Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): We are joined by Chris Quinn, the Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY); Laura McFall, participation officer from the commissioner's office; and Rhea Donnell and Astrid Knox, who are representatives from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People's Youth Panel. Rhea and Astrid are familiar to the Committee from their campaign on being able to wear trousers at school and the evidence that they gave to the Committee. You are all welcome, particularly Rhea and Astrid. Thank you both for giving more of your time to help us to reflect on issues to do with school uniform. I am sure that you probably thought that you would not need to come back and do this, but here you are, and we look forward to hearing from you.

I will hand over to the witnesses. Chris, will you start? You will have 10 minutes for any opening remarks or presentation, and then we will move to questions from members. We will aim to keep to around five minutes per enquiry, and I ask members and witnesses to keep those timings in mind as we go through questions and answers. Over to you, Chris.

Mr Chris Quinn (Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People): Thank you. I will keep my remarks as brief as possible. Thank you, Committee Chair and members, for having me here today. I feel as though I have become a regular fixture at the Committee, but I welcome it: education is such a big part of what we do in my office.

You may remember that I was here to discuss the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill, and I am sure that you will remember these two inspirational young people, with whom I am proud to be sitting today. In a few moments, they will tell you about their lived experiences of the topic that we are here to discuss. By way of background, I note that NICCY provided a response to the call for evidence for the School Uniforms Bill, in which we covered much to do with this topic. We also made a submission to the Committee's survey on this proposed Bill, supporting the proposal.

We are here today to discuss more than just girls wearing skirts — sorry, trousers. [Laughter.]

I beg your pardon. Girls wear trousers all the time. Boys wear trousers all the time. Trousers are part of our everyday discussions on what we wear, day in and day out. Importantly, as adults, we have a choice, which children do not always have in school. To be honest, I find it somewhat peculiar that, where dress codes exist outside school — for example, here in the Assembly, in the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) and in the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) — they are, by and large, gender neutral, but that that is not the case for children in school. It is not the case for girls who want to do cartwheels at break time or to feel comfortable during cold, wet winters. Indeed, that is what Rhea and Astrid said in their letter to me: that they wanted to do cartwheels at lunchtime.

This is about equity, equality, dignity and the fundamental rights of every pupil and student in Northern Ireland. Despite the new guidance and legislation that has just come into place, school uniform policies still do not allow choice for all pupils. For too long, many schools' uniform policies seem to have been led somewhat by so-called traditionalist views and ideas of what children and young people should look like in school. That has seemingly been prioritised over a child's comfort, needs and agency. That is reflected in the views of children and young people.

Girls on our youth panel have told us about the stigma that they feel when they wear trousers, and that information was provided to the Committee in our previous submission and our response to the survey. There continues to be negative judgement associated with girls wearing trousers in school. That comes not just from their peers; there seems to be a stigma from some adults, teachers and school staff, which girls and young women have fed back to us. Young people have identified increased risks of bullying behaviour, which is often homophobic in nature, and the impact of appearing to stand out. When those matters are addressed in policy change in schools, we can ensure that young people have the right to wear school trousers as part of their school uniform.

As the Committee heard at the previous session on the matter, and throughout its call for evidence for the School Uniforms Bill, children and young people have talked about aspects of uniform that make it difficult to walk or cycle to school, and, sometimes, to travel on public transport. Having to wear a skirt hinders their ability to cycle or walk greater distances or to play — to do handstands and cartwheels at playtime. Young women feel uncomfortable when they are on their period, too.

By ensuring that girls having the choice to wear trousers in school is in law, we are not changing a dress code but upholding international rights standards under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). Children and young people in Northern Ireland are rights holders, and adults are duty bearers who are responsible for upholding, promoting and fulfilling those rights. That includes all of us in the room as members of society, members of the Committee and Members of the Assembly. In a few moments, Astrid and Rhea will talk to you more about rights — the right to play, the right to be heard and the right to freedom of expression — but I will highlight article 2 of the UNCRC, which states that no child should be treated differently or disadvantaged based on their gender. That is a fundamental part of today's discussion.

I support the Committee's proposed intention to put in statute the right to wear trousers. That would be a move towards a more inclusive school environment and away from outdated policy that serves little purpose. It may also help with the original purpose of the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Act 2026, which is to help to address the sometimes extortionate expense of school uniforms, which cripples so many families.

I will pause there and pass to Astrid and Rhea.

Ms Astrid Knox (Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People Youth Panel): Thank you for having us before the Committee again to talk about the importance of girls being allowed to wear trousers in school. We have campaigned for over a year now, and the experience of girls has not changed. We are here to ask for your help to ensure that girls can be safe and comfortable during the school day and that they can take part in play and active travel on the way to school and at break time.

Ms Rhea Donnell (Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People Youth Panel): As many of you know, we had a successful campaign in our primary school to allow girls to wear trousers if they chose to do so. That made a difference for many girls, but way too many are still not listened to when they give very valid reasons why they want to wear trousers. Astrid and I are now in a grammar school and have to wear skirts that are thin, impractical and expensive. They are not suitable for Northern Ireland's weather and walks up the hill in the wind. This is not just about us, however: we want to make sure that all girls are allowed to wear trousers, if that makes them more comfortable and active, so that we can all just get on with our educational activities.

Ms Knox: We know that some of you think that it should be up to individual schools to devise their uniform policies. However, that leads to difference across schools and even within schools, with different teachers having different opinions. We want to make sure that all girls can enjoy their rights.

Ms Donnell: Article 3 of the UNCRC is about acting in the best interests of the child. Adults should always do what is best for us as children. That means that our ability to play, focus on education and experience equality should be important to schools and to the Education Committee.

Ms Knox: Article 5 is about family guidance as children develop. Our parents support our decision to wear trousers to school, and our teachers and parents guide us in using our voices.

Ms Donnell: Article 12 is about having respect for children's views. We feel that our concerns have, at times, been dismissed or washed over. We have not been given any proper reasons why we have to wear skirts, but we have plenty of reasons why we should not. Adults should not only listen to us but take our views seriously and use those views in decision-making.

Ms Knox: Article 16 is about the protection of privacy. Wearing a skirt, even with shorts underneath, can be uncomfortable, and it can be embarrassing if your skirt blows up. Having to wear tight leggings in PE makes some of us feel uncomfortable. We do not know why we cannot wear jogging bottoms, as the boys do. Jogging bottoms make us feel more comfortable. As girls grow, changes in our bodies make our privacy even more important.

Ms Donnell: Article 23 covers the rights of children with disabilities. We want to make sure that all children with disabilities, or even short-term health issues, can easily make the choice to wear trousers, if doing so is easier for them.

Ms Knox: Article 28 is on access to education. We know lots of girls who are distracted by the feeling of their uniform. That stops them being able to focus and learn.

Ms Donnell: Article 29 is about the aims of education, which include more than our tests. Being comfortable would allow us to explore our talents. We are not alone in thinking that. Camogie players are clear that wearing shorts would make their sport easier.

Ms Knox: Article 31 is about rest, play, culture and arts. We want to be able to play and dance freely at break times without our skirts going up. We should also be able to travel easily to school by bike or walking and not be worried about getting cold or our skirts getting caught in the bike. A lead academic's research even tells us that skirts restrict movement and girls' health. We have provided a letter of support from her. We have also been asked to write about this issue for her blog and campaign group.

Ms Donnell: Article 42 states that everyone should know about children's rights. We ask that the Committee make sure that the people who are involved in making this decision in the Assembly know why it is a children's rights issue and that schools know that children's rights should be a key factor in all decisions that are made about us.

Ms Knox: The UNCRC Committee talked to children and young people about how climate change impacts on their rights. We know that our climate is changing. We will probably have more wet and windy winters, and we need to make sure that we can make choices about our clothes.

Ms Donnell: Girls and young women want to see the change that we are proposing. Experts support our campaign; the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People, Chris Quinn, supports our campaign; and Dr Mairead Ryan, the lead researcher on the impact of uniforms on children's health, supports our campaign. She has shown that girls' activity levels go down if they are made to wear skirts. As one girl recently told the BBC, having the option for girls to wear trousers should be a "no-brainer". Will you please make sure that all girls can feel comfortable, safe and active as they go to school?

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. That was a fantastic presentation. Thank you for your evidence. I will make a couple of comments to start with. It is never a great starting point, in life, to do something because it is what has always been done, yet it seems that that is where we are with a lot of schools. That is never a good starting point for making policy. Policy needs to be rational — there need to be clear reasons for it. That is, perhaps, the first time that what you have set out has been clearly articulated in that way: there are lots of reasons why girls should not be compelled to wear skirts, which you have so clearly articulated, and no reasons, that we can understand, why they should be required to wear them. That makes the policy feel irrational and raises the question of why the issue was not dealt with in the original legislation. That is why we are where we are. I wanted to begin by making that aside — that is my view on the issue.

Chris, at the start, you referenced the campaign that Rhea and Astrid ran on the issue. Having gone through the experience of running the campaign to secure the rights to wear trousers in primary schools, will you reflect on some of the comments that the Minister has made when questioned on why he did not include the option of wearing trousers for all pupils in his original legislation? He has suggested that his legislation has, in some way, enhanced girls' ability to campaign on the issue. What is your response to that? Is giving people the right to campaign the right approach, or do you think that something more should be done?

Ms Donnell: It probably should have gone through the first time, because we have been trying so hard for so long. We have been doing it for so long that it should have gone through.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Should it be up to pupils to campaign on it, or should those with the power to make changes in our law deliver it?

Ms Donnell: The pupils have to wear the clothes, so they should definitely be given the choice.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): In your presentation, you began to reference this but did not go into much detail. There may have been a suggestion that the issue comes down to the schools having discretion, with schools being able to say, "OK, if you want to wear trousers, you can come and ask us, and we may alter our policy". When a special case or exception is made for a pupil, because it is something that they have to seek permission for, rather than simply being allowed to wear trousers, what is the impact on that pupil?

Ms Donnell: It takes extra time that should not be needed. They should just have the choice to wear trousers or a skirt if doing so makes them more comfortable.

Ms Laura McFall (Office of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People): Some of the other children and young people to whom we have spoken feel that having to ask for a special case singles them out. It then becomes a bigger issue than it needs to be, rather than being about just having that broader choice of what to wear. That concern was expressed, for example, by girls who were campaigning to be allowed to wear trousers during menstruation, if that made them feel more comfortable: the concern is that doing so could single them out and force them to disclose something private when they should not need to.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I ask Chris or Laura to answer my first question, which was on the argument put forward by the Minister that his legislation has enhanced the right to campaign on the issue and that girls should be pleased that they now have the opportunity to have their voices heard on that. Is that an appropriate policy intervention in this space?

Mr Quinn: My overall observation is that we now have a piece of guidance. Whilst there are positive things in that guidance, guidance is just guidance. I have questions around how some of those things are enforceable. Even as I looked over the guidance again today, I saw lots of grey areas. I welcome the fact that the guidance mentions the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and I welcome the fact that pupil voices are in there, but, as Astrid and Rhea alluded to, guidance does not mandate action. We can talk to pupils about what they view as being a suitable uniform, but that does not compel the "school managers" — those are the words used in the guidance, and there is a wee bit of a grey area there, too. Who is the school manager? Is it the board of governors? Is it the head teacher? I have probably gone off topic. In summary, the guidance could be stronger.

Ms McFall: To reiterate what the girls said in their presentation, they have been campaigning for it for over a year. They just want to get on with their education and other activities, and they want that for other girls as well. Is that fair to say?

Ms Donnell: Yes.

Ms McFall: People should know about children's rights. As duty bearers, we should know the right thing to do. In public spaces, which is what schools are, being that they are publicly funded, we should be allowed to mandate that children have that option.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. I will bring in the Deputy Chair.

Mr Sheehan: Thanks, Rhea and Astrid, for your evidence today and the previous time that you were at the Committee. You gave a long list of reasons why girls should have the right to wear trousers. Can you think of any reason why they should not have that right?

Ms Donnell: The only reason that we have heard is that skirts look tidier than trousers, but boys wear trousers and they look tidy enough, so why can't we?

Mr Sheehan: I agree with you on that and all the evidence that you gave. The reason that we are bringing this Bill forward is that the Minister's School Uniforms Act does not go far enough. There are other flaws and weaknesses in that legislation that we would like to address, but it is complex, and there is only a short time left before the end of the mandate. It takes a long time for legislation to pass through the Assembly. I will give you an example of that. On the first day that the Assembly returned, Danny and I each lodged a private Member's Bill with the Bill Office. It was only yesterday that those Bills were introduced on the Floor in the Assembly. There was no delay on our part: we did everything as quickly as we could, but it took two years for the Bills to be introduced. That is why we are not bringing forward a more complex, wide-ranging Bill and instead said, "Let's pick out one thing and focus on it". That one thing is giving girls the right to wear trousers. I hope that we get the legislation finished before the end of the mandate, and I hope that you all get the right to wear trousers. I have no other questions. Thank you very much.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): If we get the Bill over the line, both of you will deserve a huge amount of credit for the public attention that you have brought to the issue. However, I maintain that it should not fall to young people to campaign for this sort of change to be delivered when it can be delivered so straightforwardly.

Mrs Mason: Thank you very much. You were so good the first time you were here that we had to have you back again. I feel that I should be asking you two for a selfie, because I have seen you everywhere.

I have a couple of things to say. Pat mentioned his and Danny's Bills. On that first day of the Assembly's return, I wanted to bring forward a private Member's Bill on the issue of school uniforms, and I know that the Chair was the same. It is therefore very annoying for me that I am not sitting here with a piece of legislation that could have made a difference; if I was, we would not have to be doing this. Girls, you said that you had spent a year doing this, and that that is extra time that should not have been needed. You should have been able to be enjoying school and taking part in your education. It is the same for us: it is annoying that we have to sit here and do this when we should be looking at other legislation, but we have no choice.

You had the confidence to go to your principal and fight in your school, saying, "This is what we want. This is what we think is right". That was at primary school. You are now in post-primary, at a grammar school. When you look at the other pupils in your class, do you think that they would have the confidence that you had to go to the principal, especially at secondary school, or to a group of five or six adults on the board of governors, and say, "No, we should be able to wear trousers"? Do you think that they would always win that battle?

Ms Donnell: I hope that they would have the confidence to do that, because, if we do not do that, we will never get what we need.

Mrs Mason: Do you think that they should have to do that?

Ms Donnell: No.

Mrs Mason: I do not think so either. It should be a choice. I have no other questions.

Mr Quinn: I will come in on the back of your question, Cathy. It is an important question. Astrid and Rhea are at a young age. I said, yesterday, that they were 13: I had them older than they are. I have a 12-year-old son. He would never have the confidence to sit in this Committee room or to have that conversation with his teachers. We need to recognise that Astrid and Rhea have broken the mould. They have support. Their parents are sitting behind us, in the Public Gallery, and they have support from children's rights defenders, who are also in the Gallery and who have encouraged and supported their campaign. That is important, but not all children have those things. I met a young person, today, who was a school refuser from second year because they were bullied. We also hear accounts of young women being bullied and stigmatised for wearing trousers or for not being able to afford a particular uniform. Lots of children do not have the capacity. That is not to take away from what you have done, Astrid and Rhea: you have done a great job.

Ms Donnell: Thanks.

Mrs Mason: You have; well done.

Mr Baker: Thank you. You have had a great campaign: that is why we are back doing this. You have put what we need to do out front. We did not get the Bill that we wanted. As a new MLA, I find that frustrating. I remember the night that I heard that the amendments had not been accepted: it was a Friday night, and I think that I paced around my estate about 100 times in pure anger, because I knew that the Bill was missing a lot and could have changed people's lives.

I know that you are not here about this, but is there anything else that you would have liked included in the Bill?

Mr Quinn: I will help you, Astrid and Rhea. I am sure that you remember that there were lots of things in the Bill when we were here previously. Your campaign was very much about your right to wear trousers. One of the things that we discussed a lot as adults, and I what I heard a lot, as commissioner, was the importance of comfort, cost and flexibility.

While I give the girls a chance to think, I will give my answer: cost. We live in a society where one in four children live in poverty. I speak a lot with parents, grandparents and carers who struggle to make ends meet. The cost of living is going through the roof. There is now a war in the Middle East, and we see fuel prices increase. I would like to have seen more done on cost.

Mr Baker: Sorry for putting you on the spot — you are here about trousers. However, I asked that question because, just as I was coming in, a parent sent me a message — I showed it to Cathy — saying, "This has just landed from my school. They're changing their PE kit. I thought this was all sorted out. There's £100 I have to drop, which I don't have". There you go. That shows that, as you said, guidelines are just guidelines.

Comfort is an important factor due to weather, for instance, and the need for a coat, gloves, scarf and all of that. I do not know what school you go to, but it should not be on you to have to campaign again and again. Maybe I could ask a favour of you, if you are going to do another campaign, because I hope that this one will be successful and that we get this done.

Young people should always be listened to and not talked down to, as seems to happen a lot. I do not want to go completely off topic, but there are to be changes to the exams that you sit in a couple of years' time, with the scrapping of AS levels and reduced coursework. I am not asking you to comment on that, but if you want to go back into your wee groups, please campaign on that. Will you, please? [Laughter.]

Mr Quinn: Do you have anything to add about things that you want to see? I spoke over you.

Ms Donnell: I agree with you about the cost. It is far too high.

Mr Quinn: When we were preparing for this, the other night, you were wearing neat and tidy school-branded sports gear — leggings and half-zips. That spoke to comfort and dignity.

Mr Baker: I like to wear that every day. There you go: comfort. Thank you so much.

Mrs Guy: Thanks, everybody on the panel, for coming to see us again. Chris, you are becoming a fixture. To build on what Danny said, I hope that you do not feel that being here today reflects that your campaign has failed in any way. If anything, it has succeeded. The evidence that you, and others, gave was so compelling that we felt that we had to take it forward and legislate for it. You have done an amazing job. Thank you for being so compelling and articulate.

I have thought about the reasons why this is not happening. On one end of the spectrum, it feels hostile not to do it, and, on the other, it feels weird. I think that "weird" is the word that we settled on when you were here previously. Why would you not let girls wear trousers? Have you come up with any reasons why the Minister will not do this? From what I can tell, all of us here have been persuaded; there seems to be agreement in the Assembly; and there seems be agreement from the public, going by the feedback. Why do you think the Minister will not do it? Have you come up with any good reasons?

Ms Donnell: I am not 100% sure why we have not got it through yet.

Mr Quinn: Would you feel safe saying what you said to me on the steps at the front when we were talking about why it has not been done? Can you remember? We were just chatting out in the front, and I think that it was you who said that you did not understand why and just to get it done. I cannot remember your exact words, but we were thinking along the same lines as to what the barriers are and let us consider them. What could be the reasons for not doing it? From my recollection of our conversations, your frustration was that we just have not done it yet. However, your question is a valid one.

As commissioner, I would love to understand the barriers better and reassure people. We hear about tradition and that some uniforms look beautiful; they look really nice. However, choice and comfort are a big thing for me. Personally, I do not know for sure what the barriers are, but I would like to understand them more.

Mrs Guy: You have been given a reason, but I am not sure that it really explains the barriers sufficiently or why you could not just do it when it does not even require legislation: just write it into the guidance.

Chris, I have a question for you. If we cannot legislate, for whatever reason, say, if we run out of time — you have mentioned that, in your view, it is a breach of rights — is there anything more that you can do in that context to compel or persuade or apply pressure to get it done?

Mr Quinn: I sit in a privileged position. The duties and powers of my office enable me to do certain things: I talk to young people about their rights being their superpowers. I suppose that, in some ways, I have superpowers too, but those powers include providing advice to government and analysing law and practice. I can advise, but I do not think that I can compel. I will continue to advise government on all the issues.

We need to move on more child's rights-compliant policy-making. I advocate strongly making child's rights impact assessments mandatory. That came out across the UK with the COVID inquiry. There are steps that we can take to make all our laws and policies child's rights compliant. To answer your question, I will continue to advise on the matter if we do not get the legislative change that we need.

Mrs Guy: Thank you.

Mr Brooks: I do not have a question. We have been through the issues that relate to school uniforms, if not today, when you were here previously. I said then, as I say now, that I congratulate you on your campaign, because it takes confidence to do anything that you believe in, to step up and not just advocate it in your schools. I was politically interested at a young age and got involved in things later, but I would not have had the confidence at your age to have appeared twice before a Committee, as you have. I congratulate you on that. Whatever issue you are campaigning on, it is something to be respected.

I am one of those who have consistently taken the position that you have pre-emptively discussed in your presentation, and that is to acknowledge that we take a slightly more nuanced position. We do not oppose the legislation. I understand that there is disagreement on it, but I hope you understand that it has been a consistent position of our party to respect the independence of schools on their ethos, decision-making and the rights of boards of governors to make decisions. I understand that you take a different view, and that is OK. It is right to put that on record.

I do not speak for the Department or the Minister; he can articulate for himself. However, my feeling is that not everything should be legislated for in primary legislation and schools should not be dictated to across the board. There have always been different views on this and every other issue. I understand that this issue seems simple: why can we not just get on with it? I understand that: it is one of the things that there is probably more support for than there is for other issues. That is just to outline and articulate our position.

Well done for articulating your view again today. I suspect that your campaign may well succeed in the end, regardless of our position. As I say, we do not oppose it; we are just taking a slightly more nuanced position. Thank you, and thank you, Chair.

Ms McFall: We understand that your position is that schools should have that freedom. However, from other young people to whom I have spoken, we know that there is a lack of clarity about the mandate of boards of governors regarding their duty to deliver on children's rights. As we know, all government has a duty to deliver on children's rights, but it is unclear whether that is the case for boards of governors. This could be an instance where we step in to protect children's rights completely.

Mr Brooks: That is understood. We know that there are sometimes competing narratives on rights, as, I am sure, there would be if we were to get into a discussion on this issue. The discussion has not gone to that place yet. I do not mind putting on the record that I am not always a fan of supranational organisations and the overarching legal frameworks that come with them. That is not specific to the UNCRC or any organisation. We should not be subject to any supranational organisation, and, in general, I reject legislation that comes from them. Personally, I am not comfortable with that narrative. Nevertheless, I understand the point that you make. Even within that framework, there are competing narratives, and I take a different view. However, on this issue, our position is that we will not oppose it.

Mr Burrows: As I was late, I have just one question. First, I have no issue with the principle that girls can wear trousers. However, that principle is sometimes undermined when people start saying that boys can wear skirts. I see trousers in adult life as unisex in many ways and see no issue with children wearing them, so I have no problem at all with your campaign. Well done for what you have done.

I go round a lot of schools and know that a lot of girls drop out of PE from, I think, year 10. Some of them cite PE kit as a reason. Can anything be changed on that — apologies if this question has already been asked — to make girls feel more comfortable and encourage them to stay in PE after year 10?

Ms Donnell: I do not know about other schools, but, in our school, we have to wear leggings. If we could wear jogging bottoms or something more comfortable and not as tight on your legs, that might help.

Mr Burrows: That would be helpful.

Ms Donnell: Yes.

Mr Burrows: That might encourage somebody to keep doing PE when they have a choice not to do it.

Ms Donnell: Yes.

Mr Burrows: OK. That is useful. Thank you.

Mr Quinn: Astrid, do you have anything to add? I am conscious that you have not had the chance to speak.

Ms Knox: We also have the choice to wear shorts for PE, but, every morning, when I see girls in their PE kit, I notice that their shorts are really short. I do not know whether they are forced to get them that short or whether there is a gender basis to different shorts. If we had access to longer ones, that would give people a choice.

Mr Quinn: A paper on children's right to physical education was put together by the European Network of Ombudspersons for Children and published in September. It might be useful for us to share that paper with you. Laura, please help me here. From memory, young people from across Europe, including Northern Ireland, told us that hygiene was an issue. After doing sport, young people wanted the facility and time to get washed in safe environments and time to rest and recover. There were also big conversations about water and rehydration. Those things are not gender-specific, but it may be worth sharing that paper with you.

Mr Burrows: A rising tide lifts all boats: it will still encourage more people and, therefore, more girls. A lot of girls drop out of PE. We should address that for healthy minds and bodies.

Mr Quinn: Yes, 100%.

Mr Burrows: OK. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That brings the evidence session to a close. I thank Rhea and Astrid in particular for presenting to us again. We are always conscious that a Committee is never an easy environment to present in, so thank you for being prepared to step up and do that. Thank you, Chris and Laura, as well.

Mr Quinn: I dare say that you might see "Rhea MLA" and "Astrid MLA" one day. What age are you —12?

Ms Donnell: Yes.

Mr Quinn: When can you stand for election? When you are 18 or 16? In six more years. We have a First Minister and a deputy First Minister right here. [Laughter.]

Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thanks, everybody.