Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Ferguson): I welcome Lynsey Moore, director of European strategy and international relations in the Executive Office (TEO); and Stephen Hamilton-Shields, assistant director in TEO for the Windsor Framework and Democratic Scrutiny Committee. I invite you to brief the Committee.

Ms Lynsey Moore (The Executive Office): Thank you, Chair. As previously advised, we have engaged extensively with Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) colleagues on the regulation since it was notified to us at proposal stage. The consistent messaging from Departments is that product safety sits solely with the Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS) and is not within the policy remit of any of the NICS Departments.

To establish whether there was wider policy interest across the NICS and to see whether someone could give oral evidence to Committee on the impact of the regulation locally, we had further engagement with colleagues from the Department for the Economy, the Department for Communities and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. As a result of those discussions, there is no further movement on the previously stated position. In all our discussions with Departments, we have consistently been referred to the Office for Product Safety and Standards, which sits under the Department for Business and Trade in Westminster.

We come here today to assure the Committee that we have engaged extensively, not just with the Departments that I mentioned but across all NICS Departments, including at the stages of the original explanatory memorandum on the regulation and again on the revised explanatory memorandum, which, I understand, you also received, to ensure that there was no cut-across to any departmental responsibilities.

The Chairperson (Ms Ferguson): Thank you, Lynsey. I will open the floor to members.

Mr Martin: Thanks very much, Lynsey and Stephen, for coming along today. Apologies, I cannot do two things at once, as my wife frequently points out and as I was attempting to there.

You mentioned that you engaged extensively: can you tell me a bit more about what that looked like? You might have described it on the way through, but I did not catch at all.

Ms Moore: Yes, absolutely. It might be helpful if I talked a bit about the processes that we deploy when we have a notification of a new regulation or amendment to regulation. We have an extensive database for each piece of legislation covered under the Windsor framework. Against that, we have a departmental policy lead or departmental policy interest in the case of reserved or excepted matters. When we receive a notification or even a draft explanatory memorandum from the Cabinet Office, we engage with the relevant leads through that system.

In the case of this regulation, we did not have a departmental lead or departmental interest. Therefore, we asked all the NICS Departments to consider it and reflect on whether it would have an impact on their remit. We did that at the stage of the original explanatory memorandum in 2023 and again last year, and, after discussion in the Committee, we re-engaged with Departments. We do that through the departmental contact points that we have for the Committee and for EU legislation. Subsequent to that, we discussed it further, specifically with the Department for Communities and the Department for the Economy to ensure that we were exploring the contents of the regulation and how that might cut across their responsibilities.

We have also done that through Stephen's team on a one-to-one basis, and we raised it at a cross-departmental meeting of our contact points on the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee. I also had further discussions with the Department for Communities and the Department for the Economy last Friday at director level to go through it further, knowing the position of the Committee and its decision to open an inquiry into it. Therefore, we discussed it again and explored any potential. We are guided by the opinions of our colleagues in the policy Departments that there is no cut-across to their responsibilities.

The Chairperson (Ms Ferguson): Thank you.

Ms Moore: I will just add to that. This is one of four pieces of legislation that we have identified. We have more than 4,000 pieces of legislation that we have leads for, so this is quite an isolated case. We discussed with the Chair and Deputy Chair how we would address this. We also plan to have further discussions with Departments and with the Cabinet Office on how to address reserved or excepted matters that do not come under devolved competence.

We will continue discussions, and I reassure the Committee that the number of pieces of legislation that are caught in this circumstance is very small.

Mr Martin: Thanks for that additional information, Lynsey. I think, from memory, that when the Committee considered this item, it was found to be unusual, because, as we drilled down into it, we discovered that no one is responsible for it in Northern Ireland, although we have toys and so forth. We reached out to the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE) and to councils and asked who was responsible for it. Essentially, you are saying that the experience that we have had, which is of being left in a situation where no one wants to pick this up, is unusual.

Ms Moore: Yes.

Mr Martin: OK. It is a small number of cases.

Ms Moore: Yes. We expect it to be a very small number.

Mr Martin: That is great.

Dr Aiken: Thank you very much indeed for your evidence. One of the things for which we, as MLAs, are responsible to the people of Northern Ireland is making sure that the things that they have are safe. There can be nothing more germane than the safety of our children. Are we saying that there is nobody responsible for toy safety because nobody has responsibility for this regulation?

Ms Moore: No. We are saying that the Office for Product Safety and Standards is responsible for the application of the regulation. We also understand that there is an enforcement role at local government level. The regulation is not within the remit of any Department, however.

Dr Aiken: So even though this EU regulation means that all toys in Northern Ireland have to be in accordance with the EU regulation and directive, the responsibility for toy safety lies with the GB-based organisation that has no responsibility for the EU directive. That means that nobody in Northern Ireland is responsible for the safety of those toys, unless you can explain it differently to me.

Ms Moore: My understanding is that the Office for Product Safety and Standards has responsibility for the regulation, so it will be responsible for ensuring that whatever regulation needs to be in place is in line with EU legislation. As Northern Ireland officials, we do not have responsibility for that; it sits with that organisation under the Department for Business and Trade. It is a reserved matter for which it has responsibility. In our understanding, the responsible body is the Office for Product Safety and Standards.

Dr Aiken: Even though the Office for Product Safety and Standards has responsibility only for UK regulations and has no view over EU regulations and directives, you are saying that it still has responsibility for toy safety in Northern Ireland, even though Northern Ireland is not under the regulations that come from the rest of our nation but is under the EU regulations.

Mr Stephen Hamilton-Shields (The Executive Office): That is our understanding.

Ms Moore: Yes. That is our understanding. I understand that the Office for Product Safety and Standards has been approached for information.

Dr Aiken: You said that there are four other pieces of legislation: will you outline those?

Mr Hamilton-Shields: We do not have them with us, but we will put together a pack and present it to the Committee.

Dr Aiken: OK. The situation is not satisfactory. As a father of four kids and grandfather to a couple of grandkids, I am not happy to hear the information coming from you today. Thank you.

Mr Buckley: With something like this, the issue of divergence and the reduction of consumer choice in particular comes up. Has there been any effort in your engagement — I think that I am right in picking up that you have talked to many of the Departments and others — to find out how many UK-only suppliers of toys to Northern Ireland there are?

Ms Moore: We do not have that information, and my understanding is that the Departments do not have it either.

Mr Buckley: OK. Is there no way of ascertaining how many?

Mr Hamilton-Shields: Sorry, Jonathan. It is something that we are happy to go back to our colleagues on, principally in Economy, but we will go back to the working group and put that question to it.

Mr Buckley: It is important. I understand that the British Toy and Hobby Association has indicated that most will want to supply both, but that gives me no reassurance. I am sure that there are small operators as well as big ones in the field, as well as those in the GB market who supply Northern Ireland, and this may cause them concern.

In its written evidence to us, SOLACE said that it expected:

would be completed. Who will carry out the regional-level engagement, given that everybody is shirking responsibility for it?

Ms Moore: That is a question that the Office for Product Safety and Standards will have to answer. We do not have that information.

Mr Buckley: OK. In your engagement with any of those individuals was that question not asked?

Ms Moore: Sorry, with which individuals?

Mr Buckley: With those in the Departments or in the United Kingdom Government and their associated offices. Is no one there asking who will consult local business on the regulation's impact? We need an impact assessment.

Ms Moore: As this is a reserved matter and the responsibility of the Office for Product Safety and Standards, we expect that it will take that forward.

Mr Buckley: You have had a lot of engagement with the Office for Product Safety and Standards: am I right in saying that?

Ms Moore: We have had engagement with the NICS Departments. We act in a —

Mr Buckley: Conduit?

Ms Moore: — coordination role across Departments to ensure that the notifications from the Committee are circulated. We also provide the Committee with the names of the relevant officials who will give evidence. That is our role in trying to ascertain whether there is someone from the NICS or an official from one of the Departments who can do that.

Mr Buckley: OK. Thanks, Chair.

Mr Kearney: In the course of your engagements, is it reasonable to conclude that the Department in England is aware that nobody in the North has a local responsibility for this issue?

Ms Moore: We have definitely communicated that to the Cabinet Office, yes.

Mr Kearney: Is it reasonable to conclude that your Department and the Executive do not command the authority to reverse an issue that is a reserved matter?

Ms Moore: Our understanding is that this does not cut across any of the devolved responsibilities of NI Ministers.

Mr Kearney: I make a slightly different point. To your knowledge, do you have the authority to change an issue that is a reserved matter?

Ms Moore: Of course not. No.

Mr Kearney: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Ms Ferguson): Do any other members want to ask questions? No?

I thank Stephen and Lynsey for their presentation.

Mr Hamilton-Shields: Thank you, Chair and members.