Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I welcome the Infrastructure Minister, Liz Kimmins, to the Committee. She is flanked by her permanent secretary, Declan McGeown. Does the Committee agree to the session's being recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I invite the Minister to make an opening statement of up to 10 minutes, after which, as you will probably be aware, members will ask some questions. It would be good if we could maximise our time with you this morning, so, if you could keep your answers as brief and to the point as possible, that would be very useful. The floor is yours.

Ms Kimmins (The Minister for Infrastructure): Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I am delighted to be back at the Committee. As members will be aware, I have now been in post for just over a year, and this is my third time before most of you. There are some new faces since I was here most recently. I am really glad to be here, and I hope that we can maximise the time to talk about the many key issues that the Department is dealing with.

As Minister for Infrastructure, I have had the pleasure of meeting a wide range of people who have a genuine interest in growing our economy, protecting our environment and, most importantly, improving our communities. Those are ambitions that I share. I am privileged to be Infrastructure Minister because, as we all know, infrastructure underpins all that we do and holds the key to creating the type of society that we all want to live in.

Today, I will focus on what my Department has delivered since I was most recently at the Committee and also look forward to what we plan to deliver in the coming months. However, I start by paying tribute to my staff and the staff of NI Water and Translink. You will all recall that, on 26 January, we saw storm Chandra, which had recorded wind speeds of 75-plus mph and widespread heavy rainfall. In fact, the Met Office stated that January 2026 was the wettest January in 149 years in the North and the second wettest on record. During that week, rain fell on already saturated ground, which led to flooding in various locations throughout the North. That resulted in flooding on land and in some people's homes, and it even impacted on the Belfast to Dublin railway line. Properties in Antrim were particularly badly affected, and I saw that for myself when I visited Riverside and met residents there. Overall, however, the impact of the flooding would have been much worse had it not been for the work of my Department and the multi-agency partners involved. The Department has well tried and tested emergency plans for such situations, and it activated its major emergency response plan. I pay particular tribute to the staff who worked outside, day and night, throughout that time in very challenging weather conditions. They were out on the front line, providing assistance in the worst of weather. They left their families and ordinary day-to-day work to deliver public services to our people. I am sure that the Committee joins me in thanking them for their service and commitment during that time.

Unfortunately, such extreme weather events are becoming increasingly common here. My Department is delivering key schemes to help to alleviate such incidents. This year already, I have completed the £33 million Belfast tidal flood alleviation scheme; invested £430,000 in the Elmwood Green stream flood alleviation scheme in Castlederg; advanced works on the £60 million Portadown flood alleviation scheme, which, when completed, will reduce the risk of river flooding to over 380 homes; and increased the grant-funding threshold for the homeowner flood protection grant scheme. Looking forward, I am progressing the development of a flood forecasting centre, with the outline business case due to be completed in the coming months, and I anticipate that the Newry phase 2 flood alleviation scheme will begin later this year.

I am keen to work with the Committee on the further commencement of the Reservoirs Act (NI) 2015. I know that the Committee has been involved in scrutinising the secondary legislation and has been awaiting the results of the consultation on grant support for initial inspection costs. You will shortly receive the consultation report that confirms grant support for initial inspections for reservoir managers in the private and not-for-profit sector. I hope that that will assist the Committee in its deliberations. I am committed to advancing that important public safety work as quickly as possible. I cannot stress enough how vital it is that that legislation be further commenced in this mandate, given the scale of flood risk from controlled reservoirs in the North.

One of the key challenges for the Department has undoubtedly been the need to find solutions to rectify decades of underinvestment in our waste water network. That is something that the Committee has been discussing with various organisations. I have been working in partnership with key water stakeholders to find innovative ways in which to unlock waste water capacity by finding localised solutions. For example, last summer, I secured an additional £11 million to help to unlock waste water capacity in Derry, which will enable over 3,000 new waste water connections for the city over the next two to three years. That followed on from the £19 million that my predecessor secured, which unlocked over 2,000 properties. Indeed, over the past 18 months, my Department has unlocked over 5,300 properties across the North, which has already exceeded the target of 4,500 properties set by the Utility Regulator during the PC21 period, and we are only in 2026.

Even without significant increased funding, we have achieved numerous localised successes, including unlocking more waste water capacity in Newry. Encouragingly, the second quarter of 2025 saw the highest number of new house starts since 2018, with 2,000 new houses starting to be built and construction output's reaching a 15-year high. I am determined to continue to work with NI Water to find local solutions to those issues whilst also delivering on my three-pronged approach. Whilst seeking all opportunities at the Executive for additional capital money, this year will see further work undertaken on allowing developers to voluntarily contribute to local waste water networks, which will help them to build much-needed houses. At the same time, work will continue on progressing the Water, Sustainable Drainage and Flood Management Bill, which will help to reduce pollution by removing excess water from the network by storing it in sustainable drainage systems (SuDS).

A number of business organisations have proposed the idea of introducing an infrastructure levy on top of household rates. Any decision to apply an additional levy to rates bills would be a cross-cutting matter to be considered by the Executive. Substantive changes would need to be made to rating legislation and the rating administration system in respect of such a change. However, for the avoidance of doubt, for me, that represents a form of water charging, so I will not propose that an infrastructure charge be added to household rates. Imposing any form of water charges would increase the financial burden that is already faced by people here.

I have often talked about the three-pronged approach, which is about looking at what else we can do in different ways. It is about looking at natural drainage solutions through the Bill currently going through the Assembly. Importantly, it is also about lobbying Ministers to secure additional funding, as well as allowing developers to play their part where they can to unlock drainage solutions in local areas.

The Committee will also be aware that road safety remains a key commitment of mine. Last year, sadly, 56 people were killed on our roads. We are all too aware of the lives that have been lost in the past two months — indeed, in the past week. Too many people are dying on our roads. That has been brought into sharp focus by the awful news of recent days, including just yesterday, when a young man died following Monday night's collision on the A5. Every single death on our roads is a profound loss to the community, and to the families and friends of those who died. That is why I am determined to undertake a range of measures to continually improve road safety across the North. I look forward to seeing the feedback from the public consultation on the review of speed limits, which was launched last month. That is aimed at improving road safety, as speed is a significant causation factor for collisions. The consultation is still live, and I encourage as many people as possible to feed into it and have their say. In the meantime, I am taking forward a range of measures to improve road safety, including the third tranche of part-time 20 mph zones at 40 schools, bringing the total number delivered to 273. I approved a budget allocation of almost £2 million for road safety promotion for the 2025-26 financial year. Earlier this year, I launched an anti-drug-driving advertising campaign, along with a school bus safety campaign. Two new hard-hitting advertisements addressing speeding and driver behaviour are being finalised and are due to go live in the next two weeks.

Just a few weeks ago, I launched the graduated driver licensing (GDL) scheme. We are the first region across these islands to introduce such a scheme, which is the most significant reform to driver licensing and testing in almost 70 years. The scheme is designed to reduce the disproportionate involvement of new — primarily young — drivers in fatal and serious road traffic collisions. That age group accounts for 24% of fatal or serious collisions despite holding just 8% of licences. I believe that, later in today's meeting, the Committee will have the chance to commence its consideration and scrutiny of the package of SL1s needed to facilitate the introduction of GDL. I value your input into that important matter.

In my role as Minister, I regularly meet families of victims of road traffic collisions, and hear harrowing stories of loved ones no longer with us as a result of those collisions. I have promised to do everything within my power in my time as Minister to improve road safety. As part of that commitment, I established the safer routes to school programme to ensure that we are doing everything possible to protect children on their daily routes to school. I hope that the Committee can see that I am delivering on those promises, and I thank the Committee for its support for our combined efforts to reduce the number of people killed or seriously injured on the roads.

I am determined to do everything possible to deliver on road safety through the development of new and upgraded roads. The A5 remains a key commitment for me, and I look forward to hearing the outcome of the current legal appeal. Whilst the A5 has huge strategic importance, with the potential to tackle regional imbalance, improve the economy and connect communities, it is, above all, about saving lives. I hope that we all keep that at the forefront of our minds.

I am very aware of the debate around the current condition of our road network, especially the growing number of potholes and defects that have developed during the exceptionally wet period this winter. Like our waste water network, that issue can be traced back to the constant underinvestment in our network over many years. I assure the Committee that I take that issue very seriously. You will be aware that, yesterday, I announced a further £2·5 million for essential roads maintenance in this financial year. There has been an investment of over £40 million in roads since December 2025. That extra money is in addition to the £7·85 million winter recovery road fund and the 40 resurfacing schemes programmed following the £30 million December monitoring allocation.

Over recent months, I have asked officials to explore urgently every avenue to maximise our available workforce capacity to ensure that we are doing as much as we can. Following engagement with our contractors, we have secured additional capacity that will allow us to carry out essential repairs across our roads divisions. Recent storms, prolonged rainfall and ice and snow have all taken their toll on the roads, with 49,000 defects recorded in the past three months alone, which is close to half the total for the whole of the previous year. We see that year-on-year, but it is important that we try to deal with it and get ahead of it. The winter recovery road fund, which now stands at over £10 million, will allow vital repairs to the worst affected areas to be carried out in a focused way and completed as soon as possible.

I want to raise the standard of maintenance across the network in a long-term, sustainable way. That is why, in December, I launched the new road maintenance strategy.

As part of that process, I have commissioned a full digital road survey of all the roads in the North, using advanced AI and HD imaging. Every road will be captured and used to identify and prioritise urgent maintenance to address such defects as potholes. In practice, that means that, instead of filling one or two potholes and skipping over others, there will be more patch resurfacing. When that is done, repairs will last longer because they will be of better quality. I am committed to raising the standard of maintenance across the network and to ensuring that interventions are timely, durable and delivered to consistently high specifications. That will reduce long-term costs, improve user experience and enhance safety.

While the strategy and survey will provide greater detail to inform strategic decision-making, it will continue to be supported by the reporting of potholes and defects via the online portal. I thank the public and elected reps for their continued work to ensure that my Department has as much information as possible to try to deal with the situation as quickly as possible. Maintenance staff will continue to inspect and make safe defects, in accordance with our policy, to help to ensure the safety of the travelling public.

Another key area of delivery is active travel. I am committed to increasing investment in active travel across the North. I recognise its benefits to the lives of people who want greater choice in how they travel, particularly when it comes to shorter, everyday journeys. This year has seen progress in a number of projects. The Lagmore Avenue scheme and phase 1 of the west Belfast greenway have been delivered, and the £430,000 active travel scheme for Cookstown has been commenced. Consultants have also recently been commissioned to advance a further six major active travel schemes for the Department. Looking forward, I intend to bring forward more active travel schemes, as well as continuing to provide grant funding to local councils to support the delivery of greenways and other active travel initiatives.

Over the past year, we have made significant advances in our public transport network, including the full opening of Grand Central station, the introduction of night buses in Belfast, and hourly train services between Belfast and Dublin. I am delighted that the new Enterprise service has seen a 40% increase in passengers since it was introduced in autumn 2024. There has been an additional 30,000 journeys on late-night train and bus services this year. That work, along with extensive stakeholder engagement and such initiatives as the extension of bus lanes and the bringing forward of the roadworks embargo, helped to improve access to Belfast city centre, especially at Christmas, when we did not see a repeat of the traffic congestion that was experienced the previous year.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Minister, I think that you have had your 10 minutes.

Ms Kimmins: I was just coming to the end, anyway.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Is that OK?

Ms Kimmins: That is fine; no problem.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you for that. You went through a lot of key areas that I am confident that members will pick up on as we go through. I will start, as is standard for the Committee. I will then hand over to John, and a list of members who want to ask a question has been formulated. I will keep an eye on my time, and we will try to get through all members in the session.

The first thing that I will pick up on is something that the Committee has been very interested in for a couple of months: billboards in your area. Are you aware of any illegal billboards on DFI land in the Newry area?

Ms Kimmins: There are issues with advertising and signage all over the North, and not just on DFI land. We see that all the time. The issue has been well discussed and debated. We have talked about it repeatedly through Assembly debates, Question Time, questions for written answer and correspondence, and I have continued to answer those questions. As I have said, every erection of advertising or signage within the boundaries of a public road is assessed through the Department under article 87 of the Roads Order, which gives the Department discretionary powers to look at whether removal is appropriate. We have talked about that. There are lots of examples everywhere — we could go down a rabbit hole if we needed to — but priority is always given to erections of any signage, or whatever it may be, that is a safety hazard. Where they are reported or picked up by the Department, they are assessed.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I am going to ask you that question again, Minister, because you did not answer it: are you aware of any illegal billboards in the Newry area on DFI land?

Ms Kimmins: I am saying that there are examples all over the North. It is not specific to Newry. There are lots of things erected everywhere. I am not sure how much clearer that I need to be on that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. I am not sure that you answered the question.

Do you agree that, as part of your departmental briefing for a question for urgent oral answer on Tuesday 20 January, under topic 4, you were advised that there was other advertising in the Newry area? Did you read that briefing, and are you aware of that fact? I refer to topic 4 on page 11 of your briefing.

Ms Kimmins: I do not have the briefing in front of me, but I assume that, if that was in it, it was noted.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. From FOIs, we know that a number of illegal billboards were erected in Newry. Do you know who owned them or who put them up? Do you know the FOIs that I am referring to? There was also correspondence that your Department sent to us.

Ms Kimmins: My understanding is that anything that was referred to in correspondence was removed. I stated that very clearly in the debate in the Assembly.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): The billboards that I refer to, which were mentioned in the letter of 25 November, are adverts containing the Sinn Féin logo in the locations of Armagh Road, Rathfriland Road, William Street, Bridge Street and Camlough Road. Were you aware of those?

Ms Kimmins: My understanding is that whatever was there has been removed.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Is it fair to say that the billboards were advertising Sinn Féin?

Ms Kimmins: I assume so, if that is what the correspondence says.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is fine.

Minister, I turn to another issue along a similar line: between 2023 and 2025, was an illegal billboard in place at the Egyptian Arch?

Ms Kimmins: We have talked repeatedly about that in the Chamber. I have clearly said that whatever posters or billboards were there have been removed. That has been confirmed. I was not Minister in 2023, and nor do I have any part in putting up billboards or posters. That is not something that I do for a pastime. As I said, anything that was there has been removed.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine. Do you know who owned the billboard between 2023 and 2025? Do you have any knowledge of that?

Ms Kimmins: Who owned the billboard?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes.

Ms Kimmins: There were billboards there with Sinn Féin logos on them. We have talked about that. That billboard has since been removed. As I have said, the Department wrote letters at the time. There was correspondence in November. That has now been removed.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): During that period, it was a Sinn Féin billboard: is that fair to say?

Ms Kimmins: If there was a Sinn Féin logo on it, I assume that it was a Sinn Féin billboard. We have discussed that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Do you accept that the billboard was erected illegally? Is that fair to say?

Ms Kimmins: The Department has indicated that in its correspondence. That is the Department's assessment.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I raised that with you because it has been talked about at Committee, and you referred to the fact that we have talked about it in the Assembly. There is clearly a feeling amongst some constituents and Committee members that, somehow, for two years, your party erected a billboard, nobody took it down and it sat there. In fact, it was there until the Committee started to look into the issue, after which, suddenly, things changed and the advertising came off it completely. To round up my questioning on the issue, do you agree that it seems that, in that situation, your party put up a billboard without planning permission, and that other people in Northern Ireland could say, "Well, why can't I do stuff without planning permission?"? Do you accept that there are two tiers in that regard?

Ms Kimmins: As I said in the debate, the discussion is about a single item. Let us have the discussion across the board. There are numerous examples everywhere. There is scope to look at how we deal with such things in regulation, but the issue that we are talking about is in the past. It has been dealt with, and, as far as I am concerned, it has concluded.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I will finish my line of questioning on this point. A women's group in my constituency contacted me when it heard about what it called the "Sinn Féin Egyptian Arch billboard saga". That group wanted to take some grilles off the outside windows of a preschool nursery. It was told that it needed to get planning permission and elevation drawings just to take the grilles off. That in itself cost more than the work of taking those grilles off. It seems that a lot of constituents in Northern Ireland — in this case, a preschool nursery — play by the rules. Everyone knows that you are responsible for planning enforcement in Northern Ireland, but there is a perception that there are two tiers in what we have seen. Other members may wish to pick up on that.

I will use my final few minutes to ask about the waste water crisis. Minister, are you concerned about the house price rises that we see in Northern Ireland? Do you know how much they are going up by, year-on-year?

Ms Kimmins: We have seen a number of factors impact on house prices for some time. The costs of delivering PC21 have increased by 85% since 2021. That in itself is indicative of the cost environment in which we operate. Increases in house prices are not underpinned purely by waste water infrastructure. A number of factors, including COVID and the cost of living, have impacted on the cost of materials. I know from speaking to people daily that anyone who is doing work, even minor work, to their homes has seen significant cost rises.

We see house price rises right across the board. Indeed, the price of a house in the South of Ireland is almost double what people are looking at here. That is not to say that it is not an issue; of course, it is, and the Executive are working hard to address that.

From a waste water perspective — I assume that that is the direction that you are going in with your question — I outlined in my opening remarks the work that has been done by my predecessor and me to do everything in our power to get investment into our waste water infrastructure to keep progress moving.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you for that. As I said yesterday in the Budget debate, house prices in Northern Ireland are going up by 9·7%, year-on-year. That is 10 times the rate in London and only 0·3% less than the rate in the Republic, which everyone would admit is in some degree of housing crisis. Build Homes NI has said that completion rates are at a 60-year low in Northern Ireland; there are around 6,000 completions a year. Yesterday, the Chartered Institute of Housing said that new home starts in Northern Ireland have fallen to their lowest levels since 2013, and it specifically warned of "a deepening wastewater infrastructure ... crisis". Minister, do you accept that there is a crisis, and that you do not yet have a handle on how to deal with it?

Ms Kimmins: You have referred to some quotes, but, as I said in my opening remarks, my understanding is that we have seen a 15% rise in construction since 2018. By the end of September 2025, 4,211 new dwellings were completed, and there were 5,549 new starts. It is important to cross-reference both quotes, because my understanding is that we have seen an upturn. I am not suggesting that it is something to be championed, because I know that there is a lot more work to do, but it is contrary to some of the points that you outlined.

Housing is not a responsibility solely for my Department. My Department is responsible for waste water infrastructure, but we work very closely with the Department for Communities, DAERA, NI Water and others to try to find solutions and work collaboratively, and we have been able to do that, particularly on localised solutions. I spoke about some of those in my opening remarks as well. We continue to do that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I am nearly at the end of my time, Minister, so I will make one more comment and ask one more question. I will try to stick to my own rules.

The percentage rise that you quoted is interesting. Construction will naturally rise in Northern Ireland, because your Department recently got the largest ever capital budget settlement of any Department in Northern Ireland. Construction is rising, and that is the basis of that figure. What I am saying is that, because of the waste water crisis, there is a contraction in the number of houses that are being built.

The Construction Employers Federation (CEF) has also stated in evidence that the Bill, effectively, will not deal with the ongoing waste water crisis. Writing over the weekend, Mick Fealty in 'Slugger O'Toole' said:

I know that a lot of people feel that, and they will feel it increasingly because of the waste water crisis and a 10% year-on-year increase in housing prices. Are you concerned about young families and young people who are trying to buy houses but cannot because they are being priced out of the market? That is happening because of the waste water crisis, and your Department, ultimately, is responsible for managing that process. Do you think that that is fair?

Ms Kimmins: I think that we all should be concerned about that. That is everyone in this room and, particularly, everyone in the Executive. You have said that that is solely as a result of the challenges with waste water. I do not agree with that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I did not say "solely". It is a major factor.

Ms Kimmins: You used that as the reason for it. It is not the reason for it. It is a factor in the challenges that we face. You also talked about the capital allocation to the Department. In the previous mandate, the Minister also got the highest capital allocation ever. Does that mean that it will deal with all the problems? Absolutely not. It is nominal. When people see an inflationary increase in their salary year-on-year, does that mean that they can, all of a sudden, buy a lot more? No, it does not. It means that their salary is rising in line with the cost of everything else around them. It is OK to get a headline saying, "DFI has its biggest capital allocation ever, so why do we have problems?", but that is not realistic. You have to drill into it and look at exactly what you can spend and what you can deliver with the budget that you are given. Working with my Executive colleagues, I have set out to look at how we can maximise the benefit that we can deliver for that capital allocation. We have seen years upon years of underinvestment, and that has taken its toll. We are constantly playing catch-up on waste water, roads maintenance and public transport, however we have to look at new solutions. That is where I am talking about the three-pronged approach that I am setting out to take.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I am sure that those prongs will come to feature in other questions. Over to you, John.

Mr Stewart: Thanks, Minister, for coming along. Declan, congratulations on your new role. I have not seen you officially in the Committee since your appointment.

Mr Declan McGeown (Department for Infrastructure): It is only temporary, but thank you, John.

Mr Stewart: Yes. It is good to see you both. Minister, as you said, it is just over a year since you have been in post, and you have had plenty of time to get your feet under the table. As the Chair said, the Department has had the highest amount, whether resource or capital, given. You have waxed lyrical about the serial underfunding. I think that, in more than 134 questions for written answer, that was the response that Members received. That having been said, out of the £1·55 billion a year, can you outline, as Minister, what directives you have given to your permanent secretary and your divisional heads to make efficiency savings internally? Can you give a figure from the work that has been done to maximise efficiency savings in the Department and to streamline the different divisions in your organisation for maximum output?

Ms Kimmins: This morning, I have outlined the key priority areas to which we direct the funding that has been available to us. NI Water and Translink have capital needs, and the Barton report set out that, I think, £1·6 billion is needed to adequately maintain the entire road network, which is 26,000 kilometres of roads. That, in itself, is equivalent to the entire capital budget, and that outlines the challenges that we face. We all have a responsibility to find efficiencies, and we are continually doing that in the Department. I mentioned earlier how we were able to reallocate £2·5 million yesterday from looking at efficiencies and at where we have some savings that we can prioritise into those areas of need. That is a continual piece of work on which I work very closely with officials. Indeed, for the financial year ahead, we are looking very closely at the budget to see where we can make further efficiencies.

I am sure that we will get into the roads issue because I know how critical it is. You only have to do a quick google search to see that the same headlines have been coming up for the past 10 years. That has not just arisen in 2026. In fact, you could change the name of the Minister or the year of the article, and the headlines would be exactly the same. Does that mean that we just accept it? No, and that is why I have decided to take a different approach. The draft roads maintenance strategy looks at how we do that differently. It looks at our budget not just for this year but, hopefully, for multiple years, with the multi-year Budget, so that we can target investments, look after the assets that we have, build resilience in the road network and sustainability, and see longer-term solutions so that we are not in a constant cycle of taking a reactionary approach to the road network.

Of course there are things that are beyond our control, one of which is the weather. Whilst people have tried to dismiss that, it is an absolute fact. You only have to look at the issues that are being raised across England, Scotland and Wales and this island to see that it impacts on all jurisdictions, not just here. We are not sitting in a bubble where only our roads are deteriorating. That is why, for me, we need to see action and to look at whether we can do things differently so that we get ahead of it with the budget that we have.

Mr Stewart: Thank you. You point to the redirection of more than £2 million internally, but I did not really hear about any specific work that is being done in the divisions to try to maximise efficiencies and output. I do not know whether the permanent secretary wants to come in on the work that is going on. It is critical that each division does that work and highlights what is being done. Can you elaborate more on that?

Mr McGeown: I will amplify what the Minister said about the challenge that we face. The Utility Regulator has said that Northern Ireland Water needs £431 million this year. In 2019, the Barton report, which the Minister referred to, set out the need for £145 million. That figure is now £195 million. Translink needs around £300 million. A quick calculation will tell you that you are up to nearly a billion pounds before you start. That challenges us as a Department. We have proactively looked at how we can be more efficient. You will know and will have heard during our previous visits to the Committee that we have been successful in securing transformation bids for sustainable drainage and planning.

There are other avenues where we can be more transformative. We had a senior civil servants' session last Thursday, during which we demonstrated through a show-and-tell some of the efficiency programmes that we are taking forward. We also put out a challenge to be more efficient and to put that into the DNA of the Department. We will meet the Minister in a couple of weeks' time to look at how we can manage the indicative budget that we have going into next year, with all the challenges that I have just outlined. We are alive to it. We are doing a lot of work to make sure that we position ourselves. The funding only goes so far, and that means that we have to make difficult decisions. When you look at those challenges from the outset, you can see what we are up against.

Mr Stewart: Thanks, Declan. I appreciate the financial situation that we are in. I do not think that anyone is unaware of it. It is incumbent on us to raise the questions in order to make sure that work is being done. We all agree that every pound is a prisoner in that respect.

In light of that, Minister, can you outline how much has been spent to date in the pursuit of potentially installing Irish language signage at Belfast Grand Central station through scoping exercises and any associated legal costs?

Ms Kimmins: You will know that there is an ongoing legal challenge, so we have not moved ahead with —

Mr Stewart: Is there any indication of what that has cost to date?

Ms Kimmins: The legal challenge?

Mr Stewart: Yes.

Ms Kimmins: No, we do not have those figures.

Mr Stewart: Can you outline how much has been spent to date?

Ms Kimmins: As you will know, no physical infrastructure or signage has been erected to date, so, at this time, my understanding is that nothing has been spent. It would be remiss of me to go into the details while there is a live court case ongoing. I hope to see a positive outcome to that. A focal point such as Grand Central station, the largest integrated transport hub on this island, is something that we — everyone across our communities — should be very proud of. It would be fantastic to see that being reflective of the diverse community that we have here.

Mr Stewart: It is undoubtedly a wonderful asset. However, at a time when we agree that every pound is a prisoner, we need to be strategic and to rationalise and prioritise the limited spend that we have. For ultimate delivery by the Department, it would be worthwhile setting aside anything at all that can be set aside. That is my concern about it.

I will move on to the roads maintenance strategy. The last time that you were at the Committee, you talked about the Ards and North Down pilots and how the roads maintenance strategy will be almost transformational in what we see on our roads. You talked about the £40 million investment. Can you outline where that will be spent, how it will be spent, how we will get the biggest bang for our buck and what tangible benefits constituents will see on the back of the roads maintenance strategy when it comes to its delivery? How much difference will it make?

Ms Kimmins: I look to the Chair as being a representative from Ards and North Down. The feedback that we got from people in that area was positive, certainly. I have responded to Adjournment debates that highlighted significant issues with the road network in that area, and we have seen good outcomes in relation to that, which have fed into the broader strategy.

As I have outlined previously, our budget situation is not changing dramatically by any stretch, but I am keen to look at how to maximise what we have. We all share frustration over the limited service policy that has been in place for over 15 years. Contractors and staff can go out and fix one pothole because it meets the criteria, but there may be three or four around it that just do not meet the criteria, meaning that they are not able to fix those. The strategy looks at bigger patching areas in order to build that resilience and make for longer-term solutions because, as we have all seen, they inevitably have to come back time and again to fix the remaining potholes, once they meet the criteria.

That is one way of looking at in simple terms. Where we do repairs, they need to be long-lasting, sustainable and tackle a bigger area, rather than being inefficient and therefore requiring staff to go out time and again. We talked about the digital survey. That is about getting information in real time, looking at not only where the immediate, worst defects are but where input or investment is likely to be needed in the time ahead. That includes our entire network of roads and footpaths.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Minister, I will draw you to a close. John, you have time for one quick, final question, with one quick response from the Minister.

Mr Stewart: I have 15 potential areas of questions, but I will focus on planning. We have heard from companies such as Mobile UK, the renewables sector and foreign direct investment (FDI) companies that the planning process is, quite simply, not fit for purpose when it comes to attracting investment into Northern Ireland and that companies are going elsewhere. What is going to be done to streamline the process and make sure that we are open to business when it comes to investment in key infrastructure projects?

Ms Kimmins: It is more about what is being done than what is going to be done. A lot of that work is under way, as Members will be aware. I am sure that the Committee has had briefings on the planning improvement programme and the work that the Department has been doing on that. I cannot overstate the importance of having an efficient and effective planning system, and the planning improvement programme was commenced because we recognised that. We are coming up to, I think, the eleventh year of planning having been devolved to councils, and there is definitely room for improvement. Officials have been working in close collaboration with the 11 councils — committee members and planners in the councils — to identify the key issues and, most importantly, to identify solutions.

The Committee is aware that we recently launched the trainee planner programme. That is about trying to encourage new people into the system via a pathway that is almost like an apprenticeship. That bodes well for retention. Staffing is probably the biggest challenge for our planning system, and I am sure that everyone around the table could look to examples in their areas of the challenges that that presents.

It is also about strengthening good practice across all areas so that we can look at where good practice occurs — what works well in some areas, and what does not work so well — and give planning committees and planners an opportunity to address that and find ways forward as well as addressing the broader legislative and system —.

Mr Stewart: What is the rough time frame for completion of that?

Ms Kimmins: We are in phase 2. We will keep the Committee informed as we go through the process. We have already seen some positive outcomes, but it will take some time to bed in.

Mr McReynolds: It feels as though I am in 'The Crystal Maze' back in the day.

Ms Kimmins: I feel like I am speed dating. [Laughter.]

Mr McReynolds: I will rattle through as quickly as I can. You mentioned road safety. Can we get an update on the legislative changes in relation to drink-driving and drug-driving and the changes to the Highway Code made in GB around four years ago? I sit on the Policing Board, and that is something that it is interested in. Can we get an update on the legislative changes that your Department has been looking at?

Ms Kimmins: Yes. As part of my Department's commitments to road safety under the strategy, officials are reviewing the current drink-drive legislative framework. It is a very complex area. I am expecting a briefing from officials on drink-drive limits and where we go with that. It is a very important area of work. I mentioned earlier the anti-drug-driving campaign that we recently launched. In collaboration with the Road Safety Partnership (NIRSP), we see that as a key causation factor in many collisions. I will get more information during the briefing from officials on what direction we intend to go, but we are actively looking at that.

Mr McReynolds: I note that it was discussed last year at the Policing Board. You are waiting for a briefing, but do we have a time frame for potential changes?

Ms Kimmins: Not at the minute, but I can try to get more information about when I can expect to hear more. I am due to hear back from officials fairly imminently. Declan, are you aware of that?

Mr McGeown: It is that very point, Minister. Officials will brief the Minister on proposals in the not-too-distant future. We will come back to you on that.

Mr McReynolds: The revised Highway Code came in four years ago in GB. I think that there were changes about vehicles turning and prioritisation for cyclists and pedestrians. That has not happened here. A recent response to me said that there were resourcing issues. Have we overcome those? Will we try to get that change implemented?

Ms Kimmins: I do not think that we have progressed any further on that. We are working across a number of different areas, but that issue has been raised by some organisations as well, particularly the cycling groups that I met. We are keeping it under review, but, at this time, I do not have an updated timeline for that.

Mr McReynolds: Secondly, keeping on the road safety angle, I will ask about medical fitness to drive. I know that you met people fairly recently. It is fair to say that they are a bit disappointed when it comes to what they want to be achieved on the policy side related to medical fitness to drive. Do you have any updates on your and your Department's current thinking on that?

Ms Kimmins: I am not aware of what the concern is, but I am happy to speak to you about that further. I was very keen to work on that. Given my background in health and in dealing with people who have different medical needs, I recognise the importance of that. We did a recent campaign with Anne Flanagan, who talked about how something as simple as getting her eyes tested made her realise that she needed glasses, and she said that it made a real impact on her driving. That was about raising awareness. However, I have met the Health Minister about this, and officials in Health and my Department have been working collaboratively on how we move ahead. I take that matter very seriously. I constantly talk about how there is a broad range of issues in road safety on which we can continually narrow the gaps by doing lots of things that will have an accumulative effect and ensure that more people are safer on our roads.

Mr McReynolds: I will turn to the trust ports classification Bill. I met representatives from the harbour recently — it is in my constituency — and they want me to say that they are very grateful for your and officials' input. We had a very good Committee session with Sian Kerr, and I was reassured about the work that they are doing. Are we still confident that we can deliver that in this mandate?

Ms Kimmins: Yes, absolutely. There are two key pieces of legislation that I am planning to take forward. I know from my engagement with the ports that the issue is very important to them. The policy recommendations from the review of trust ports were endorsed by the Executive in November 2025, so I hope to be in a position to introduce the ports Bill to the Assembly in the coming weeks as we approach the spring.

Mr McReynolds: Belfast Rapid Transit phase 2 (BRT2) was in the media recently. I have that in my constituency as well, going from east to west Belfast. The anticipated date is, I think, 2033. Can you give any information on why it is that specific date? Can we still try to achieve that by 2030?

Ms Kimmins: To be clear, there have not been any delays. There has been a miscommunication or a misinterpretation of the dates provided. The 2033 date was based on the entire project. Early last year, in one of the first statements that I made in the Assembly, I announced plans for the next phase. That remains on track, and we hope to be in the construction phase of that aspect of the project next year. However, further work was needed to look at the Carryduff to Glengormley aspect of it. We could, potentially, have all that completed by 2033. Obviously, that is dependent on budgets, which I said in the statement. Everything that we do is critical to the project, but we are essentially on track as regards the time frames that we set out for BRT2 and anticipate that those will move as planned.

Mr McReynolds: You mentioned active travel. The active travel lobby was in last week, and there is concern about the accountancy exercise that is taking place and the actual active travel spend. They maintain that the spend is roughly the same as it always has been and is being inflated from an accountancy perspective. That is certainly backed up by the Audit Office. I think it is articulated that £50 million is being spent, but that is predominantly on street lights and things like that. I do not think that we are going to change opinions on that today. What can you do, Minister, to reassure them that active travel is still a major focus in your Department? There is concern that it is not as much of a priority as it should be.

Ms Kimmins: As I outlined in my opening remarks, we have work to do. We spend about 5% to 6% of the overall transport budget on active travel but are continually working towards the 10% commitment set out in the Climate Change Act. We have to do that in a balanced way. We are continually developing improved active travel networks but also maintaining the existing infrastructure. You mentioned street lighting. We have to ensure that new and upgraded active travel networks are safe and fit for purpose, and lighting forms part of that work. That is not to over-inflate the figures; it is required as part of the work that we are doing. I want to emphasise my commitment to active travel and that we continually work towards meeting our 10% target. We have good plans. Even the work that we have been doing with councils on greenways shows that the commitment remains and that we are pushing ahead with active travel. Some exciting opportunities are coming forward.

Mr McGeown: Between 2023 and 2025, the dedicated active travel spend increased from £12 million to £18 million. As the Minister, rightly, says, the overall figure is closer to £50 million, so we are putting resources towards it.

Mr McReynolds: One more cheeky one. Do I still have time?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): You have 30 seconds for question and response.

Mr McReynolds: I met the Railway Industry Association last week, and spoke at its conference, and remarked that we do not hear a great deal about the Northern Ireland rail review, certainly not in the Assembly. Are things still going well with that?

Ms Kimmins: Yes. I was at the conference, and I thought that it was fantastic. It was the first time that the association brought it to Ireland, and there were over 300 attendees from across the board.

We recently announced the prioritisation of that review, and a lot of work is ongoing. I ring-fenced £1 million in the budget for Translink to continue the feasibility studies. I set out in the multi-year Budget what would be required to deliver on those commitments. We work closely with our counterparts in the South. In fact, I met Transport Minister Canney while at the conference to discuss what is coming, particularly the Enterprise fleet replacement. It is an exciting time. It is ambitious, there is no doubt about that, but we have seen what can be achieved through collaboration with our counterparts in the South and the likes of the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB), as well as the Shared Island Fund and the Union Connectivity Development Fund. We have to continue to maintain that momentum. From my perspective, we are pressing ahead with what we set out to do and will continue to seek the investment needed to deliver that.

Mr Dunne: Thank you, Minister and Declan, for coming today. We are always glad to see you at the Committee. You are always welcome here as well, but do not leave it as long next time, all being well.

Ms Kimmins: This is the third time in a year, Stephen.

Mr Dunne: Minister, what would you say to many of my constituents who believe that you, as a Sinn Féin Minister, may be deliberately running down the state of our roads to make a constitutional point?

Ms Kimmins: That is absolutely untrue. It is a ludicrous claim to make. As I said, the issues that we see with our roads have not only just happened; they have been reported on year after year. I had a wee look back, as I said, over previous years: the same headlines and the same issues have been raised in January and February going back as far as 2016. That is not to take away from the issue: it is a really important issue, particularly for me. I am a road user, too, as are my family, my friends and our communities. I want to see our road network be fit for purpose. That is why we have been working — Declan will testify to this — extremely hard to find out how we can maximise our very limited resource to deal with the issues that we see. As I said, since December, I have been able to obtain an additional just over £40 million — including funding that came as recently as yesterday — to invest in road maintenance and try to tackle the challenges. However, the reality is that years and years of underinvestment have led us to this point, and it is very difficult to get ahead of that without having to react in the way that we have done.

It is not ideal and, certainly, I would like to be able to front-load investment. Now that we are heading into the next financial year and coming into a bit of drier weather, I would prefer to prioritise investment so that we can bring our road network up to an acceptable and adequate standard for all road users, and we do not see this rapid deterioration next winter.

Mr Dunne: OK. The roads have never been in a worse state than they are under your watch. The "Blame the Brits" approach —.

Ms Kimmins: You say:

Can I just check: is that a fact?

Mr Dunne: That is a fact. My constituents verify it to me day and daily, and they will continue to do so.

Ms Kimmins: Are you comparing that with every other year?

Mr Dunne: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Minister, hold on. At least let him finish. He was beginning to ask his question.

Ms Kimmins: It is important to be accurate when we make claims.

Mr Dunne: There is a crisis on our roads, Minister: I am not sure whether you are aware of that. There is a pothole pandemic: I am not sure that you have a cure. We need a solid action plan. People are fed up and frustrated with strategies and so on; we need to see action. In the Committee last year, you mentioned that one of your foundations was better roads. We have a roads crisis, as backed up by the public liability claims, for example. You have mentioned today that almost 50,000 defects have been recorded in the past three months alone. If you are back here this time next year, Minister, what will have changed?

Ms Kimmins: I have repeatedly outlined very clearly to the Committee and the Assembly, through the various modes of correspondence and in debates, what we are doing and what we intend to do. The Committee knows that the strategy was launched only in recent months. That strategy sets out the plan. It is looking at our tackling the challenges on our roads in a different way. That is an action that I make a commitment to take; it is not talking about what we will do 10 years down the line.

In addition, it is about securing investment. There is an important question to be asked here. As your colleagues in the Executive are acutely aware, we face a significant overspend in the Executive Budget from some of the Ministers sitting around the Executive table who also recognise that there have been years and years of underinvestment. I strive to live within my budget but also to maximise my budget, so that we can deal with those issues. The issues are critically important to me. You ask me whether I am aware of them: of course I am. I travel the roads every single day. I hear about it. I have a constituency office like everybody here has. I am not immune to the issue. I am very keen that we get ahead of it and deal with it. That will be done through investment. I hope that I get the support of Executive colleagues to maximise my investment, so that we can get ahead of it. Without that, it will be very difficult, but I will not shy away from the challenge. I am determined to find ways to improve the roads.

Mr Dunne: The Department tests vehicles to high standards. People in North Down and across Northern Ireland question the poor standard of our roads, given the standard that their vehicles are expected to meet. You mention the strategy, and I have read it. It does not take very long to read it: it is 18 pages, but there are only 10 pages of content, when you take out the graphics, photographs and cover pages. There is no mention, for example, of the role of utility companies and the disruption that they cause on our roads through poor reinstatement and so on. The strategy is very vague and light on action points. You mentioned the 11 years of limited service. Only two years ago, we saw an Audit Office report that made a series of key recommendations. Minister, the public are tired of excuses; they want action. I am keen to hear from you about that, to close out that point.

Ms Kimmins: To reiterate my previous point: I am not making excuses; I am outlining the actions that I have taken and those that I intend to take. You mentioned utility companies: I know that that is a major bugbear for everybody; it is an issue that we hear about time and time again. There are recommendations in the Audit Office report on how to deal with them. We carry out inspections, and, where repairs fail to meet the standard, officials request that they are rectified and they are then subjected to further inspection. There are always issues when utility companies reopen newly resurfaced roads. There are protocols in place to ensure that the Department is notified of planned works well in advance, but, where emergency works are required, it is dealt with differently. We strive to ensure that those are followed up on, and we will continue to do that. We are hearing about that more and more; we are aware of it.

Mr McGeown: Stephen, I will make a quick point. I have been in post for five years, and part of my role is overseeing the budget. We have never been able to fully fund the roads network to the level that we have needed to. That has been a challenge for the five years that I have been in post. The roads have always been in a state that needs to be improved. That is a fact: we know that; we live it; we drive it. It has been overlaid and complicated by the recent weather. The recent weather has been atrocious, and it has been for the past couple of years. I have never seen it so bad. You will have seen the statistics about there being the most rainfall for 149 years. When you combine those factors, you see why it is such a challenge, but it has been like that for five years.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that, but the budget has never been bigger.

Mr McGeown: In nominal terms.

Mr Dunne: We need to get beyond the sticking-plaster approach. The £2·5 million that was found down the back of the sofa on the night before the Committee meeting is welcome, but we need to see more longer-term measures.

I will move on. There is an important principle around the billboard, and it cannot be overlooked. In August 2023, your Department wrote to Sinn Féin's Councillor Mathers. In November 2025, two further letters were written to the Sinn Féin office. You have mentioned your constituency office in Newry, and that address was written to: I believe that you are familiar with that. If you say that there is no Sinn Féin billboard, why did your Department write to your office over the past number of years? Was it incorrect to do so?

Ms Kimmins: That was also discussed in the debate. I am aware of the correspondence that was sent out from the local section office. It is not something that I signed off on or was aware of at the time. That was a decision that was taken in relation to a billboard that had a Sinn Féin logo on it. As I have said, on repeat, that is no longer there.

Mr Dunne: Was it illegal?

Ms Kimmins: We have had those conversations. The Department has assessed it and deemed it an illegal billboard. What I am saying to you is this: the correspondence was issued; the billboard has been removed.

Mr Dunne: OK. Minister, do you accept the principle around all of this? It is not about the text of the messaging. It is around the fact that your party is the largest party in the Government, in which you are the Minister who is responsible for planning, and it appears to many that there is an attitude of, "One rule for me and another for thee". Do you accept that point, Minister? On reflection and in hindsight, should you have acted quicker?

Ms Kimmins: I do not accept the suggestion that it is one rule for me and one rule for anybody else.

Mr Dunne: You can see why people see it that way.

Ms Kimmins: Let me finish. The Department took action, and it was dealt with. What was your second question, sorry?

Mr Dunne: My point was that the integrity of the planning system has been compromised. Do you accept that?

Ms Kimmins: As the member will be aware, planning is dealt with through councils. That is a matter for the council. You also talked about taking action —.

Mr Dunne: You have a key role in planning. You mentioned the planning improvement programme.

Ms Kimmins: We could talk about this all day. I do not think that this — one poster — is what people want to hear us talking about. I do not underestimate the strength of feeling that people may have on the issue —

Mr Dunne: It is the principle.

Ms Kimmins: — but there are mechanisms in place, and those protocols were followed by officials in the Department, as has been outlined and evidenced through the correspondence. That is the proper approach, and it should never be different, no matter the issue or where it is.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): A final question, Stephen.

Mr Dunne: Over the past year in particular, the impact of climate legislation has come to the fore. We have seen it with the A5, the Enniskillen bypass and some of the A1 junction improvement work, for example. Have you or your Department taken into account the impact of climate legislation on future infrastructure projects? In light of the impact that it is having and could have, is it time to set climate targets that are more affordable and realistic?

Ms Kimmins: As the member will know, the A5 hearing has been critical to how we move forward on a number of infrastructure projects. The issue is not relevant to just roads projects; people are looking at it across the board. It is critical that we get a successful outcome to the appeal. I am ensuring that we work very hard towards providing the strongest possible case. As I have outlined time and time again in the Assembly, and as the Committee knows, the case is ongoing. In fact, there is a hearing today, and we are working closely with DAERA colleagues on that.

Yes, the ruling has had an impact, but I feel that there are things that we can do to overcome that. I hope to see a positive outcome so that we can move ahead and get on with the delivery of all those schemes, particularly the A5, given the critical nature of that project and in light of what we have seen there in the past 48 hours.

Mr Dunne: OK. Thanks, Minister. Thanks, Declan.

Mr McHugh: Tá fáilte romhaibh uilig, a Aire agus Declan.

I say this in a tongue-in-cheek way, but I know, Minister, that the £430,000 that was allocated to the flood alleviation scheme in my home town of Castlederg was done to welcome me on to the Committee. [Laughter.]

On a more serious note, Minister, you have already alluded to the fact that another life has been lost on the A5, which is a road on which I travel daily. I express my deepest sympathy to the family of the deceased.

I know, Minister, that you are not in a position to make any comment on the legal case, because you are waiting on judgements, but I ask that you commit to and reiterate your support for the realisation of the project, which is vital to all of us who live in the north-west, in particular, but will be to the benefit of all of Ireland.

Ms Kimmins: Absolutely. Last June's ruling was extremely disappointing, but we — particularly the team that is involved — have been working night and day, including with DAERA. We have been doing that because we recognise just how crucial the project is for economic growth, connectivity, communities and all those very important things. The most important thing, however, is saving lives. I have met some of the families who have been impacted on, so I know the strength of feeling of people across the north-west and that stretch of the A5. We have also worked with our colleagues in the South and with the A5/N2 committee that has been set up across councils to take a cross-border approach to progressing the A5 project.

I reiterate in the strongest possible terms my commitment to seeing the delivery of the A5 as soon as possible. We should not be in this situation, which has occurred because of a number of objectors. The road should be delivered, and I will not rest until we get it over the line. As I have said to the Assembly, we are looking at contingency plans in case we do not get the outcome that we hope for in the courts.

Mr McHugh: Thank you, Minister. I will move on to another area. You have been able to unlock capacity for over 5,000 homes, which is welcome. Will you provide more detail on how much Northern Ireland Water has borrowed against its assets and how that impacts on its sustainability?

Ms Kimmins: Yes. The capital allocation for NI Water in the 2025-26 financial year was £370 million, £152 million of which went to its resource budget. That is over £0·5 billion of public money that is going to water and sewerage services and is almost 92% of what NI Water initially requested. That is not to underestimate the challenges, and I do not. We have worked closely with NI Water to find innovative ways of maximising its budget to continue to deliver for people. That amount represents the most public money that NI Water has received since it came into existence in 2007. I hope that that shows our commitment.

Declan will come in on your question about borrowing.

Mr McGeown: There is a loan arrangement, which goes back to 2007, in place for Northern Ireland Water. As we sit, NI Water has borrowed around £1 billion through DOF. Northern Ireland Water pays back the interest on that loan.

Mr McHugh: Thank you. Minister, can you speak to the importance of the all-island rail review and the recent announcement of its prioritisation?

Ms Kimmins: Absolutely. We have seen a significant appetite and huge demand for increased rail services that service our entire island. We have seen the success of the Dublin to Belfast Enterprise hourly services, and we continue to build on the momentum of that. I was really pleased to outline the prioritisation strategy for the future development of the rail network across the North, with plans for enhancement and electrification of the existing Belfast to Dublin line; reinstatement of the Lisburn to Antrim line and the Portadown to Armagh line; and development of a Portadown to Derry line. That all bodes very well for the future. As I said, we continue to work very closely with our counterparts in the South to make sure that we realise delivery and keep making progress, looking at what investment we can secure. It highlights the importance of agreeing a multi-year Budget. I have looked at what will be needed in that multi-year Budget and what my part will be in building on the progress.

Mr McHugh: I have a comment. Minister, I have no doubt whatsoever of your commitment to road and rail transport on the island in every respect. The Republic of Ireland has superior health outcomes and a superior education system, but I doubt very much that anyone would accuse the Ministers of Health or Education in the North of Ireland of being subversive, which was the implication of a statement that was made to you today. Thank you again, Minister.

Mr McMurray: Thank you, Minister. Good to see you. I start by reiterating our thanks to the DFI staff, certainly the staff on the ground. South Down has experienced many instances of flooding over the years, and the response from staff in DFI and the arm's-length bodies (ALBs) is always good. A lot of good work goes on — for example, the 20 mph speed limits — but, unfortunately, it is the way of the world that we concentrate on the things that are difficult. Just bear that in mind.

I spoke yesterday in the Chamber. Your colleague referenced me and Committee members as not scrutinising arm's-length bodies as well as we should. I take that in the round, and, unfortunately, you are the next person up, so we will have to do a bit more scrutinising here today. When it comes to NI Water, arm's-length body A comes in and says, "We need this amount of money to make this work". Arm's-length body B comes along and says, "We independently verify that it needs this amount of money for it to work". Arm's-length body C comes along and says, "We can't invest. The economy will be affected if this is not done". Then, often, body D — the Department — comes along and says, "We give NI Water all the money that it needs". Meanwhile, we see the infrastructure of NI Water deteriorate to the point that it has. We have touched on the economics, and I will come to the environment in a second. What are we to do? What is the issue? How do we progress this?

Ms Kimmins: One of the challenges, which I spoke to, is that we are not able to give NI Water everything that it asks for. We work very closely with NI Water, as we do with other Departments: for example, when we look at housing, we work with the housing supply strategy to find solutions. I talked about some of the examples where we have been able to achieve innovative solutions that will deliver, albeit maybe not to the level that we would hope for, and continue to make progress with reduced costs. I gave the Newry example, where £26 million will unlock capacity for 400 properties. We know that that is not a long-term solution. However, will it make sure that we can continue to build and progress? Absolutely, it will. We always have to encourage our arm's-length bodies to live within their budgets.

You talked about scrutiny of ALBs. You will know that, at the end of the last financial year, NI Water indicated that it was potentially going to overspend on its resource budget. We worked very closely with NI Water. We had numerous meetings and engagements to try to ensure that it could live within its budget. It got to the point where I initiated a forensic investigation. That may not have bore a huge amount of savings, but there were recommendations whereby we could have seen efficiencies. I, with my responsibility as Minister, was looking to ensure that the money that we were allocated was being spent in the right way and that NI Water's position was reflective of the reality.

We talk about the weather. Heavy rainfall has a massive impact on budgets for the like of NI Water, because it impacts on the capacity of its systems. I am sure that, over the past couple of weeks, all of you will have dealt with people who have been impacted on, particularly in the aftermath of storm Chandra, because the infrastructure has been at overcapacity and has caused flooding, sewerage issues and such things.

There are lots of things that present challenges: some are within our control, and some are outside of our control. I have a budget. We know that it is not enough to do what needs to be done. We have talked about roads and the budget that is required for roads. That is my entire capital budget, so I have to make difficult decisions. That requires working closely with the like of NI Water and saying, "How can we maximise what we have? How do we get the best out of what we have?". Yes, it will still fall short, and, yes, there will still be issues that cannot be addressed, but, with a majority-type view, we have to try to do as much as we can with what we have.

Mr McGeown: The Minister is right on that. Andrew, to clarify her point — I will not get into the A, B and Cs — Northern Ireland Water was set a figure by the Utility Regulator, but Northern Ireland Water would not have had the capacity to deliver that. At the start of the financial year, it came to us with its operating plan to say, "We can only deliver £405 million". We gave it £370 million: that is where the 90% comes from. It is Northern Ireland Water, not us, that is saying, "We don't have the capacity to deliver all that the Utility Regulator has asked us to do".

Mr McMurray: OK. Sticking with NI Water, I move on to the environment. The 'Independent Review of Environmental Governance' concluded that NI Water's statement of regulatory principles and intent (SORPI) arrangement had:

in our water infrastructure and incentivised NI Water to prioritise other areas where potential penalties are harsher. The review recommended:

The Minister has to set a clear direction in that regard. Will you support DAERA's efforts to help ensure that NI Water is no longer given a free pass to pollute?

Ms Kimmins: I have met the AERA Minister and looked at how we could do that in a way that reflects the reality. It is important that we adhere to our environmental responsibilities. That includes NI Water and its responsibilities. I welcome the Office for Environmental Protection (OEP) investigation. It is an important piece of work that will help us to move forward and, hopefully, find solutions to deal with the issues. It is also important that we are cognisant of the budgetary challenges in achieving that. There are no two ways of saying that. It is harder and harder for the like of NI Water to meet those requirements, but it has to strive to ensure that it does.

I have made clear to the AERA Minister my view on how we should move forward. I know that SORPI has to be removed — I do not dispute that — but we have to agree on how we will do that. The issue is that, if we increase fines and those impact on the overall budget, that will make it harder again to meet the requirements, if that makes sense. That is why I am looking at the three-pronged approach that I talk about. Regardless of what others have said today, I do not believe that one aspect of that is the solution. There is a cumulative impact, so it is about looking at different solutions. The SuDS Bill is one part of it; looking at developer contributions is another part; and the most important part is obtaining an adequate level of investment and continuing to work with Executive colleagues on it. Our waste water infrastructure underpins everything that we do across the Executive, such as achieving our housebuilding targets, the building of new healthcare facilities etc. There is an interest across the Executive in resolving this. It is not easy, but continuing that collaborative work will help us to make good progress.

Mr McMurray: Thank you, Minister. I appreciate all that, but we are standing on the cusp, and we can see what is going on in Lough Neagh and Belfast lough. With the greatest respect, how do you reconcile the environmental commitment to protect those places with the delay in removal of SORPI and NI Water's inability to fund waste water infrastructure to a point where it does not harm the environment?

Ms Kimmins: The SORPI arrangement falls under the remit of the AERA Minister, so any delay is not within my remit. However, there is work that we can do across Departments to tackle the issue and improve things. The issues are well rehearsed. When I spoke to the Chair at the start of the session, I said that we have seen an 85% rise in the costs during PC21: that is huge. Since PC21 was agreed and we set out what we wanted to do, the costs have almost doubled. Our budgets have not doubled, and our ability to meet the requirements has not dramatically changed. Therefore, that presents a challenge, and it is why we have had to look at what else we can do to ensure that we meet our environmental responsibilities.

You mentioned the issues at Lough Neagh and Belfast lough: those absolutely have to be addressed, and that will require innovative thinking unless we get the funding. A commitment was made in New Decade, New Approach, and that has not materialised in the way that we had hoped. Unless there is a massive uplift in the Executive's Budget, I cannot see me, any time soon, getting the money that we need to do all that we need to do. Does that mean that we sit on our hands? No, it does not. We have a good working relationship with the AERA Minister. He understands the situation that we are in, and I respect that he has a responsibility to adhere to the requirements. There is more work to do, and we will continue to do it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Andrew, that is your time up. Do you want to ask a yes/no question?

Mr McMurray: What do you say —?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I know your time is different.

Mr McMurray: I have a timer as well, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I know you have, but I have a timer over here, and your timer is running two and a half minutes behind mine.

Mr McMurray: What do you say to the farmers, Minister? Farmers send me pictures. When farmers see waste water going into water courses, they feel that they are being held to a different standard than NI Water is under SORPI. There is a real feeling of injustice. What do you say to the farmers?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Can you give a brief answer, Minister?

Ms Kimmins: There is a responsibility on all of us to take action. The responsibility for SORPI falls to the AERA Minister.

Mr McMurray: What about waste water and NI Water?

Ms Kimmins: I have outlined clearly the actions that we are taking to try to deal with that. We do not have everything available to us, and money is the key issue. I feel like I am operating with one hand tied behind my back in many cases, but I am not willing to just accept that. We constantly try to find other ways to deal with the issues, and that means working with everybody across the board.

Mr McMurray: OK. Thank you, Chair. Sorry.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): No. It is fine. Thank you, Andrew.

Mr Harvey: Minister, we have talked a lot about roads, and we have heard a lot about plans, strategies and road maps. The public just want roads that are in a fit state to drive on. We have to MOT our vehicles, and we could do with something like an MOT for our roads. We all pay for our road fund licence: I know that that money goes to England, but we still expect our roads to be in a fit state. Minister, you have been in post for a year. Can we turn the roads around in the next year so that people will look at them and say, "Wow. What a great job we have done in the past year"?

Ms Kimmins: I hope that we can, Harry. I have set out that we can start to see a real difference in the roads. I am not under any illusion that it can be turned around very quickly. I said that the roads have been an issue year-on-year, but we have taken action to find a way forward. I am not aware of any previous Minister having taken the different approach that we are trying to embed. I have set out clearly to officials what my priorities will be once we know our funding and budget. It is definitely not without its challenges.

You mentioned road tax. It is important to clarify that point, because it is raised with me all the time. Where does our road tax go?

It goes to Westminster, which is ultimately responsible for ensuring that it funds us adequately. It is not doing that; it has admitted that; and the Assembly has agreed that that is the case. It is incumbent on all of us to make the case to Westminster. We cannot continue to allow that from the British Government: we pay them our road taxes, but we do not get the return on that. That is what we see, and it is not unique to my Department; I am sure that members have colleagues in the Executive who also feel the strain.

There is a strong case to be made. The Finance Minister has been making that case to Treasury, and he continues to make it. We see significant overspends in Health and Education, and I do not underestimate the challenges there, but we have to wake up to why we are in that situation. We continually look at what efficiencies can be made and what innovative approaches we can take to deal with it, but we have to have adequate investment to put into our roads and other existing assets so that we can do more and ensure that what we do is to the standard that the public should expect.

Mr Harvey: Do we have the machinery, manpower and skills to do it?

Ms Kimmins: As I have said, one of the challenges is to do with our workforce: we have vacancies across the Department. We are looking at a new approach to recruitment, and I hope to see that start in, I think, March.

Mr McGeown: That is right.

Ms Kimmins: One of the first recruitment campaigns will kick off then. There will be a particular focus on industrial staff, who predominantly populate our roads teams, and that will be critical.

We have all heard people talking about "the DOE days", when, they say, they saw its people out more often. We are taking action to address that. Like any area of government, we see challenges in recruitment. That is not unique to DFI Roads or to my Department. We are always looking at other ways of attracting new staff and, most importantly, retaining staff at the Department. I talked about planning earlier, and that is another example.

Mr Harvey: You mentioned a record number of defects being reported. Does that mean a record number of claims?

Ms Kimmins: We have for many years, undoubtedly, seen an upward trend in compensation claims being recorded. A number of factors have contributed to that, including the deterioration of our roads and the changes in weather patterns. More people are aware that they can claim, which is also something for us to factor in.

Mr Harvey: Do we have any numbers to look at or examples of potholes associated with a particularly large number of claims?

Ms Kimmins: I do not think that we record it in that way.

Mr McGeown: The figures that we have are more global. As the Minister rightly said, the five-year average has been fairly constant, but it peaked in the past year, having increased in the past 12 months. We do not have figures for each pothole.

Mr Harvey: We are moving into spring, summer and autumn, which is a time when repairs can be done, meaning that, by the time winter comes, things should be levelled and sealed up. Is that your plan?

Ms Kimmins: That is where I would like to be. I mentioned front-loading the work, which I am keen to do. I do not know what my budget is at this stage, obviously. We have a draft Budget, and there will be challenges in that. We have initiated discussions in the Department to look at it in more detail to see how we can get ahead of that and plan for the year.

Mr Harvey: The public just want to get from A to B safely. You have been a great advocate for road safety, which is great. At present, roads are in a dangerous state; I know that you would admit that. What about line marking? There are lots of roads on which, as you come to a junction, the lines are not clear or have disappeared. Is addressing that part of your plan?

Ms Kimmins: That is part of the road maintenance work. I am aware of teams working across divisions: squads go into specific areas and do clusters of work. That is what, even as a constituency MLA, I have been hearing from staff for many years. I encourage everybody to report issues so that we are aware of them at the earliest possible stage. Those things are normally picked up at routine inspections.

Mr Harvey: Keeping people safe is the main thing.

I will move on to vesting land. What constitutes a reasonable time frame for payment? A lot of land adjacent to the A5 has been vested. Farmers are unable to access outbuildings or to use their land, and time is going on while that remains the case. I am asking about that because, as you know, the A24 Ballynahinch bypass is due to be constructed soon. Will payments be made within a reasonable time?

Ms Kimmins: We always strive to do that in the most reasonable time possible. You have given examples of where there is engagement between landowners and the Department, and Land and Property Services (LPS) is also involved because it is responsible for assessing the value of the land. I have found that, for various reasons, there can be delays. We are keen to improve that, because doing so enables progress on what we are trying to do, whether that is a road scheme or whatever else. We always strive to move at pace, but other factors sometimes impact on that.

I always encourage landowners to engage as fully as possible with the Department so that that can happen.

Mr Harvey: Where are we with the A24 Ballynahinch bypass?

Ms Kimmins: You were in attendance for the announcement last March.

Mr Harvey: Yes.

Ms Kimmins: We are moving forward with the development of the business case and the procurement for the scheme. The Department is meeting landowners, updating surveys and reviewing the relevant documents — as you know, time has passed since the project was initiated — and that will all contribute to the preparation of the procurement documentation. As I said, we have to consider the impact of the A5 ruling on the A24 scheme and all other schemes. I hope that we can make progress as quickly as possible.

Mr Harvey: Thank you, Minister.

Mr McNulty: Welcome to the Committee, Minister and Declan. Last week, I posted on Facebook, asking people to identify potholes in my constituency of Newry and Armagh. Overnight, 500 people responded, identifying 300 locations where there are major potholes. You drive the same roads as I do, so you know that they are dangerous. Some people are fearful of leaving their homes, given the size and depth of some of the potholes. We have discussed many times how the surface of the roads of Newry and south Armagh feels moonlike to drive on. There are potholes in every location: Keady, Clady, Newtown, Markethill, Crossmaglen, Mullaghbawn, Lislea, Newry city and Armagh city. You will agree, Minister, that the roads are in a dangerously dire state.

In your response to a question for written answer that I submitted, you said that there were 6,281 potholes in the Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council and Newry, Mourne and Down District Council areas and, in total, 18,000 potholes across the North. Worryingly, that means that your constituency sits in the middle of council areas where more than a third of the potholes in the North are located. Can you see how that does not necessarily reflect positively on you?

Ms Kimmins: We represent the same constituency, and my constituency office gets the same reports as yours does. The issues that everyone has outlined today are reflected across the North. Your former colleague, who was previously the Infrastructure Minister, had the same issues, which were documented in the media over the years. The challenges remain the same; I have set out what I am trying to do to deal with them.

We cannot ignore the fact that the weather has made it difficult for teams to repair potholes to the required standard and that that has had an impact. That is not to take away from the seriousness of the issue. The demand on our divisions to deal with the defects is hugely challenging. We have a limited number of staff and a limited budget, which is why I have been continually trying to find ways to increase that budget. I referenced the £2·5 million that, as I announced yesterday, the Department was able to reallocate.

The scale of the problem is reflected in the allocation to our southern division, which received £3·3 million of the original £7·85 million. I am sure that you have noticed, particularly in Newry, that some of the schemes have been completed. Those schemes would not have been able to happen had we not got additional investment, so I am delighted to be able to move that work on. That is not to take away from the scale of the challenge that remains, and we work continually on that. Reporting is so important because it enables teams to identify the highest-priority defects and get to them as quickly as possible. As you said, however, and as we all know, the number of defects is particularly high. Teams are working through them as quickly as possible.

Mr McNulty: Minister, 500 respondents to my social media post identified where potholes were located. I have written to you about that: will you commit to responding with a timeline for when those will be repaired? The list of locations will have to be updated, because, as every day goes by, I get more reports — a deluge of reports — about potholes that are causing disturbance and danger to drivers.

It is positive that you mentioned road safety as a priority of yours. Where are you on legislating for e-scooters?

Ms Kimmins: There is legislation on e-scooters. It is illegal to use e-scooters on our roads, so that is already in place.

Mr McNulty: Have you identified any safety concerns in relation to e-scooters?

Ms Kimmins: There is growing concern about the use of e-scooters on public roads, but the fact is that it is illegal to use them on public roads.

Mr McNulty: Are you aware of any health and safety issues at Belfast Grand Central station, as reported by certain members of staff?

Ms Kimmins: Not specifically. That is an operational matter for Translink, so issues may have been reported to Translink but not directly to me.

Mr McNulty: OK.

Where we are on waste water infrastructure is obviously a major impediment and a barrier to housing. We are in a housing crisis; meanwhile, we cannot build houses. Last year, 36,000 new homes were built in the South, but, in the North, a mere 1,400 houses were built. Pro rata, there was one house built for every 146 people in the South, but one house was built for every 1,347 people in the North. The South has 25 times the number of houses being built in the North. It is great to hear your Sinn Féin colleagues on the Committee praising the Irish Government. Per capita, nine times more houses were built in the South than in the North.

You have introduced your three-pronged approach. Have you talked to the construction industry and to developers about what positive impact that approach will have and how successful it will be, when it hits the ground, in allowing progress to be made on building homes and on economic development, which is really important?

Ms Kimmins: I will probably need to cross-reference some of those figures. The figures that I have show that, by the end of September last year, 4,211 new dwellings had been completed and there were 5,549 new starts. We are building houses. Your point, that we are not able to build houses, is inaccurate. Yes, there are challenges — we have outlined them clearly here — but we are building houses, and we continue to find ways to make sure that we keep that progress going.

I regularly engage with the sector. I will attend a CEF event in a couple of weeks, and we engage with it extensively, as we do with many sectors involved in construction across the board. I always welcome advice and ideas about how we can work collaboratively to tackle the issues. The three-pronged approach is about trying to find solutions. I have said repeatedly that it is not a silver bullet. It will not solve every problem that we have, but will it enable progress? Absolutely, it will. I hope that the Committee can continue to work with me to ensure that we keep progressing.

Mr McNulty: It is brilliant that you welcome ideas. One brilliant idea from Paschal Taggart and Ger Perdissat is the 'Newry Next' proposal to build 6,000 new homes in the Newry-Banbridge corridor, which would first provide homes for local people and then increase Newry's capacity to be a commuter town for Belfast and Dublin, which it already is, organically. I have asked you this previously: what resource has your Department provided to scope out that proposal properly? It is, in essence, a plan on a plate for your Executive.

Ms Kimmins: That is your opinion. We are looking at the report, and it is important that we do so properly, so that we can analyse exactly what it would mean. You made reference to Newry being a commuter town.

My understanding of a commuter town is this: a place where people from other areas come to live, enabling them to travel to work. For Newry, that means people coming from the South of Ireland because they cannot afford to buy a house in the South but can buy one in the North more cheaply and travel back and forth.

Mr McNulty: Minister —.

Ms Kimmins: That is, essentially, what the report says. That does not suggest that it focuses primarily on the need of people who live locally to secure a house. However, there are potential benefits, so we are looking at the report to see exactly what it would mean for the future.

Mr McNulty: I am disappointed that you are trying to pooh-pooh an idea that is about creating new homes for Newry people —.

Ms Kimmins: I am not doing that: do not misinterpret me. What I am saying is that I have a responsibility to look at it. Instead of looking at a headline and saying that it is brilliant for Newry, I have to ensure that what we do is good for the people who live in those areas and to take a strategic view on whether it is good for the whole of society. There will always be pros and cons, and we have to look closely at those to ensure that we do things for the right reasons.

Mr McNulty: My pure ambition is to provide houses for Newry people first —

Ms Kimmins: And I need to understand whether the report does that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Minister, let him finish his question.

Mr McNulty: — to allow Newry and the surrounding areas to thrive.

Rail transport is fantastic, and the all-island rail review has been wonderfully positive in bringing about the 40% uplift in passengers that you mentioned. That is to your credit; you deserve enormous praise for that. It was the previous SDLP Minister for Infrastructure who launched the all-island rail review with her counterpart in the South. The 40% uplift has made the service a victim of its own success; I hope that you are scoping out the potential for further parking provision at Newry train station.

A little side issue that I raise on behalf of my four-year-old son is that, since Brexit, the Steam Enterprise train has not come North. Can you sort that out, please? We want to see the steam train again.

Ms Kimmins: It is not my steam train [Laughter.]

I have answered that question before.

I will go back to the point about the hourly service. It is a huge success. Anybody who commutes, goes to matches or just goes for a day out in Dublin or Belfast will know that it can be hard to get a seat. That is why progress on the Enterprise fleet replacement will be critical. That will ensure greater capacity on trains, as well as upgrading our train set.

Lots of really good things are happening, and we need to maintain that momentum. Money is key, but I want to ensure that we prioritise that.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is great. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Justin. I gave you a bit of extra time, Justin. I am trying to be fair and equitable to everybody. Minister, you are now 12 minutes over time, but one of your colleagues has the final questions.

Ms Kimmins: Make it quick, Cathal.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I hope that they are tough and incisive ones, Cathal.

Mr Boylan: I will run through them really quickly. I thank the member for raising Newry and Armagh matters; a number of us have been contacted about the state of the roads. Minister, in all my time, there has never been a "Minister for Solutions" in the Assembly — that is not one of the Ministries — but thank you for providing some of the answers today.

The Chair raised an interesting issue that we all hear about, which is young people trying to get on the property ladder. A number of factors are involved in that. I will talk about the planning improvement programme and the planning process from DFI's point of view: the success of the programme so far and what more you can do to move that along. I am conscious of the responsibility of the local authority in that, and it is about how we marry all that up. All that we can do is make the Department work; our role is to scrutinise the Department's planning responsibilities. Will you talk about the planning improvement programme and how we move that forward?

Ms Kimmins: As I said earlier, a huge amount of work has been done, and I give credit to our officials and to councils for their work not only to identify the challenges but to find the solutions. We have introduced a validation checklist that, we hear from initial feedback, has been working well. It is about ensuring that we front-load planning so that we streamline the process for people going through it. There have been challenges, delays and hold-ups in the system, and that is a really positive way of ensuring that we do that.

I talked earlier about the trainee programme. That is a good way of getting more people into work in our planning system. As they go through their training, they upskill and get an opportunity to work in the system and embed themselves in it.

We are also looking at policy work and legislative changes. There are some really good opportunities, but it is important to recognise the importance of planning. We have dedicated a work programme to that because we know that it is really important.

Devolving planning to councils in 2015 was a huge step. Whilst there have been challenges and difficulties, it has been largely positive; we do not always hear about the positives. We have more work to do, and the planning improvement programme is a bit of a reset and a review to look at what we do, what the issues are and how to address them. That is where we are at.

Mr Boylan: I have some sympathy with you on the issue of housing demand. Responsibility for social housing and all those things goes across DFC. There is certainly an issue for Infrastructure in sewerage connection — we hear that every day — but that is just one part of it, albeit an important one that you are engaging on with Executive colleagues. You have spoken in the Chamber a number of times recently about roads issues. My question is about the road maintenance strategy: where you are now, what you hope to achieve and whether there is a timeline for that. Will you update us on that?

Ms Kimmins: The consultation closed only at the end of January, and the feedback was largely positive. I am waiting on the report, which members will also receive. Officials are looking at the feedback in greater detail, and we will then publish a report. We aim to finalise the strategy fairly soon. We need to get it in place to enable us to make budgetary decisions, which will be part of the process. It augurs well for the future. It is a different approach. It takes into account the challenges of the past 10 years in particular and finds ways of improving and enhancing the road network within the available budget. There will be benefits to that, but close working with the Committee will be required to move that forward.

Mr Boylan: I turn to another subject, which is one that is close to your heart. You visited your local community transport network group. We recognise the group's work, which is challenging at times. How can we support community transport more, and what role do you see for it?

Ms Kimmins: I was pleased to be able to fully fund the community transport network this year with a 26% increase in its funding to £5·54 million across all providers. I have been out with many providers, including in my area of Newry and Mourne and in Armagh on a number of occasions, so I see at first hand the impact of the service.

I have said time and again that, at the heart of everything that we do, not just in government in general but in my role at Infrastructure, is people. When I am making decisions, the impact on people and how we can improve their lives has to be at the front of my mind. Community transport is a shining example of how we have been able to do that. It provides people with independence, connection and, particularly in rural areas, it enables them to get out and do things that they might not otherwise have been able to do. Certainly, that is what I hear from the people whom I have met. That has a knock-on impact on other areas of government, given the effect on people's health, for example. If people are able to get out, socialise and live a fuller life, their physical and mental health benefit.

Not everything that we do is about building roads and other physical infrastructure; it is about how that impacts on people. Community transport provides a good example of what, for a relatively small investment, we can do. I look forward to continuing that and to working closely with community transport.

Mr Boylan: Finally — this is on behalf of the Committee — are you happy with the timelines for your legislative framework, given that there only 12 months of the mandate left?

Ms Kimmins: The Committee is due to hear more evidence on the Water, Sustainable Drainage and Flood Management Bill on 18 March. I hope that that will progress well. I mentioned the ports Bill that I hope to introduce in the Assembly shortly. We are working through secondary legislation. I mentioned the Reservoirs Act, and I hope that engagement with officials and the information that we provided will help the Committee with its deliberations, because I cannot overstate how critical that is. It is a public safety issue, so it is important that we move it along, as well as working in other areas, such as school bus safety, and on the other legislation that we are taking forward. We will continue to keep the Committee updated on all that and to work closely with it. We value your input.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you, Cathal, and well done for coming in under time.

I will thank you in a second, Minister, but I have a final question for you — this is like Chair's privilege. I will quote back to you something that you said about the A5. You said that your Department has contingencies in case you lose the appeal. In broad-brush terms, what contingencies is your Department considering?

Ms Kimmins: It is not right to go into detail on that. From the outset, I have said that we will continue to look at what other options are available to us. If we were to be unsuccessful at appeal, we would have to ensure that the road progresses. I have been on record as saying that and remain committed to doing it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): How about talking in broad-brush terms? You referred to the contingencies.

Ms Kimmins: A lot of work is continuing on all those things. At the minute, the focus is on the appeal, and I hope that we can get a successful outcome to that. It is important, however, that we look at other options to ensure that we can get the road delivered and that no more lives are lost, particularly given what we have seen over the past 48 hours.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It sounds like you are teasing me, Minister, but I will leave it there on the question of the contingencies —

Ms Kimmins: I am not saying anything that I have not said before.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): — and what might happen in future.

Thank you so much for coming today, Minister, and for spending 20 minutes longer than planned with the Committee. I certainly did the best that I could from the Chair to make sure that everybody got a fair hearing and to ask questions. It would be great if you could come back, maybe in three weeks' time, when we will have another battery of questions for you.

Ms Kimmins: No bother; we will have 10 debates in the meantime. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): It is of real value to see Ministers at Committee. This is what we do every week, and you run a Department every week. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you for coming.

Ms Kimmins: Thank you very much, everybody.