Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I welcome Adrian, Chris and Pat to the Committee to talk about graduated driving licensing (GDL). We considered the matter last week but, of course, it was announced by the Minister on 'Good Morning Ulster', also last week.

Is the Committee content for this session to be recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I invite the departmental officials to make an opening statement of up to 10 minutes, after which you can expect about 120 questions. That is a joke, gentlemen; you can smile. There probably will be quite a few questions, for obvious reasons. The session will be lengthy as it is, but I encourage you to keep your answers not brief, but terse, if you can. We are in your hands, Chris.

Dr Chris Hughes (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you, Chair. I will keep my remarks as brief as I possibly can. First, thank you, Chair and members, for the opportunity to come to the Committee. The Minister has asked me to say that, due to her diary commitments, she is unable to attend. She was, however, eager for officials to come here today to answer your questions and update you on GDL. The Minister has also said that she is keen to discuss the issue further with you when she attends the Committee in a few weeks. We recognise that we could have informed members better about this matter, and we have taken that lesson on board.

Pat is the senior responsible officer (SRO) for the operational delivery of GDL. He has been involved from the outset, and very few others from that time are still around. I believe that you were here, Cathal.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): He has been here since 1973. [Laughter.]

Mr Boylan: I am still working on it, men, and other things along with it. [Laughter.]

Dr Hughes: Pat has corporate memory on this, which is particularly valuable to us. Adrian will deal with the process for the subordinate legislation. I am over the policy for the wider road safety issues. I deal with the range of issues that are set out in the road safety action plan in general.

I wish to note the deaths that have happened this week, Chair. GDL is about trying to prevent people from dying on the roads. It is simply to ensure that there are fewer deaths. We want to reduce road deaths. Everybody in the room will be conscious of the two deaths that occurred this week. There have been seven deaths so far this year. That is more than there were at this time last year, but what we are doing here is trying to stop deaths on our roads.

This is a life-saving change, which will result in fewer deaths on the roads. It is one of a range of actions that are set out. You will be aware that the graduated driver licensing policy was set out in the Road Traffic (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2016. The process that we are going through now is the implementation of the 2016 Act, but it is one aspect of graduated driver licensing, which can be viewed as a spectrum. I have been paying close attention to the questions that you, Chair and members, have been putting to the Department. There are a lot of ideas for what graduated driver licensing could look like. The detail of the graduated driver licensing that we have here is what is expressed in the 2016 Act. That does not mean that that is the definition of graduated driver licensing; there are other options. A lot of the ideas that members have had could be incorporated into a future iteration of graduated driver licensing.

I promised to keep it short. That is as much as I am going to say. We are happy to answer your questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That was short indeed, Chris. Thank you very much. That is the sort of witness that we like.

I am going to start with something that you said, which was that you, as officials, or the Minister, could have informed members better about the policy. Just for clarity, we were not informed at all. It is not about informing us any better; it is not on a scale. We found out about it on 'Good Morning Ulster'. It is worth noting that. Leading on from that — I said it this morning and last week — the Committee has clearly signalled its intent to support any policies or actions that the Minister brings forward that cut driver deaths in Northern Ireland. That is absolutely the case — who would not?

Most of our issues this morning are not about the policy intent but the process by which it was brought in. That leads me to my first question, which is about where you left off. You have been monitoring the questions for written answer that have been going in. I have submitted quite a few, as other members probably have. You mentioned that the ideas that were being generated in those questions could be fed into the policy.

My first question is this: why was this not brought to the Committee? If it had been, you would have had our ideas, and the Minister could have taken them away and formulated a policy. You said this morning that the stuff that we feed to you is useful, so why did the Minister make the announcement on the BBC without first coming to the Committee to ask, "What ideas do you have?", and perhaps even doing an updated consultation, given that the one that you are relying on is at least eight years old? Why was it done that way?

Dr Hughes: Thank you for the opportunity to clarify that. I specifically said that those ideas would be for a potential future iteration of a policy. The current policy is the one that is set in the 2016 Act — the detail is in the Act — and members' suggestions cannot be implemented in that retrospectively.

The notion of a graduated driving licence has many forms, some wider and some narrower. The Assembly took a view in 2016 and put in legislation exactly what form that would take, and that is what the Minister has moved to implement. To be really clear, I was saying that the Assembly may, in future, take a view that there should be a wider iteration of graduated driving licensing. That is the point at which the ideas would be fed in. This policy has already been decided. It is the stated will of the Assembly and is written into the Act. The way in which the graduated driving licensing is to be implemented was extensively debated and is set out in the Act, which is why it is being implemented. I acknowledged the fact that members brought ideas, but, just to be clear, those cannot be fed into the 2016 Act, which is already an Act of the Assembly.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is useful. Did the Department look just at the Act that was standing there? Again, I make the point that, as you said, the Act was passed in 2016, so it has been 10 years since the Bill was introduced by a colleague of Justin's and brought through the Assembly. Prior to the Minister's announcement, was there engagement with stakeholders about what they would like to see, or does this all rely on stuff from 2016? The world was different in 2016, when we faced different problems, and technology was different.

Two groups are most affected by this: the people who will have to go through the process, and the driving instructors. What engagement did you have with either group?

Mr Pat Delaney (Driver and Vehicle Agency): We had extensive engagement with those and other groups, including sporting organisations, as part of the consultation. We met the driving instructors. The then Minister of the Environment, Alex Attwood, met the Driving Instructors National Association Council (DINAC), which was the umbrella organisation for driving instructors in January, or maybe June, 2012.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Pat, I do not often stop witnesses, but I see where you are going with your answer. By "prior to the Minister's announcement" last Wednesday, I meant, let us say, in the past six months, given that the Minister is freshly in post, Minister O'Dowd having previously held it. In the lead-up to the announcement, what engagement did you have in order to find out the views of driving instructors or of young people or anyone else who will be affected?

Mr Delaney: We regularly meet the umbrella organisation for driving instructors, which is now known as the Northern Ireland Approved Instructor Council (NIAIC). It is a standing item on the agenda of the meetings, which happen twice a year, and we update the organisation on it. We had no engagement with young people, because we were implementing primary legislation that was already in place. There was no opportunity to change what was in the Act; it was simply about implementing it. The delay was caused by factors outside our control. We originally intended to implement the Act on 1 October 2018, but because of other factors, that was impossible. This is our earliest opportunity to implement it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. I will stay on the subject of NIAIC. You mentioned a standing agenda item and that you meet the organisation a couple of times year. If we were to ask for the minutes of the meetings, would we see graduated driving licensing on the agenda? Was NIAIC informed through that process?

Mr Delaney: You might not see it as an agenda item, but my colleagues will have been speaking to NIAIC about it when meeting those representatives. I would have to go back and dig out the agenda and minutes of those meetings.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): What level of confidence do you have that, if you were to go back to those minutes — you said that there was engagement and that you meet NIAIC regularly — we would see GDL mentioned in those minutes?

Mr Delaney: I have 100% confidence that, on 25 January 2025, the item was on the agenda for NIAIC to meet Minister O'Dowd, but NIAIC postponed the meeting because of internal issues in the organisation.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): We have heard from driver licensing that it was not aware. Is that fair? NIAIC said that it was not aware that this was coming in and was surprised. Is that your understanding?

Mr Delaney: NIAIC is aware that GDL is coming in —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Prior to the Minister going on 'Good Morning Ulster'?

Mr Delaney: It would not have been aware of the implementation date of 1 October. We did not make that publicly available until the Minister announced it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine.

Most of the information that we have gleaned has been from the FAQ section on the Department's website, which is certainly useful. It says:

What engagement have you had — again, I am talking about recently, not in 2012 or 2016 — with insurance companies regarding that statement, and do you have an evidence base to suggest that insurance premiums will come down?

Mr Delaney: We met the insurance industry in the run-up to the Bill becoming an Act in 2016 —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Again, insurance has changed quite a bit in 10 years.

Mr Delaney: I just want to set the context.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes, OK.

Mr Delaney: That appears in the Committee for the Environment's report dated 19 March 2015. We have a request from the Association of British Insurers to meet its representatives, and we are meeting them next week to provide them with an update on GDL.

Dr Hughes: Further to that, Chair, the Association of British Insurers has constant contact with the Department and has met the Minister. The insurers are incredibly across all the road safety issues to do with Northern Ireland. They can quote you the exact number of deaths. When they meet you, they know exactly how many people have died on our roads this year, and they know exactly what we are doing on the broader road safety issues.

We have talked to them about graduated driver licensing, and they have said, "You are not going to be able to put a figure on the likely change in insurance premiums because of graduated driver licensing". That is a commercially sensitive issue that each insurer will do through their own loss adjusters or risk assessors, or however that works. They will not share that with us, but they can say that, if you reduce the number of people dying on our roads, premiums will go down. When you reduce the number of collisions, which is what causes the number of people dying to reduce, that will, in time, lead to reduced premiums.

You will perhaps be aware that, in Wales, where the number of collisions has reduced by 20% due to the introduction of 20 mph limits in urban areas, premiums have dropped by, on average, £45 a year. That figure is a direct result of the reduced number of deaths and collisions. It will become evident after the event, but we thoroughly expect that to occur.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I will ask one more question and then go to colleagues. Again, this is from the FAQs. It says:

Can you explain a little bit more about what I just read out?

Mr Delaney: Yes. During the consultation process, back in 2012, 2014 and 2015, the vast majority of young people who were consulted preferred to have a digital platform as opposed to a large, thick book to do their programme of training from. We accepted that as part of the consultation that we carried out at that time, which was completed in January 2018. That platform is now being developed with our IT strategic partner. That will be on an app with a logbook and will be available on a browser. Each of the 14 required modules and the one optional module will be on the browser, and it is the same for motorcyclists. The training does not have to be done sequentially. It can be done in any order and will depend on how the driver is progressing with their driving instructor or supervising driver. The app provides us with the opportunity to include animation and video clips to help the learner understand what they need to learn as part of the process of learning to drive safely before they take their test.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Is the programme of training and completion of the logbook assessed in some way?

Mr Delaney: It is assessed by the driving instructor, and it is developed in line with the goals for driver education (GDE) matrix, which is an internationally recognised matrix for learning to drive. The bottom left-hand corner of that matrix is, essentially, the technical competence of having to get a vehicle from A to B, and the top right-hand corner looks at human factors such as your feelings, behaviours, attitude towards driving, what is affecting you on the day, how you recognise those factors, how they might influence your driving and how that could, potentially, result in a collision that could result in a death or serious injury.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you, Pat. I have a battery of questions, but I will not dominate the Committee.

Mr Dunne: Thank you, gentlemen. It is good to see you again. You have been here on a number of issues over the years.

I welcome any initiative that will ultimately improve road safety. You have highlighted some of the stark reasoning around the initiative. I have a couple of questions. It is fair to say that we have seen significant delays in driver and vehicle testing in the not-too-distant past. Given the scale of these changes, how confident are you that you and your Department will have the resources to manage the GDL process, which is an extensive and significant change from what we are used to?

Mr Delaney: Totally confident.

Mr Dunne: As I said, there were those major issues in the not-too-distant past around even getting a driving test.

Mr Delaney: Currently, waiting times for driving tests are sitting at 31·64 days. That varies across each of the centres, and it is much shorter in some centres,.

Mr Dunne: Yes, but you will appreciate that, in the past few years, you have been in front of the Committee to discuss such delay.

Mr Delaney: We set out our plan on how we were going to address it, and we have addressed it. If you look at the statistics from the past year, you will see that we are conducting more driving tests than we conducted in the past. In some months, we are hitting record levels of driver testing, because of the resources that we have in place.

Mr Dunne: I welcome that, and constituents have raised that with me. Two years ago, it was certainly a major issue. I am not talking about 2012 or 2016. These are real issues. It is a concern that I have, but I appreciate your confidence in that —.

Mr Delaney: You are comparing apples and pears.

Mr Dunne: No, it has been —.

Mr Delaney: We were coming out of a pandemic when we had serious difficulties with waiting times. It was not just us: that was the situation across the whole of Europe. I can say that with authority, because I am the president of the International Commission for Driver Testing (CIECA), so I know what other competent authorities were experiencing across the European Union. We put in place overtime, increased resources and opened on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays, when testing was not normally available, to gradually bring down the waiting times for driver testing, and we are continuing to do that. In fact, we are in the process of going out for another driving examiner competition to recruit more driving examiners.

Mr Dunne: Are you confident about getting this in place within eight months, for an October start date?

Mr Delaney: We are confident that we will have the app, the website and all of the materials in place for 1 October. There is an issue around the subordinate legislation that has to go through. If that goes through, yes, we will have it in place.

Mr Dunne: Another issue around resource is police resourcing. I imagine that you have engaged extensively with the police in the process, historically and, I would like to think, more recently. What level of engagement have you had with the police about resourcing these changes, if they are rolled out?

Mr Delaney: It is a matter for the police to determine their resourcing levels. We met the police, as we do regularly. We met the PSNI roads division, last Tuesday morning, and explained that the GDL was being introduced, and the impact of it. I spoke to senior officers in roads policing, and they warmly welcomed it — in fact, Chief Superintendent Sam Donaldson was on 'Evening Extra', that evening, warmly welcoming the introduction.

Mr Dunne: I know he was.

OK. I turn to the detail around the GDL itself. The cost of the 14 modules has been flagged up by constituents and residents right across Northern Ireland. There are challenges on the cost, as it is, to get the driving licence, and that issue has been raised with me. What assurance do you give people that the cost will remain as affordable as possible, given the increase in time, the increase in modules for some drivers who would not take six months ordinarily to pass the test as it is today. Also, will you touch on why it will be a six-month learning period? I presume that you have looked at best practice around the world, so I am keen to establish how the six-month figure was arrived at.

Mr Delaney: There is a lot in there, so I will just unpack it one item at a time. The proposed cost for the programme of training is £17 for the 14 mandatory modules and the one optional module. That roughly works out at approximately £1·21 per module, or the price of a litre of milk. That will be written into statute, and it will have to be changed by statute, at some point, when we do a fees review.

As to best practice, if you go back to the Committee for the Environment report of 19 March 2015, you will find that it was the Committee that decided to set the six-month mandatory minimum learning period. Officials proposed a 12-month mandatory minimum learning period, which is the standard in other jurisdictions where GDL has been introduced. However, you find from the report that the Committee was concerned that a 12-month mandatory minimum learning period would have put an unnecessary burden on and disadvantaged the rural community. Therefore, the Committee moved that to a six-month mandatory minimum learning period. That was introduced in law.

Mr Dunne: My next point is about the restrictions from 11.00 pm to 6.00 am. That has caused some concern as well, particularly for younger people working in the hospitality sector, for example, on late-night shifts who may be bringing colleagues home and so on. What is the evidence base for that? I presume that that is the time when young drivers are most at risk and when there are most accidents. Is there any more detail on how those times were arrived at?

Mr Delaney: The Assembly decided that it was from 11.00 pm to 6.00 am. Officials had proposed 10.00 pm to 6.00 am, because that is best practice elsewhere, but we arrived at 11.00 pm to 6.00 am. There is extensive research on night-time passenger restrictions, principally produced by the Transport Research Laboratory in London — www.trl.co.uk — and if you put "graduated driver licensing" into the search engine, it will produce a list of the reports that it has done on graduated driver licensing. In all the jurisdictions that it has looked at, night-time restrictions are a key component of GDL. The reports also indicate that there is little or no impact on rural communities when this is implemented because of the mitigating measures that are put in place to manage that.

Mr Dunne: I have a final point, Chair, if I may. The removal of the 45 mph limit has been generally welcomed. That restriction can be dangerous, particularly on motorways, where a car is driving at 40 mph or 45 mph.

I turn to the issue of the R-plates for two years. Will it have a knock-on impact on insurance costs? Everyone around this table knows the cost of insurance. One constituent was quoted £4,000 for a young driver for a modest car for one year, which, quite frankly, prices a lot of people out of being able to afford a vehicle. Will the changes have any impact, negative or positive, on insurance costs?

Mr Delaney: That is a matter for the insurance industry. I am not in a position to answer —.

Mr Dunne: You folks are driving forward these significant changes, which are going to impact on all our constituents' lives. Therefore, you need to give a bit more detail on that.

Mr Delaney: Stephen, the changes are going to impact their lives because they are going to save their lives. That is the aim of this. The first six months of the post-test restriction is to identify to the police and others that this driver is subject to night-time restrictions. The next 18 months is so that the novice driver gains experience in driving in lower-risk environments over time, which gives them experience. If you look at the statistics of collisions and the numbers of people killed or seriously injured, drivers who have been qualified for 13 months to 18 months account for 89% of the increase in collisions against a baseline. That statistic was quoted last week. That is just after they have come out of period in which they have to display R-plates.

We are removing the 45 mph speed limit, because we would like to test and train people up to posted speeds. The fifteenth module, which is the motorway driving module, is optional, because not everybody in Northern Ireland has easy access to a motorway. We did not make that component mandatory.

Mr Dunne: OK. Thanks, gentlemen.

Mr Harvey: Morning, gentlemen. Will your licensing department require more staff to implement GDL, or will you be able to use what you have and move people around?

Mr Delaney: We will use the staff that we have to manage GDL.

Mr Harvey: Will you need to move staff around, or does the agency have enough to cope?

Mr Delaney: We have enough in the agency to resource graduated driver licensing.

Mr Harvey: Very good. What is it forecast to cost the Department, say yearly?

Mr Delaney: The initial set-up cost is £2 million. Part of that is in the current financial year, and the remainder will be in the next financial year. That is capital, which will be used to create the app, the website and the technical arrangements that will support GDL. We will then have running costs. The £17 fees for the programme of training will be used to resource the running costs of the system and the team that will manage GDL.

Mr Harvey: Will the £17 fees cover pretty much all of that once the scheme is up and running?

Mr Delaney: Yes. We are working on the assumption that we will have approximately 35,000 category B provisional driving licences each year. Everyone who gets a provisional driving licence will have to pay £17 to get the programme of training. From a simple multiplication of those fees, we get the resource.

Mr Harvey: Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you for coming in today, guys; I appreciate it. I was not elected in 2016, so I am keen to hear a bit about that process. Pat, you said that GDL was introduced in 2016 via the Act. There was an aspiration to have made progress on it on 1 October 2018, and that did not happen. Will you talk us through what trying to enact the Act looked like from 2016 until last week's announcement? A question that I get from constituents is, "It's taken 10 years to get this far. What happened in that decade?". Were groups set up? Were there meetings? Will you talk us through that?

Mr Delaney: I will need to delegate as I answer that question.

Mr McReynolds: Everybody is welcome to take it.

Mr Delaney: We were ready to launch GDL on 1 October 2018. The programme team was ready for the launch to be on that date and there was a project plan in place. We were making good progress until the Assembly collapsed in January 2017. The Assembly was not restored until January 2020. The pandemic arrived in March 2020. As I just said to Mr Dunne, in the early part of 2022, when we started to emerge from the pandemic, the agency faced significant challenges in vehicle testing and driver testing. All our resource was focused on trying to recover from the pandemic. It has really only been in the past year that we have been able to refocus our minds on GDL, and, basically, start the process of taking GDL out of abeyance and back into active management and implementation.

Mr McReynolds: It sounds like, almost clunkily in some respects, you have been treading water on the proposals since 2016. External variables kicked in with the collapse of the Assembly and COVID.

Mr Delaney: There were external variables, but the Bill had received Royal Assent and been made law, so nothing could be done about that — it was always going to be implemented. If the factors that I just mentioned had not happened, we would have been through the SL1s and the statutory rules (SRs). The normal procedure would have been done and dusted by October 2018, and GDL would have been in place by then. Unfortunately, that did not happen

Mr McReynolds: I, for my sins, sit on the Policing Board, so I engage with the police. Also, as chair of the all-party group on road safety, I engage with Sam Donaldson quite a lot. Was there engagement with the police in advance of the announcement? A lot of MLAs were annoyed by the suddenness of it. Had you been in consultation with the police to let them know that it was coming, or was there just a phone call that day with the PSNI?

Mr Delaney: The police were aware that we were working on GDL, because we have regular meetings with roads policing. However, they were not aware that it would be introduced on 1 October until the meeting last Tuesday, at which I provided them with a briefing.

Dr Hughes: The Department chairs a road safety forum, which has on it all the blue-light services as well as the other Departments that contribute to road safety. As a member of that forum, the police were aware of the Minister's intention to introduce graduated driver licensing as soon as possible. That was in the public domain, so it would not have come as a surprise to the police.

Mr McReynolds: What will the subordinate legislation look like for the public? That is one of the queries that I have been getting. It will come in on 1 October, but it has taken us a long time to get here. There are none of those external variables at the minute. Will you talk us through the subordinate legislation?

Mr Delaney: It is with pleasure that I pass that to my colleagues. [Laughter.]

Mr Adrian Borland (Department for Infrastructure): GDL is possibly a wee bit unusual. As Chris said, the majority of the measures are in the Act, so the subordinate legislation that is needed will support the Act. It will bring in the bits around the edges that need to be there. They are not, in and of themselves, huge pieces of legislation. It is all about the Act in this case. That is not always the case; often, Acts have frameworks that require a lot of subordinate legislation.

The subordinate legislation is currently with the Minister for clearance. Once it is cleared, SL1s will come to the Committee with the drafts. There will be a commencement order. There is no Assembly procedure for the commencement order, but it is a key element, because that is the one that will commence all of the provisions that are already in the Act. There will be a driving licence amendment regulation, which will be subject to negative resolution procedure. There will be a motorways SR, which will also be subject to negative resolution procedure. In the shorter term, you will be most interested in the special restrictions SR, which is the one that will introduce the new plates. That will be subject to draft affirmative resolution procedure.

Once the Committee has finished its scrutiny of the subordinate legislation, which should be with you shortly, we will move to lay a draft of the draft affirmative SR in the Assembly. That will require a debate — there will be an opportunity for GDL to be debated in the Assembly, because the purpose of bringing in the SR is to facilitate GDL. The Assembly will debate and, hopefully, affirm that SR. Before that debate, the Committee will have considered the SR, and the Examiner of Statutory Rules will have looked at it and given you a report. Once it is affirmed in the Assembly, we will move to make the other pieces of legislation and put those in place. The hope is that the legislation will be in place before the summer recess, depending, obviously, on the Committee's scrutiny. At that point, there will be certainty about the 1 October implementation date.

Mr McReynolds: I am quite reassured by that. We have about eight months until 1 October, so I look forward to this coming back before the Committee. Thank you; cheers.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): At one point, Pat or Chris said:

They are both shaking their heads at me, but that is what I wrote down.

Mr Borland: Sorry, Chair. I think the "issue" is that it has to be scrutinised.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It needs scrutiny.

Mr Borland: It has to be scrutinised by the Committee before there is any certainty about the October date: that was maybe the point.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is fine.

Mr McMurray: Chair, you did it once before with the Downpatrick and County Down Railway museum, and you have taken my question again.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): You are joking. I am so sorry.

Mr McMurray: You jumped in there.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It is worrying for both of us if we are thinking similarly, Andrew. It will do neither of us any good in the long run. Go ahead. Apologies.

Mr McMurray: I had made a note of that same quote:

However, that seems to be —.

Mr Delaney: It is all about timing.

Mr McMurray: It is about timing — perfect — like comedy.

Dr Hughes, you mentioned the tragedies, one of which happened in my constituency. As the father of a son, it is very difficult for me to process what happened.

I asked the Minister about this in the Chamber, but I want to go back to it: what is the empirical evidence on graduated driver licensing and how it will effect a reduction in the number of deaths?

Mr Delaney: The empirical evidence is extensive. My memory is good, but I need to read this to provide an answer. I have already mentioned the Transport Research Laboratory, which does a great deal of work on GDL. Dr Shaun Helman and Dr Neale Kinnear from the laboratory worked on a project with us. They rely on research papers from Mayhew, Williams and Robertson in 2016; the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) in 2012; Vaa, Høye and Almqvist in 2015; and Senserrick and Williams in 2015. Those are all extensive research papers that have been done on GDL, how it has operated in other jurisdictions and the benefits of its introduction, including how it has improved the statistics on people — particularly young, novice drivers — who are killed or seriously injured on the roads.

Mr McMurray: I will come back to that. I read through some of it. Logbooks have been mentioned. I am curious as to how those will work. Logbooks are a good way in which to demonstrate learning, especially in practical matters such as driving, but I am curious about how they will actually be used. Will the logbook be used as a tiebreaker of sorts or just a reference for the instructor? Will it be purely a learning tool for the driver? I am curious about the function and role of the logbook. It is a good idea, but I am curious about the practicalities.

Mr Delaney: It is in legislation that the logbook has to be completed. The programme of training and the logbook have to be completed before a practical driving test can be undertaken. Because we have a digital solution, when a driver becomes entitled to drive a category B car, which is generally at the age of 17, and they purchase the programme of training and access to the logbook, we can verify them on the system. We already know their identity, because we have given them their provisional driving licence. Their approved driving instructor is already verified by us as well, through both the ordinary driving licence that he or she holds and the approved driving instructor's licence that he or she holds, because we regulate that industry. Therefore, we know who the instructor is and who the new driver is. We also know who the supervising driver is; it could be a parent or guardian. When a supervising driver logs on to a user's account, we have a record of who they are.

Remember: the programme of training, in itself, is a structured approach to what driving instructors normally do, but we are adding into that aspects of learning to drive that we cannot normally test but which they will now have to train in. That is, largely, behaviours, attitudes and feelings; learning the technical components of driving so as to be technically competent; learning how to drive in different conditions, such as at night-time and in rain or other poor weather; and, instead of learning routes, learning how to drive on roads that incorporate known causation factors in road traffic collisions. Each module in the programme of training will be completed. There is a red, amber and green component to it, whereby the approved driving instructor (ADI) will assess whether the person needs more learning, is progressing with the learning or has completed the learning. The ADI will sign off the logbook, and that will come back into our system. When all 14 components of the logbook are completed, that individual's programme of training will be recognised as completed. That information will go to our booking system, and a flag will be put on that person's driving licence. Therefore, when they apply to do their driving test, we will be able to reference back digitally and see that they have completed their programme of training and that their logbook has been verified. Then, the learner will be able to book and sit their driving test in the normal way.

Mr McMurray: The learner driver fills out the logbook under the supervision of a parent, guardian or A N Other, and the driving instructor says —.

Mr Delaney: The learner driver completes the programme of training. It is conducted with the ADI. Generally speaking, it is ADIs who have the skills and knowledge to do it properly. However, a supervising driver can do it as well; we have not limited it to just a driving instructor. The learning driver goes through that structured approach, it is verified and then they can do the test.

Mr McMurray: Presumably, because it is in legislation, it is bona fide.

Mr Delaney: Yes.

Mr McMurray: You mentioned that you are the president of the International Commission for Driver Testing. You also mentioned the introduction of 20 mph speed limits in Wales. Which has had the bigger impact in reducing collisions: the 20 mph limit or GDL? If you compare it to places that have both, or that have one or the other, which do you see as having had the bigger impact? We have always been told that speed is the issue, so I am curious.

Dr Hughes: Ninety-five per cent of collisions are due to driver/road user behaviour. Graduated driver licensing addresses that. It will upskill drivers to be better able to take their vehicle on to the road safely. Given the amount of kinetic energy that is involved in a collision and the fact that the human body can only withstand so many forces, the higher the speed of a collision, the more likely it is that there will be serious injury or a fatality. Therefore, both have an impact. Graduated driver licensing has been around for decades — since the 1980s. Wales does not have the equivalent of graduated driver licensing; it only has the reduced speed limit in urban areas. That was brought in in Wales two years ago, and it has already reduced collisions by about 22%. That is a stand-alone thing, but all the measures contribute. The speed limit reduction in Wales has resulted in a reduction in collisions of more than 20% and an 18% reduction in fatalities — perhaps, it is the other way round, but there has been a reduction of about 20% in both. That is the impact of the speed limit reduction in isolation. Pat has covered graduated driver licensing. I hope that that covers your question.

Mr Delaney: Graduated driver licensing has been about since 1966. New South Wales was the first to introduce it, and it is now in operation across Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.

One of the other main causation factors for collisions is driver distraction. Module 13 of the programme of training is focused entirely on driver distraction and in-car technology. It takes the learner through what they must stay focused on; what they must avoid; how to be smart with devices; managing distractions with passengers in the vehicle; the use of collision avoidance systems; collision mitigation systems and how they can be activated; driver information systems; how to safely use satnav systems; and a number of other factors. It would take me too long to go through the complete module and the questions that are associated with it. When you combine those, you get structured learning. The new learner will understand what is involved in driver distraction, but, more importantly, the impact of driver distraction. The assessment at the end, which comes in the form of quiz questions, informs the ADI or supervising examiner whether the person has achieved the level that they need to for that module.

We did it in 2014. I sent one of my colleagues across to a European project, the CIECA road user education work group, which was essentially to do with GDL. She came back with the information and knowledge that we needed. We then put together the programme of training. I commissioned Dr Yan Vissers, an eminent traffic psychologist from Royal Haskoning in the Netherlands who is involved in driver training and testing, to assess that programme of training and whether it met the standard of GDL programmes of training in other jurisdictions. For the most part, he agreed with the training, but he highlighted some areas for improvement. We made the improvements, and he reviewed it again. The programme of training has been developed by us, but it has also been peer-assessed, and it is considered to be a valid programme of training for GDL.

Mr McMurray: You mentioned the 12-month versus six-month mandatory wait and said that, at the time, the Assembly's view was that it should be six months. What is your assessment? Would you prefer to have a 12-month mandatory wait than a six-month one?

Mr Delaney: If you wish to review the Committee's view, you will find it in paragraph 22 on page 3 of the report. I am a civil servant, so I am impartial. We will wait until we have the evidence from the current system. At that point, we could consider strengthening the GDL provisions in order to save even more lives.

Mr McMurray: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Picking up on Andrew's point: are there 14 modules, Pat?

Mr Delaney: There are 14 mandatory modules.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes, and that is a programme of training. At the end of the training, a logbook — perhaps a digital logbook — is signed off.

Mr Delaney: It is a digital logbook that is signed off as you go along, rather than at the end. The final sign-off comes back to our system to say that the training is complete.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): The digital logbook can be signed off by a driving instructor or by a parent or guardian.

Mr Delaney: Yes. It can be signed off by a supervising driver.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes. Fine.

Mr Boylan: Thank you very much for your presentation and responses. Obviously, our thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones on the roads, particularly this year and in the tragedy this week.

Pat, I was thinking back to when the Committee went through this originally. I have listened to members' questions today; the questions at that time were no different.

Mr Delaney: They are very similar.

Mr Boylan: The six- and 12-month question is interesting. Those of us who have done interviews and witnessed the situation after young people have been killed on the roads know that it is horrific. That was the premise for all of this in the first place. I welcome it. We were given insight into the subordinate legislation, and the Committee will run through that. We will need to engage with our partners to make them aware of this. It has been headline news for a few days, but everybody associated will need to be engaged with. What is your plan to roll it all out? First, there is the subordinate legislation that you mentioned. Pat, how will we engage with all our partners and get the message out that, "This is the way we're going"? What are your plans for that?

Mr Delaney: The first meeting with the Driving Instructors Association (DIA) will be on 12 February. We will have meetings with that association on the first Thursday of every month until 3 September, when we will have two meetings: one on 3 September and another on 24 September. We also intend to hold four workshops in Belfast, Craigavon, Omagh and Derry. That will be the engagement with driving instructors. On wider communication, we will work with the Department and an external advertising company to develop a bespoke campaign that focuses on the key messages on GDL. That will give the broad picture and signpost people to other information sources. We will use institutional information initiatives: nidirect, a contact centre, social media and the departmental website. We will use our press office to work with stakeholders to amplify it so that the message about GDL goes out as widely as possible. Over the next eight months, my focus, as the SRO in the project, will be on winning people's hearts and minds on GDL, and to make sure that everyone knows that it is coming in and what the issues are.

We will have wider stakeholder engagement. I mentioned the driving instructors, because they are the key stakeholders, but we are also developing a newsletter for MLAs that will set out the key messages. MLAs can leave that newsletter in their constituency office so that questions that come in from their constituents can be answered in their office as opposed to by other means. We are engaging with our other road safety partners to amplify the messages through their outreach platforms, including those where young people meet. Broadly speaking, that is the communications plan for the next eight months.

Mr Boylan: Buy-in is important. The Chair will be happy that he is getting the newsletter; I would have changed the title, but he will be happy.

Over the years, companies have offered services to monitor young drivers' behaviour, insurance and all of that. It is a difficult one for us, and we have had insurers at Committee in the past. As Stephen mentioned, it is about affordability and everything else. We will have to try to have a conversation about it. That is outside the legislation; it is a broader discussion. I welcome the efforts to get buy-in. Collectively, we have a responsibility to do all that, and that should form part of the conversation.

Mr Delaney: We will be meeting the Association of British Insurers next week to explain what GDL is, what the measures are and how we will introduce them. It will be up to the association to decide whether or not GDL will have an impact on insurance policies. This afternoon, I will meet GB police and crime commissioners who are interested in understanding GDL a bit better. The message is out there, and people are interested in it. They want to hear about GDL, and we will do our best to promote it.

Mr Boylan: Thanks.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): To pick up on Cathal's "newsletter" jibe at me —

Mr Boylan: He mentioned it, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): — I always enjoy a newsletter.

Gentlemen, on a comms issue and following up on what Cathal said, I will read out a list of stakeholders, and you can tell me whether any of them knew about this before last Tuesday morning: the PSNI, driving instructors — wait until I have finished — this Committee, the Assembly, the road safety partnership and insurance companies. Prior to last Tuesday morning, did you engage directly with any of those to let them know that this was coming?

Dr Hughes: I did not get a chance to write those down, because I was listening.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): The PSNI, driving instructors, this Committee, the Assembly, the road safety partnership and insurance companies.

Dr Hughes: I know that there was a question for urgent oral answer in the Assembly on the issue. The Minister dealt with it and said that it was getting into the political, so I am conscious of the background.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): There is nothing political about it: I am just wondering whether there was any engagement on it before last Tuesday.

Dr Hughes: The Minister had said that she intended to introduce GDL as soon as possible. That was a matter of public information, so, all of the people whom you listed would have been aware of that. On the degree to which each individual —. I am conscious of potentially entering political territory; certainly, the Minister, when she was in the Assembly, said that she thought that it was political. However, yes, it was a matter of public statement by the Minister that she intended to bring in graduated driver licensing as soon as possible.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Unless I am mistaken, apart from in response to Assembly questions, which are public information, the only reference that the Minister has ever made to her intention — I cannot remember the exact phrase, but it is in Hansard — was in a response to Peter in June, which was before I was on this Committee. That is not my question. My question is this: before last Tuesday morning, had you any direct engagement regarding GDL with the PSNI, driving instructors — NIAIC — this Committee, the Assembly, the road safety partnership or insurance companies?

Dr Hughes: The PSNI sits on the road safety forum. The PSNI would certainly have been aware, as would driving instructors —.

Mr Delaney: Driving instructors would not have been aware of 1 October.

Dr Hughes: Not of the date. We are not talking about the date. We are talking about the concept of graduated driver licensing.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): We are not talking about the date. I am trying to get to the bottom of who, on the list that I read out you, knew that this was coming before Tuesday morning.

Dr Hughes: The PSNI would have known, as would driving instructors, because they were involved in the development of the legislation. The Minister mentioned —.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): No, no; I am conscious that the legislation was 10 years ago. I will make it more specific: who on that list did you have conversations with, that you can evidence, over the past six months, that the Minister was going to do this?

Dr Hughes: The Committee meeting was reported by Hansard. We have covered the PSNI. The driving instructors —.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): They were aware?

Dr Hughes: They were aware that we were bringing in graduated driver licensing — absolutely, and they were very supportive of it. Completely, yes. Who else had you there?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Driving instructors?

Mr Delaney: A driving —? The chair of NIAIC would have been aware, because our press office asked us to contact NIAIC so that a representative could be interviewed by the BBC as part of its piece.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): When would that have happened, roughly? A week before? A couple of days before?

Mr Delaney: The Friday before.

Dr Hughes: NIAIC would not have known the date.

Mr Delaney: Not at that stage. It was so that its representative could be interviewed for the piece.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK, we know about the Committee and the Assembly. What about the road safety partnership? It involves Infrastructure, DOJ, the PSNI and the Courts and Tribunals Service.

Dr Hughes: Yes. A member of my team in the Department sits on the road safety partnership, which looks specifically at the location of speeding devices. Sam Donaldson sits on the partnership and would have been aware of that. I am not sure whether that has ever come up, because I do not normally attend. That would not have a direct impact on the remit of the road safety partnership, so I am not sure whether it was ever covered with it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK, that is fine. Insurance companies?

Dr Hughes: The insurance companies had met the Minister and were aware of graduated driver licensing in general. I do not know whether that happened in the previous six months, but they know about and are very supportive of graduated driver licensing. They are aware of any road safety initiatives that we are bringing into Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you very much.

Mr McHugh: Tá fáilte romhaibh uilig anseo inniu.

I have been really impressed by your answers so far to questions from MLAs on many of the aspects that have been covered in this discussion. I am a wee bit disappointed that the Chair is putting such an emphasis on when and where announcements were made or when other people were involved in them, in that it distracts from what is a really good news story in every respect, particularly for the safety of all road users.

My colleague Cathal stole my thunder. I was going to ask a question about informing the general public.

Mr Boylan: No apology.

Mr McHugh: Since the time of the announcement and the discussion in Parliament, there has been a lot of what I would call "fake news" or rumours about graduated driving licensing. However, you have already answered that question.

In your presentation, you mentioned the rural dimension and the fact that some rural areas do not have access to motorways and the likes. Are there other elements that have to be considered, in particular, for those who live in rural areas? When young people get their licence, they might have various tasks to do that living in a rural area might inhibit.

Mr Delaney: The benefit, Maolíosa, for the rural community far outweighs that in the urban situation. In recent years, the number of, in particular, young people who have been involved in collisions that have resulted in someone dying or being seriously injured has been three times higher on rural roads than on urban roads. The programme of training is set generically for all new drivers so that they all get the experience that they need. However, in a rural setting, we will also be able to test and driving instructors will be able to instruct up to the posted speed. The posted speed for national roads is up to 60 mph. That is a limit, not a target, and it is only if the conditions are favourable that you would drive at that speed or that we would test to that. The factors that are involved in the programme of training address the urban and the rural environments. Whether you are based in a city or a rural environment, the programme of training will be suitable for everyone.

Mr McHugh: That is good to know. On the comment that you made about speed, that is exactly one of our major problems with road safety. In particular, in rural areas, people make an assumption that, when they are on a road, it is all 60 mph when, in fact, there should be a much more reduced limit. In fact, that is a policy that has already been adopted in the Republic of Ireland, where there are restrictions on rural roads and so on. In addition, they are now considering implementing a limit of 30 kph, which is roughly 20 mph, in Dublin city. I look forward to the day that we move in that direction in the North. I welcome the work that you, as officials, have done to date in bringing to the fore the graduated driving licence.

Mr McNulty: Thank you, folks. First, my heart goes out to all the families who have lost loved ones on our roads and for whom this legislation, because it has been stalled and delayed, might be coming too late. I concur with Maolíosa that any legislation that is enacted that helps to save lives has to be welcomed and warmly supported. I give the Minister a hard time on multiple fronts, but I congratulate and applaud the Minister for taking up the reins on this stalled and delayed legislation. It is very welcome, and it will, hopefully, help to save lives. Further supporting what Maolíosa said, it is very reassuring to know that officials are so over the detail and are so sure-footed, despite tough questioning from the Committee.

Insurance prices are crippling for young people. That has been mentioned a number of times already, and you said that you will be meeting the Association of British Insurers. Will you be consulting with the Government Actuary's Department on the personal injury discount rate, as set by the Government Actuary, which probably tilts the price of insurance higher here than elsewhere on these islands? Will that be impacted on by this legislation?

Dr Hughes: I have not prepared in detail for a question of that specificity as it would not impact directly on graduated driver licensing. There is an insurance task force, which is led on behalf of the Executive by the Minister of Finance. Our Minister sits on that. It is looking at a wide range of insurance issues. I am sorry; I do not have all that detail. That is an issue that is being dealt with as a stand-alone issue. I do not have any specific detail on that. We know from talking to insurers that they tend to look at the number of collisions. I am sorry that I do not have more detail on that.

Mr McNulty: Young people often do not know what is good for them, and a lot of them will be saying, "Damn this legislation. I can't get my R-plates off". However, if there is a win in it for them and they know that insurance is way reduced because of this legislation, surely that is a huge selling point for them.

Dr Hughes: The evidence is from Wales, where, not through that but just by reducing collisions, insurance premiums dropped. That was done by a different mechanism, which was reducing speed. The number of collisions went down, and insurance premiums went down.

Mr McNulty: OK. You mentioned the consultation that was conducted in advance of the 2016 legislation. To what degree is that now outdated or potentially obsolete, given the changes in technology, driver behaviour, cars and the nature of our roads? Is there any obsolescence as a consequence of the time delay?

Mr Delaney: We reviewed the consultation and screened the responses again and found that there was no requirement to do a further consultation, regardless of some of those things that you have just mentioned. The process had been the same.

Dr Hughes: We are a decade on from the Act, but it is an Act, so it is an expression of the will of the Assembly, which is precisely written, and therefore that is what we enact. The consultation led up to that.

As to your point about the world changing, the Minister has published other road safety initiatives in the road safety action plan that are exactly about trying to bring things more up to date. There is work on mobile phones. The Minister has given a commitment to work on drink-driving. There is the speeding review, which picks up Maolíosa's point about looking at the speed limits on rural roads and, in general, looking at 20 mph. A consultation will be launched on drug-driving. Those are all right-now issues, and they address the fact that the world has moved on. The PSNI reports that drug-driving is as, if not more, prevalent than drink-driving. We are going to do something about all those issues.

Those broader road safety issues fall within my remit, and I hope, in due course, to see the Committee again about them. They are also being progressed this year. The 2016 Act is what it is, because it is a statement of the will of the Assembly, which we are implementing, while doing lots of other things to try, basically, to save every life that we can.

Mr Delaney: I will just clarify my answer. When I referred to the consultation, it was for the second consultation that was done on how the programme of training would be implemented and the consultation on the changes to the practical driving test, which were subsequent to the Act being passed. That was the second consultation on the outworkings, which then informed the work that Adrian has done on the SL1s.

Mr McNulty: Thank you. Good luck with saving lives, folks. Well done.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you, Justin. John, you are coming in virtually. The floor is yours, brother.

Mr Stewart: Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your presentation. I apologise for not being there in person. I echo the comments made by Committee members about our thoughts going out to the loved ones of everyone who has lost their life on our roads this year and before. Everything that we can do should be done, and, to that end, I welcome GDL.

Apologies if I ask about something that has been asked before. I missed the first few sets of questions: I did not get logged on in time.

I will follow on from the Chair's point. It is not a political point; it is more just around that engagement piece, gents, on the timing of the announcement and the lack of engagement with the sectors prior to that. I am not getting personal around not being given a heads-up, because, obviously, we knew that the legislation had been passed. However, do you think that it might have been more beneficial to bring people along and raise awareness among the sector, particularly the driving instructors, so that they had a heads-up on the time frame of October? Would it have been better to have got them on board so that they were aware of what needed to be done, or are you content that the time frame of between now and October is enough time to do everything that they need to do?

Mr Delaney: I will start, Mr Stewart. The time frame that we have is sufficient for us to do what we need to. I have set out the programme of engagement with the driving instructor stakeholder group from now until October, when the measures will be introduced. We are confident that that engagement will continue.

I have a team that works exclusively with driving instructors in the DVA, and we are in regular contact with them on a number of matters. This will be another matter that they will be able to contact us on. We are trying to do something more structured. However, we need to be flexible with that stakeholder group, given that instructors are very often owner-operators and their time is quite precious. We will try to work with them and be as flexible as we possibly can be with them so that they have all the information that they need in preparation for the introduction of GDL on 1 October.

Mr Stewart: To that end — again, apologies if it has been covered — can you outline what it is that you expect driving instructors to undertake in terms of the additional training and any potential costs from that? Do you anticipate any costs for it?

Mr Delaney: We do not anticipate any additional costs to the current cost of lessons. The programme of training will change the way in which they do things from unstructured to structured.

It will also help the driving instructor in that, when the candidate completes the training modules, the instructor will be more confident in the candidate's capability and ability to do the driving test, potentially with a better outcome.

Mr Stewart: OK. It sounds to me as though more lessons will be required over a prolonged period with a driving instructor for an individual who is learning to drive. That is correct, is it not?

Mr Delaney: People learn at different speeds. We want to move away from someone being technically competent to drive a car from A to B to that person being able to drive a car safely from A to B and understanding the other human factors that are in operation in the environment around them so that they can react better when presented with a situation that may result in a collision, a death or a serious injury.

Dr Hughes: I will pick that up. I think that you were alluding to whether all that has to be done through an approved driving instructor. It can be done with a supervising driver as well. You are not obliged to use an ADI.

Mr Stewart: OK, so you and the sector are not concerned at this stage that there might be pressure on the sector's capacity to provide the necessary lessons and that maybe leading to additional costs for people who are learning to drive. Is there no worry at this stage that there is not enough bandwidth in the sector to cope with this?

Mr Delaney: We are confident that the sector is resourced to absorb GDL. We have heard nothing from the sector to indicate anything to the contrary. Under the current system of driving, roughly 95% of people who present for a driving test do so with an ADI. They learn with an ADI, but they supplement that learning with a supervising driver, usually a parent or guardian. I have to say that, if you ever want to destroy your relationship with your daughter, try to teach her how to drive. [Laughter.]

That situation will continue, except that they will also be able to do the programme of training with them.

Mr Stewart: OK. That is good to know.

I have two more points about the potential exemptions. Obviously, there will be people who, for a variety of reasons, may wish to seek exemptions. What is the pathway for that, and when will people be able to engage in that process?

Mr Delaney: They will be able to engage in the process from 1 October, because that is when GDL comes in. The exemption will be from the mandatory minimum learning period. They will still have to complete the programme of training and the logbook to show that they have completed the training. That will be for people who are in receipt of carer's allowance. We have already been engaging with the Department for Communities, and, if someone comes to us with a request to be exempt from the mandatory minimum learning period, we will check their entitlement to carer's allowance with the Department for Communities. Only upon confirmation that they are in receipt of that entitlement will we then exempt them from it.

There is another exemption: a military exemption. We do not think that we will apply that in Northern Ireland, and that is because the military has centralised its training in GB. We do not believe that that will be one of the exemptions that we will have to use, and that is because of that decision by the Ministry of Defence.

Mr Stewart: OK. It is topical that you have brought that up. Having done military driving courses in England and Wales, I know that it is centralised there. Often, however, young drivers who may have passed through advanced driving schemes in the military may be bringing passengers over to Northern Ireland; for example, for training on the ranges. They may well be carrying passengers after 11.00 pm within that six-month period. If that is the case, will there be an exemption for them, or will they have to apply for that?

Mr Delaney: They will pass the exam in GB, so they will have a GB licence. That GB licence is not covered by GDL in Northern Ireland. It is a Northern Ireland scheme.

Mr Stewart: I am asking about Northern Ireland residents who, like me, have gone over and came back.

Mr Delaney: If they are a Northern Ireland resident and have a GB licence, and they then transfer that licence to a Northern Ireland licence, it would be a Northern Ireland licence without the restrictions.

Mr Stewart: I am sorry for getting into the minutiae of this, but it is one of the questions that I have asked a number of people.

Mr Delaney: You are testing me.

Mr Boylan: That is why you are on Zoom, John.

Dr Hughes: The UK launched a road safety strategy on, I think, 7 January. That covers England and Wales. As part of that, a consultation will be done on, if I recall correctly, similar aspects, though not graduated driver licensing. A lot of it has been driven by a particular tragedy in Wales, which I think a lot of members will recall. They are looking at a similar thing. We are at the implementation stage, while they are doing a consultation on it.

Mr Stewart: The idea of a newsletter will be very beneficial. Even though we knew that this would come at some stage, we were caught on the hop a little bit, so we have asked a heck of a lot of questions. A lot of questions for written answer are going in. The FAQs page on your website is proving to be very helpful. Can that be updated as questions for written answer are answered on very niche matters in advance of a newsletter's being published, with all the details for representatives and people concerned?

Mr Delaney: Yes. It is a campaign page. We have more flexibility with a campaign page to put FAQs onto our internet site, as opposed to some of the tight restrictions that are applied to nidirect and the information that we supply it. As questions and niche issues come in and we address those, they will, of course, be added to that. That will be live.

Mr Stewart: Excellent. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I have no doubt that we will engage further as the process moves on. Again, apologies for not being with you in person.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Good to see you, John.

I will pick up on one issue that John talked about, after which I think that you guys will be free. I am sure that there will be a large sigh of relief about that. Pat, you talked about how young people learn to drive. I think that you quoted a figure for how many use family members and how many use driving instructors. Will you give that back to me?

Mr Delaney: The figure relates to tests. We estimate that around 90% or 95% of those who present for a test do so with an ADI.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine. Do you accept that there is a mixed model when it comes to how new drivers prepare for their test? As you said, some of them use their father or mother to teach them to drive. Some will use their mum or dad, plus a driving instructor, and mix it around. Some might use just a driving instructor the whole time. Is that a fair representation so far?

Mr Delaney: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Learning to drive can be expensive. Some parents will probably take the view that they will teach their son or daughter to drive and that they will use some driving lessons because of the expertise that instructors bring to the picture. It can be a very expensive process for working families, and that is just learning to drive part, not including the cost of insurance or of buying a car. There may be a view from some parents that their child will need additional support — driving lessons — for the 14 additional modules. Is that fair enough?

Mr Delaney: They are not additional modules. The programme of training provides a structure for driving. It brings into sharp focus the human factors of learning to drive, as opposed to just the technical factors, so that, at the end of the process, you have a learner driver who is more competent technically and more competent in the behaviours of learning to drive and of other road users, including vulnerable road users.

Everyone learns at a different speed. I do not know whether it will take more lessons, but I imagine that, during the course of learning to drive, people will absorb the information and be better prepared for the driving test. We will not know what effect it has had until we have done GDL for a year or two and checked against the baseline. You will be familiar with the GDL monitoring report, which is produced every year. We will be able to use that GDL monitoring report as the baseline against which we can measure some of the outputs.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is great.

Nobody else has indicated that they would like to ask a question. Adrian, Chris and Pat, thank you for your time today and for coming to the Committee meeting and answering questions. It has been useful for us — maybe less useful for you — and it is good that you were here. I am sure that a lot of people have been watching to learn about the additional information that you were able to provide. Thank you very much.