Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I welcome the new Youth Assembly Members. It is great to have you at the Committee today to speak to us. Hopefully, there will be lots of engagement with the Committee on a range of issues over the course of your term.

Everybody who is presenting today is a Member of the Youth Assembly. We have James Maginn, Dáire McConnell, Ellie Simpson, Neala Owens and Raphael MacMillan-Sharkey. You are very welcome, and thank you for giving up your time to come to speak to the Committee about our Committee Bill proposal on allowing all pupils the choice of wearing trousers as part of the school uniform. I will hand over to you to make some opening remarks or to give a presentation. I ask that it be up to 10 minutes in length, and we will then move into questions and answers from members. Over to you.

James, are you starting?

Mr James Maginn (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): Yes. First, I thank the Committee for allowing us to meet you today to discuss the proposal on a law to allow all pupils to wear trousers at school. I am a legacy Youth Assembly Member, and I am here to support the new Youth Assembly Members during their mandate.

The Youth Assembly was established in June 2021 and comprises 90 diverse Members from all constituencies, with representation from section 75 groups, care-experienced young people and those on free school meals. Our three main functions are engaging with the Northern Ireland Assembly and its Committees on inquiries and legislative scrutiny; carrying out our own committee-led project work; and consulting Departments and others on youth-related issues.

On Tuesday 13 January, we met to consider the Committee's consultation questions on the proposal. There were 48 current Members present, supported by 11 legacy Members. When Members were asked what mattered most when it came to school uniform, the most common response was "comfort". Comfort was mentioned more than equality, price or appearance. While some young people said that they felt comfortable in their uniform, a significant number reported feeling uncomfortable or very uncomfortable.

Comfort is not about preference or style. Discomfort affects the ability to focus, move freely and engage fully in student life. Members spoke about restrictive clothing, sensory sensitivities and long days spent sitting, walking and climbing stairs. Trousers were described as a more comfortable option for those everyday realities. One young person told us that, when pupils feel uncomfortable, it becomes harder to concentrate in class. Another said that school uniforms should not make pupils feel distracted or distressed during the school day.

From the perspective of young people, allowing them the choice to wear trousers is a straightforward way to reduce unnecessary discomfort without undermining the purpose of a school uniform. It does not remove uniformity but allows pupils to choose the option that best suits their comfort and ability to learn. The focus on comfort runs through the rest of our findings, alongside equality, dignity, safety and fairness.

I will hand over to Raphael, who will talk about how these issues connect to equality and dignity, particularly for girls.

Mr Raphael MacMillan-Sharkey (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): My name is Raphael, and I will speak on the theme of equality, which was one of the strongest messages to emerge from our consultation. When Youth Assembly Members were asked what mattered most when it came to school uniforms, "equality" was the second most common response. Throughout the discussion, young people said that current uniform rules do not treat all pupils equally. In particular, Members asked why boys are generally allowed to wear trousers as standard while girls are not. Many described that difference as being outdated and difficult to justify.

Young people repeatedly used words such as "unfair, "unequal" and "old-fashioned" when talking about gendered uniform rules. That was not simply about clothing choices. Members framed the issue as one of equal treatment and equal respect. One young person summed it up by saying that, if boys are allowed to wear trousers, girls should be allowed the same option. Others spoke about uniform rules reinforcing gender stereotypes and sending the message that girls should just accept being less comfortable than boys. That theme was also reflected in the agreement statements. Young people strongly agreed that allowing the choice to wear trousers would be fair.

Equality was also discussed in relation to the question of who is affected most by uniform rules. Members recognised that girls are disproportionately impacted by restrictions on trousers, particularly during their periods, in cold weather or when moving around school. Others highlighted the fact that pupils with disabilities, sensory needs or religious requirements can be further disadvantaged by rigid, gendered uniform policy. Importantly, young people also spoke about equality between schools. Many felt that it was unfair that whether a pupil can wear trousers depends on the school that they attend. Members expressed a desire for consistency, so that pupils across Northern Ireland are treated equally, regardless of school type or location.

Overall, Youth Assembly Members see the option to wear trousers as a simple but meaningful step towards greater equality in schools. It is not about removing uniforms or lowering standards but about ensuring that uniform policy applies fairly to all pupils.

I now hand over to Neala, who will focus on dignity.

Ms Neala Owens (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): My name is Neala Owens. School uniform is not just about appearance; it affects how safe, respected and confident pupils feel during the school day. For many young people, particularly girls, current uniform rules were described as undermining dignity rather than supporting it.

One of the clearest issues raised was period dignity. Members spoke openly about cramps, anxiety about leaks and the discomfort of managing menstruation while wearing skirts. Young people strongly agreed that allowing trousers would enhance period dignity. That statement received one of the highest agreement scores in the survey, with an average of 4·4, suggesting that a majority of students agreed with it.

Members also linked uniform rules to feelings of vulnerability. Many felt that skirts can leave pupils feeling exposed, particularly on stairs, in windy weather or when sitting in classrooms. Young people strongly agreed that allowing trousers would help girls to feel less exposed or vulnerable. We spoke about unwanted attention, comments and judgement linked to uniforms, and the belief that trousers could reduce those things. For Members, feeling safe in school is seen as a basic expectation, not something that should depend on uniform rules.

Issues of dignity were also raised in relation to inclusion. Members highlighted the fact that rigid uniform policies can be particularly challenging for pupils who are transgender, when it comes to feeling accepted or respected in their chosen gender; for non-binary pupils; for pupils with disabilities; and for pupils with religious modesty requirements. In those cases, uniform rules were described as being responsible for intensifying scrutiny rather than offering protection.

Overall, Members view dignity as central to an effective uniform policy. Allowing the choice to wear trousers is a practical way to protect pupils' dignity, reduce vulnerability and help young girls feel safer in their school environment.

I now hand over to Dáire, who will focus on practicality.

Mr Dáire McConnell (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): Dia daoibh. Dáire McConnell is ainm domh.

I will speak about practicality, which is another recurring theme in the Youth Assembly's discussion.

Young people spoke in practical terms about how uniforms work and do not work in everyday school life. Members highlighted the reality of the Irish climate: skirts were described as being impractical in cold, wet and windy conditions, while trousers were viewed as being more suitable all year round. One young person described how skirts blow in the wind, which leaves pupils cold, particularly during winter months.

Practicality was also discussed in relation to movement and activity. Members felt that trousers better supported walking between classes, sitting on floors, climbing stairs and participating in practical subjects. That was framed not as a preference but as a matter of functionality and needs during a normal school day. Young people also connected practicality to participation. Members recognised that comfort and safety were the most immediate impacts of allowing all young people the option of wearing trousers, with participation benefits following closely behind. That suggests that pupils see the wearing of trousers as removing small but persistent barriers that make school harder than it needs to be.

Importantly, Members did not see trousers as undermining school uniform standards; instead, they viewed them as a familiar item of school clothing that already exists in most schools. From their perspective, allowing trousers simply extends an existing, practical option to all pupils.

Overall, the evidence suggests that young people see the choice to wear trousers as a sensible adjustment that better affects the practical demands of school life without removing the structure or purpose of school uniforms.

I now hand over to Ellie, who will speak about personal autonomy and conclude on behalf of the Youth Assembly.

Ms Ellie Simpson (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): Hi. My name is Ellie. This is not about forcing anyone to wear trousers: it is about ensuring that pupils who want or need to wear trousers are not prevented from doing so.

Choice supports individuality while maintaining school identity. One young person explained that it should be possible to represent school pride while having the option of self-expression. Others noted that, in adult life and in the workplace, people are trusted to make appropriate clothing choices, so schools should help pupils prepare for that responsibility. However, we are also clear that the choice must be real. Many described situations in which trousers are technically allowed but stigma and judgement prevent pupils from wearing them. Members said that some schools will allow trousers but only after a meeting between parents and the school principal. Girls who wear trousers described how they felt judged, talked about or seen as being different. As a result, choice in policy does not always translate into choice in practice. That is why Members support a clear, consistent approach across all schools. They feel that a universal rule would help normalise trousers, reduce stigma and ensure that pupils are treated equally, regardless of the school that they attend.

Members also recognised that implementation matters. While views differed on whether exceptions should exist, young people were clear that any policy should be applied fairly, consistently and with the voice of pupils at its centre.

The Youth Assembly's position is clear: young people overwhelmingly support allowing all pupils the choice to wear trousers at school. They see it as a practical and proportionate change that improves comfort, supports equality, protects dignity and reduces stigma. The proposal needs to become law now. We would like the option to wear trousers to be a mandatory requirement in all schools in Northern Ireland. Young people should be involved at every stage of the Bill, especially those with disabilities, those with religious requirements, LGBTQ young people and those with sensory issues. Finally, each school uniform policy must include the option to wear trousers. When developing the Bill, we encourage the Committee to consider the lived experiences that we have outlined.

Thank you for listening to young people's voices. We welcome your questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thanks to all of you. I am sure that your first time presenting to a Committee is a daunting experience. It is great to have you here, and hopefully this Q & A will be painless for you.

Nothing in your evidence surprises me, because, when we looked at the School Uniform (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill, I do not think that we heard from a young person who said anything other than, "We think that there should be a clear right to wear trousers" and that that right should be universally applied. It is reassuring that there has been no shift in opinion since we received that evidence. In your survey, there was 98% support for a legislative proposal, which gives the Committee a positive platform on which to take forward the Bill.

I will reflect on the Minister's views on the issue. Since the School Uniforms Bill passed through its stages in the Assembly, there have been lots of questions on it. The Minister's position is that that legislation gives pupils the right to campaign locally, at school level, and make the case for wearing trousers. What is your view of that approach?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Although people can campaign locally for the right of girls to wear trousers, they should not have to do that. Younger people in particular should not have to campaign for the right to wear trousers: it should be a right for all.

Mr Maginn: I think what Raphael is trying to say is that, while many schools are moving towards letting pupils apply for the option to wear trousers, we still consider that to be a barrier. The younger children, from the first year to the third year, may not be able to campaign for the right. We should ensure that the option to wear trousers is a complete blanket opportunity for all young people. That would cover those feeling stress or anxiety and those without the resources to campaign for that.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Ellie referenced preparing young people for their future in the workplace. It would be odd if you took a job and were told, "You have to wear a skirt for this job, but we will allow you to campaign for the right to wear something different, or you can ask for special permission". There is a disconnect there.

You mentioned equality, but you also referenced equality between schools. I have been contacted by some parents who are looking at the options in their areas for their kids' move from P7 to post-primary education. They say that, in their area learning communities, no school currently affords pupils the right to wear trousers. In that instance, if the right to wear trousers is an issue for the pupil, it will push them out of their community to find a school that will afford them that right. That is not acceptable. The point about equality of provision across the schools is also relevant.

The Minister could make the change this afternoon if he wanted to. The Committee is proposing legislation because he seems dead set against doing so. What would you say to the Minister about the actions that he should take?

Ms Owens: I just think that trousers should be accessible to every pupil, no matter what school they go to or what their beliefs are. Having the choice to wear trousers should be compulsory, and it is kind of disappointing that it is not. Young people widely approve of having that choice and feel strongly about it. I feel that, in 2026, having that choice should be compulsory.

Mr McConnell: I do not think that anybody has a problem with what the Education Minister has proposed so far, but it does not go far enough. It puts the power in the hands of principals, but I have heard from a lot of people that you have to ask for permission. You should not have to ask for permission; it should be in guidelines from the Education Department. He is the Education Minister, and he should make it that we are allowed to wear trousers. It should not be done on a school-by-school basis, because he is the Education Minister for every school, not just some schools. If anything is going to be put to the Floor, it should cover all schools, not just a minority or a majority.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is great. Thank you.

Mr Sheehan: Go raibh maith agaibh, agus míle buíochas libh as an chur i láthair.

I agree with everything that has been said. Girls should have the right to wear trousers if they so wish. They should not be forced to wear trousers; if they want to wear a skirt, that is OK. However, for all the reasons that you mentioned — comfort, practicality, equality and vulnerability — they should have that choice.

The Committee tabled amendments to the uniforms Bill when it was passing through the Assembly. Unfortunately, the Speaker rejected those amendments, and the Committee has now taken a decision to bring forward its own Bill to give all pupils the right to wear trousers. The Minister could do that with the stroke of a pen: are you aware of that?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Yes.

Mr Sheehan: You are familiar with the way in which the legislation and the Minister's guidelines work. Unfortunately, the fact that we have to bring forward a Committee Bill to ensure that that happens costs money. It costs thousands of pounds to employ drafters to draft legislation, it takes up Committee time and it takes up time in the Assembly that could be used for other legislation or to deal with other useful items. Has the Youth Assembly had any direct communication with the Minister on the issue?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: None.

Mr McConnell: No, not yet.

Mr Sheehan: I advise you to write to him and let him know how you feel. The issue regarding trousers is not just about equality. Another one of our amendments that was rejected acknowledged that young people with special needs are distressed by certain types of materials and how having a tie around their necks can cause anxiety and so on. All of that should have been prescriptive in the uniforms Bill, but it was not.

I have no real question for you. Does anyone want to comment on anything that I have said?

Mr Maginn: The Youth Assembly has been behind all the proposals in the School Uniforms Bill. The Youth Assembly, together, would really like to see more movement on making the choice to wear trousers universal. We are still completely behind what the Minister has brought forward, but we are also completely open to anything more.

Mr McConnell: We are completely behind the reforms so far, but I personally — I think that I speak for the Youth Assembly on this — will always have an appetite for a little more. You will always ask for a little more. If we feel that that is possible, we will definitely try to get it. The Education Minister should listen, and I think that he will listen. I hope that what we have come here today to do will effect change.

Mr Sheehan: Good luck with that.

Mrs Mason: Go raibh maith agat, agus maith sibh.

Well done: the presentation was fantastic.

Ellie mentioned something that had not registered with me about the girls who wear trousers being seen as different. Will you expand on that a wee bit? It had not occurred to me.

Ms Simpson: At my school, only one girl wore trousers. As far as I am aware, she left due to forms of bullying in and out of school. She is now homeschooled. Typically, girls who wear trousers have been made fun of to their faces and behind their backs. That has always happened, and it is why most girls shy away from wearing trousers. You have to talk to someone just to be allowed to wear trousers, and then, when you come into school wearing them, you are treated differently, even though you feel slightly more comfortable. If the law allows you to wear trousers, it will make girls feel more comfortable and less ostracised because of their clothing choices.

Mrs Mason: Brilliant.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: My sister goes to the same school as me, and she wears trousers. A lot of people in my school wear trousers. A girl in my class wears trousers, and a girl in the class with whom we often work wears trousers. A lot of people wear trousers, and the process for doing so in my school is not too hard. I am not sure about other schools. There is no bullying about it in my school. I have asked a few people in my class about it, and a lot of them have said, "Why not? Obviously, we should be able to wear trousers". If the law is brought in, the bullying will be phased out until it is eradicated in the near future.

Mrs Mason: That is an excellent point.

Ms Owens: If we brought in a law that allowed trousers to be worn and they became more popular for girls, it would not be such an issue. I wore trousers when I went to playschool, but it was not the same when I went to primary school. If we started wearing trousers from a younger age, it would not be an issue and people would not be ostracised because it would be such a normal thing to see. People would be more comfortable with it and would not think of it as being a random decision, and there would be less bullying.

Mrs Mason: Absolutely. You have made excellent points.

You mentioned that a lot of people in your school wear trousers: has any harm been caused or have any issues been raised because they wear trousers?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: No. All the people in our class and the teachers are fine. It is about the people who do not want girls to wear trousers. Our school is good at dealing with bullying, and there is no criticism of wearing trousers. It is a lot easier to let people wear trousers than it is to force them to wear skirts.

Mrs Mason: When people talk to me about the issue, there are normally several views. Some people think that it is crazy that we are still talking about it in this day and age. Another view is that, if girls are so annoyed about it, they can wear shorts under their skirts or lobby their principal for change, although the reality is that they can still say no. Another view is that girls could just do it anyway, because who cares about the legislation or what the principal says? What is your view? If someone used that argument against providing for change through legislation, what would you say?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: I would say, "Honestly, it is not for you to give your opinion on what I should wear". It is their opinion. We live in a country with free speech, so why not let people do what they want? School is about preparing young people for later in life, when they will be able to wear trousers in most places. If someone has a problem with wearing trousers, they should talk to the pupils and the principal. If the principal agrees with them, they should be sacked.

Mr Maginn: A lot of what we do in the Youth Assembly is rights-based. You spoke about trousers being an issue in this day and age. Under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, you have the right to freedom of expression, and allowing all pupils to wear trousers is a good way of ensuring that right.

Ms Owens: We want to mention PE uniforms. It is not included in the proposal, and we want to know whether it will be. You mentioned wearing shorts. Some pupils are not comfortable wearing shorts either, as they find them more restrictive than skirts. Skorts are another big issue for PE. We believe that in PE we should be allowed to wear leggings or tracksuit bottoms — whichever you are more comfortable with.

Mrs Mason: Absolutely. When we were considering our amendments, branded items was a key issue. Often, the branded items are the PE items. We looked at tabling an amendment that would limit the number of branded items so that schools cannot make you wear a certain PE uniform. Again, it should be about wearing something that you are comfortable in. You should be able to wear whatever you want. In the GAA recently, we have seen girls winning their battle to wear shorts, because they did not want to wear skorts.

Fantastic. Thank you very much. It was really insightful.

Mrs Guy: Thanks, folks, and congratulations on taking up your new role. When I spoke on the issue in the Chamber this week, I made a genuine appeal to the Minister and said that, if he will not listen to us, maybe he will listen to you. I hope that he is watching, that he will listen to you and that he acts. How does it make you feel to know that the Minister has the power to do this right now and that we do not need to bring forward legislation? He is actively changing the guidance on school coats, so how does it make you feel that he will not take action on this issue?

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: I honestly find it annoying that the person who is supposed to represent children and those in the Youth Assembly, who are also children, is not even bothering to do something as simple as that for us.

Mr Maginn: I think that what Raphael is saying is that the Youth Assembly is always open to dialogue with the Minister and that we are completely open to any discussion of the topic with him.

Mr McConnell: Our door is always open to the Minister if he wishes to speak to any of us.

Mrs Guy: You are speaking today, so I hope that he is listening.

How do you feel about us as an Assembly and our inability to get simple things such as this done? Does that make you lose confidence in us as an Assembly? There are a lot of big issues out there that we have to tackle, and, if we cannot get something such as this done, it does not bode well, does it? We are not very popular at the minute.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: The Assembly has to use its time at Committee hearings, including this one, and during the drafting of a Bill, which, I think, will happen. I do not want it to sound as though I am against the Bill, but the fact that we still have to think about this in 2026 is a huge waste of time. People are allowed free expression, but we still have to consider whether girls should be able to wear trousers.

Ms Owens: I admire your dedication to pursuing the matter through legislation and to getting new proposals. It is disheartening that it did not go through in the School Uniforms Bill, but, with the right proposals and recommendations, there will, hopefully, be some change and reforms.

Mr McConnell: I completely agree. It is a simple topic. However, at times, it is divisive.

The fact that stuff is getting done is important. I thank the Committee for listening to us. From personal experience, I have been looked down on many's the time by someone who is older than I am or has a little more experience on a subject, but I feel as though I am really welcome in this room and that I have been listened to. I really appreciate that from the entire Committee, and I am sure that everyone else appreciates it as well.

Mrs Guy: We really appreciate your being here.

I have one last question. You know that, if you go down a high street now, you will see girls wearing trousers. They choose to wear trousers. That is normal in 2026, not controversial. Some people have suggested that not legislating for it and leaving it with schools is about control and the ability to control what young women in particular wear: is that a fair statement?

Mr Maginn: A large portion of what school is meant to do is prepare you for later life and the outside world. School should reflect the outside environment. I do not know whether anyone else has anything to say on that.

Mr McConnell: My mother runs a non-profit organisation that partners with the Department for Communities and the Department of Education. It is a majority woman workplace, and none of them are required to wear skirts. I personally think — I am fairly sure my mother would attest to this — that it would be seen as obscene if she went in and said, "You all have to wear skirts. I do not make the rules". I do not see how it is fair that children under the rule of the Department of Education should be held to different standards from the adults. If you go into any school in the modern day, you will see that most of the female teachers are wearing trousers. Why are they not supposed to wear skirts? Why should the girls have to?

Mrs Guy: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thanks, Dáire. I am glad you feel welcome, because that is something that the Committee prioritises so that we can engage with young people. I also understand the frustration when there is engagement and decisions are taken that do not reflect your views. I understand that that is frustrating.

Ms Hunter: Thank you all very much. There are some familiar faces and some new faces. It is brilliant to have you here, and I love to see the passion from our young people on the topic. Today, you are really shaping the conversation, and we are delighted to have you here.

I will echo what other members have said. I am sitting here feeling comfortable and cosy in a pair of jeans, and I had that choice. It helps facilitate my role as an MLA, and it allows me to focus on my work. I am delighted that the Committee is bringing forward the conversation about trousers, because it is a basic ask. It is a denial of your fundamental rights to comfort and equality. I went to an American high school, where you could wear whatever you wanted and express yourself. I am frustrated, because I remember what it is like to be a teenager, and it is frustrating when you do not feel listened to. I am delighted that you are here.

A number of my questions have already been asked, but I have one core question. Do you find it strange that Ministers often talk about equality, ending violence against women and girls in Northern Ireland and amplifying female voices in our society but all young people, particularly young women, have been silenced on this topic? They are not being given the same fundamental rights as their male classmates. I would love to hear your perspective on that.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: I agree with you about that. As a feminist, I find it strange for people to say that they want to end violence against women and girls and then not do something that could actually help. People talk about ending violence against women and girls, and then some of the people who say it — maybe even some of the people in the room — do not honestly believe in it and are just trying to get votes.

Mr Maginn: The Youth Assembly as a whole entirely supports the ending violence against women and girls campaign. As a legacy member of the Youth Assembly, I had the opportunity to compile a report on young women's rights in schools. Ensuring that all pupils have access to trousers could decrease unwanted attention. We accept that that could help decrease the situations where young women feel uncomfortable or discriminated against. We support any discussion about this, and we are thankful that the Assembly has taken forward the campaign to end violence against women and girls. We can really see that all members are moving it forward.

Ms Owens: Most students have to walk to school, which, as I said, can increase unwanted negative attention if you are in your school uniform, like getting shouted at. Wearing trousers could really decrease that and make you feel safer when walking to school. Sometimes there are after-school activities, and you have to walk home from school later at night. That can cause anxiety, especially if you live in the city. I do not — I get a bus — but, for young girls who do, it can cause anxiety and stress walking to school and back.

Mr McConnell: I second that from personal experience. I have two sisters — a twin sister and an older sister — who both wear skirts to school. I have to get two buses to school. It does not happen to me, thankfully, but, when I walk with my sisters through the city centre, I see the looks they get. If I did not have such self-control, I would probably go over and smack those people. Bringing in trousers would negate that and remove that risk; it would help a lot with ending violence towards women and girls.

Ms Simpson: There are Committees that focus on social media, and you have probably seen it: school uniforms in the last 20 years have been sexualised a lot, and that is one of the main reasons why girls do not feel comfortable. Whether it is from people their own age or way older people, they do not feel comfortable. In schools, there are teachers who will measure your skirt's distance from your knee. The teachers complain about us rolling up our skirts, but some people just want the uniform to look better because we have no option. We are stuck with skirts.

Ms Hunter: I feel that a lot of it is about policing girls and their decisions. I have heard about some extremely uncomfortable incidents when a child has been told, "Pull that skirt down. You do not want to distract your teachers", and it is totally inappropriate.

What you have said is extremely helpful, and you rightly talked about the objectification of women. We have had huge conversations about upskirting and all the horrific, inappropriate things that happen to young girls, yet, when the Minister had the opportunity to draw a line under that, he did not take it, which is disappointing.

Finally, it is an incredible campaign, and you have helped shape the policy today by giving us your perspectives. What are your next steps? Where do you go from here?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): A brief answer on this one, please.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: The next step would be trying to get it through the Assembly. We will probably face some backlash, but the Assembly should listen to young people. The Assembly should get more people's opinions from hearings like this. If the Assembly does not get this through, it will not affect me, but it will affect other people. I am not trying to speak for women and girls, but I am trying to give my sister's perspective, because she is the only girl in my family. If someone does not allow my sister to wear something that simple, it will be ridiculous.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, Raphael. We will have to draw a line at that stage.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Sorry.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): No, no. The Committee is always up against time.

Mr Burrows: and passionate input, and it is good to see my constituency represented by someone from a Ballymena school. That is doubly welcome.

I fully support a girl's right to wear trousers. To be clear, do you accept that we are talking about the right to wear a standardised pair of trousers that will become a school uniform, in the same way as a boy wears school trousers that are uniform?

Mr Maginn: I am slightly confused about what you mean.

Mr Burrows: We are not pitching that girls can wear any trousers. It is clear that girls can wear trousers as an item of school uniform, and it can be distinguished from general uniform issues and wearing your own clothes.

Mr McConnell: That is completely where we are coming from.

Mr Maginn: The Youth Assembly's view is that it is a standard pair of trousers, and we fully believe that it will not undermine uniformity and the role of uniform in ensuring that all pupils are equal in appearance.

Mr Burrows: You put it better than I did, so well done on that.

My second question is for the girls. We touched on this, but I want your opinion to get it clearly. Do we need to look at PE uniforms and the right to wear shorts or skorts instead of skirts to participate in PE? Is that supported universally or strongly among girls in school?

Ms Owens: As a girl, I feel that wearing tracksuit bottoms or leggings in school can be a lot more comfortable. Shorts and skorts can be restrictive. I was playing GAA; I do not play camogie, but there was a fight for wearing shorts instead of skorts. It was rejected at first, but, with some determination, they got it. The same should go for school uniforms. Pupils should be allowed to wear leggings and tracksuit bottoms if they feel comfortable, especially pupils with religious and modesty requirements and disabilities.

Mr Burrows: Yes. One particular issue is promoting participation in PE, particularly from year 10, when sometimes it goes down. If there was the right to wear tracksuit bottoms, skorts or whatever, instead of a skirt, would there be more willing participation in PE from year 10 onwards?

Ms Simpson: I am in year 10, so I can speak on that. In my school, we are not allowed to wear our skort home. They do not ever really touch on why, but I think it is pretty self-explanatory, as you can imagine. If we were allowed to wear leggings or tracksuit bottoms, a lot more people would want to do it, because people cannot be bothered to get changed back into their school uniform after doing a sport after school.

Mr Burrows: Thank you for your insight. It has been invaluable.

Mr Baker: Thank you for everything that you have just said in your presentation. It was brilliant.

You have not really left me many questions to ask, but I slightly disagree with you about being fully behind the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill as it stands: unfortunately, I am not. I am disappointed with it because, as Pat said, 11 of our Committee amendments were thrown completely in the bin. That is not just the work that we do as a Committee; it is the evidence that we take from people like you and parents, who have covered a lot of what is being discussed today.

The only real question that I have that has not been repeated is around the criteria of the schools right now. You have an understanding of what schools ask for for girls to wear trousers and what the difference would be between some schools, where girls may be bullied, and other schools, where it does not happen not so much. Is it the process that really highlights that difference?

Mr McConnell: My school, Coláiste Feirste, is sat between St Louise's and St Dominic's in Belfast. From my experience and from what I see, as well as us not being a grammar school, we find that, sometimes, our school is looked down on because girls are allowed to wear trousers. Sometimes, they see it as maybe unprofessional or not of the same standard. I would be in favour of having no exceptions. It really creates equality not just across your school but across the entire schooling system.

Really, you should not be discriminated against, not just on whether you wear a skirt or trousers but on what school you come from. If every school was made to follow the same standards, no one would be discriminated against on the basis what school they came from. I feel that they have got something that the skirts play into right now.

Mr Baker: Thank you. Are there different processes for the schools? Are you aware of different processes?

Mr Maginn: Each school will have an individual process. From my school, I know that you have to ask a member of the senior leadership team. The view of the Youth Assembly is that the otherness created for pupils who wear trousers is not necessarily because they are wearing trousers; it is because of the process. It is because it is a limited, difficult process, in that they have to go and request that, while, if it was universally allowed for all pupils, eventually, over time — it would be over time — the discrimination or otherness would slowly decrease.

Ms Owens: We had a meeting on 14 January. I heard from others that among the ways for it to be allowed was with a doctor's note or having to speak with the principal, which they can still overrule, or having to go to a senior member, as James said.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Also, in my school, we have to ask the assistant special educational needs coordinator (SENCO). I remember doing that last year for my sister. I keep mentioning my sister. Last year, we had to speak to the deputy SENCO, who is really nice: Mrs Monaghan. I just wanted to give her a shout-out. [Laughter.]

She is really nice. There was actually something around it. When we originally went there, there was something about Evangeline wearing skirts, and she misinterpreted that as me asking to wear a skirt, which I was not; instead, I was asking about her wearing trousers. The deputy SENCO was fine with my sister wearing trousers, and a lot of girls in my year have followed suit and do not wear skirts. There is virtually no bullying, as I said.

Mr Baker: This is just my interpretation, but I feel that there are some political parties — maybe even the Minister himself — who have a fear of supporting the amendments that we wanted to make because it would lead to boys being able to wear skirts. Whilst that is not the issue we are talking about today, I would just like to hear your view on it. Would you, as young people, have a problem with a boy wanting to wear a skirt?

Mr Maginn: I think it would be the view of the Youth Assembly. As an individual, I am disappointed that a lot of the dialogue about this has taken away from the focus on allowing trousers universally. The Youth Assembly is keen to focus specifically on the issue of trousers universally. It is an easy way for some to escape the dialogue or maybe avoid addressing the issue, but I think the Youth Assembly is disappointed that the dialogue has been diverted.

Mr McConnell: To add to that, we are not campaigning for this to go on a slippery slope-type dynamic or a domino effect. We are campaigning for one specific issue, which is girls being allowed to wear trousers. We have not come here to talk about boys wearing skirts. That has not been debated between us or anyone in the Youth Assembly. We are simply here to talk about girls wearing trousers and why we think that it should be allowed.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Also, I would say —.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Just briefly, please, as we are pushed for time.

Mr Burrows: Chair, I am keen to say one thing.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: Sorry.

Mr Burrows: After you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Go ahead, Raphael, just to briefly finish.

Mr MacMillan-Sharkey: It is less about girls wearing trousers and more about everyone being able to have the choice to wear trousers and it not being trousers for boys and skirts for girls. It should be trousers for everyone because how is it going to affect you?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Jon, a brief comment. We have no time for further questions.

Mr Burrows: I commend the young people for that pragmatism and common sense, because attempting to turn it into an issue about boys being able to wear skirts is what could defeat a pragmatic and sensible solution, which is that everyone can wear trousers. I commend their sensible and pragmatic approach to that.

Mr Brooks: I have just one question, but first, thank you very much for your contributions. You have all spoken excellently.

Danny was pointing at the debate that has been had around whether boys can wear skirts. The reason why that was a point of discussion was that, prior to this Bill, it was on the table, so it was a relevant point of discussion at the time. It is not now. I do not speak for the Minister, but I want to clarify his position, as I understand it, because I am a member of his party.

First of all, we do not oppose this Bill; that has been made clear. Our position is more nuanced, despite what others have tried to make of it, and it is that we have always taken a consistent position of supporting the independence of schools to make their own decisions. I recognise that that will be out of step with some of your views, but there will always be different places where you draw the line about where schools can make decisions.

We see today that schools have different colours in their uniforms and so on. We could have a situation, which some would argue for, where a Minister dictates that all schools should have similar uniforms, do exactly the same things, look exactly the same and have exactly the same ethos. That is not where we want to be, and therefore we defend the independence of schools to decide for themselves. It is a specific issue, and I realise that there are passionate views on it that you have articulated well.

You represent my former school, and I must declare an interest, as my wife used to be on the board of governors. I am concerned to hear that, from what you gather, someone has had to leave school because they felt uncomfortable around wearing trousers. Wherever trousers are worn, that should never be the case. Bullying should never be permitted anyway, but it certainly should not be permitted when it comes to choices that the school has allowed. That is concerning.

I am not sure whether it was Neala or Ellie who talked about the religious participation aspect of it. Are you aware of a situation where someone had a religious concern about wearing a skirt and wanted to wear trousers for religious reasons but was not allowed to do so?

Ms Owens: When we were chatting earlier, someone brought up the issue of being Muslim and wanting to wear tracksuit bottoms when they were doing PE. Everybody else in the class was wearing shorts, which was against their religious beliefs, so they wanted trousers for all to be more inclusive of religions.

Mr Brooks: I take that point. There have always been exemptions, and we are aware of situations in schools when there have been exemptions for people because of specific considerations that do not necessarily apply across the board. I was interested to hear that point. Schools should always be sensitive to that. To be clear, from our point of view, we do not oppose the wearing of trousers in principle.

Ms Simpson: You mentioned schools having choices and the schools' independence, but this issue is more about the pupils' choice. It is not about whether the school wants us to be allowed to wear them; it is whether the pupil feels comfortable and safe in the environment if they want to wear trousers. It is not about what the school thinks or what everyone else thinks. It is their decision on their own.

Mr Brooks: I accept that. In a nuanced way, we are in a slightly different place on that, in that we support the ability of schools to make those decisions. I do not have a problem with girls wearing trousers in principle, but I stop short of what Cara was saying about US schools and self-expression and being allowed to wear whatever you want to school. That is not something that I support. I support a school uniform. Some of us will be in a slightly different place from others in respect of decisions on where we draw that line. I want to articulate my position and, as I understand it, the Minister's position, notwithstanding the fact that he may respond differently to the requests that have been made. I do not know — I do not have an insight into that — but it is very much a case of believing that schools should have the autonomy to make their own decisions and have their own ethos and not be dictated to by a Minister of whatever party.

Ms Owens: I live in a rural area, and there are really only two schools that I can go to. If both those schools decided that they were not going to let girls wear trousers, everyone in my area would be stuck. There would be no other option. I do not have a variety of schools to pick from, so I believe that it should not be the independent choice of the school. If it was an overall right for girls to have the choice, it would make it a lot easier for people in rural communities to express their desire to wear trousers.

Mr McConnell: I second that.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): In the interests of time, this will have to be the final contribution, Dáire.

Mr McConnell: Exemptions create differences, and I am fairly sure that everybody here will agree that, at our age, exemptions create bullying and cause people to be left out and to be seen as different. I support a full allowing of trousers not just because it is something that I see fit but because I do not want to see certain people not being allowed and then exemptions being made that lead to bullying. I am fairly sure that everybody in the Committee will agree that bullying needs to be stopped. It needs to be destroyed in the ethos of schools and the type of diverse community that we are trying to create in these Six Counties. I am fairly sure that everybody will agree with me on that.

Mr Brooks: I hear the points that you have made, and you have been powerful advocates for it.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): The evidence was really clear, from your opening remarks onwards. It is probably the most emphatic and unanimous evidence that we have ever heard at Committee. That has been really helpful in our considerations for the Committee Bill.

I will just highlight that we have received over 3,000 responses to the consultation, so there is clearly huge public interest in the issue. I really hope that there is some scope to get it dealt with through the guidelines, as that is the most efficient use of resources, as far as I can see. It is an easy thing to do.

The Clerk is nudging me to get a photograph. Given that this is the first evidence session for the new Youth Assembly, we are keen to do that.