once you have paid for that appointment and got a notification from us of the date, time, test centre and lane, you can continue to drive your car until it is due for testing.

Mr Logan: To that I add the condition that the PSNI and insurers insist, as do we, that the vehicle must be in a roadworthy condition. That remains the vehicle owner's responsibility at all times.

Mr McNulty: Thank you. I turn to the procurement debacle. What has been the cost of that to the Department from a time perspective and a financial perspective?

Mr Logan: We identified that in the "Significant Issues" section of the annual report and accounts. Pat advised of the negotiated settlement of £1·5 million that was agreed. That essentially terminated the contract. As part of the auditing process on the accounts last year, they looked at the other constructive losses that we had incurred since the contract was awarded in March 2019. Over the past seven years, that was estimated to be £3·6 million. A lot of that was to do with staff costs, legal and professional fees, and delays to the contract for the opening of the Hydebank test centre. Things had to be put in place, because that test centre was designed to be equipped with the Worldwide equipment, meaning that changes had to be made throughout the construction project. That is how that was broken down.

Mr McNulty: So it was a £5·1 million cost to the Department.

Mr Logan: That money would have come directly from the DVA trading fund.

Mr McNulty: I turn to the driver licence fraud piece. Obviously, we cannot go into too much detail because of the ongoing proceedings. It is a frightening development. We all recognise the advantages of AI and embrace it in our lives and work, where appropriate. Has an AI risk management audit been completed by the Department? Has there been a process of systematically identifying, mitigating and addressing the potential risks of fraud that AI presents which might potentially impact the DVA?

Mr Logan: We have a number of fraud controls in place, though not so much to do with AI, across our systems. We have invited internal audit to deliver anti-fraud awareness training to all our staff, and that is well under way. It has been delivered to all our test centre teams and will be rolled out across the rest of the agency. We have a number of controls and are constantly monitoring patterns, behaviours and the pass rates of examiners right across the network to see whether there are any trends. Unfortunately, things do happen, and then we have to see whether there are any lessons that we can learn in order to close some of those gaps. I have also identified that in our audit plan this year. Our internal audit will come in and look at the controls that we have in place and give us its assessment of their adequacy and whether there is anything else that we can do to tighten up those controls to prevent those types of things from happening again. They are being closely monitored. It was through the efforts of our trained investigators that we identified that fraud, dealt with the staffing issue very swiftly and were able to put a comprehensive case to the police to investigate. We will support them through that investigation. If any further lessons are learned, we will certainly take those on board.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Harry, did you want to come back in?

Mr Harvey: Yes. I just have a short one, Chair.

You said that your waiting time is 30 days, on average, but I must admit — and it is to your credit — that, if you needed an MOT today or tomorrow, and you were willing to drive and not go to your nearest centre, generally you could get one. That is always very good. With regard to your testing equipment, you talked about people maybe rocking up in their car and not having had it checked for MOT. A mechanic with a jack is never going to find what you guys find. Your test is very stringent and very good. When a vehicle passes the MOT, you can have confidence that it is a good, safe vehicle. I appreciate what you are doing. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I have one last question, and then that is us, folks. It relates to your target 13:

You have highlighted the fact that that was not achieved. I think that it was due to the removal of resource subsidy funding by the Department at a quantum of around £500,000. Would you describe the removal of that resource subsidy funding as planned or as a surprise from the Department?

Mr Logan: Under the conditions and the financial position in 2024, it was an exceptional circumstance. The subsidy funding has been restored for this year, which is good news. When it comes to the impact on those targets, we could not possibly break even when we had — I do not know what the figure was. Siobhan will have those figures to hand.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It was £500,000.

Mr Logan: It was more than that.

Ms Siobhan Lynn (Driver and Vehicle Agency): The £500,000 is what we received in funding.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Right.

Ms Lynn: The funding shortfall was £7·8 million —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Right.

Ms Lynn: — which was —.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Quite significant.

Ms Lynn: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Sorry: I interrupted you, Jeremy. You were giving your answer.

Mr Logan: I was just saying that it was quite a big number. Once you took £7·8 million out of the trading fund, we were never going to meet the two financial targets that we did not meet last year.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I understand that. You mentioned that it has been restored for this year?

Mr Logan: It has been, yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is great. That is useful. Thank you.

Folks, that is it. Thank you very much for coming along to Committee this morning. That was a really useful session, certainly from my perspective. The Committee may have some additional questions, but we will have a chat about that.

Mr Boylan: I am surprised that Harry did not ask about classic vehicles.

Mr Delaney: I had a page prepared on it, Harry. [Laughter.]

We have had discussion about classic and vintage vehicles for some time.

Mr Boylan: Hansard is finished now.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Some poor soul in DVA had a whole two pages on lines to take on classic car —.

Mr Boylan: Absolutely.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): We want to apologise to that person.

Mr Delaney: I have moved from productivity with Keith to vintage vehicles for Harry.

Mr Harvey: Be careful.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thanks very much for coming in, folks. That was really useful.