Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I welcome Minister Muir; Mrs Katrina Godfrey, the permanent secretary of the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs; and David Kyle, Deputy Chief Veterinary Officer. They are here to brief the Committee and to answer any questions that we may have.

Minister, as you can imagine, we have a good deal of ground to cover. I understand that you are limited to one hour, so, if you are ready, please give the Committee your update.

Mr Muir (The Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): No problem. Thank you, Chair. I am grateful for the opportunity to brief the Committee this morning. As, I hope, you and members know, my officials and I value engagement with the Committee and are keen to support it in its important role of scrutinising my Department. Today, I will take the opportunity to share with you some of the key areas that we have been working on across the Department and to set out the work programme that we have in place for the months ahead.

I will start by updating the Committee on the position with bluetongue. As members know, two suspect cases of bluetongue were recently detected in cattle near Bangor, leading to the creation of a 20-kilometre temporary control zone (TCZ), where strict movement restrictions and surveillance have been implemented for affected farms. The suspect cases have now been confirmed. Preliminary testing has confirmed bluetongue in 44 out of 236 cattle on the impacted farm, prompting ongoing epidemiological investigations and collaboration among local, UK and Irish authorities to contain the outbreak. We are maintaining close contact with the Ulster Farmers' Union (UFU), the Northern Ireland Agricultural Producers Association (NIAPA) and the wider agri-food community.

Although bluetongue poses no risk to public health or food safety, I stress the need for farmers to abide by the restrictions that are now in place and to remain extra vigilant. The virus can affect cattle, sheep and other animals, and any concerns need to be reported to a vet and notified to DAERA. I would appreciate Committee members' help to spread those important messages. We are happy to answer any questions on that and any other topics as we go through today's session.

I now turn to other matters. As the Committee knows, the DAERA corporate plan has a key focus on achieving a net zero, nature-positive future, thus supporting sustainable agriculture and helping rural communities to thrive. Northern Ireland's agri-food and fishing sectors are the backbone of our economy and our identity. They create jobs, sustain communities and produce food of exceptional quality. My commitment is clear, and it is to support those sectors to become more sustainable, resilient and productive so that they can remain a valued and important part not only of our economy but of the fabric of society here and can continue to shape and define Northern Ireland on the world stage.

I am committed to investing the Executive earmarked funding of over £330 million for agriculture, agrienvironment, fisheries and rural development in a way that delivers real impact and outcomes. From 1 January 2026, the new farm sustainability payment (FSP) and farm sustainability standards will go live, providing a key pillar in the overall programme as a safety net for farm businesses. That is just the beginning. In 2026, we will set out an ambitious pathway for livestock genetics, capital support and horticulture and a Farming with Nature package that will support our farmers, as valued custodians of the countryside. Animal health is also a part of that. It is not a side issue but central to our farming future. We are committed to taking a One Health approach. I know the level of interest in that issue, and, as I highlighted when speaking about bluetongue, we will keep you informed.

The burden of bovine tuberculosis is unacceptable for farm families and government, and that is why I initiated a comprehensive review led by the Chief Veterinary Officer that resulted in the TB Partnership Steering Group's 'Bovine Tuberculosis in Northern Ireland: Blueprint for Eradication'. Work is already under way in five key areas, which include wildlife intervention and testing. We will not be doing this alone. Some €6·4 million of Shared Island funding from the Irish Government will support a new cross-border TB initiative. Engagement with farmers continues, and details of the regionalisation pilot will be confirmed shortly.

Our animal welfare pathway is the most ambitious programme in a decade. We are progressing Lucy's law, reviewing dog-breeding regulations and preparing consultations on microchipping, dog licensing and shock collars.

Addressing the impact of climate change in a fair and just manner remains one of my top priorities. Climate action is not simply a challenge but an opportunity to realise our vision for a sustainable future across all sectors. We need to mitigate and adapt to our changing climate. We can choose either to lead or to drag our heels and feel the consequences. I choose leadership. We have built a credible climate action plan that is grounded in science and evidence. Across government, we have also developed our third Northern Ireland climate change adaptation programme (NICCAP3), which I hope to publish shortly, following Executive consideration. The cost of inaction — economic, social and environmental — is far greater than the cost of action. Our legal obligations and emissions targets are not just numbers but commitments to future generations.

I have repeatedly said that we need to make sure that transition is done in a fair and just way. The time to set up an independent just transition commission is now. Regulations will hopefully soon reach the Assembly, paving the way for appointments to be made, and I look forward to supporting the Committee in its scrutiny of the regulations. As we move forward, we must ensure that a just transition is at the core of what we do. Additionally, I have allocated £12·3 million to a just transition fund for agriculture in this financial year to support farmers with advice, guidance and financial assistance, and I am engaging with the Minister of Finance about further support in the years ahead.

I will now turn to the issue of environmental governance. For too long, our environment and nature have suffered from a lack of robust protection. Issues such as Lough Neagh and Mobuoy are stark reminders of what happens when governance fails. That is why I commissioned the independent review of environmental governance and why I fully support establishing an independent environmental protection agency. I am glad that the majority of Members support its establishment, and I will continue to engage with the Executive on the issue. It is deeply disappointing that, to date, there has been no agreement on it at the Executive. The Northern Ireland environmental principles policy statement has gained Executive approval, embedding prevention, precaution and the "polluter pays principle" into policymaking, and I know that, after this session, the Committee will hear from officials about that. It is an important intervention, as it puts the environment at the core of policymaking.

I will now talk about legislation. Our seas, rivers and lakes are precious natural assets that are integral to our livelihoods, our culture and the economy. I will therefore introduce a fisheries and water environment Bill to modernise enforcement and protect marine and fresh water ecosystems. I note that the Committee has begun its oral evidence sessions as part of its scrutiny process for the Department's Dilapidation Bill. My officials and I look forward to working closely with the Committee as it continues its detailed scrutiny of the Bill. I welcome that scrutiny. It has been constructive.

The Lough Neagh action plan includes 37 actions, 15 of which have been delivered, while 22 are progressing. That is progress, but collaboration across Departments remains key, and big decisions are on the horizon.

On afforestation, delivering 12% forest cover by 2050 remains a priority. I have therefore commissioned a Northern Ireland tree planting action plan that is expected to be completed in the spring of next year.

On rural affairs, over £7 million in rural grants this year will support communities to tackle poverty and isolation. A new rural policy for Northern Ireland — Rural NI: our new approach 2026 to 2041 — is being developed to provide a flexible, cross-cutting framework for emerging challenges.

I now turn to the Windsor framework. We should be proud of the opportunities that exist in Northern Ireland for dual market access, which is something that I am keen to promote. Members will be aware that negotiations between the UK and the EU on a sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) agri-food agreement are under way. Following an initial round of negotiations last month, a second round took place on Monday, and a further round is planned for shortly. I want to see arrangements in place that allow agri-food goods to move from GB to NI with the least possible friction. I continue to press the UK Government to pursue the highest achievable level of dynamic alignment with the EU regulations. That is essential for having an agreement that is practical and sustainable and that can be implemented swiftly, providing the clarity and certainty that our businesses urgently need. I will continue to engage with the UK Government on the agri-food agreement, as it is something that I want to see get over the line.

What we have already achieved demonstrates real progress and ambition, but let me be clear that challenges remain. I think that we all know that, and we cannot duck them. Facing them directly and together will allow us to build a sustainable and prosperous future for everyone.

That concludes my introductory remarks. My officials and I are happy to take any questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you very much, Minister. I really appreciate your time. We will try to keep our questions as short as possible, but there will be plenty of them, as, I am sure, you will be glad to know.

If you do not mind, I will start with animal diseases. It is one of your most significant short-term pressures, and it touches on the funding piece, because, obviously, there is a finite pot. Do you foresee having to make any additional bids for funding for compensation, be it for bluetongue, bovine TB or avian influenza, before the next financial year? Do you see yourself having to dip into any other internal pots to meet such demands?

Mr Muir: I am conscious that there are statutory obligations that we have to discharge in the areas that you have outlined. I am also acutely aware of the financial situation in Northern Ireland. We will work through everything in the Department, and, if there is a need to engage with the Finance Minister, we will do so. To be honest, our focus is on managing those diseases, particularly bluetongue. We will then engage on any of the required compensation levels. David may want to come in on this, but we also have to be aware that, on the basis of the epidemiological picture with bluetongue, widespread culling is not the correct response. Bluetongue is a disease that is spread through the midge population.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I want to talk about bluetongue and the advice, but I ask that you answer the financial question first, if you do not mind. We will give David adequate time to respond, because I really want to make sure that as much information as possible gets out there. Do you anticipate having enough money in-year, or will you be making an additional bid?

Mrs Katrina Godfrey (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): I think that the Committee was briefed on December monitoring last week. My understanding is that there is unlikely to be an opportunity for Departments to make bids, given the exceptionally serious pressures facing health, education and front-line policing. We will therefore first have to do everything that we can to make sure that we re-prioritise in our own budgets to meet any costs that we incur.

As the Minister said, we keep in contact at multiple levels with the Department of Finance. If things get truly exceptional, those are conversations that will take place Minister to Minister. We are clear about our responsibilities, however. I have to make sure that the Department lives within the budget allocated to it, and that may mean taking difficult decisions down the line, but we are committed to discharging our responsibilities in that regard.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I have a final question on the budget. You answered a question honestly and openly — obviously, you have to — on what compensation looks like for bluetongue. It is slightly different from that for bovine TB in that it is half the value of the animal, I believe. It is 50% of the market sale. That being the case, given that there are now 44 other potential cases, someone could see their herd wiped out. The current compensation scheme would give them half the value of their herd. There are also potential difficulties for businesses in recreating a herd. We previously heard that with bovine TB. Minister, is there any scope for you and your team to look at reviewing the compensation scheme?

Mr Muir: It is set out in primary legislation. It is really important that we state that bluetongue is different from diseases such as TB. It is absolutely critical that that be made known. Do you want to come in, David?

Mr David Kyle (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): We really need to avoid alarming herd keepers in the area. At the moment, given the information that we have, there is no intention to cull those animals, because we see no veterinary rationale for doing so. There is no epidemiological rationale for killing them. They do not pose any great or significant risk to other herds. The herd is extremely well managed and very biosecure. The issue that we fear is midge infections. As you know, the midge population cannot be controlled. We would never say "Never", however. We are undertaking extensive surveillance at pace to gather more evidence, and our advice to the Minister will allow him to take decisions that are based on the best science available.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): To expand on that, the outbreak is in a dairy herd. It therefore presents less of a risk than something in the beef space. If, for instance, it were in a beef herd that was ready for sale at market, the keeper could not hold on to the herd indefinitely. What would happen in that instance?

Mr Kyle: In order to ensure that the public are aware, I reiterate that there is no food safety risk and no public health risk from the outbreak. Animals can go to slaughter. Milk can be collected and processed for human consumption. There are provisions to allow animals to be moved to direct slaughter. Travel through a market is limited at this stage. There is a market in the area, and, unfortunately, its activities have had to be suspended for the time being.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I imagine that there are instances in which, given the high levels of biosecurity for moving an animal from a herd, if it had to go to market —.

Mr Kyle: If it goes to slaughter, it has to be taken under a designation scheme and slaughtered as quickly as possible once it arrives in order to ensure that there is no potential risk of spread. We also have to remember, however, that, for most of the Province, we are pretty much in a vector-low period. Midge activity is limited, so local risk of spread at various abattoir sites is also limited.

Mr Muir: The affected farm is, in some ways, a flagship farm. It has excellent biosecurity, and there are no clinical signs among the cattle in question. The cattle that have tested positive for bluetongue will largely recover. It is therefore really important to state that there are no implications for public health or food safety. It is an entirely separate issue.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): There is an ongoing concern about vacancy rates in the Department. The figure that we got last week was in and around 890. I am specifically looking at how such crises are managed. Is there a concern that the Department does not have the requisite number of vets and inspectors? Is there any weakness in that space to deal with such issues and resource them?

Mr Muir: I will let Katrina speak about vacancies, but I reassure everyone that the situation is a priority for the Department. I have been clearing my diary. Officials have been focused on the matter and will continue to be.

Mrs Godfrey: As you will have seen, Chair, and as colleagues on other Committees will know, vacancies are a significant source of concern for all of us. Our vacancy rate continues to go down: it is closer to 800 now. There are vacancies on the veterinary side, most of which relate to our responsibilities under the Windsor framework. Nonetheless, as is the case everywhere else, we find it challenging to recruit and retain professional veterinary colleagues. That means that we have to prioritise and re-prioritise. As the Minister says, when something like that happens, we need to make sure that we have the right people in the right place. David and his teams and Brian, as the Chief Veterinary Officer, work tirelessly in that regard. Would I like us to have more vets? Absolutely. I am conscious, however, that there is a shortage of vets across most of Europe.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Do you have a figure for shortages in inspector and vet numbers specifically?

Mrs Godfrey: I know that I have 62 vacancies in the wider group that are not to do the Windsor framework work, but I do not have a breakdown of vacancies to hand, Chair, unless David knows about their make-up. It will be a mixture. Some of them will be professional veterinary staff, while some of them will be inspectors or admin staff.

Mr Kyle: We are conscious of the fact that we need to recruit more vets. We are exceptionally lucky to have the staff whom we have, and we are proud of them.

Mrs Godfrey: Absolutely.

Mr Kyle: They are working incredibly hard at the moment to deal with bluetongue, not forgetting avian influenza, which put them under enormous strain. Our front-line staff's commitment has been absolutely fantastic. We have teams working around the clock, and the Province is lucky to have such a dedicated veterinary service.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I appreciate that. We raised a concern, about which you will have heard when I touched on our informal report on bovine TB, about rural support for farmers. I am aware, however, that your staff are under immense pressure.

Mrs Godfrey: Absolutely.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Are steps being taken to support the staff? I imagine that the workload for inspectors and vets at the moment is considerable. Are there support mechanisms in place in the Department?

Mrs Godfrey: That is a really good question, Chair. Our colleagues in the Department of Finance are excellent. We have welfare services in place at multiple levels. Some are about building resilience and support, while others offer direct one-to-one help. We show responsiveness in the form of helplines and staff. We are also really well served by outside organisations, including the Charity for Civil Servants, which will come in. In fact, in the example of the awful circumstances that colleagues in Inishkeen House experienced earlier in the year, it is fair to say that such services were so responsive to the needs of staff and continue to offer them support.

One of the things that we always have to look at is whether we signpost those services well enough. Yes, we can signpost them, but we have to do so on the days that staff members need them. That is something that we will keep under review. Credit is due to our Department of Finance colleagues, who have put a lot of work and effort into improving those services for staff across the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS).

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I am conscious that I am eating into members' time, so I have just three more short questions. You took a question on the first one earlier this week, Minister. The agreement on veterinary medicines changes on 1 January, but that has been brought into sharper focus because we do not know the list of drugs that may be affected, although we have been promised that it is a small list. Where vaccination is an option — David can advise us about bluetongue — we do not know whether vaccination is under threat from 1 January. Perhaps you know, David, whether it is on the list. There is a mitigation in the agreement to "prevent undue suffering", but, as you said, those animals are not suffering, so it would not trip the internal safeguard. Can you give us any certainty about that?

Mr Muir: At the outset, it is important for me to outline that it does not come under my direction and control; it sits with the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). The UK Government are putting in place two schemes in light of the fact that the grace period finishes at the end of the year. Availability of and access to the bluetongue vaccine will not be a challenge. If it is, I will engage with the UK Government and work through the matter. At the moment, the focus has to be on vigilance, surveillance, the quick reporting of instances of sick animals and the isolating of those animals. I understand the concerns about veterinary medicines. I met the UK Government last week, and I continue to engage with them on the issue.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): I note that the advice is commercially sensitive, so we cannot see it. I am, however, keen for the Committee to write to DEFRA to flag the issue as a known risk, because, in the past, neither Brussels nor the UK Government have listened to our concerns. We need to be robust and proactive in that space.

I have two further short questions. Will you update us on the consultation about the supply and sale of puppies? Is there any timeline for further work or the introduction of legislation?

Mr Muir: You are referring to Lucy's law on third-party sales. The consultation is under way, and I met officials a few weeks ago to go through the themes that are initially coming out of it. I will receive a formal submission on the way forward. We have to listen to the feedback, and there is to be a difference in how we deal with puppies and kittens. We will consider the initial themes and then engage with the Committee about our proposals.

It is important that we take action, because it is a significant issue of concern. An expert review of breeding establishments is also being undertaken, and I intend to engage with them in the time ahead. Those are key issues. It is also an example of where we can use secondary legislation to deliver benefits for the citizens of Northern Ireland, and that is what the animal welfare pathway is focused on. We will also engage with the UK Government on Lucy's law, because I am conscious of Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Finally, representatives from Shared Environmental Services (SES) were last before the Committee in 2021, which was before my time on the Committee. We have written to SES on a number of issues. There are now issues about its remit and structure, because it sits under the Department for Communities, the Department for Infrastructure and DAERA in different ways. Can you give the Committee a better understanding of its DAERA remit? How does it interact in order to apply policy and legislation?

Mr Muir: Shared Environmental Services is a collaboration among a number of councils. It forms part of the planning process and sits within the Department for Infrastructure. My Department's role is as a statutory consultee for the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA), and it responds to the decision maker, which is often the councils. Some of the feedback about the ammonia emissions issue is that people want better access to advice, and we will consider what more the Northern Ireland Environment Agency can do to advise people to make them aware of the rules and the requirements when submitting an application. We understand that that SES responsibility sits with my Department. Katrina will know that, because she was previously the permanent secretary of the Department for Infrastructure.

Mrs Godfrey: It is a creation of the councils through which, as planning authorities, they can access their own advice.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): No problem. Thank you very much for that.

Mr McAleer: I will pick up on the previous theme. We have been lobbied a lot lately on how poultry farm applications are being held up in the system and on the issue of dealing with litter from such farms. From knowledge of my area and other places, I know that there are farms in the South of Ireland that want and need that litter. Minister, you said in statements recently that there is a phosphorus deficit in the southern part of the island, whereas there is a P surplus in the northern part.

Mrs Godfrey: Yes.

Mr McAleer: My colleague Martin Kenny in the Dáil has raised the issue. Outside the AERA Committee, Emma Sheerin has raised it with SES and others. There is clearly some sort of issue with getting transboundary advice to resolve the difficulty. Your Department has been lobbied on the matter as well. Can you shed any light on what is happening to try to resolve it?

Mr Muir: I am aware of the issue, and, to be fair, Michelle McIlveen and William Irwin have also raised it. I understand that it is extremely complex. This week, I asked officials for an update on where it stands. There is a role for Shared Environmental Services. The NIEA also has a role, however.

I do not know whether you want to say anything more, Katrina. We need to be conscious of its complexity.

Mrs Godfrey: Yes. The NIEA has also indicated that it will reach out again to its counterpart in the South. The issue, Declan, as I understand it, is with the difficulty in getting responses from the planning authorities in the regions on the other side of the border. As I said, the NIEA has undertaken to reach out again to see what information is missing. There are, however, clear complexities here around transboundary assessments.

Mr McAleer: My colleague Emma Sheerin received correspondence from SES. One of the asks is for the Department to liaise directly with its counterpart in the South to resolve the situation. Many of the farmers and representatives to whom I have spoken make the case that air modelling is required here but not in the South. That is one impediment that needs to be resolved. If farms in another part of the island need poultry litter and farms here need to export it, the issue needs to be resolved, because it is becoming a massive one for the poultry sector.

Mr Muir: If you are happy, we will take that question away and write to the Committee about reviewing the situation and where we are in doing so.

Mr McAleer: Yes.

Mrs Godfrey: That matches my understanding completely, Declan. The NIEA is getting back in touch to try to push a bit more to determine what is missing.

Mr McAleer: There is a delay in National Parks and Wildlife Service responding to the NIEA.

Before I move on, I commend the swift approach that the Department has taken in dealing with the bluetongue outbreak. Thank you for keeping in touch with us about it. Well done. Are we any clearer on where it originated, Minister?

Mr Muir: I will let David come in on that. On the response, I commend veterinary service staff — vets and officials — in my Department for their response. I have seen them demonstrate real professionalism and leadership that I will remember for the rest of my career. People are working collaboratively as a team, and I thank them for it. The challenge is that because bluetongue is spread through the midge population we will not be able to nail the outbreak's origin 100% in order to have a definitive understanding about where it came from.

Do you want to say anything more, David?

Mr Kyle: The Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI) has also been outstanding —

Mr Muir: Yes, very quick.

Mr Kyle: — and is a very responsible working part of our team. We have good midge-modelling data that suggests high-density plumes, not frequently but intermittently, throughout September and October. We are meeting in focus there today to get a bit more detail through the outcome of the specific results of the PCR and serology testing in order to understand from the blood results when animals were infected.

We will also lean very carefully on the expertise of Pirbright in the UK and what its developed understanding might tell us about when the animals were infected. The initial indication is that there was an initial incursion that subsequently multiplied quite significantly in the local midge population.

Mr McAleer: Am I correct that the cooler the temperature, the better to prevent the midges from spreading?

Mr Muir: Yes, my aspiration for the weeks ahead —.

Mrs Godfrey: Is for it to stay under 13°C.

Mr Muir: Yes, or even lower, ideally. Unfortunately, my desires for the weather are different from those of many citizens in Northern Ireland. I do not want warm summers because of the implications for Lough Neagh, and, in this context, it would be ideal to have a really cold next few weeks. We cannot, however, bank on the weather here. We have to have extreme vigilance and the surveillance and monitoring in place to get the picture back. The cooperation that we have had with the Ulster Farmers' Union and NIAPA has been really helpful; we are working together closely on the matter. It is important to clarify that the disease was not brought in by an imported animal.

Mr Kyle: No. The herd in question is very biosecure and rarely buys in animals. It has the highest standards and is very secure. We have seven midge traps across the Province, but we also put a midge trap on that farm that has demonstrated that you can have anomalies locally in the behaviour of midges. We found that there were active midges this week, so, despite the colder weather, we can still get recrudescence of the virus.

Mr McAleer: That is why I was curious about whether it was brought in by an animal. I remember one time the Schmallenberg virus came here. I think that it came in and travelled up the eastern seaboard to here. I am curious about how one patch has the midges but not the rest of the eastern seaboard. Did it come across the sea?

Mr Kyle: The modelling is really interesting. It shows that plumes affect the whole eastern seaboard from the south of Ireland all the way up. That is what leads us to think that the disease could be more prevalent than our initial detections suggest. Our surveillance is there to detect how far it has spread.

Mr McAleer: Thank you very much.

Miss McIlveen: Thank you for the presentation this morning. This engagement is really helpful: maybe it is something that we should have more frequently.

My initial question is about bluetongue. Obviously, the focus at the moment is very much on the control zone. If I assume that the infection has been in the herd for some time, I can also assume that there have been herd movements during that time. Will you confirm how many movements there have been and whether they have been outside the control zone?

Mr Kyle: Yes, there have been. I cannot give you a precise figure now, but I can do so later, Michelle. There have been some traced movements, and we have extended the tracing window back to 1 September. It was initially set at 1 October, but we think that the period that we are dealing with could be longer than that. There have not been as many movements as you would think, given the type of enterprise. All the traced animals have been restricted, and they will be tested, which will give us more information. We have already tested one of the herds that had animals in the zone. To add even further complexity, there will be keepers who had animals in the control zone but took them home after the tracing window commenced. It is complex work, and we will need a little time before we are in a better position to give a full and further update.

Miss McIlveen: Ultimately, if you are testing 20 random farms within the control zone, that becomes a multiplier. There could be tens of thousands of animals that need to be tested. Do you have the testing capacity for that?

Mr Kyle: Yes, AFBI has assured us that it can do a significant amount of testing for us. It can do 300 PCR tests a week for us. It can do many more serologic tests — maybe over 1,000. AFBI is able to handle that, but we need to be careful in how we schedule the tests and organise our work with them.

Mr Muir: Do you want to talk about the TB test and trying to do it at the same time?

Mr Kyle: We are trying to align the surveillance testing that we are doing with TB tests that were already scheduled. Before the end of the week, we will have a number of herd tests done. We are trying to inconvenience farmers as little as possible.

Mrs Godfrey: And use resources sensibly.

Mr Muir: We also have testing and surveillance in the abattoirs. We will get a picture back from that, but, obviously, that will be of beef rather than dairy livestock.

Miss McIlveen: It is a moving picture.

Mr Muir: It is.

Miss McIlveen: The Chair asked about vets and the challenges in their recruitment. We have had that conversation before. Has there been a reassessment of the salary scales for vets? I am conscious of what the Department pays compared with what a vet could earn in the private sector.

Mrs Godfrey: A couple of pieces of work are under way on that, one of which is looking at specific professions across the Civil Service for which we have evidence of recruitment and retention difficulties. The veterinary profession is one such area. The Department of Finance is leading on that. As you can imagine, the bar to prove that civil servants need to be paid more is not low. That work is being taken forward by the Department of Finance.

In a similar vein, we have been looking at all of our staff structures. We have been looking at how we recruit and what we learn about the people who leave us. You are right: sometimes, they leave to go to parts of the public sector or, indeed, other Governments due to the differentials. One of the key things that we see — David might have his own perspective on this — is that some of the things that might have made the Civil Service and the public sector an attractive employer for veterinary colleagues five, six or seven years ago are being replicated across the private sector. The things that we offered, almost as unique selling points, such as flexibility, variety of work and the ability to work part-time, are being reflected much more in what are now much bigger private practices.

Mr Kyle: That is right.

Mrs Godfrey: That is another element of competition.

As well as that, there has been a generational shift in how younger people come into the workforce. There used to be a sense that being a government vet or, indeed, a civil servant of any type was a long-term career. However, when we talk to students — this is why our student placement scheme is so important — we see different attitudes to the world of work. They might go in, have a career for a while and then do something different. David, I do not know if that is something that you are picking up as well. The younger people whom we see coming in are much more mobile than the folk who came into the Civil Service with me were — she said, still here. [Laughter.]

Mr Kyle: Our veterinary service is rapidly changing and evolving, and it is an incredibly diverse and fascinating place to work. It is the type of environment that younger graduates are looking for. They seek a lot of reward from the work that they do. Setting aside the pay issue — that is slightly outside our remit — work is going ahead to progress what can be done. We are focused on having a well-led group of people who are committed to serving the citizens here.

Mrs Godfrey: Brian, David and the top team are very much leading a renewal programme to try to make sure that the posts are as fulfilling as possible. As colleagues reflected earlier, the posts are, at times, incredibly demanding. David mentioned avian influenza. Look at what we ask staff to do and what they go out to do with a heart and a half: it is phenomenal.

Miss McIlveen: Minister, the UFU passed a motion of no confidence in the Department and, by extension, you, as the person who leads it. What tangible actions are you taking to regain its confidence?

Mr Muir: I am on record at the time as saying that I was disappointed to see that motion had been passed. When I came into office in February 2024, I inherited lots of challenges, and we are working through those. We have a good story to tell about the sustainable agriculture programme, which is delivering over £300 million of support to farmers in Northern Ireland. This is the only part of the UK in which that money has been ring-fenced, and we are delivering that. Next year will be key, with the farm sustainability payment and lots of other schemes such as Farming with Nature.

On TB, we have managed to get agreement on a blueprint for the way forward. It is the first time in a long while that we have managed to get such agreement, and we are pushing ahead with that.

I acknowledge the frustrations around some of the big, difficult issues that we are working through. Ammonia is another one, and I understand the concerns about the need for replacement sheds and where that issue sits. We have to remain on the right side of the law, and I will meet the UFU and other stakeholders on that in the next number of weeks. I do not underestimate the challenges around those issues, but I am committed to working through them in an open and transparent manner.

Miss McIlveen: We had a meeting about TB with a number of farmers this week. They are concerned about the regionalisation programme and its current focus. A low-risk area has been identified for that work, as opposed to a medium- or high-risk area in which the results could be more tangible. Why was that area chosen? Is the Department working with Professor Dick, who has done sterling work to collate accurate numbers on badger movement?

Mr Muir: I am aware of the work of Professor Dick in that area. We are happy to consider the science and evidence on the issue. It is important that that work is peer-reviewed and robust. We will engage with people on that. That is how we inform our decisions on science and evidence.

I understand that the area for the regionalisation programme has a level of infection of around 10%. If 10% is not high enough, folks, I worry, because 10% is unsustainable for the farming community. It is far too high. The area in question has been selected because of its geographical nature. It is ideal for us to be able to move in and begin our regionalised approach. The support from our colleagues in the South is welcome. The three-pronged approach includes a wildlife intervention measure. It also includes cattle measures on which we want to engage with the farming community. Those measures can include, if they want, additional biosecurity, on which we can give advice, and additional testing.

The regionalised approach has proven successful in other parts of Europe, and I am committed to doing all that I can on the issue. Before we come on to the issue of wildlife, we have to learn lessons from the judicial review. That is why we are doing this in a robust way, and we will consult on it from spring next year.

Miss McIlveen: I am conscious that I have probably taken too much time, so I will follow up with further questions at another time.

Mr Irwin: Thank you very much for coming along to the Committee. One thing that concerns me about the bluetongue outbreak is the fact that the animals in question showed no symptoms. It is therefore more difficult to tackle. It is all very well to tell people to be vigilant, but, if their animals do not show symptoms, how do they know that they have it, other than by testing them? It will take a lot of testing to identify animals that are infected.

Mr Kyle: That is a double-edged sword. In a way, it is good that they showed no symptoms. If that is an indicator of what is to come, bluetongue may not cause as big a problem for the cattle industry here, but it is early days to say that.

Regarding the Chair's comments about vaccination, farmers need to think carefully about that and, together with their private vets, make good, wise decisions. Yes, the herd showed no symptoms, and there was no effect on production. That was the case for those cattle. Sheep, however, show a different clinical picture. We are in constant learning mode. We are watching what is happening in Great Britain. The disease there has generally been picked up as a result of farms reporting symptoms. Their surveillance —.

Mr Irwin: From a veterinary perspective, it just makes it a bit more difficult when there are no symptoms.

Mr Kyle: That is not to say that, next year, especially in the height of midge season, when there is a phenomenally higher risk of infection, there will not be symptoms. The concern of the agricultural community is well founded. From listening to reports in Great Britain, I know that most practitioners recommend that people vaccinate their herds and for good reason.

Mr Irwin: Turning to compensation, I take it that beef farms — I am not talking about breeding stock — that have cattle ready for slaughter can send them for slaughter and get full payment for them, so they do not need compensation: is that right?

Mr Kyle: Yes.

Mr Muir: Yes.

Mr Irwin: Breeding stock will be the only issue with compensation.

Mr Kyle: Compensation comes in only if we were to take a decision to cull an infected herd, in which case the legislation states that there is 50% compensation for animals that are infected and 100% for the other animals.

Mr Irwin: Where a farmer has an infected herd and he has beef cattle, could he not make the decision to go to the factory and get full payment?

Mr Kyle: Once animals are considered diseased, that stops becoming an option.

Mr Irwin: They are allowed to go to the factory. You are saying that they are allowed to go for slaughter.

Mr Muir: If they are not positive.

Mr Irwin: Yes.

Mr Kyle: If they are not positive.

Mr Irwin: Why would the farmer take 50% of the value when he is allowed to sell them at full value?

Mr Kyle: If, under the legislation, an animal is considered to be diseased, it is not, by definition, fit for human consumption.

Mr Irwin: I thought that you told us that they were fit for human consumption.

Mr Kyle: If an animal is diseased, the public will want to know.

Mr Irwin: Are you saying now that an animal with bluetongue is not fit for human consumption?

Mr Muir: If a test comes back and the animal is positive, it does not go to slaughter, OK? The situation at Clandeboye is that 44 animals have been identified as positive. That is a high number. The culling of those animals is not the correct epidemiological response as they have no clinical signs and will recover.

Mr Kyle: They will get better.

Mr Muir: They will get better.

Mr Irwin: Which is good, by the way. Are you saying that animals with bluetongue are still fit for human consumption?

Mr Muir: If the animal tests positive, the animal remains on the farm.

Mr Irwin: Can it go to the factory and be sold for human consumption if it is a beef animal?

Mr Kyle: No. If there has been a disease outbreak in that situation, it cannot. It is the same if an animal is found to have symptoms of disease and that comes to the attention of an official veterinarian in the factory. That animal is not eligible for —.

Mr Irwin: If it is a beef animal, the Department gets the full value for it in the factory. Why do you pay 50% value for the animal? If you cull the beef animal, you get full value for it in the factory or should do.

Mr Kyle: That would be an option, but, in this situation, if it was a cull animal that the Department considered to be diseased, it would choose not to put that animal into the human food chain. In this situation, however, there is no evidence of clinical infection.

Mr Irwin: That is OK.

In relation to TB, my colleague mentioned the regionalisation programme. We had some UFU members with us the other day in a meeting. They have concerns that the area that was chosen for test, vaccinate, remove (TVR) has one of the lowest incidences of TB in Northern Ireland. Why was an area with a higher incidence not chosen?

Mr Muir: As I outlined to Michelle, the area in question has been chosen because of its geographical location. That makes it better as —

Mrs Godfrey: A test case.

Mr Muir: — a test case. I would get your point if the level in the area was 5%. Boy, would I love to have 5% levels of infection in Northern Ireland, but we do not. We have unsustainable levels of TB, and I am trying to use everything in our toolbox to deal with that. I have a blueprint, and we are working in conjunction with stakeholders. We are not going to say that we will mandate X, Y, and Z. We will consult on things, try to bring people with us and pursue the regionalised approach. We have engaged with the Irish Government, recognising that this is a good example of cross-border cooperation because the disease does not respect borders.

I understand the concerns. I have met farmers who have been in tears, so I understand the impact that the situation is having on farmers' mental health. I know that you heard from them on Tuesday. That is why this is an important issue for me and for the veterinary service. In the same way as they have engaged over the past few days on bluetongue, my officials have engaged on TB. That shows you the level of priority that we are giving the matter.

Mr Irwin: TB is a concern. I declare an interest as I have TB in my herd at home.

Mr Muir: I am sorry to hear that.

Mr Irwin: It is not at a high level by any means, but it is prevalent. I have some knowledge of the situation.

We were told in a press report a few months ago that there was a boom in badger numbers in Northern Ireland. Has the Department sought to identify the number of badgers in Northern Ireland?

Mr Muir: I am aware of where that report came from, and Michelle referred to it. We are happy to consider the science and evidence presented to us. There is a need to do a badger survey, and that is one of the actions in the blueprint.

Mr Irwin: Many planning applications for poultry houses have been held up. I am aware that NIEA has come back positively on many of those and that the SES is holding them up. In some cases, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in the Republic of Ireland has accepted applications or responded to them positively, and they are still being held up. It is a big issue for Moy Park.

Mr Muir: I am happy to take that issue away and come back on it, because a number of members have raised it. I know that there is a role for Shared Environmental Services, but, obviously, that sits within Infrastructure —

Mrs Godfrey: The councils.

Mr Muir: — and councils. How you interface with those other areas is a matter for you, as a Committee.

Mrs Godfrey: From my understanding, William, you are absolutely right. There are cases on which NIEA has been able to say that, with the mitigations that are being proposed, it is content. A decision by a council is entirely that: a decision by that council as a planning authority. Therefore, NIEA and other parts of the Department that have a role do not get to say yes or no to a planning application. That is the job of a local planning authority. Where there is evidence that those making the applications have the right mitigating measures, you are absolutely right to say that NIEA is not objecting to those applications. I have seen examples of that.

Mr Irwin: Applicants have contacted my office and me about applications that have been sitting in the system for months. It seems that SES is answerable to no one on the issue.

Mrs Godfrey: It should be answerable to the local council that is using it, because the council is the planning authority and the ultimate decision maker. As you said, Minister, SES is a creature of the councils.

Mr Muir: You may want to engage with the Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) on the role of local government in the situation.

Ms Murphy: Thanks for coming in to brief us, folks. It is good to see you. I will try to be as concise as possible with my questions.

Mr Muir: You are OK. They are important questions.

Ms Murphy: I want to drill down a bit further on bluetongue. First, on the testing protocols, does the Department have any data on how many farms and holdings in the temporary control zone have been tested to date and how many remain to be tested?

Mr Kyle: There are about 700 cattle herds and 300 sheep flocks in the control zone. We have not tested any yet, but that will start in the next few days. I believe that some will be done before the weekend is out, and further tests will be done in the next week or two. It is a considerable undertaking, I guess, and a change to operations, but it is a priority, and we will get it done as quickly as possible.

Ms Murphy: David, will DAERA publish some of the results from its testing, such as the number of positive cases and negative cases and the number of cattle and sheep that have been tested?

Mr Kyle: On surveillance, yes, we have to give an account of the disease investigation in the Official Journal, so that will become a matter of public record. We have already given outline results for the infected premises.

Ms Murphy: Thank you for that. Can the infection be transmitted in utero?

Mr Kyle: Yes, it can.

Ms Murphy: On the issue of mortality, I assume that young lambs or calves are more susceptible to the virus in utero.

Mr Kyle: It depends on the trimester of pregnancy in which they are infected. If they are infected in the first third of pregnancy, the result is usually abortion. If they are infected in the middle third of pregnancy, there are usually some congenital defects. In the last third, they are usually born reasonably competent. It really depends on the trimester in which they are infected.

Schmallenberg virus has shown us a few lessons in what that is like. In a year when Schmallenberg affects Northern Ireland, it can have quite devastating impacts. Bluetongue is a bit more predictable, because it will be year on year.

Ms Murphy: Thank you, David. Just to move on —.

Mr Muir: Just to say, Áine, we have moved rapidly on testing. Once a picture has emerged, we have gone public about it. We did that on Saturday evening. I spoke to the press on Sunday and yesterday, so we are moving pretty rapidly on that. In addition to that testing as it is occurring on farms, we have surveillance occurring in abattoirs. That is how we identified this at the beginning, and it is a really important measure to make sure that we have in place.

I echo David's words on AFBI, which has been excellent in turning this around and understanding the urgency, so there really is a focus on that. It is an emerging picture, and the more data we get, the better.

Ms Murphy: Thank you for that, Minister. I know that others have stated from the get-go that the work that AFBI and the team of vets have undertaken over the last number of days has, no doubt, been huge. What assessments have been carried out to date of the efficacy of vaccinations? David, keep me right: I think there are three licensed in the North. Will you talk about the differences between those vaccines?

Mr Kyle: There are various scientific papers on that. One of those vaccines is generally accepted as being slightly better than the others. The Scottish Government have said which one, they think, is more appropriate. I do not know whether we have made a policy decision per se on that —

Mr Muir: No, we have not.

Mr Kyle: — and the commercial data. They are considered, at the moment, licensed. They were licensed at pace and in enormously challenging conditions in the Netherlands, where they were being used in the face of an outbreak.

At the moment, the view is that, while they do not prevent animals from getting sick, they limit the signs of the sickness, and that is a really important factor to consider. While the uptake of vaccination in GB has perhaps not been as much as was anticipated, we encourage the farming community to really engage well on that, because we just do not know what the potential impact of the disease is. We have the highest standard of animal health status in Northern Ireland. Our agri-food sector is important to us, and our reputation is renowned worldwide.

Ms Murphy: Moving forward into the higher-vector period in spring or summer, will the Department consider a mandatory vaccination programme?

Mr Muir: We are not considering that at the moment, but seeing how this has emerged in England and Wales, that is an option for farmers in conjunction with private veterinary practitioners (PVPs). We are in winter now; it is getting colder. Potentially, the midge population will overwinter, and that is how this could come back in spring. That is why, even if we get through the next few weeks without further cases — we cannot be guaranteed of that — we should just be conscious that it has not gone away.

Ms Murphy: No doubt it will continue to evolve. It is very much a moving picture in that sense.

Where are vaccine stock levels at the minute? Have we enough stock to cover the vaccinations that farmers may want to partake in over the coming weeks and months?

Mr Kyle: It will be very much commercially driven. The Minister is proactive and uses foresight in introducing access to those vaccines, which is really important, because it is not something that you can just switch on overnight. At least there is a process now for getting the vaccines, and farmers can apply for a licence from the Department to get approval to obtain a stock of vaccine. We are trying to limit the amount of vaccine that any one farmer can get so that it is fair for all. We do not want a run on vaccines and other people not getting what they need. Our understanding is that there will be stocks available.

Ms Murphy: That is reassuring.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I have one final question on bluetongue, and I know that it was touched on earlier. Can the Department categorically rule out the possibility that bluetongue was introduced here via the importation of livestock?

Mr Kyle: All the evidence from our first infected premises is that that was not a factor in this place at all. There was a co-located associated sheep flock. OK, it was kept a little further away, but they all tested negative.

Yes, there has been speculation and rumour that people have been bringing animals in illegally. That is disappointing, and I am sure that it is confined to a small minority of people. The clear messaging from the Minister from the very start has been that responsible sourcing of livestock is important — even legal responsible livestock sourcing — and we would like to carry that on into the future. This part of the world does not have the diseases that are in other parts of the Europe and further afield. To carry that through would be good.

Mr Muir: It is important that I echo that. I am proud of doing this job, and one of the reasons is that I meet so many farmers, and they take such pride in their husbandry and in animal health and welfare. The idea that people would not stick to the rules is anathema to the overwhelming majority of farmers in Northern Ireland.

We have set out the situation, and we have been proactive in communicating what we know. We are happy to come to the Committee again, if you want. There has been some stuff on social media — conspiracy theories and all the rest. Those people need to catch themselves on, because some of the stuff that I see posted on social media does a real injustice to farming in Northern Ireland. We need to respect our farmers. I am immensely proud of what they do for Northern Ireland and how they are working with us in response to this.

Ms Murphy: I suppose, from the Department's point of view, there has been information put out over the last number of days, even going back to last weekend. I have seen some of the rumours and conspiracy theories floating about on social media. I do now know whether it would be useful if the Department was to quickly compile a Q&A document with maybe frequently asked questions to disseminate among the farming community through the UFU and such channels. That would be greatly beneficial.

Just one final question, Chair. I will switch themes totally and bring us back to the rural policy framework redesign. I think, Minister, that it is due to go out to consultation in the spring.

Mr Muir: Yes, it is.

Ms Murphy: When do you intend to bring in the final policy?

Mr Muir: It will probably be autumn next year. Great work has been done by officials on that in conjunction with stakeholders. It is probably a model example of policy development. Do you want to say more on that, Katrina?

Mrs Godfrey: I am really proud of the team and the way that it has gone about its engagement. Hopefully, there will be consultation in the spring. That then gives us an opportunity in late spring/early summer to assess what we have got and bring final proposals to the Minister in the autumn. The Minister will definitely want it done by the end of the next calendar year, I suspect, so we will have to keep up the pace. The engagement has been terrific. This was an area that I worried a bit about at the start — whether there would be so many expectations that it might be difficult to land on something. The pillars have been well supported, and the approach and the concept of our being a champion and a voice for rural communities has crystallised a lot of support around it.

Ms Murphy: Definitely. I have heard feedback from some groups involved in the process, and it has been positive. At local and grassroots level, a lot of rural community groups are champing at the bit to see something delivered and, more important, to get financial support down into those grassroots groups.

Mr T Buchanan: I am conscious of the time, Chair, so I will keep it brief.

Mr Muir: You are OK. We will make sure that everyone is treated fairly.

Mr T Buchanan: Right. OK then. What are the barriers to the recruitment and retention of veterinary staff? We have heard about the number of veterinary vacancies. Have you identified the barriers?

Mrs Godfrey: There are a number of barriers, Tom. One is that we are in a highly competitive market. Across Europe, the demand for veterinary professionals continues to outstrip supply. That is not just across the Civil Service or the public sector; it is across every sector. We compete in a pool that is not big enough to meet everybody's needs, so we have shortages. There is also the reality that, in some cases, employers can offer better terms and conditions than we can. The overall shortage and the terms and conditions are probably the key things. David, I do not know whether you would add to that list.

Mr Kyle: We need to test the market again to see what the current situation is. It has been some time since we had a recruitment for entry-level veterinary officers, and there are reasons for that. We were lucky to recruit two specialist veterinary epidemiologists this year. We are reasonably confident that there are people out there. Both those people came from outside Northern Ireland: one from South Africa and one from Spain. They are highly skilled people who will help us. We are also taking in quite a lot of people on agency contracts as an interim measure. Of course, that is not what we want to do. We are committed to having a holistic service, because we believe that Northern Ireland agriculture requires our service to have multiskilled people who understand every aspect of it.

Mr T Buchanan: Thank you. I turn back to TB, which is a prevalent issue at the moment. Farmers are at the end of their tether. We hear from them about the continual increase in TB; in fact, they are making the assumption that, for next number of years, the cost to the Department will be an extra £10 million every year. We have heard about partnership groups being set up to look at this and reports that have been done and so forth, but it has not really made any difference, because TB rates are still increasing.

If we are honest, we all know that we will see no change in the TB situation until there is a cull of the badger population. When can farmers realistically expect, with regard to your proposals, to see a turnaround or a stoppage, if you like, of the increase and TB starting to decrease in Northern Ireland? That is where we have to get to. Setting up all those groups and producing reports have done nothing to reduce or stop TB. We are talking about seeking to eradicate it and getting it down to 5% or, if we can, below that. When will we begin to see the interventions that you want to make turning the TB crisis around?

Mr Muir: You might find this response strange, but you and I have a lot of common positions on this. It is not sustainable for the farming community. It causes untold mental distress and financial hardship. It is not sustainable for us. We cannot just keep going up and up, because the Northern Ireland block grant and our budget is not doing that. We have to get levels down. We owe it to everyone to do so.

You talked about wildlife intervention. My predecessor announced that, in the form of a non-selective cull. It was subject to judicial review, which was successful. We have to take lessons on wildlife intervention from that. I understand the frustration about the pace at which we are going out to consult on wildlife intervention options, but the reason that we are doing that is that we are trying to do it right. I was taught something early in my life: either do something right, or do not do it at all. It is about making sure that we do it correctly. That means consulting on the wildlife intervention options, allowing people to come back in response to that and considering the responses.

I reassure the Committee that I will respect the science and evidence. If they deliver inconvenient truths, we need to respect those and act on them. That is where I sit. We have to understand that the science and evidence is varied, and that is why we need to interrogate it. I understand that there are different sources on this, and we will consider those in finding a way forward. I have been clear that there has to be a wildlife intervention and that it will play a role in dealing with TB.

There are also issues around supporting people and that people pillar, which relates to culture and training. It is about the real impact of fatalism around the level of TB infections and cattle. We need much more focus on risk-based approaches to movements, biosecurity on farms and double fencing. We need to use every tool that we have to reduce this. The ultimate aim has to be eradication. We have an obligation in law to do that. I reassure people that I know that this is an important issue not just for the Committee but for members' constituents and the farming community and that I will do what I can on it.

I have met farmers when I have been out and about, and some of them have said to me, "I'm 70, I'm 80, and this has been going on for decades". I am conscious of its having been a concern. The difference now is that the levels are totally and utterly unsustainable. We are at historic levels, and they have to be brought down. We have no option. If that means taking difficult decisions, I will do that.

Mr T Buchanan: OK, but when can we expect to see that reduction begin?

Mr Muir: Cattle interventions, such as risk-based trading and biosecurity on farms, are available now, and we will support the farming community if they wish to proceed with those interventions. It is up to them. We are ready to go.

In relation to wildlife interventions, we will consult in spring of next year, consider the responses to that consultation, and then there will be legislation. Unfortunately, that will be in the next mandate, because we lost two years of the mandate.

The other issue is the regionalised approach. We are ready to go on that. We are moving on this issue. We have put resources into it. I have put additional resources into blood testing as well.

Mr T Buchanan: I will leave it at that.

Another issue is something that, we know, you are fairly passionate about: climate change. If all of us in the room are to be realistic about it, we know that we are not going to meet the targets by 2030, 2050 or whatever. From a realistic point of view, those targets are not going to be met. That is having a knock-on effect on infrastructure projects and all of that. Would there not be some merit in revisiting that, looking at the targets and seeking to reduce them even slightly so that they do not have the same knock-on effect on the infrastructure projects and all that is taking place? There may be a possibility of meeting targets that are slightly lower than they are at the minute. Is there merit in looking at that again and coming back with something that can be achieved?

Mr Muir: I think that you know what my answer will be to that. I am passionate about climate action, because it has a real impact on Northern Ireland and beyond. In a recent poll, over 70% of people said that they wanted to see politicians taking more action on climate change. Climate change is a reality here. The issues we are talking about — Asian hornets, bluetongue and the diseases that are coming to our shores — are the result, partly, of climate change.

The legislation sets out the pathway ahead and our legal obligations, which I am committed to meeting. I am doing that not just because of legal obligations but because of the opportunities. I want to create good green jobs in Northern Ireland; we should not be left behind other countries that are following the road to decarbonisation. It is wrong that we should expose our businesses and, most important, our households, particularly people who are less well-off, to the risks of energy shocks and prices going up at the behest of dictators who own fossil fuels. Investing in renewables presents opportunities to bring down bills. That is why I am doing it.

I understand that there is a difference of opinion, but I believe in my heart and soul in a just transition. The Assembly agreed to establish a just transition commission — everyone voted for it — that would hold me, my Department and all other Departments to account to make sure that there is a fair and just way forward. I will continue to engage with my partners in the Executive so that we can get that commission set up. There is a legal obligation to have a just transition commission, and it is important that it be put in place. Hopefully that would reassure you on some of your questions. I have been clear that agriculture must be represented on the just transmission commission. We want not just one person on it but two. There need to be two representatives from agriculture on the commission.

Mr T Buchanan: I am sure that, as a Department, you would like to lead the way on climate change, yet I saw a report that so many vehicles are used in your Department and that maybe only six of them are electric vehicles. When it comes to this issue, how is your Department setting an example and leading the way? That is only a report that I read; I do not know how accurate it is, but I read it in the press.

Mr Muir: Katrina will answer that. [Laughter.]

Mrs Godfrey: That is an absolutely fair point in the sense that we need to lead by example. We have agreed a new fleet policy. Our approach is that, wherever it is viable and sensible, we will opt for electric and hybrid vehicles. But flip it the other way, Tom, and imagine the outrage if we had decided that we were going to get rid of perfectly serviceable vehicles.

Mr Muir: You would be criticising me. [Laughter.]

Mrs Godfrey: We would be criticised.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): And rightly so, Tom. [Laughter.]

Mrs Godfrey: That would do the planet no good at all. We have to get the best use out of the machinery and vehicles that we have. We cannot just suddenly dump them and say that we want to be green. That would not be being green at all. We are, possibly, the first Department to have agreed a new fleet policy, and we are clear on our way forward. Sadly, however, we cannot just get rid of the past.

Mr T Buchanan: I just threw that in there.

Mr Muir: Do not worry; we are putting the wheels in motion.

Mrs Godfrey: Literally. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Boom, boom.

Ms Finnegan: I will not keep you for long; all of the questions have been asked at this stage.

Mr Muir: You are grand.

Ms Finnegan: All of the bluetongue questions that I had have been covered. I reiterate my colleagues' comments and commend the quick actions of the Department and all the staff involved in dealing with the bluetongue outbreak. That cannot be overstated.

The majority of farms in the North are smaller operations. What specific benefits would those farmers gain from participating in the genotype scheme?

Mr Muir: There are clear benefits. The scheme is a game changer, because it allows us to get a greater picture of the national herd. The Department has put significant funding into the scheme, and we are looking to ensure that we can, essentially, transform how we approach these issues. We have talked an awful lot about TB, and I acknowledge the concerns around that. The scheme will allow us to make more knowledgeable decisions about breeding, as well as wider issues beyond TB. We are investing in that and leading on it, and I am glad to get the support of other parties for it.

Ms Finnegan: What percentage of farmers in the South have enrolled in the scheme to date?

Mr Muir: I do not have the exact percentages for the South.

Mrs Godfrey: We will write to the Committee, if that is helpful.

Mr Muir: We can write back on that.

Ms Finnegan: OK, no problem.

I am getting feedback from farmers in my constituency, and one question that is continually asked is whether you foresee the introduction of a sheep scheme. The farm sustainability payment has been cut in order to pay for other schemes, such as beef schemes, but no sheep scheme has been introduced.

Mr Muir: We left the EU — we can debate that on another day, because we will run out of time — so we had to set up a new sustainable agriculture programme. Its key interventions — support for the farm sustainability payment and farm sustainability standards — will be critical for the pathway ahead. We have agreed that, and it will come in on 1 January 2026.

I have always been clear about two things in relation to the farm sustainability payment. I echo the words of my predecessor: it was designed to be a safety net to support farmers. We will have a range of interventions to support the farming community over the time ahead. Farming with Nature forms part of that. With the farm sustainability payment and farm sustainability standards in place, we can move resources towards rolling out Farming with Nature. We need to do that, because it is really important that we support farmers in the work that they do.

When it comes to sheep support, I have said before — I will honour my word — that, when we get the farm sustainability payment in place, we can move resources towards scoping out a sheep support scheme. Not having such a scheme previously was an inequity, and I want to put it in place. A sheep scheme will have real benefits for animal health and welfare. The scheme will not be based on headage; it will probably be farm-based. The work to deliver sheep support has started, and we will engage with stakeholders around that.

Ms Finnegan: OK, thank you. TB has been discussed widely today. You have stated here today that the levels are unsustainable. Farmers say that every week in our constituencies and at the Committee.

As you know, the island of Ireland is one disease control area and, as you have said, bovine TB does not recognise borders. You have recently secured Shared Island funding for TB, which is welcome. However, we still do not have an integrated, all-island strategy for eradication. In the South, a targeted wildlife intervention, including controlled culling of badgers in the most affected areas, is in place. However, in the North, the absence of a similar approach is an issue that is repeatedly raised by farmers who operate under enormous pressure. Do you agree that, alongside the Shared Island investment, the next logical step must be a coordinated all-island strategy, including humane wildlife interventions where evidence shows they are effective, to finally bring down TB rates and give farming families the certainty that they need?

Mr Muir: There is a different legislative set-up in the South as regards wildlife interventions. We need to be conscious of that. We are doing that cooperation. This regionalised approach demonstrates that. We will work through that and, if there are further areas of cooperation, we will cooperate: it makes a lot of sense. Our focus at the moment is to consult on the wildlife intervention options.

I have to learn lessons from the judicial review (JR) — we all need to do that — on the process that has to be followed. That is why I am not going to be drawn on any specific wildlife intervention options. We also need to respect the scientific evidence. In the UK and Ireland, we need to look at how the situation has developed and to learn the lessons from it and then go forward. I recognise the importance of this. I understand and will say again that the wildlife intervention is a key part of it, but there are also measures that we can take in relation to cattle. If people want to see the disease driven down, they should come to me, saying, "Give us the support. Work with the farming community on those measures. Support farmers with biosecurity on the farm, risk-based training and double fencing". That is stuff that we can put in place, and we are prepared to work with people on it. As ever, we want to work in conjunction with the farming community.

Any support that can be given, particularly on the regionalised approach, will be appreciated, because leadership is about taking the difficult decisions, which I am prepared to do, but I need people's support so that we can deliver for the farming community on what is a critical issue.

Ms Finnegan: OK. I agree with the vast majority of that. With respect, Minister, I have heard time and again about the JR and wildlife intervention. My understanding from the reading of it is that the JR was about the consultation, not the wildlife intervention specifically. However, I hear the JR being brought up time and again.

Mr Muir: I read through the JR — you probably have as well — but, as you know, it considered one element and did not go into the rest of it.

Mrs Godfrey: Our understanding of the steps that you would need to take to reach a sound position has evolved and been formed by the judgement. However, you are absolutely right: the judgement itself did not deal with all the issues that we now know that we have to deal with. It would not be in anybody's interest for a false step to be made here. That would be unpicked again, which is absolutely the last thing that anybody would want. Therefore, we have to step through this with care, and that is very much what is happening now, with the consultation coming out in the spring.

Ms Finnegan: Thank you. That is fine.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Minister, you are being generous with your time. I will just finish with two

questions, because I did not get enough out of you there.

I thank Áine — I always have to check your names, because I get Aoife and Áine mixed up.

Ms Finnegan: That is OK. We are always being mixed up.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): The first one is about additional support. We previously had a lot of interaction with the mushroom sector about legislative change. Now we are coming into the storm season. Is there any additional support for non-land-based activity, whether that is in the horticulture, arable or whichever other space?

Mr Muir: At Question Time on Tuesday, I outlined the range of interventions that we are making, particularly in horticulture. We also just have to understand that leaving the EU has not been easy — I will say no more — but a lot of work has gone into putting together sustainable agriculture programmes, and we continue to roll out a range of measures. In the time ahead, we will be able to see the benefits of that. Another thing that came up at Question Time on Tuesday was the sustainable farm investment programme that we are rolling out. That is important in supporting capital purchases and is, in many instances, an example of the just transition, as it is about how we support people in using technology.

You mentioned the mushroom sector. I am very concerned about its situation as a result of UK immigration policy. There is a stark difference between the North and the South in that regard, and the mushroom industry is feeling the consequences of it. I have sent many letters to the UK Government on the issue, but their lack of flexibility in recognising our unique situation in Northern Ireland is a concern for me, in relation not just to mushrooms but —

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Fishers.

Mr Muir: — to fishers and the agri-food sector more broadly. The labour challenges are severe.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): This is my final question. You will have heard of Natural England, but I am not sure whether you are aware of its key guiding principles for ammonia reduction. It has the really good principle of mitigation and betterment. That means that, when a planning application is being considered, the whole farm, rather than just the aspect that is in the application, is looked at. Have you engaged with the NIEA about that? It is about DAERA unblocking the planning pipeline and our also seeing wider betterment.

Mr Muir: I will seek more information about what has been published: that is under way. Anyone who wants to talk to me about ammonia should come to me after they have read the Office for Environmental Protection (OEP) report on it.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): To be fair, Natural England also sits under the auspices of the OEP, so I am reasonably confident that it will have read those reports, Minister.

Mr Muir: The OEP's report is about ammonia in Northern Ireland: my Department was previously acting unlawfully.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): There are UK-wide targets as well, Minister. We are still part of the UK.

Mr Muir: There are, yes — I understand that — but the ammonia levels in Northern Ireland are on a different scale. We are working through what the OEP has published. I am committed to finding a way forward that reduces ammonia emissions — we have to do that — and deals with practical issues, such as replacement sheds. I will be engaging with stakeholders, such as the Ulster Farmers' Union and Northern Ireland Environment Link, in the next few weeks.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): We understand that, and we share that ambition, but we also want there to be capability for the betterment of our farms, which means unblocking the planning blockage.

Mr Muir: Chair, I understand the importance of the issue to the farming community, particularly when it comes to the animal welfare commitments for the pig and poultry sectors that relate to farrowing and the better chicken commitment. We understand the challenges that are emerging.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Michelle, is your point genuinely very short?

Miss McIlveen: Yes. I have raised the issue with the Minister since his first day in office. It is about support for the sectors that are vulnerable to the weather. Our first engagement was about potato farmers, and there are the mushroom growers and others that can fall into different categories. What progress been made on the crisis framework that was mooted?

Mr Muir: I saw your question for written answer, and I will engage with officials about that. We were lucky last winter but not the winter before that, particularly when it came to the potato sector. We need to step through the exact arrangements for supporting people through a difficult winter. I will check with senior officials about that issue: I understand your concern.

Miss McIlveen: In the past, fishermen have also needed intervention, so I am alert to that.

Mr Muir: It is a legitimate point.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Minister, thank you for your time. You will recognise that we only have 15 or 16 months left in the mandate, and there is a lot on our plate. I will invite you back to the Committee as soon as possible in the new year, if we can liaise through the various offices to do that.

Mr Muir: Fair enough.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you for your time and your openness to questions today.

Mr Muir: Thank you.