Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I welcome to the meeting Detective Chief Superintendent Zoë McKee, head of the public protection branch and programme lead for the PSNI race and ethnicity action plan; Chief Superintendent Sue-Ann Steen, north area commander and the Police Service's hate crime lead; and Ms Gillian Magee, the assistant director of human resources. Thank you very much for your briefing, and for supplying the actual plan. You can go ahead and make your opening remarks.

Detective Chief Superintendent Zoë McKee (Police Service of Northern Ireland): Thank you for the opportunity to brief the Committee on the Police Service of Northern Ireland's race and ethnicity action plan and to outline how we are taking this important piece of work forward. The Chair has already introduced my colleagues. Chief Superintendent Sue-Ann Steen will speak to local policing and operational delivery. Gillian Magee leads on workforce matters and organisational development. Collectively, we represent the strategic, operational and people leadership within this work.

I begin by acknowledging the deeply concerning scenes of race-related disorder and violence that Northern Ireland has witnessed in recent years — incidents that have caused genuine fear and distress within our ethnic minority communities. The Police Service has been unequivocal in its position. We have condemned the behaviour in the strongest possible terms and called it for what it is — racist thuggery, pure and simple. The Police Service has been unequivocal in that position, and we know the damage that those incidents can cause, not only to individuals and communities but to public confidence in policing. They serve as a stark reminder of why a plan, such as that that we are discussing today, is essential.

Our race and ethnicity action plan is a key part of our commitment to fairness, inclusion and equality across the Police Service. It is not a new initiative, in isolation. Rather, it brings together years of focused activity and engagement and provides a clear, structured framework for how we will continue to embed anti-racism, equity and representation in all areas of policing; how we recruit and support our people; and how we engage and protect our communities. The plan's purpose is simple: to ensure that policing in Northern Ireland is a service for everyone — one that reflects the communities that we serve, upholds the highest standards of professionalism and earns public trust through action, not just words.

The plan was developed through extensive engagement and consultation within our organisation and across the community. We spoke to officers and staff at all levels of the Police Service, including members of our ethnic minority police association. They played an integral and invaluable role in shaping our priorities. Externally, we met community representatives and leaders, advocacy groups and civic partners, ensuring that lived experiences informed our thinking from the beginning.

In October 2024, a draft version of the plan was published for an eight-week public consultation. We received over 90 formal responses, which represented individuals, community groups and organisations across Northern Ireland. Those responses were not short or symbolic, but thoughtful, detailed and, in many cases, deeply personal. They represented the hopes and frustrations of people who want to see meaningful change in how policing responds to ethnic minorities communities. The consultation highlighted several key themes, including the need for stronger accountability, better representation and a more visible anti-racist leadership.

We listened carefully to that feedback. We published the findings on our website and used them to inform the final version of the plan that you see today. That was launched, publicly, on 7 August this year. We also want to put on record that we are very grateful to everyone who took the time to contribute, and we remain committed to ensuring that the engagement continues throughout the delivery and the lifespan of the plan over the next five years, not just through that consultation stage.

We have also learned from and aligned with colleagues across UK policing who are leading on the national police race action plan, ensuring that our approach benefits from national experience and learning but is also tailored to Northern Ireland's unique context. You might think, "Why race and ethnicity?". We made a deliberate choice to frame our work as a race and ethnicity action plan rather than as a race action plan focused solely on black communities. That decision recognises that, while anti-black racism must continue to be directly addressed, we are taking an inclusive, evidence-based and locally relevant approach, ensuring that no voice or community is overlooked and that the plan reflects the full spectrum of ethnic minority experiences in Northern Ireland.

The plan sets out five key commitments for us as an organisation. The first one is the most important one, namely that we are committed to being an anti-racist police service. The next one is that we are committed to people from ethnic minority backgrounds feeling safe, valued and engaged in policing. We are also committed to officers and staff from ethnic minority backgrounds feeling safe, valued and treated fairly and equally in the workplace. We are committed to being a police service that respects and is trusted by people from ethnic minority communities, and we are a police service that is committed to representation and inclusivity.

Delivery is structured through five work streams, and I am sure that, through the questions, we can get into further detail. Each of those work streams is led by senior officers and staff who are pioneering this work because they recognise that it is important and they want to make a difference. They are also supported by wider ethnic minority police association officers and staff, who provide invaluable insights of lived experience and also provide advice. The work streams cover internal culture and inclusivity; community engagement and relations; professional powers and policy; protection, partnership and justice; and performance and accountability. The plan's governance is overseen by the race and ethnicity action plan programme board, which I co-chair alongside Ms Jane McDonald, who is head of diversity, equality and inclusion, and that ensures a formal framework for leadership, delivery and external scrutiny, including oversight from the Northern Ireland Policing Board and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.

For information, Chair and members, the plan is not a stand-alone policy document. It is a living framework for change that is grounded in the values of respect, equity, accountability and professionalism. It is about ensuring that every person, whether a member of the public, a police officer or a community partner, experiences policing that is fair, proportionate and inclusive. We recognise that the true test of the plan will not be in its publication but in its implementation and its outcomes. The hard work has already begun, and we are determined to deliver real, lasting progress.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide this briefing. We now welcome any questions.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you very much. Before I ask my first question, I will declare an interest: my husband works for Deloitte on the recruitment process for the PSNI.

The action plan, in the Chief Constable's foreword and elsewhere, talks about recruitment. The action plan says:

I represent South Belfast, where we have seen quite a lot of racist incidents. I have great working relationships with and the utmost respect for the policing team in South Belfast, but I am not seeing many people of colour from different ethnic backgrounds. What is happening in real time to build the capacity of people so that, when they go to the interview panels, for example, they can get through the different stages of the recruitment process? How are you supporting them to make applications in the first place?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: First, I will put on record that we are seeing less than 1% of representation within the organisation across police officers and staff. That is a recognised issue for us, and we acknowledge that we want to concentrate on that in retention, progression and recruitment. I will pass you across to Gillian, who can speak to that.

Ms Gillian Magee (Police Service of Northern Ireland): I will pick up on what Zoë said. In line with the representativeness of Northern Ireland, about 3·6% of the working-age population states that they come from a minority ethnic background, and that aligns with our application process. We are attracting numbers representative of society. However, once we get into the application process, we are not clear on why people drop out. They either withdraw from the process themselves or do not meet the criteria in that process. A key element of the plan is to understand and unpack the issues around that and to understand what supports we need to put in place.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): The vital part of that is about the supports that should be put in place. Getting and understanding statistics on dropping out is one thing, but it is really about being proactive.

Ms Magee: Absolutely.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): There is some great community infrastructure when it comes to accessing people.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Our first work stream is about inclusivity and representation, and it is dedicated to that particular point. The second work stream is community engagement and relations. It is about how we reach those hard-to-reach communities and ensure that their experience of policing is positive and that it makes them want to join the Police Service. It is about how we can become an employer of choice. We are very alive to that. Our next recruitment campaign will very much be in the space of preparing people for that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Of getting people prepared for the application?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Yes.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Another part of the plan talks about:

It also talks about:

Again, in South Belfast, people are being put out of their houses or greatly intimidated. It is not the perpetrators — the people who terrorise them — but those individuals who have to leave their homes and their place of safety. Will you speak to the enhanced role that you could and should play when it comes to the displacement of people?

Chief Superintendent Sue-Ann Steen (Police Service of Northern Ireland): I will take that one, if you do not mind. Yes, I completely agree. There are great challenges around that issue, not just in South Belfast but in other parts of Northern Ireland. We have a role in that, because, fundamentally, we are there to keep people safe. It is extremely challenging to hear that individuals are afraid to leave the house for fear of being ridiculed. There is, however, a part for community representatives to play in that area as well through a wider integration plan. As the Chief Constable has said and as you are probably aware, policing has to be the last resort when those things happen, because if we have to intervene, we have lost that battle.

We are very committed. We have put in additional patrols and done an awful lot of engagement work. As I am sure that you are aware. Superintendent Dornan, in Belfast, has done a significant amount of work with Belfast City Council and other partners. There has to be a partnership approach. That is not us shying away from our responsibility to keep people safe, but the issue in the round is bigger than just policing. Others need to get around the table with us. That is part of our broader strategic work with TEO on the consequence management group and on trying to provide a wrap-around service for individuals who are impacted on. We will continue to dedicate resources, time and effort to making people feel safe in their homes. That is challenging, but we will continue to do it for as long as we have to.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): As you know, I have an issue with the term "community workers", and I was a community worker.

Chief Superintendent Steen: I —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I want to make my point. There are people who legitimately work in communities and try their best. They do not have the power that a lot of people think that they have when it comes to standing up to people who are in organised crime gangs and paramilitary organisations.

The other side of that is that, as I have said before, some people are community workers by day and paramilitaries by night. I want to see a more robust, tough stance being taken when people are targeted in their home. It is not about when they are going about their business but when they are there. I will not labour the point, because I know that Superintendent Dornan is doing great work on that and others have indicated that they want to come in.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: There is also an element of doing prevention in that space before it gets to that stage. Some of the ongoing work in South Belfast and right across the board needs to be highlighted. Our justice work stream is not just about equal access for victims from ethnic minority backgrounds; an element is built into the plan about how we target offenders in that space.

That was played out after the Ballymena riots in the summer. At the minute, over 100 people are charged with offences for those riots. We are taking a robust stance on that because we are clear that there is no place for racist attack incidents or anything hate-motivated in Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I have one last question about what may be a more systemic issue around communication. People will report incidents that may seem quite minor as a one-off, but when you are living with that — as you said, going down the street and being intimidated — if, as the Committee has heard, you make a report and then do not get a follow-up, you do not know what happened. Has that plan strengthened the communication processes?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: We have a bespoke communications plan as part of the plan itself on how we are reporting on our progress. We have the formal mechanisms in our accountability bodies, through the Equality Commission and the Northern Ireland Policing Board. We have national people coming in and assessing us on how we are doing against our own marking and the maturity matrix, which is a national framework for how we are delivering against the plan.

Speaking to your point, this is about what people experience and how they feel when walking down the street. It is not just the crime and the incidents; it is their feelings and perception of safety. With that in mind, we have regular listening and engagement events dedicated to local communities. Within the work stream for community engagement and listening, that is how we dock in best. We are looking at developing a community reference group so that we can hear of the lived experiences and things as they are happening. That is not taking away from the brilliant relationships on the ground with local commanders and neighbourhood policing teams that are really docked into the problems in live time.

Mr Dickson: Thank you very much for joining us. This is an important topic today, and it has been an important topic for quite some time, given all the incidents that have occurred right across the UK and, disappointingly, here in Northern Ireland. As a Police Service, that plan is important because you point in two directions: externally into the community but also internally into your own organisation. By your own admission, your recruitment from a variety of ethnic backgrounds and others is very low. How is the action plan going to tackle that? Also, and I think that the Chair has already asked this, how do you communicate that and build the confidence of communities that have been seriously damaged by the activities over the recent period? Finally, how is all of that going to be measured? What does success look like?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Let us start with the last question first: how that will be measured. I touched on that with the formal accountability processes. We are also building a dedicated work stream for performance and accountability. We are building in smart short-, medium- and long-term plans over the five years to track how we are doing it. It is literally assessing every commitment that we have made, and how we are progressing and tracking those. There is a formal work stream dedicated to that.

At the minute, we are baselining. We know that there will be gaps in our data. To answer the first part of your question, which was how we are going to do that, we are going to do it through better representation through recruitment, retention and progression. We are going to do it through better data gathering and proper insights. We are going to do it through stronger partnership and working, building relationships and early identification of the problems in the prevention space. There will be, as you said, meaningful accountability, so we are holding ourselves to account through our ethnic minority police association internally, which is a really valuable asset for us, and then through the external bodies that I have outlined.

Most importantly, we are taking a trauma-informed approach. We are listening to voices with lived experience, and only they will be able to say whether we are meeting the outcomes. That goes back to my point that it is not just words, it is action. Through the annual reporting that we do, we will be held to account by our local communities.

Mr Dickson: How will that be validated? I can understand a small group of officers inside the service being asked to, if you like, mark their own homework, but will there be independent validation — external, independent scrutiny — of how you are achieving the objectives?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: That speaks to what we will try to embed — what we will embed, in fact, because we are committed to it in the plan — which is a community reference group. As well as that, we are in stages of external evaluation through local universities, with surveys, data and bringing them in to assess us. This will not be the PSNI marking its own homework; the accountability and performance work stream, in its detail, includes a huge array of qualitative and quantitative data that we will publish annually

Chief Superintendent Steen: As well as that, under indicator 1.4 of the 'Annual Performance Plan', we have to provide regular updates to the board on the race and ethnicity action plan. That is an extra accountability stream.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: It is important to remember that there is a lot of intersectionality in how we deliver against even our violence against women and girls action plans, with that cutting across into the work that we are trying to achieve with our serious and organised crime strategy. We also have annual equality monitoring and reporting through the Equality Commission. There are lots of ways to hold us to account, and we welcome that: it is right and proper.

Mr Gaston: Good afternoon, all. Racism is wrong, in every form, and has no place in Northern Ireland. That point leads me on to the lovely, glossy brochure that we have in front of us today. From reading it, my initial thought is, "At what point did the PSNI become captured?", in that it seems to throw good officers under the bus. It is liberal, left-leaning and full of sound bites. That is the impression that I get. I have serious concerns about the way that the police are moving forward. On page 5, it states:

For me, it is about the term "perception". You mentioned lived experience. In the past, when someone has made an allegation in that context, and we have tried to scrape the surface to pinpoint it, the "lived experience" has not stood up to scrutiny. How have you tested the "perception" to enable you to include that in your brochure?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: I am sorry to hear that you think that the brochure is just glossy and full of sound bites. I hope, in time, to prove you wrong about that.

For the perception of bias in the system — I think that you are referring to Mr Boutcher's comments in the foreword — all we need to do is to look at the detail that has informed the action plan and the journey that policing has been on in Northern Ireland and more widely. There is learning to take from the Macpherson report of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, from Black Lives Matter and from the Casey review. They all give indications of there being bias and discrimination within policing. We acknowledge that in the plan and have developed a response that is nationally aligned with what is happening in England and Wales.

Mr Gaston: That is nationally. As you are in front of the Committee today, I am interested in what is happening in Northern Ireland. Page 6 of the brochure states:

At what cost will all that come?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Do you mean financial cost, resourcing cost or the impact on policing of ethnic minority communities?

Mr Gaston: I mean the cost of implementing what is in the brochure. How much has been set aside for that? We hear that we are struggling with policing numbers, that we are at an all time low and that we do not have enough money in the budget to have an operational police force that is fit for purpose. I am very sceptical when a policy like this comes forward. I want to know how much it will cost to implement it, out of the existing policing budget, and how many police officers could be put on the street with that money.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: My response to that is that every work stream that is outlined in the plan is routine business. It is core policing delivery, building on work that is already well embedded. The plan is just an opportunity for us to publicly make those commitments and say, "Here is the accountability and performance process that we will deliver and be held to account on". As regards cost, this is within our daily business — it is the work that officers and staff do daily. The plan is more about focusing on the way in which we deliver; how culturally competent our officers and staff are; officers' training in and awareness of different ethnic backgrounds; and how they might need to change their response, depending on their audience. A lot of things are already there and can just be developed as part of our operational response.

Mr Gaston: Is it more rhythm and routine training, rather than investment in training?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: No, there will be an element of investment in cultural awareness, diversity and anti-racism training.

Mr Gaston: On page 7, we get to a Northern Ireland point:

I recognise that, but we have to put it into context. That was when COVID regulations were in place, and my life was impacted on by not being able to go to church. At the same time, we saw the police facilitate an IRA funeral in Belfast. Will glossy brochures come out about any of that and about how we have been impacted on in the same way? You cannot just pluck out the impact on Black Lives Matter without giving the context of the time that that happened. We also had the Ormeau Road incident, where there was political policing. A narrative is being set here, and that is what is in the brochure. On the same page, it goes on to say:

To back that up, there is a link at the bottom of the page to a BBC article. After this week, the BBC has absolutely zero credibility, yet that is where the PSNI pulled that from to put it into the brochure. I have a problem with that.

On page 17, it talks about:

At the start, you said that it was a case of your incorporating this into training. You went on to say that, yes, there will be an investment. I would like to know what that investment will be. On page 21, it talks about:

To me, that just smacks of wokery. What that training might be, I have no idea, but, again, I have serious concerns —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Timothy, you will have to let the witnesses respond. You are quick-firing.

Would the witnesses like to say anything about what has been discussed so far?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: In response to the points that you make: some of those things are for policing, and others are not. The approach that we have outlined is multifaceted. To some of the references that you make to the plan: we are here to talk about the policing response to race and ethnicity. The point of setting it in the context of Black Lives Matter is that that is evidence. The experience and voice of people from minority ethnic communities are demonstrated throughout the document. We have heard what they have to say, and we are responding accordingly.

With respect to other members of the community, you make your point: I hear it and accept that you have a point to make. However, we are here today to talk about the race and ethnicity action plan and the policing response on that.

Mr Gaston: In your opening remarks, you talked about "racist thuggery". That brings me to my next point, which is about Ballymena in particular. All the violence in Ballymena was wrong, but an element of it was due to underlying tensions. On the night, the police contributed to it starting by the way that they handled the blocking of Harryville Bridge. I have raised it with Bobby Singleton and the new commander, and they are well aware of my concerns. That night, only a small minority of people were in Ballymena to cause trouble, yet the PSNI came out with the messaging that the whole thing was racist thuggery and far right. It allowed labels to be applied. From the policing perspective, that is deeply misleading and regrettable, and it ensured that violence also happened for a number of nights after that.

My colleague beside me is puffing and blowing, but that is my lived experience — that is the lived experience of my community in Ballymena, where the Roma community came in and basically took over Clonavon. People did not feel safe going down into Clonavon, and ghettos were allowed to bed in. That was on the police station's doorstep. Local people felt marginalised and forgotten about. I do not see any lovely, glossy brochures about any of that. The problem was that the integration of that community simply did not happen. We can also talk about that on the next point.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is a good point, Timothy. We can pick up on integration with the departmental officials. Have you one more question? I am conscious that other members need to come in.

Mr Gaston: My final point is that I want a police service that is fit for purpose and properly resourced and in which people get positions based on merit, not because they are Catholic, Protestant or a certain colour. We need to get back to having a fit-for-purpose police service, not one that is captured, which is shown in what is being presented to us today. I have serious reservations. If that is where policing is heading, it smacks of Stonewall. I will probably get no support in this room, but I would feel that I was letting my community down if I did not give you my honest thoughts on that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. You have put them on the record, Timothy. Thank you. Next is Sinéad, who is online.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Chair, may I respond very briefly?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Yes, you are welcome to.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: I, too, want a police force and service that is fit for purpose and well-resourced and brings positive outcomes for all communities — in particular, ethnic minority communities, which is what we are trying to achieve through the plan.

Sue-Ann may want to pick up specifically on Ballymena, because it would be remiss of us if we did not address that based on the concerns that you have raised. Chair, I will take your lead on whether you want to pick that up in a separate question on integration.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): You have the right of response.

Sinéad, may we pause your coming in for a wee second, please?

Ms McLaughlin: OK.

Chief Superintendent Steen: Mr Gaston, thank you for your comments. As both the chief superintendent for the north area and the overall commander for the operation on 9 June, I will not talk about the whys and wherefores; that is for others.

On the policing operation, I can tell you that, if we had not taken the actions that we did, I firmly believe, as do the Chief Constable and others, that people would have lost their lives. We police without fear or favour. On that night and on subsequent nights, we did what we had to do to fulfil our obligations under section 32 of the Police Act. I appreciate and understand your comments, and I have taken them on board, but that is my view. From an independent policing perspective, those actions had to be taken.

I know that you have had a conversation with Superintendent Calderwood. If you wish, we can have a conversation outside or a meeting at some other time to discuss the way forward. What we want to do now is to move forward in Ballymena and other places. You know that the officers and staff are very keen to make sure that what happened in Ballymena — regardless of what your view on that is, and I accept your view — does not happen again. We want to get to that position.

Mr Gaston: I want to work with the police to ensure that it does not happen again.

Chief Superintendent Steen: Good.

Mr Gaston: On the night that the violence started, I was working with the police. The problem was that the police would not listen, and that put some of the officers' lives in danger. A situation was created on Harryville Bridge, where the police were holding the line and people were walking behind them. If the crowd had intended to take a pop at the police, they could have, because the police were surrounded. On the night, all that I was trying to do was to ensure that there was a sensible policing operation that protected Clonavon and did not create a bottleneck behind the police. I am very happy to pick that up with you afterwards and give you my perspective.

Chief Superintendent Steen: I will be very happy to do that, but not in this forum.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It is good that you were able to respond. Thank you.

Sinéad, please go ahead.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you very much for your answers so far. It was totally ridiculous for Timothy to suggest that the PSNI does not need a race and ethnicity plan and then talk about operations on the ground in Ballymena. That is precisely why the police in Northern Ireland, and police throughout the rest of the UK and these islands, need plans.

I have a couple of questions about data and how we measure things. You talked about the data that you use to measure confidence in the PSNI among people from ethnic minority communities. What improvements are you aiming to see in order to measure success as regards our new communities' confidence in the PSNI? In the action plan, you say that, in your reporting, you will rely on data from NISRA. Do you see any weaknesses in that data?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Thanks for your questions. The measures that we will use to demonstrate impact and deliverability are part of work stream 5 on page 25. We will be measured against the five commitments that we have made. That will be aligned to our policing plan outcomes in paragraph 1.4, which is about hate crime, particularly that relating to ethnic minority communities. We will use survey data, recruitment data and retention data. There are so many data points that I cannot list them. We are at the start of our journey of implementation, and we are baselining that.

I will say this for clarity in case I misled: we are not going to use just internal feedback from our ethnic minority police association colleagues about their lived experience; it will be very broad and wide-ranging. We will also use Equality Commission equality monitoring data. We are benchmarking from a huge source of data. We are doing that internally as well as using the national maturity matrix, which is evidence-based and has been rolled out to all of policing, to evaluate and measure what we are trying to deliver. We are also learning nationally. Others are ahead of us in what they have put in place: we are learning from the good and the negative aspects of that, and we are building that learning into our performance. We intend to bring in a significant amount of data points over and above the maturity matrix. This the start of a journey. At the moment, we are baselining, benchmarking and looking at national best practice to see where the gaps are, so that we can be held to account against all of the commitments that we have made, and so that every one of the outcomes in the plan is delivered on.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you. It is our understanding that there is a lack of local data about refugees and asylum seekers in our communities. Any barrier to having that data poses significant problems in the community, so it is important that we have data points that are as robust as possible.

Action 4.1.1 is:

I would have imagined that that could already be expected. What are the recurring barriers that you face in that regard?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: I will pass that question to Sue-Ann.

On your point about data, I know that you will hear separate evidence on data after our session. We will be working in lockstep with what the Executive Office is achieving in that space. We will work in tandem as it develops its own data points. We can support each other in doing that.

I will hand over to Sue-Ann on your question on action 4.1 about offenders.

Chief Superintendent Steen: Thank you for the question. It is a good one, because there is a range of complexities that potentially prevent people from ethnic minority communities reporting to the police in the first place. Approximately 80% of racially motivated hate crime, although it is not unique to racially motivated hate crime, is violence against the person, which can include low-level violence; I hate using the phrase "low-level". The challenge is that an awful lot of people, given their country of origin, may have a significant mistrust of police, because, in many countries, particularly Eastern European ones, the police are seen as a wing of the state, so to speak, and it is difficult for people to have any trust and confidence in police. Another issue is the language barrier. There are also cultural issues: in some cultures, people prefer to look at such issues within families and within their community rather than coming to the police.

There are a number of complex issues, and we are trying to work through all that with the Public Prosecution Service and other colleagues. One thing that we do to try to overcome the problem is to use the Hate Crime Advocacy Service, which comprises advocates with real, lived experience who work with families, victims and witnesses to support them through a criminal justice process so that we can take an offender's case all the way through the criminal justice process and bring them to justice.

It is a good question. There are a number of challenges to it, and we are looking at that as a priority from a hate crime perspective as well.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you. I will let the Chair let others in. I have a few other questions, so, if there is time at the end, I might ask them then.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I think that you wanted to respond, Zoë.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Yes. Thank you, Chair. I bring us back to the second commitment in our plan, which is to ensure that people from an ethnic minority background feel:

that they can access services and that they feel protected. That speaks to action 4.1.1 and ensuring that they have the capability and confidence to report what happens to them. We are aware that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg of what ethnic minority communities experience daily. For us, it is about building trust and confidence so that they, and the rest of our communities, feel safer, because, when one pocket does not feel safe, that has a wider impact on public safety for everybody.

Ms McLaughlin: OK. Thank you.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Thank you for the report. Do you have any data on the number of men who have been arrested for race hate and also have convictions for domestic violence and abuse?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: I can get you that data; we will have it. The data changes daily. For example, in the past couple of days alone, we have seen more people being charged in relation to the riots over the summer. We will hold that information. There are correlations. Several people have referred publicly to the number of people who are charged with offences who have also been the subject of domestic abuse investigations.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I find it completely ironic and hypocritical that men who are, supposedly, there to protect women are also responsible for violence at home. Men are terrorising women and young girls in their own houses because they are brown: that is pathetic.

It is not woke. It is pathetic. That is my view.

There are lots of things in the report, and I am glad to see it, but I see it as a work in progress. I am particularly concerned that a lot of the data will not provide a portrait of where loyalist paramilitaries are involved. In Lower Oldpark in North Belfast, people were asked to leave their homes because they were Catholic and brown. Yet, the number of people who have been racially abused or assaulted is still part of that data. That is not to say that their experience is any less or unequal, but it is about trying to get further details on that.

We do multi-agency meetings in North Belfast, which are very good. When there are reports of race hate crime, the community comes out, but that does not apply across the board. The community comes out, and anybody who is shouting at a family because they are brown will not be welcomed. People will challenge them in the street for doing that. Then you get the more sinister stuff, where loyalists are involved in intimidating families because they are Catholic and because they are brown. I am really interested to know how those figures are broken down. Thank you.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Thank you for that. You make a good point, and, going back to your opening comment, it is a work in progress. We are at the start of our plan, and we accept that there are data points that need to be captured as best as we possibly can, from a policing perspective.

Do you want to say anything about the intersectionality, Gillian?

Ms Magee: Yes, I was going to pick up on that, so thank you. It is a really interesting point. From a broader equality perspective, we are really trying to look at everything through an intersectionality lens, because you are absolutely right: a person is rarely motivated by one element. It tends to be that a lot of elements are coming together to drive that behaviour and reaction, and we need to look at things more broadly. While the plan has been published, it has not been published in splendid isolation. It is considered under the context of our equality scheme and all our obligations in that space.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Thank you.

Mrs Cameron: I thank the panel members for their attendance at the Committee today. It is good to have them.

I want to state from the outset that I am glad to see the plan. It is wholly responsible that plans and policies are in place for all the issues, of which there are many, that we are dealing with in society. I welcome the fact that charges have been brought against those who commit crimes in the name of whatever, quite frankly. It is absolutely appropriate and really important that we set an example and that, in particular, children and young people see that there will be very serious consequences for the rest of their life should they partake in criminality and illegal activity. We do not want to see that; we want to see our children and young people being protected and their futures made better, not worse.

Thank you also for the good work that you do. What discussions have you had with other police forces across the rest of the UK on all those issues and, in particular, race and ethnicity? Clearly, there is a worldwide movement of people, and many countries, including the UK and Ireland, have issues in that regard, for whatever reason. Of course, there are concerns and fears in our traditional communities and others, but that does not excuse bad behaviour, hate, intimidation or violence; I wholly condemn those behaviours.

You touched on learnings from other areas of work on race across the UK. What is ongoing, and what is coming in the future? Do you have an opportunity to feed back to the Home Office directly on what is being fed back to you from the ground? Is that going back to the Home Office, because, clearly, it is the Home Office at Westminster that has responsibility for migration? We know that there is a lot of conflation around people who are economic migrants and people who are seeking asylum. There is a lot of confusion out there on the ground.

When it comes to being on the ground, I want to touch on whether you, as a police force, have enough resource to do the job that has been handed to you. I know and see every day the value of our community neighbourhood teams on the ground. They do incredible work in keeping people on an even keel in all sorts of circumstances, and that includes dealing with race hate issues. Is there enough resource to fulfil the plan that is front of us today? If not, what more needs to be done?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you, Pam. There is plenty there. Go ahead.

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: There is plenty there. I will start and work backwards. On resource, as we all know, the Chief Constable is on the record as saying that resource and funding are wholly insufficient for policing in Northern Ireland. We are significantly under-resourced, which is having an impact on service delivery every day. That is being borne out, as you know, through conversations with and updates to the board and to elected members who sit on the board. Most of the Northern Ireland community is aware of that particular challenge for us. The short answer is no; we absolutely do not have enough resource. We do not have enough resource to effectively prevent and protect, but, every day, we do the best with what we have. We work hard and closely with all our partners. A number of issues require not just a policing response, and we rely heavily on our policing partners and the support of our politicians in that space.

On your question about asylum and refugees and whether we get an opportunity to feed back to the Home Office, respectfully, I believe that that is a non-devolved issue. Our colleagues who will give evidence after us may be able to pick up on that. We have the opportunity to feed any issues and challenges that we face from a policing perspective up to the National Police Chiefs' Council.

On the first point about what conversations we are having, there is a formal structure and process through the National Police Chiefs' Council. The Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Alison Heydari, is the national lead for the police race action plan for England and Wales. Even though we are not a Home Office force, we are absolutely in lockstep with what is going on from a national perspective, and that has informed, as I said, some of the learning that we have taken from that. We are also targeting our response because of our unique Northern Ireland context. We have had Dr Heydari over. She will be coming over for a third time so that we can feed back how we are progressing and the challenges that we are having. We can ask for learning and best practice and assess ourselves against the maturity matrix. We are very closely aligned to what is happening nationally and very tuned into the fact that we have our own unique challenges, which have come out in today's session.

Mr Gaston: You are just after saying that you are significantly under-resourced. Can you give me a figure for how much this will cost to implement?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: Have I got a figure to give to you for how much it will cost to implement the plan itself?

Mr Gaston: You said earlier that part of the plan involved training, and then you said that there will be an investment, so there is obviously a figure attached to that investment. Even if you cannot give it today, can you share that with the Committee?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: I can absolutely come back to you with breakdowns of individual costs. However, I draw you to some of the points that I have made around the fact that a lot of training and work is already ongoing in that space and that we will be building upon that. I can come back to you with a potential figure for cost and resource, but I reinforce the point that, given that the work that is already being done is so intersectional and so cross-cutting across departments, teams and the organisation, it would be challenging to give you an exact figure.

Mr Gaston: When you talk about investment, do you have a ballpark figure that will be required to ensure that this document is delivered?

Detective Chief Superintendent McKee: At the very least, in resource, it will be what the Chief Constable has asked for around his uplift, at a very basic level, and with additionality to that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It might be for you to put some questions on that to the Policing Board itself. We usually get our Policing Board members to ask those sorts of questions.

Ladies, thank you very much for all your work in this space and for attending Committee today.