Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I welcome Dr Katy Radford, the director of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression; Mr Pól Deeds, Irish Language Commissioner; and Mr Lee Reynolds, Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British Tradition. Thank you all for your submissions, which we received in advance; I am sure that we have all read them. I ask Katy to make her opening remarks.

Dr Katy Radford (Office of Identity and Cultural Expression): Good afternoon. Dia duit.

Dia dhaoibh.

. Sonse, fair fa’ ye.

. Thank you very much for seeing us today. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you at this early stage of our establishment. The office is going through its establishment phase, with the help of some very able agency staff and the support of the Executive Office, with which we are in contact daily at the moment. We are doing our best at this early stage to rise to the opportunity to raise awareness of the principles that we have in front of us and to support the development of the duty. We have hosted a number of very successful events so far, and we are very pleased to have had great support for those from minority and minoritised communities, as well as from the majority community.

We held a number of events at the Linen Hall Library, and we have supported an International Women's Day event. We have another event scheduled for later this month and in April, including taking over a gallery in the centre of town, and we will have a number of programmes and events to complement the ongoing work there. We are also anticipating doing some work with the public designated bodies later on in April. We have asked those bodies to join us to help design and think about how best we can work with them in the process. I am working closely with the Executive Office in all its shapes and forms, including its international relations directorate. Forgive me, because I will be leaving shortly after this to do some work in the Balkans, where we are looking at memorialisation and commemoration from a multiple-identity background. We will be able to raise awareness of the office and its work there. Thank you very much for seeing us today.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK, thank you. Go ahead, please, Pól.

Mr Pól Deeds (Irish Language Commissioner): Tráthnóna maith daoibh, a Chathaoirligh agus a choisteoirí. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil libh as an deis seo labhairt libh inniu. Seo é an dara huair agam a bheith os comhair an Choiste, dar ndóighe. Bhéarfaidh roinnt agaibh chun cuimhne go raibh deis agam labhairt libh i mí na Nollag sa bhliain 2024 agus mé sa ról a bhí agam roimhe seo mar leas-phríomhfheidhmeannach Fhoras na Gaeilge.

Agus mé anois i mo Choimisinéir Gaeilge nuacheaptha, is pribhléid domh a bheith anseo os bhur gcomhair ins an ról seo. Bunaíodh m'oifig go foirmiúil ar an 13 Samhain 2025 — ócáid chinniúnach thábhachtach le héifeacht phraiticiúil a thabhairt don Acht Féiniúlachta agus Teanga (Tuaisceart Éireann) 2022. Is céim thábhachtach chun tosaigh é bunú na hoifige seo le haitheantas oifigiúil a thabhairt don Ghaeilge i dTuaisceart Éireann. Tá aidhmeanna agus feidhmeanna m’oifige leagtha amach go soiléir san Acht, agus bheir siad creat reachtúil dúinn le húsáid na Gaeilge sna húdaráis phoiblí a fheabhsú agus a chosaint agus na húdaráis sin ag cur a seirbhísí ar fáil don phobal.

Ó thosaigh mé sa phost seo, tá chóir a bheith cúig mhí ó shin, dhírigh mé m’aird ar bhunchlocha m’oifige a leagan sa dóigh is go mbeidh sí in ann a cuid freagrachtaí reachtacha a chomhlíonadh ar bhonn neamhspleáchais, gairmiúlachta agus ionracais. Is foireann bheag muid; níl ach seisear againn ann, ach tá muid tiomanta. Faoi láthair, tá triúr ball foirne ar iasacht againn ó Oifig an Choiste Feidhmiúcháin, agus tá beirt acu anseo inniu i mo theannta — Terry Curran agus Jolene Donnelly — agus beirt chomhghleacaí gníomhaireachta. Táimid ag obair go tréan le chéile leis an rialachas, na córais agus na struchtúir atá de dhíth orainn a chur in áit lena chinntiú go bhfuil an oifig in ann a dualgais reachtúla a chomhlíonadh ón tús.

Thar na chéad mhíonna seo, leag mé béim láidir ar an rannpháirtíocht. Bhuail mé le réimse leathan comhlachtaí poiblí, le heagraíochtaí pobail agus le grúpaí de pháirtithe leasmhara. Bhí na comhráite seo iontach luachmhar ar fad le mo thuiscint a mhúnlú go luath ar na deiseanna agus ar na dúshláin atá romhainn, agus beidh siad seo mar threoir agam go fóill amach anseo i dtaca le cur chuige agus tosaíochtaí na hoifige agus muid ag bogadh chun cinn.

Ag amharc chun tosaigh, beidh an fás i líon foirne na hoifige ina phríomhthosaíocht againn. Tá sé de rún agam leanúint ar aghaidh le foireann a earcú a bhfuil na scileanna, an saineolas agus na hinniúlachtaí gairmiúla riachtanacha acu le tacú linn sainchúram na hoifige a comhlíonadh ina iomlán. Chomh maith leis sin, coinneoidh mé ag gabháil — agus rachaidh mé níos leithne — leis an rannpháirtíocht leanúnach le páirtithe leasmhara, agus muid ag bogadh anonn chuig an chéad chéim eile den obair: ceapadh na gcaighdeán dea-chleachtais. Moll mór oibre a bheas i gceist leis seo. Déanfaimid comhairliúchán fairsing a reáchtáil ar na dréachtchaighdeáin lena chinntiú go mbeidh siad cothrom, bunaithe ar fhianaise, agus ar aon dul leis an dea-chleachtas idirnáisiúnta. Déanfaimid cinnte fosta go bhfuil na dréachtchaighdeáin ag riar ar riachtanais agus ar ionchais na ndaoine a úsáideanna na seirbhísí atá na húdaráis phoiblí ag cur ar fáil agus iad faoi réir na gcaighdeán sin.

A Chathaoirligh agus a choisteoirí, cuirim fáilte roimh an deis seo an t-eolas is deireanaí a thabhairt daoibh fán dul chun cinn atá déanta go nuige seo, agus tá mé ag dúil le ceist ar bith atá agaibh a fhreagairt.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. Go ahead, please, Lee.

Mr Lee Reynolds (Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British Tradition): Monie thenks Convenor an Commïttee fur tha ettlin tae collogue wi yiz ayent that darg o tha offys. Thank you very much for the invitation to talk to you today about the work of the Office of the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British Tradition. I will not speak for too long — lang. The work that we have done to date is in front of you. Engagement has been an important part of it, and, as I have been given an office in Belfast, it is particularly important to make sure that I am seen out and about far beyond the bounds of Belfast. We have had about 72 meetings, and another 24 are planned. Amidst all that activity, there is a focus on being strategic and on the massive opportunities that there will be in the next 18 months around the education system in particular, with the new legal duty and the curriculum reform potentially coming through. The legal duty of the Executive to produce the Ulster-Scots strategy is an almost-20-year-old promise that has never quite come true, so one of the functions of my office is to make sure that it does so.

I have already identified a number of areas of research into and potential partnership working on the Ulster British tradition. You have the details of the organisational development that we have worked through. I have just defined my staff structure to deal with the three aims and functions that will relate to my promotional, policy advice and guidance, and complaints roles whenever I receive those powers from the Secretary of State. The only thing that we omitted from the information on setting up our structures was the fact that we have begun the recruitment for our audit and risk committee. We have worked through the policies and found a very effective short-, medium- and long-term cut for developing and implementing those.

The one concern that I have about the development of the office is budget. Like all public organisations, we are uncertain about where we will be after 1 April. Such uncertainty particularly affects new public organisations, because their legal flexibilities are not so flexible. As a person who wants to recruit very soon, I would like, when I finish an interview, to be able to offer a qualified person a job with a start date. Those are the things that we are working through.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you all. My first question touches on funding. The Executive Office's business case for the three offices was set at £8·3 million over three years, with £1·6 million for the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression and £1 million for each of the commissioners' offices. One of your submissions indicates that the allocations are "notably below" that level. You touched on that a wee bit, Lee. What impact would getting less than you anticipated have on the fulfilment of your statutory obligations? I do not know whether all of you want to answer that.

Dr Radford: I am very happy to kick off. It would bring us huge difficulty and impact our ability to work in the way that we anticipated, and not just because there has been such inflation. It is very important for us that we are able to recognise that this office will also have a grant-making function. Even without doing that work, we do not have the capacity and the resources that we will require to do the research that we need to carry out and the events that we can do. It is absolutely going to curtail what we will be able to do and the recruitment that we require.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Is that across the board?

Mr Reynolds: Yes. It is all very boring stuff. I do not think it is —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Not everything that we do is exciting.

Ms Ní Chuilín: We love business cases.

Mr Reynolds: I may be being slightly rude by potentially speaking for the three of us. I do not think that any of the three of us took the job for these of sorts of things. We all had our own interests and motivations for the work that we want to focus on, but it is also our responsibility to create these organisations responsibly, and two of us are accounting officers. There is a business case. I have been through it, and I have looked at my statutory functions. It envisages that I need 10 staff; in my opinion, I need 12 to seriously fulfil the legal functions that I have been given. The business case was written in 2023, and it is now 2026. There has been inflation and significant public-sector pay rises since then, and then there are the variety of set-up costs and so on and key one-off costs of setting up any new successful organisation. When those are combined, it places more of a ball and chain around our ankles rather than allowing us to get off to a full running start.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. My second question is directed to you, Pól. I will address the comments that were made in this Building:

Pól, many people, not least those in my party, have been working really hard over the years to try to depoliticise the Irish language. We campaigned for an Irish language Act etc. Do you accept that your comments have brought unnecessary and negative perceptions of the work that you have been asked to do, not least given that it is a publicly funded post?

Mr Deeds: First, I have been working very hard for the past 23 years myself to depoliticise the Irish language, and I have been very clear in this role that that is my primary focus. The comments that I made were in response to a question. That is very important. People are treating it as if it were some sort of policy statement. I was responding to a question about Conradh na Gaeilge's decision to actively work towards a united Ireland, and, in responding to that, I contextualised it and gave what I still feel is an appropriate response. It was appropriate advice, and it is my job to provide advice. I think that, as it snowballed, a lot of people were encouraged to react to the reaction, rather than listen to what I actually said. What I actually said was that people should reflect on whether this could be, in some sense, seen as — and then I repeated parts of the original phrase, which I actually parodied and turned around. I did not echo it, as some people on this Committee have said. I turned it around to make a point, and it is a valid point. I hope that people listen to it. If people have been offended by it, I would love to hear from them. I would love to speak to people who have genuinely been offended by it. I think that some of the commentary on it in the media was from people who were not genuinely offended and wanted to politicise my role. We have seen some of that, unfortunately, for the past number of months.

I take the criticism, especially the comments of the deputy First Minister. I have had conversations with the deputy First Minister before about this issue, and I listen when I hear things like that. However, I do have a difficulty with some of the things that have been said.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I suspect that others may raise that matter, but I wanted to put my own point of view, and that of the Alliance Party, on it

Lee, in your submission, you indicate that the Ulster-Scots strategy is "approaching a crucial stage" but that you have concerns that:

Can you give some insight into that?

Mr Reynolds: Certainly. First, when I took office, I engaged early with the team that is developing the strategies, and I asked them to share a number of documents with me. They did that, and the aim of that conversation was to ensure that, when a document goes out for public consultation, I would be in a position to say nice things about it: I might have to give it a nip and tuck here and there, but I would be able to say that it is broadly welcome. Unfortunately, as I went through the document, I found a number of substantive difficulties. A number of things have happened that have weakened the document. When you read the document, you get the sense that other Departments have seen it not as an Executive strategy but as a DFC strategy, so they have been very much, "You do that. We do not do that". Therefore, they have been very unwilling to make new commitments. When that falls on DFC, it very much pushes stuff towards the Ulster-Scots Agency. That has been a long-term policy problem. Any time that anybody mentions the words "Ulster Scots", it gets entirely lumped on the agency, which never gets the time, personnel or resource to deal with it. Work on the strategy was carrying on in that vein.

There is a key concern around infrastructure and the three institutions that need to be built. It is talking about building one of them and pretending that it is doing the other two. There are three parts that make up one whole, and we need all three for it to work. There is also a strong interrelationship between the three institutions, so if one is created and the other two are not really created, that causes a problem in developing and implementing the strategy, particularly if you want to develop long-term and significantly in education.

I continue to engage with the Department. I have written to the Minister and set out my concerns. There was a particular concern around the area of education. I had taken that up with Education officials, and I believe that I have made some progress on that. I will be meeting the Minister shortly and will be able to clarify how much progress I have made. I am continuing to push, but if the documents that I was presented with in December and January go out to public consultation, I will not be in a position to say that I commend it to the public of Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): OK. Thank you. I do not know whether I should have declared an interest earlier, but my husband is on the board of the Ulster-Scots Agency. There is a slight link there, so I will do that now.

My final question is for you, Katy, and it relates to the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition. I think that you were the only female on it. You will know that there are many difficult, knotty issues that we need to address as a society if we are going to have real peace, reconciliation and mutual respect. To what degree will some of the work that the commission undertook influence what you are going to do in your role in the new office?

Dr Radford: Thank you for the opportunity to consider that. At the moment, we are still in a position where I need to go out and consult on what the public are interested in doing. Things have changed a lot since that report was, forgive me, put on a shelf some time ago. There are recommendations that were agreed by all the parties and members of the commission, and it would be very interesting for us to take those out and do a piece of research around whether those still stand. There are other areas where agreement was not reached, and those too perhaps need to be revisited. However, until I go out to consultation, I cannot call it.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): That is fine. Thank you for that update.

Mr Dickson: Welcome to all three of you. At least two of us have met around Irish and Ulster Scots. Katy, we have not met formally yet —.

Dr Radford: I look forward to it.

Mr Dickson: I look forward to it as well. To follow on in the difficult area of how you are resourced and financed and the budget that has been set out for you, to what extent can your organisations share resources, accommodation, staffing and all those back-office things? What negotiations or discussions have taken place to deal with those?

Dr Radford: At the moment, we are working very closely —.

Mr Dickson: I know that. I know that you are all in the one space.

Dr Radford: Even in addition to that, we are sharing some resources. For example, we share an accountant. There are a range of things. We do not necessarily have the facilities that we require, so we are doing workarounds to support one another in that process and trying, as much as we can at this stage, to work together.

Mr Dickson: Will that also be the case for the forward-looking programme, with resources and activities being shared and you being able to work across the three areas rather than work in silos, which is —

Dr Radford: It would be my intention —.

Mr Dickson: — a constant complaint?

Dr Radford: I am sorry; I cut across you.

Mr Dickson: I was just saying that working in silos is a constant complaint about the public sector in Northern Ireland. How do you propose to get out of those silos or never get into them in the first place?

Dr Radford: I do not do silos.

Mr Dickson: Good.

Dr Radford: I am not very good at those. I am very happy to build bridges if we can. The other commissioners may want to address that issue now.

Mr Reynolds: One of my team pointed out that a pretty unique feature of the legislation is that OICE is allowed to provide — sorry, the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression.

Dr Radford: Thank you. We do not like the abbreviation OICE.

Mr Reynolds: Katy is not a fan of the abbreviation. OICE can provide those shared services. On a practical level, we are already looking at it. In an organisation of 10 people, once the organisation is up and running, there are not really full-time jobs in data protection, health and safety and human resources, so it makes sense to share those things. When it comes to accommodation, we are presently co-located. There remains a question mark over whether we stay in the building that we are in, but we are perfectly content to co-locate in the future. There has been a genuine value to doing that. An hour and a half ago, we had a conversation, and some joint work might come out of that. Being in the same building has facilitated those water-cooler conversations, which provide a lot of value.

Mr Dickson: Pól can speak on this as well, but that is all very positive. It is a refreshing approach to the way that you work together. That is the back-office side of it; what is the front-office side of the three of you working together? What will the public see? Rather than, perhaps, wrangling, how will we see you sharing the cultural identity and languages, front-facing and public-facing? How will we see that?

Dr Radford: We absolutely have started on that. Pól, you are leaning forward as though you are going to say something.

Mr Deeds: I was going to take that question because you took the first two, and also because I am the odd one out when it comes to the first part of your question. I have been clear from the start that I want to maintain an Irish-speaking environment. It will be important for us to be somewhere on our own. We are working through that with TEO colleagues at the minute to try to develop a business case to find alternative accommodation. There are issues around the lease anyway — it will have to be renewed for a much longer period than we want — so we are looking at alternative accommodation.

When it comes to working together, as Dr Radford said, her organisation in particular has been very proactive in organising initiatives to bring all three offices together. There was a fascinating one last week in the Linen Hall Library, where, over two days, we held four long engagement sessions with the public to talk about identity, challenge people on what they believed and see whether they wanted to discuss alternatives. It really was a fascinating couple of days. The three of us attended the event: we all addressed the audience, and it was very interactive. Things like that are taking place under the auspices of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression, and a number of other initiatives are planned.

From my point of view, as Irish Language Commissioner, I will try to do as much as possible in partnership with the other offices and, indeed, our community of users and the community that Lee, through his facilitation guidance, will promote and represent.

Mr Dickson: I have other questions, Chair, if I may.

The area of EU minority languages is important when it comes to the whole emphasis of bringing you together in your roles in a public-facing way but also in recognising the area of responsibility of minority languages across the UK and Europe. How are you working on that, bearing in mind that we are no longer in the EU but that it sets the benchmark for minority languages?

Mr Reynolds: On a minor point of clarity, it is a Council of Europe document. The UK remains a member of the Council of Europe and a signatory to that. There are a number of things around the work on that. Ulster Scots has been at part II status since it was recognised, which was almost 25 years ago now. It and Scots are the only two minority languages that have not progressed from part II to part III. Significant learning can be drawn from those documents, and it is in law that my office explicitly works to the Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. There are a number of significant principles there that can be drawn upon to inform the work and make sure that it is open: for example, the principle of self-identification.

It is also made clear that you get to celebrate, enjoy, develop and pass on to the next generation your identity, but you also have the responsibility of inter-community dialogue. Sometimes, in Northern Ireland, there is a false choice between a single identity or cross-community work. The principles from Europe say, "You do both". Those sorts of things will inform the work that I do and how I work with the other offices.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Pól, do you want to respond to that as well?

Mr Deeds: Briefly. As Lee says, it is a Council of Europe document, so the UK is still very much signed up to it. The Council of Europe Committee of Experts (Comex) will be coming back, possibly next year, to update its recommendations for its report. Its last recommendations on Irish said that we need the strategy for the Irish language in Northern Ireland to be implemented immediately. We also need full and immediate implementation of the Identity and Language Act insofar as it relates to Irish. It is very important that I, as commissioner, am able to report that both those things have happened.

One other very brief point on the European Charter. The cover note to the European Charter mentions that the whole point of legislation and protections for minority languages is to make people feel at home and at ease in the state in which they find themselves. It refers very much to the changing borders in Europe over the last couple of hundred years, but it says that the reason that we have this charter, which is the foundational document for both Lee and myself, is to make people feel at home in the state in which they find themselves. It is not in order to give people a stick to beat other people with or to progress a political agenda; it is about promoting their ease with the status quo. That is something that people can reflect on.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): One more.

Mr Dickson: Very briefly, can somebody enlighten us — not only me but probably anybody listening — on what on earth the Castlereagh Foundation is? What is it there for, what is it going to do and how does it deliver?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Katy?

Dr Radford: We do not yet have the Castlereagh Foundation powers. They have not yet been provided to us so that we can explore what exactly we want to do with that. It is certainly a space for research and a place and a space for east-west as well as North/South collaboration. It has yet to be thought through, just like the grant-making function, and how we are going to work through that, is yet to be determined. I do not feel that, at this stage, I can be any more eloquent or clearer on that.

Mr Dickson: Will there be shared grant-making? Will the thrust of any grant-making be to deliver what you all do, or will it be very much an opportunity for each of you to fight your corner — to get a bit of the grant and give it out to your special interests?

Dr Radford: I took on this role because I did not want to be in a place of binaries. The expectation on this office from me and those around is that we look at Northern Ireland, or the North of Ireland — however you choose to refer to it — in its broadest sense to welcome the demographics that are here and are changing, and it is about growth. We will see how we work and what people require. I will then come back to you and, hopefully, give you a much clearer answer.

Mrs Cameron: I thank you all for your attendance at the Committee. I had some questions about the strategy and the budget, but I will not repeat the questions asked by the Chair. I understand that you are under time pressure today. I specifically address my question on the Ulster Scots and Ulster British tradition to Lee. You talk about "Equality Law clarification" in your brief, and you say that:

Can you give us more information about that? Where exactly are we with that?

Mr Reynolds: When the UK Government announced their recognition of Ulster Scots and Cornish as recognised national minorities, there was a verbatim sentence in both statements that basically said that whether providing this national minority recognition had an impact on existing equality law was a matter for the court. I am paraphrasing; I am not giving you an exact quote. Basically, it said that this could potentially bring these groups under existing equality law protections. However, the Government were not going to take a position on it: the issue was going to be handed to the courts.

Since then, no one has raised it or taken it to the courts. I think that it is important to know whether the Ulster-Scots community has equality protections. I go back to the human rights documents that feed the work that I do: they raise the issues of non-discrimination and other areas. Does that tool exist for Ulster Scots or not? I will provide the clarity. Every national minority prior to that announcement had been brought under the existing equality laws in the United Kingdom. When they recognised the two new ones, they asked the question. How did all the other national minorities get in under the relevant legislation? A number of people took test cases, and the judge ruled that they were in. Another group campaigned to be explicitly included. Therefore, there are two routes in. What I want with this legal advice is to clarify whether we are already in, or whether somebody needs to take this to court, just to get the judge to say, "Yes, it's true". If it is not, the issue then becomes that you should bring the law into line so that those groups are recognised and given equality protections.

Mrs Cameron: Thank you. Is there a role for the Equality Commission? Has there been any engagement with it?

Mr Reynolds: Not so far, because I wanted to clarify the law in my head before I challenged it. There is potentially a role for it. If the learned legal opinion is, "Yes, we think you should", I would have that conversation with the Equality Commission. It, rather than me, is probably of the appropriate legal standing to take the issue to court. Once I receive the learned legal opinion, I will initiate the substantive conversation with the Equality Commission.

Mrs Cameron: What impact does that lack of clarity on policy and funding have on your work? Is there any impact?

Mr Reynolds: My office does not have a duty of due regard, so this could be seen as a filling of a gap. Officialdom, in its various forms, has treated Ulster Scots in two ways: the afterthought or the oversight. By placing yourself in those processes, it is much more difficult for public organisations to treat you as an afterthought or an oversight. It would strengthen it. Moreover, if every other national minority in the UK is deemed to be entitled to that protection, the same should apply to Ulster Scots.

Mrs Cameron: Do you have any idea when you will receive that legal clarity?

Mr Reynolds: I hope that it will be before the summer.

Mr Brett: I congratulate each of you on your appointment. It is clear that you are passionate about the roles that you have undertaken. I have had the pleasure of knowing one of the commissioners and the director. I know that you will do a great job. Pól, I look forward to working with you.

Pól, I will pick up on the comment that the Chair asked you about in her second question. You said that you were responding to a question, and that you thought that you had been misquoted. The quote was covered by the 'Belfast Telegraph' and the BBC. They state that, at an event at the Assembly, you said:

Is that the correct quote?

Mr Deeds: That is accurate.

Mr Brett: What was the phrase that you were coining?

Mr Deeds: The original phrase was something about every word spoken, or every word learnt, in Irish being a blow or a bullet in favour of a united Ireland. I was parodying that and turning it on its head. I said — you quoted it accurately — that it:

It was an invitation for people to reflect on that possibility, as a response to the decision that Conradh na Gaeilge made. A number of young Irish-language activists were, I believe, radicalised by ongoing hostility to the Irish language, and, a couple of weeks ago at its ard-fheis, Conradh na Gaeilge decided that it was going to promote a united Ireland, essentially.

Mr Brett: You also said:

Do you think that it is your role to give constitutional advice?

Mr Deeds: It absolutely was not constitutional advice. The advice was for people to reflect on the consequences of their actions when it comes to the ongoing hostility towards the Irish language and my office.

Mr Brett: You have made quite a few headlines since you took up office. A subheading in a story from 7 December 2025 states:

Is that still your position?

Mr Deeds: That was not my position. You can see how things get amplified in the press. I was pointing out some weaknesses in the legislation, such as my standards having to be agreed by the First Minister and deputy First Minister. That is one major one. It has weaknesses. All the international experts are clear that there are weaknesses in it. The Committee of Experts of the Council of Europe, which we mentioned, and the UN have said that there are weaknesses in the legislation as it stands. In fact, the Committee of Experts said that there is still a need for a stand-alone Irish language Act, so there are definitely weaknesses. That is my opinion, and the opinion of all the experts.

Mr Brett: Just so you are quoted correctly, it quotes you as saying:

Is that a correct quote?

Mr Deeds: That is 100%. That is my opinion. The other quote was a headline, so that is why I pointed out that that was not actually what I said.

Mr Brett: Of course. Sure. No problem.

This is a direct quote:

What are the problems in the political system?

Mr Deeds: Getting things agreed is the main one. However, as I have mentioned a few times, there is also the ongoing opposition to proactive measures to protect and enhance the use of the Irish language, which is what the legislation calls for. Those things together will present a challenge. However, I do not think that that challenge is insurmountable. The amount of public money that has been invested in our offices will lead people to have calm heads and see that we need to implement the legislation fully.

Mr Brett: Do you think that the vagueness of the legislation is what led you to state in December that you will be involved in the court case in relation to signage at Grand Central station?

Mr Deeds: I stated that I was going to be asked, which I was in the end. Considering the fact that our powers had not been commenced at that point, I took legal advice, and that advice was that I should not, so we respectfully denied the request from the judge to involve ourselves in that case.

Mr Brett: Should you not have checked your legal status before you made those comments?

Mr Deeds: The comment was reflecting the fact that I believed that I was going to be asked. I do not think that I ever expressed an intention or desire to get involved in the case, just that I was going to be asked and that, if I was asked, there was every chance that I could get involved. I do not think that I ever expressly stated a desire, although I understand that at the time it was said that I had.

Mr Brett: Given that the case is in relation to Translink, what legislative provision in your office would have stated that you would have any role in providing advice to Translink?

Mr Deeds: There is none. I cannot advise Translink. It is not currently one of our public authorities. I can advise the Department for Infrastructure, which is one of our listed public authorities, but, no, I cannot directly advise Translink. What I can do, in the preparation of my best-practice standards, is speak in consultation with anybody. It is something that I could bring up with Translink in a conversation about my standards, but I cannot provide direct advice to Translink in the way that I can with our listed authorities.

Mr Brett: I want to pick up one final quote from you in relation to the outworkings of some of the commentary at the Conradh na Gaeilge event. It is in relation to Jamie Bryson. His comments about the DUP and me are on the record. I do not always agree with Mr Bryson, and Mr Bryson certainly does not always agree with the stance taken by me or my party. Have you had an opportunity to reflect on some of the language that you used to describe him? You are quoted as saying:

Do you think, as a public servant, that that is appropriate language to use about a member of the public?

Mr Deeds: It was a bad translation, I have to say, of an Irish language interview. In the interview, I was trying to avoid talking about that person. I just did not want to go into all of that, and I was being dragged kicking and screaming into it. The quote that I gave ended up being used. It was not given as a quote. It was said during a conversation with a journalist to try to steer it away from that area, and it was, of course, quoted. The only person I owe an apology to for that is myself, because it made me sound like a moody teenager does when they are texting their friends. No, it was not the kind of language that I would use if I was given the choice. I think that it was manipulated in the article that eventually came out.

Mr Brett: So you did not use the word "poison"?

Mr Deeds: I used the Irish words "nimh agus naimhdeas"

if I remember correctly. "Nimh" can mean "poison", but it also means "bitterness", and "naimhdeas" means "hostility". Those were the two words, I think. That would be how I would translate it, if I had to do it again, which I will not.

Mr Brett: I appreciate that.

Finally, I really enjoyed the 'Belfast Telegraph' podcast that you did, as I did the one that Lee did. I do not know whether you have done one yet, Katy; if not, I encourage you to do so. In that podcast, you stated:

Why do you think people in the Protestant/unionist/loyalist community (PUL) community are suspicious of Irish?

Mr Deeds: Well, that is a long one. We have had a conflict and are in a divided society here. The conflict was partly related to identity and language. That is the short answer.

I do not think, as I have said before, that the issues of identity and language were dealt with very well in the past, and that feeds into it. There are a number of reasons why that might be the case, but it certainly is the case. A lot of those fears and concerns are genuine, and I want to deal with them as part of my work. In fact, almost every time that I have spoken, I have mentioned the fact that I want to engage with the PUL community or engage in initiatives to recognise its identity and culture.

It might do no harm to put it on the record for the first time here today, Chair, that, in my first week in this role, I wrote to Commissioner Reynolds, Commissioner for the Ulster-Scots and Ulster-British tradition, to ask him to consider as null and void clause 78U(1)(c) in our legislation that removes my office from the list of public authorities that must be susceptible to his facilitation guidance. That is not necessary for my office because I am determined to go about this in a way that can show the unionist, Protestant and loyalist community that its identity can be facilitated and recognised by the Irish language and by the Office of the Irish Language Commissioner. That is important, and I am glad to put it on the record here today.

Mr Brett: Do you think, then, that when Conradh na Gaeilge makes a decision, which it is entitled to do, that it wishes to pursue the breakup of the United Kingdom that that helps or hinders unionist understanding of, or encouragement or appreciation for, the Irish language?

Mr Deeds: When I made my comments, I was trying to distance myself from its decision.

Mr Brett: Do you think that it was the wrong decision?

Mr Deeds: I do not want to say too much because it is a democratic organisation. It takes its own decisions, and I did contact —

Mr Brett: Did you provide advice?

Mr Deeds: No, I do not provide advice to Conradh na Gaeilge.

Mr Brett: You do not provide advice to Translink either, but did say that you can go in and discuss things with it. Have you had an opportunity to tell Conradh na Gaeilge that that was the wrong decision?

Mr Deeds: Not yet.

Mr Brett: OK.

Mr Deeds: I will say — sorry, just to finish off on that one point —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am conscious of time.

Mr Deeds: I had the opportunity to speak to the Conradh na Gaeilge's ard-fheis, at which it made that decision. I was a keynote speaker on the Friday night before it took its votes. I used that opportunity to speak to the people there. I challenged everybody at that event to think, regardless of what society or constitutional arrangement we have going forward, about how we could include other cultures and identities, including the orange identity and the British and Ulster-Scots traditions, which I specifically mentioned.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you.

Mr Brett: I will drop you a note, and we will meet up.

Mr Deeds: I appreciate that.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Go raibh maith agat. Ar dtús, Pól, tá cúpla ceist agam. Ní bheidh mé ag caint as Gaeilge, nó tá mé á foghlaim. Tá brón orm as sin.

I do not have enough Irish to use all the big words.

It is a pleasure to see the three of you together; it really is. I feel as if I have been a matchmaker for about 20 years

so it is really great to see you. Pól, you and Lee have been waiting for this for 20 years since St Andrews. Eleven years ago, the only parties to support both strategies were ourselves and the SDLP. Other parties were against them. Pól, how important is the Irish language strategy in protecting, promoting and enhancing the Irish language?

Mr Deeds: It is as important as this legislation.

Ms Ní Chuilín: OK.

Mr Deeds: The Identity and Language Act, insofar as it relates to the Irish language, is only one piece of the jigsaw. I have no remit for language planning, education or the media. That remit will fall under the Executive strategy. It is important to note that it is an Executive strategy. The Department for Communities is dealing with it at the minute. However, it will be an Executive strategy that will need to be owned by all Departments.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Have you seen the draft strategy?

Mr Deeds: I have, yes.

Ms Ní Chuilín: We have not. I just want to put that on the record.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We do not see much on this Committee.

Ms Ní Chuilín: No. That seems to be constant theme. What about dual-language signage? That is a fair question, particularly with regard to promoting equality, good relations and parity of esteem. You will be aware of An Cumann Gaelach at Queen's and Ulster University and its promotion of dual-language signage for younger Gaeilgeoirí in particular. What is your view on that?

Mr Deeds: I have been very clear with An Cumann Gaelach at Queen's, which I have met on the issue, that my remit is to support, advise and guide the public authority, which is the university. I know that the referendum happened this week, but, in a sense, that is a side issue for me. Two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to go to Wales with both our universities. It was an absolutely inspirational visit to see how minority language issues and bilingualism are dealt with in the public sphere in Wales, including in universities. We took the leadership of both universities with us. On the basis of that, I will be providing advice to both universities shortly.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Will that be part of the standards that you bring forward for public bodies?

Mr Deeds: No. I will be providing that advice in the next number of weeks..

Ms Ní Chuilín: In the next number of weeks? I will not get into it then, because I do not want to trip you up.

I will ask you all this question, so you can start thinking. Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann is coming here for two years in a row, which is a massive opportunity. Do you not think that that would be a great opportunity to use your three offices to promote and enhance not just the Irish language but Irish culture and, indeed, Ulster-Scots culture and everything else. Katy, I will start with you.

Dr Radford: I am nodding away. It is a fabulous opportunity for everybody in this part of the world to share in something that is joyful, celebratory and positive and which enables people to think about not only who they are but, more importantly, who other people are. There is good work ongoing in that field. TradFest is already working with a range of different groups from across the divide, if we can call it that, and across communities here. Such good work has gone on, with groups coming together, since the last time when it was in Derry/Londonderry (D/LD). I have a board member, for example, who is doing fantastic work with dancers and musicians. So bring it on.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Katy, you are the only one who has the authority to make grants.

Dr Radford: In due course.

Ms Ní Chuilín: "In due course" is language for, "Whenever we get round to it", in my opinion — not from you. Will that depend on budget, or what will it depend on?

Dr Radford: I have absolutely no budget at the moment for doing any meaningful work in and around grant-giving. I look forward to being able to put in a budget proposal for that. It is essential. What we do is build relationships with one another, very often through the arts and communication. Without a budget, it will be just another quango, and we do not need that.

Ms Ní Chuilín: No, we do not.

Lee, a lot of what you said is very familiar. It was said 20 years ago.

Mr Reynolds: Sadly.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Sadly, yes. That is no reflection on yourselves. My concern is that the Irish language strategy and the strategy for Ulster-Scots culture and heritage and British identity will be so diluted. I am not saying that my strategies were great. All I am saying is that there was a lot of consultation then, and the sectors drove those strategies. I deliberately took the officials away from those and let the sectors drive them. My concern is that, when the strategies are eventually published, people will not recognise themselves in them.

You talked about education and said that the curriculum reform process is under way. What exactly does that mean?

Mr Reynolds: The Northern Ireland curriculum is being reviewed. The previous version had a number of significant difficulties. It is a key document that teachers refer to, and it was written in very broad terms. In theory, when you challenge the Department or anybody else, they go, "Well, you're in there. You're just not in there explicitly". However, a lot of people in the education system want to see Ulster Scots in lights. Since the last curriculum was produced, you have had the creation of a legal duty, which took effect in February last year, and the recognition of a national minority. We essentially need Ulster Scots to be in lights in the curriculum in order to fulfil that legal duty.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Is it Ulster-Scots culture and heritage rather than the language?

Mr Reynolds: The language in the legislation is a bit loose.

Ms Ní Chuilín: That is why I am asking.

Mr Reynolds: The legislation mentions the need to enhance

You cannot enhance understanding of Ulster Scots without placing it in its cultural and heritage context.

I stress that the Ulster Scots revival is a stool built on three legs — culture, heritage and language — and we do not want the stool to be shuggly

The three legs are of an equal importance, and if you take one away, it does not work. The expert panel report used that example and said that the Ulster-Scots identity should be looked at as a lake that has been partially drained. It has got a bit polluted, but there are still a few live fish in it. The leid — the language — is the fish, and by doing the breadth and depth of the culture and heritage, you are trying to get understanding, interest and capacity to clean out the lake and fill it up again so that the fish will thrive. It goes against drawing strong lines of demarcation.

There are also massive opportunities. For example, Scotch country dancing and Highland dancing are done to a particular tune. There will be a song and words in the tune, so there are multiple ways of bringing the language into a context for people. In time, we aim to have GCSEs and A levels available in this, but the key is building at Key Stages 1, 2, 3 and 4 in a multiplicity of ways.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Do you see yourself informing the curriculum development?

Mr Reynolds: Yes.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Good. Lee, can you explain the difference between yourselves and the Ulster-Scots Agency?

Mr Reynolds: The Ulster-Scots Agency is part of the North/South Language Body, and it is a cross-border institution, whereas my remit applies purely to Northern Ireland and its public authorities. The primary difference is that it is the grant-giving body; I do not have a grant-giving capacity. I also have a stronger policy role. There is a distinction as the Ulster-Scots Agency has the full breadth of culture, heritage and language, whereas the legislation that established my office is slightly more restrictive, covering language, literature and the arts. However, those are elastic bands that I can stretch.

Ms Ní Chuilín: You should stretch them. My last question is about the Fleadh Cheoil, and promoting and enhancing each others work using the power of the hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. How do you feel about those opportunities?

Mr Reynolds: You grasp every opportunity — every hitlin ye tak — and go with every opportunity. There has already been work, and the Belfast Bands Forum has led engagement with the fleadh. The forum has taken some heat for that, but it has kept its head up and kept going.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I saw them yesterday.

Mr Reynolds: The same applies to the St Patrick's Day event in Belfast. The first letter that I sent from my office was to the Belfast Bands Forum because the 'Irish News' was picking on it for no particular reason. I sent them a good-on-you letter to let them know that people were thinking about them. We are very good at doing major events, and we should carry on that tradition. I will sneak in that the World Pipe Band Championships might be looking for somewhere to go. I will throw that out there.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Excellent. Have you faced any hostility, Lee?

Mr Reynolds: I have faced some.

Mr Deeds: That is just from me.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Are you like with that everybody?

Mr Deeds: I do not discriminate.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): I am conscious that Pól wanted to answer the question about the fleadh.

Mr Deeds: The Imperial Guards Flute Band was in the St Patrick's Day parade yesterday.

Ms Ní Chuilín: Yes, I saw that.

Mr Deeds: It was very welcome.

Mr Reynolds: Sorry, what was the question?

Ms Ní Chuilín: Have you faced hostility in the same way as Pól?

Mr Reynolds: We have had some snide remarks on social media. I have not had direct attacks on me, or what I have said or done, but I have been around long enough to know that my day will come. Moreover, my personality means that I am going to do something wrong somewhere. I will lose my temper and be a bit short with somebody. I see a few knowing smiles from those who might have been on the receiving end of it in the past.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I wish the three of you good luck, particularly Katy with your trip today.

Dr Radford: Thank you. Go raibh maith agat.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I wish you all the very best. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Mr Deeds: Thank you.

Mr Reynolds: Thank you.

Ms Sugden: Thank you for coming today; it is very useful. As a unionist, I see my unionism as a constitutional opinion, rather than anything that is enveloped in culture or identity. We should separate those things, so we are almost separating politics from identity.

From an identity perspective, I very much see myself as British and Irish. The sad thing for me is that, when I was growing up in Northern Ireland, I was not exposed to Irish culture as much as I was exposed to British Orange culture. Having listened to you, and understanding how the commissions are set up, it still feels fragmented and disjointed. It should not be about Lee's role being for the PUL community and Pól's for the Irish nationalist community; it should be about the people of Northern Ireland being able to access both. If anything, we should have had one commission in which the two of you had a joint role in advocating for what you know best but ensuring that it could be a multifaceted thing that the people of Northern Ireland could access and be exposed to.

How will you work together? I have heard some of that today. Yes, you have a role to advocate for your own identities, but there is a growing number of people in Northern Ireland, which includes me, who want access to both, and we want to see that it is not a case of "us and them". Sadly, the way in which it has been designed makes it seem a bit like that: it is a bit like the Departments working in silos. There is an opportunity for access to cultural expression and to finding a way of working together. I am heartened to hear that that is how you intend to approach it, but it needs to be more about who we are from Northern Ireland and not necessarily about which side of the fence we are from. How will you actively work together and ensure that we are exposed to you all in a way that represents people like me?

Dr Radford: Thank you for that, Claire. We are running a programme called, "British? Irish? Either? Neither?". There should be a "Both?" in there somewhere, but I suppose that that is the provocation for people to decide whether they are ready to commit to that. That is precisely what we are here to do — put up a charter of, "Can you buy into this?" and "How well do you do that?". I have spoken to both commissioners about some work that we will be doing in April and May to achieve that. We will be providing a programme of events around how we explore, challenge and provoke, kindly, with the value base that we are all working in, which is about generosity of spirit, the soft skills and the soft ways of working together. That is what I am here to do, and I am building a team who want to do that. Thank goodness that the commissioners with whom I have been working have bought into that. I will keep pushing at them and saying, "No, you can't do that. You are going to come over with me for a bit". We will wait and see whether that keeps having traction, but I believe that it will.

Ms Sugden: Do any of the commissioners want to come in? I am keen to hear from you, because you are at the front of it.

Mr Reynolds: There's mair than twa. There are more than two that people can choose from. To give you something to look forward to, you will see in your pack that, under the Ulster-British strand, I will be consulting on and developing a working definition of "Ulster British". I expect that that definition will have breadth and depth. We have had various little conversations, saying, "We could do this together" and "We could do that together", but, as you will appreciate, we are only four months in, and none of us has our full-time staff. There are ideas floating amongst us about where we can do things together and cooperatively. I have always said that, considering the legislation and the agreement that it came from, there is a more-than-justifiable expectation from the public that we will work consistently and persistently together.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Have you anything to add, Pól?

Mr Deeds: In principle, Claire, I agree with you, to an extent, about having one office or one commissioner. There are examples in Canada of such things happening. Baby steps are needed. If you reflect on some of the things that have been said about me and about the Irish language in recent times, you will see that we need to take baby steps. These things depend on leadership. We have leadership in these three offices, and we are genuinely willing to work together to promote each other's work. I mentioned the initiative in which I will make myself susceptible to Commissioner Reynolds's facilitation guidance. Real practical work will come out of that — work that will see intercommunity dialogue based on identity.

That is a good start. We need to keep going, certainly for the next few years anyway. I do not think that anybody intends to carry out major structural developments in the offices in the next five years. It has been as good a start as we could have hoped for. I just hope that we will be given the space to continue to promote the issues together.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Is there anything else, Claire, or is that you?

Ms Sugden: Well, yes. I suppose that — maybe it has already been reflected — the politics that got us here are disappointing to me. That may be the reality of Northern Ireland, but we are here now. The offices are statutory bodies that will spend public funding. What will that look like on the ground for my constituents and people across Northern Ireland? There is a lot of lovely back-room stuff going on, but what does that mean for people on the ground who are funding the offices?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Pól, do you want to start with that?

Mr Deeds: I will go first, because possibly the biggest change that people will notice will be in their public authorities, such as their local councils, where my best-practice standards will recommend new ways of working to enhance and protect the use of the Irish language. It will be seen more and heard more. Nobody will be forced to learn it, speak it or anything like that. One of the foundational elements of the legislation is that the use of Irish is to be enhanced and protected in our public authorities. That will have an effect when it comes to what service users hear and see when they use those public authorities. I imagine that that will be the only significant change for your constituents. That may be significant enough for some of them. Again, I will try to speak to as many people in the community, and the public authorities themselves, as possible. Shortly, I will undertake a programme of research and consultation. As part of that, we would like to speak to service users of the public authorities.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Have you anything to add? Go ahead, Katy.

Dr Radford: The three of us need to work out, if and when we go out to consultation, what the areas will be, so that we do not duplicate and put the onus on individuals. We have to work together on such issues, because we will be developing standards, guidance and support for people. If the previous "clean walls" policy, as it were — to use an older phrase — is no longer a "clean walls" policy, we really need to make sure that people feel confident and able to have the conversations that, for many years, they were not comfortable or confident to have. We have to do that in a trauma-informed way and in a way that brings into consideration whether we are working in single-identity or cross-community spaces or in spaces where women or others may feel particularly excluded. For me, the process is not about simply saying, "Well, I am going to go out and ask and talk about it" but about how we work together, in tricky situations, to enable people to have their lived lives. For many years, we have said, "Bring your whole self to work". We do not do that. We pay lip service to that expression, because it is a popular thing to say. However, what we have not got yet but really need to get is the lived life experiences of people so that we can develop the value base that I mentioned earlier, which we all want to work towards.

Ms Sugden: I am really pleased to hear that.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We have time for a response from you as well, Lee, if you want to add to that.

Mr Reynolds: Basically, people do not feel that their identity is necessarily being valued or recognised for its wealth. In five years' time, I want to see that that has changed and that people see that in the public policies and procedures towards Ulster British and Ulster Scots and in the broader context of the range of identities in Northern Ireland.

Ms Sugden: Yes. Perfect.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Good stuff.

Mr Gaston: In the interests of time —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): We have 10 minutes each. Katy, do you have to leave at a certain time?

Dr Radford: I will leave only if I can take Lee with me, because he is dropping me to the airport.

Mr Gaston: I am happy to confine my questions to Mr Deeds, if that helps.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): You have 10 minutes. Use them as you will.

Mr Gaston: If Sinéad wants to ask questions to Mr Reynolds or Dr Radford, do you want to bring her in?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you. Go ahead then, Sinéad. Do you want to go first? I will then bring Timothy in. You have 10 minutes.

Ms McLaughlin: I will be quick. You are all welcome. It is great to see the three offices together. Congratulations on your appointments. I look forward to the work that you will do in the years to come.

What is your assessment of the current readiness of public authorities to meet the language standards? Have you identified any sectors that will be challenged in the implementation of those standards? How will you balance public expectations of rapid progress with the practical limitations that you will probably experience as public bodies work to comply with those standards? It is about managing expectations, I suppose.

Mr Reynolds: Language provision for Ulster Scots is basically non-existent. Slowly but surely, that will have to change. There is a massive challenge for Ulster Scots around language infrastructure, because the institutional framework does not exist right now. That is a type of framework that can be found in every other European language revival, so it needs to be created, and that will pose challenges. That need not also be an excuse for some public authorities to do nothing in the meantime. I will have to bridge what they should be doing and what is deliverable for them and make them fully aware that more will be expected of them as this develops.

Mr Deeds: Those are the issues that we discuss on a daily or at least weekly basis in our office. We will just have to plan for that. Lee mentioned the complaints procedure earlier, when he was talking about budgets. That will be an issue for us. As I mentioned earlier, we have visited the Welsh language commissioner and the Irish language commissioner in the South. It is clear that it takes a lot of people to manage a complaints procedure, so we will have to address that.

On the question of whether some public authorities may be readier than others, those that I have the most experience with from my previous role in Foras na Gaeilge are the local authorities — the councils. I met representatives from each of them last year: 24 of them, actually. My sense is that they are all ready to move, in some respect, as soon as they receive my advice. There are other bits of advice and things that we need to do in the meantime to get the office properly established, but I will put those people at the top of the list, in order to engage with them and see what their concerns or, indeed, ambitions are. So far, I have met five of them, and that feeling has been reinforced by the conversations that I have had with them.

Ms McLaughlin: Will they have the resources that will be required in order to meet the standards?

Mr Deeds: There will be different elements to the standards. Some will be cost-effective and, possibly, cost-free, so we could prioritise those. Again, I will need to have that conversation with them, and they will need to have it with the Department for Communities and the Executive to see how extra funding can be released. I do not expect them to be overly expensive. A lot of those things can happen within their current operations, just as they are renewed through their annual or five-year plans. I will have to be cognisant of that.

Ms McLaughlin: Will all your offices commit to publishing regular performance metrics? At this stage, have you identified what those metrics might be? It could just be numbers, in the case of the complaints process that Pól talked about. Are you identifying others that you would like to publish so that the public can be reassured of the work that you are doing?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Katy, would you like to take that?

Dr Radford: Thank you so much. At the moment, Sinéad, we are establishing the office. Until we have the right people in the office to have those conversations with our board, and until we can speak to others on the outside as to what they would like, I do not feel that this is the right time to answer that question. Forgive me; we want to do everything that we can to be as transparent as possible and to show integrity. That may mean that we will need to change the way that we think about how we report on things. We have an awful lot of boxes that people like to tick. On the other hand, however, there may be something about not just compliance but commitment. Commitment can take a range of formats; it does not necessarily mean that the standards need to be enumerated. If you will forgive me, I need some time to think about how I can work with the team, once we get the right one in place.

Ms McLaughlin: Perhaps you can come back and explain that at a later stage.

Dr Radford: I would love to.

Ms McLaughlin: We will need to know whether you are doing things right. I hope that, in five years' time, there will be more respect in the public arena for one another's culture. That will represent significant progress for all the offices.

I wish you well in your important work.

Dr Radford: Thank you so much for your support for it.

Mr Reynolds: Thank you.

Mr Deeds: Go raibh maith agat.

Dr Radford: If we get out and about as much as possible and take the opportunity to see and be seen and, most importantly, to hear other people's views, I think that you will find that the dial will start to switch incrementally. That is what we need the opportunity to do. If we are stuck in an office, that will never come, unfortunately.

Ms McLaughlin: Thank you.

Mr Gaston: Welcome along to the Committee. If you need to leave, Dr Radford and Lee Reynolds, that is fine; I will not take offence. [Laughter.]

Dr Radford: I really hope that we do not, as we have not met before, but thank you; that is kind of you.

Mr Gaston: I will start with you, Mr Deeds. The press statement announcing your appointment as commissioner mentions that you:

What party was that?

Mr Deeds: It was Sinn Féin.

Mr Gaston: At what point did you resign your membership of Sinn Féin?

Mr Deeds: A number of years ago.

Mr Gaston: Are we talking five years ago —

Mr Deeds: Around that.

Mr Gaston: — 10 years ago, two years ago, five months ago?

Mr Deeds: About five years ago.

Mr Gaston: The last time that you were before the Committee, which, I fully acknowledge, was in a different role, for Conradh na Gaeilge —.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): It was for Foras na Gaeilge

Mr Gaston: It was for Foras na Gaeilge. At that time, I shared my concern that the biggest damage being done to the Irish language was by Sinn Féin's politicising of the language. Little did I know that, within five months of taking up post, you would continue in that vein and, indeed, politicise the office. It almost seems that you have no self-awareness or that you do not understand the concerns of unionism.

You mentioned that you parroted a phrase. Let us put it in context. The phrase that you said was:

The phrase that you were parroting is:

That comes from 1982, at the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I expected you to distance yourself from that today, but you acknowledged it, saying, "Yep, that is what I said" and admitting that you were parroting the phrase. Have you no awareness of how that seems to unionism?

Mr Deeds: I did not say that I was parroting it; I said that I was not. I said that I was parodying it.

Mr Gaston: Oh, parodying.

Mr Deeds: I was not echoing or parroting anything; I was parodying that phrase and turning it on its head. I know that I cannot ask you questions — that is not how this works — but I would love to ask you, "Do you not get that?". I would love to ask you, "Do you honestly not get the point that I was making?". I was not echoing any phrase; I was using it and turning it on its head to make a point.

I understand some of the concerns of unionists. I have worked with unionists throughout my career. When I, along with Seán Ó Coinn, the chief executive of Foras na Gaeilge, met you on 4 December 2024 — the first and only time that I have met you — I ended the session by offering to meet you to discuss the issues. The next time that I heard your name was just after my name had been announced in the press in connection with this role, when you said, in a press release, that you had "grave concerns" about my appointment. Those grave concerns, as far as I understand them, related mainly to the fact that Seán Ó Coinn and I, as Foras na Gaeilge representatives, had said that the current legislation here does not go far enough. That view is shared by the Council of Europe. That was a Foras na Gaeilge opinion; it was not mine. I do not think, honestly, that that gave you sufficient grounds to say that you had grave concerns.

The next time that I heard your name was when our powers were commenced in January. You had just met Lee; I saw pictures of you online. When our powers were commenced, which, I think, was the week following that meeting, you put out a press release in which you did not mention the other two offices but attacked me. You said that the Irish Language Commissioner should not exist. You said that I am involved in "aggressive and divisive" campaigning, which some people might recognise from somewhere else. Honestly, I think that you have politicised my office. I do not think that I have politicised my office by offering genuine advice to people who care for the union to not continue to support the ongoing attack on the Irish language and my office.

Mr Gaston: You have confirmed my suspicion that you have no awareness of how this is seen by unionism or how the Irish language being inflicted on unionist communities in Belfast and your parody of that 1982 slogan have been received in unionism. You are doubling down on that and trying to —.

Mr Deeds: It was received quite well by some unionists who contacted me, just so that you know. Some people told me, "You are spot on. We have been saying this for years."

Mr Gaston: That is OK. A lot of people whom I have been speaking to —. I hosted Innocent Victims' Day a number of weeks ago, and people said to me that, because you decided to use that phrase, it is almost as though you support what has taken place. That is how it is seen.

Mr Deeds: Explain that to me. Honestly, I do not get that.

Mr Gaston: Why choose that phrase?

Mr Deeds: I will say it again: it was turning the phrase on its head to say that —.

Mr Gaston: That is not the way in which it has been received.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Sorry, just a wee second. This is obviously a very emotive issue. We need to speak one at a time. You asked a question, Timothy. You must allow Pól to respond, and then you can come back in.

Mr Deeds: I will explain it one more time. The original phrase was that every word spoken of Irish, or in favour of Irish, is supporting a united Ireland. The point that I was making was that Conradh na Gaelige, which was a group of young, newly-radicalised Irish speakers who had been radicalised partly because of the hostility shown to the Irish language and partly because of the delay in introducing legislation, took that decision because of that hostility, and that there is, therefore, a clear link between the ongoing hostility shown to the Irish language and to my office and people becoming radicalised and pro a united Ireland.

It was an obvious point. I do not think that too many people did not get it, as we are told by Mr Gaston. As I said, I was contacted by people who are unionist, some of them Irish speakers and some of them not, who said, "You are spot on. We have been saying this for years". It is good advice, and I recommend that you take it.

Mr Gaston: I say to you, from people whom I speak to, deal with and represent, that that is not the way that it has been perceived by innocent victims of IRA terrorism.

I will move on. Continuing in the same vein, which was about the context of the frustration that the Irish language community feels, you told the BBC that people need to "take note". To me, that comes across as a political warning. Your job is to give advice to public bodies. What public bodies were you giving that advice to?

Mr Deeds: I gave that advice generally, but the Assembly Commission is one of the public bodies on our list. I can give advice and speak to people to offer advice and hear their opinions. As we have covered in depth in this session, we are, the three of us, under the stewardship of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression. We all endeavour to go out and speak to people about these issues, challenge people on what they believe and try to bring people along, in a sense, to see that this can all be done and all be celebrated in a non-contentious way.

As I mentioned as well, every time that I have spoken, publicly or in the media, I have promoted respect for the Ulster-Scots and Ulster-British tradition. Your party leader called me a bigot a couple of weeks ago. It is not in the real world. People need to get real.

Mr Gaston: At the same time, Mr Deeds, as I have said, you show no awareness of how the issue is perceived and how the Irish language is being politicised and being received in unionist communities. You seem detached from that. You see it from your world view, but you should also take it in context and see it from the world view of people within unionism and how they feel.

Moving on, I give you a trigger warning, because I am going to talk about Jamie Bryson. You said today that the words that were attributed to you were a bad translation. That is the first time that I have heard you talk about that. You also used the term, "moody teenager". Was it a bad translation, or does Jamie bring out the moody teenager in you?

Mr Deeds: No. I think that I was fairly clear earlier. It sounded like a moody teenager because of the way that the journalist or the subeditor, whoever it was, chose to repeat it in the article. They emphasised the part of the interview in which I continually tried to not talk about that person. The journalist was trying to get a line out of me about him, and I said what I said.

Mr Gaston: It has taken you six weeks to clarify that.

Mr Deeds: I am just giving you these bits of information in the course of this very useful session. I am not trying to clarify anything for anyone.

Mr Gaston: That has been interpreted as, "I am not going to say a word about that person. I do not even want his name in my mouth". If that had been attributed to me, wrongly, I would surely have tried to set the record straight and made contact with him. Are you going to take this opportunity to apologise? Have you contacted the 'Belfast Telegraph' to complain?

Mr Deeds: I have.

Mr Gaston: Have you contacted Mr Bryson?

Mr Deeds: No.

Mr Gaston: Do you not think that you should take this opportunity to apologise to him?

Mr Deeds: No, I do not, for reasons that I will not go into.

Mr Gaston: Is there a personal hostility between you and Mr Bryson?

Mr Deeds: There is clearly personal hostility coming from the other direction. I do not know the individual, but I cannot go too far into those issues.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Last question. You are up to nine minutes.

Mr Gaston: If we go down through it, we see that you also said:

How is it not lawful for an individual to use legal routes to challenge what has taken place at Grand Central station, where we have seen the overreach of a Sinn Féin Minister in trying to impose divisive signage in the heart of Belfast?

Mr Deeds: I said that I was not sure whether it was lawful, and I will let you know when I get the answer, because I have asked the question.

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): Thank you.

Mr Gaston: May I ask just one more?

The Chairperson (Ms Bradshaw): No. Everybody has been given 10 minutes, Mr Gaston, and we agreed at the start that everybody was to get an equal amount of time.

I echo the sentiments of my colleagues in wishing you all well in your new roles. I will pick up on Sinéad's point: if you want to share any updates with me at any time, I will make sure that the rest of the Committee members get them. I wish you well going forward. Thanks very much for your attendance today.

Mr Deeds: Go raibh maith agat.

Dr Radford: Thank you very much indeed.

Mr Reynolds: Thank you.