Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We will now commence the formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Sign Language Bill. The papers for the agenda item are the same as those for the previous item and start at page 140. You have also been provided with a clean copy of the Bill for your convenience.

I will read out the title of the clause before I formally ask the Question on it. Departmental officials are in attendance today to hear the conclusion of the Committee's deliberations. In the Public Gallery are Tommy McAuley and Gerard Flynn. You are both welcome to the session.

Members, if you have any final comments, please alert me that you wish to make a comment for the record on the clause in question before I formally put the Question on whether the Committee is content with the clause as drafted or amended.

Kellie, you indicated that you wish to do that, but please do so when we are at the relevant clause.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The long title is:

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The Committee agreed to clause 1 as drafted during its informal clause-by-clause deliberations.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): In clause 2, page 2, line 13, the departmental amendment inserts "free of charge".

In clause 2, page 2, line 15, the amendment is to leave out "deaf children" and instead insert "young people who are deaf".

In clause 2, page 2, line 17, the Department's amendment, at the request of the Committee, is to leave out "children are persons under 19" and instead insert:

Do members have any comments?

Ms K Armstrong: While the targeting of young people is absolutely welcome, I am concerned that people over the age of 25 who become deaf through illness or injury are not included in the provision to be helped to learn or improve their proficiency in the language. Can that be noted in the report?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Kellie.

Is the Committee content with clause 2 as amended by the Department and to advise the Department to make what is meant by "promote" explicitly clear in the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM) by including an obligation on the provision of, but not limited to, the availability of classes?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I therefore confirm for the record that the Committee is content with clause 2 as amended by the Department and will make the request as outlined. Do members agree?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Clause 3 was also agreed at the Committee's informal clause-by-clause deliberations.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We agreed clause 4 as amended by the Department during our informal deliberations. In clause 4, page 3, line 7, the Department's amendment, as requested by the Committee, is to leave out "are subject to negative resolution" and insert:

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): In clause 5, page 3, line 27, the Department's amendment, as requested by the Committee, is to leave out "one person or group" and insert "two persons or groups".

In clause 5, page 3, line 27, the amendment is to leave out "acting on behalf" and instead insert:

Kellie, go ahead, please.

Ms K Armstrong: I have a concern. The amendment to clause 5(3)(b) mentions "two persons or groups". Originally, the Committee had talked about two persons or groups representing British Sign Language (BSL) and two from Irish Sign Language (ISL). We would like to see recognition that the two persons or groups mentioned by the Department in its amendment are not both from the same language. They would need to be of different languages: BSL and ISL.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Kellie.

I therefore ask, in the light of that, whether the Committee is content with clause 5 as amended by the Department and that we advise the Department to make what is meant by "the deaf community" more explicit to ensure that the "at least two persons or groups" are not two from the same part of the community?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I confirm that the Committee is content with the clause, as amended by the Department and will make the request, as outlined.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The clause was agreed at the informal clause-by-clause consideration.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The clause was agreed as amended by the Department at informal clause-by-clause scrutiny. The Department has proposed a number of amendments to clause 7 as follows:

in clause 7, page 5, line 1 leave out

and insert

in clause 7, page 5, line 4, after "acting", insert "on behalf or"; in clause 7, page 5, line 5 after "functions", insert "on behalf or"; in clause 7, page 5, line 15 after "relevant" insert "material or"; and, in clause 7, page 5, line 18 after "behalf" insert "or in the interests".

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): As requested by the Committee, the Department's amendment is at clause 8, page 5, line 27, to leave out "one person or group" and insert "two persons or groups", and clause 8, page 5, line 27 leave out "acting on behalf" and insert

Ms K Armstrong: In clause 8(1)(b), I have the same issue as before. Where it talks about two persons or groups, that needs to be one from each language.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you.

I therefore ask whether the Committee is content with clause 8, as amended by the Department, and that we advise the Department to make what is meant by "the deaf community" more explicit to ensure that the "at least two persons or groups" are not two from the same part of the community?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I confirm that the Committee is content with the clause, as amended by the Department, and will make the request, as outlined.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): As requested by the Committee, the Department's amendments are as follows: in clause 9, page 5, line 38 after "(b)" insert

and, in clause 9, page 6, line 4, leave out "5" and insert "3".

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): As requested by the Committee, the Department's amendment is at clause 10, page 6, line 25: leave out "are subject to negative resolution" and insert

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The Committee failed to reach a consensus on the need for an amendment to clause 11. It is the Bill Clerk's amendment No 18: in clause 11, page 6, line 33, leave out the word "normally".

Is the Committee content with clause 11 as drafted?

Ms K Armstrong: I am not happy. Clause 11(1)(b) refers to:

That excludes those over the age of 25 who will lose their hearing through illness or injury. I am not content with the word "normally" staying in.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I therefore confirm that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): This clause was agreed in the informal session.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The clause was agreed informally. Is the Committee content with clause 13?

Ms K Armstrong: I am not content, because it reflects back on clause 9. It states:

That excludes a number of people who will be part of the deaf community.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. Are you therefore content for the actions in clause 9 to be reiterated in relation to the report?

Ms K Armstrong: Yes, please.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I therefore confirm that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): That concludes the Committee's formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Sign Language Bill.

I thank the Department officials Iain Greenway, Tommy McAuley, who is with us today, and Gerard Flynn, who is also with us today, for all of their support and patience with our queries; Liz Marsh from the Assembly's Bill Office; Karen and Aidan from Research and Information Service (RaISe); and colleagues from Legal Services Office, Events, Education Service and Engagement for all their support during our call for evidence and scrutiny of the Bill.

A draft of the Committee's Bill report will be provided for initial review at next week's meeting, in the hope that it can be formally agreed the following week, with any edits that members wish to make.

I also would like to take the opportunity, members, to reflect on what has been an unprecedented but really successful and outstanding process of Committee scrutiny of the Sign Language Bill. The Committee recognised that the call for evidence for the Bill would require a vastly different approach from that that taken with other Bills. To facilitate access to the consultation process, events were held in Parliament Buildings, in Strabane, in Banbridge and online. Key stakeholders were enabled to submit by video using their first language, sign language, and that was facilitated through the use of a dedicated platform and then interpreted for the Committee. Oral signed evidence from key stakeholders who were deaf required two-way live interpreting at Committee meetings, and, when the Committee considered the Bill, that required post-meeting interpretation before being uploaded to the NI Assembly website. We hosted specific events with children and with the deafblind community, and we took evidence and advice over 13 meetings. Forty-two responses were received on Citizen Space, and 44 signed responses were received via WhatsApp. We also received approximately 20 written responses and briefings.

I will bring in members in a minute if they wish to make comment on the process, and I know that they will agree that we hope that the approach that we took and the resulting Bill will mark the start of a real and positive change for the deaf community in the North. I thank, on behalf of the Committee, the team at the Committee, which created, to a large extent, that process and put a huge amount of work into ensuring that it was effective and inclusive. I put on record our thanks for the huge amount of work that went into that. Members, we have time for you to take the opportunity if you wish to make any comment on the process that was utilised in the consideration of the Bill.

Ms K Armstrong: I reiterate the comments made by a representative from the British Deaf Association (BDA) who said it was the first time that they had ever been able to give evidence live at a Committee meeting where the translation was so seamless. That is a credit to the interpreters who were involved with us, to our clerking team and to the Assembly. It has been an absolute pleasure, and it has been a pleasure knowing that the deaf community felt that it was having its say and having input into something that was so important to it. Thank you to all the members of the team for that. It is very much appreciated by everyone, including me and, I know, a lot of the deaf community. Those people felt for the first time included in something that was so much about them, and they felt that they were absolutely part of the co-design.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I agree. There was strong evidence of co-design with the Department and a really strong commitment to that. I think that that is the correct way to make good legislation and that it is also the correct way to make people feel included and part of what is their Assembly. I sincerely acknowledge that. Members, I am sure that this is quite a big day for you, given your input into the Bill over a period of time.

Mrs Cameron: To add to the comments that have been made, this is vital and long-awaited legislation. It is about time that the deaf community had this provision. I warmly welcome it, and I thank everybody for their good work, particularly the Committee team, which has gone to extraordinary efforts to make this work and work well. The co-design that the Department has clearly undertaken over a long time will, hopefully, ensure that we have got this as right as we can.

Thank you, Chair, and I thank the entire team behind the Committee for a really good piece of work well done.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): The process was clear and educational in showing the rich, diverse and proud culture that the deaf community and sign language represent. They are beautiful languages in their own right. I have been really intrigued and interested, and I have been learning some sign language and hope to continue that journey. This is a starting point, and support, respect and encouragement of that culture needs to continue. I think that our report will heavily reflect those issues. Members, thank you. Go raibh míle, míle maith agaibh mar sin.