Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): The Committee will receive oral evidence from Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) on its recent inspection of child criminal exploitation (CCE) in Northern Ireland. The witnesses providing evidence today are Jacqui Durkin, the chief inspector of CJINI, and Maureen Erne, the lead inspector for child criminal exploitation in Northern Ireland for CJINI. I welcome you both to the Justice Committee. Thank you very much for your time.

Jacqui, I invite you to make an opening statement.

Ms Jacqui Durkin (Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland): Thank you very much, Chair, for the invitation to come to the Committee and for the opportunity to speak about our inspection of how the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland recognises, assesses and responds to child criminal exploitation. As you said, I am joined today by Maureen Erne, who was the lead inspector for the inspection. It is timely that we are here today, given that yesterday was the annual National Child Exploitation Awareness Day, which encourages work across the United Kingdom to inform and educate people about child exploitation, to prevent it and to unite globally against it.

I hope that the Committee found our briefing paper helpful. I will take a few minutes to provide some further information about the inspection and its findings, after which Maureen and I will respond to any questions that members have.

All forms of child exploitation devastate children's lives and their families. It is critical that we all recognise child criminal exploitation as child abuse and that, like any form of exploitation, it is subject to a robust response in which safeguarding and protection needs are swiftly assessed and actions identified and abusers are rigorously pursued. We are mindful of the impact of any crime on all victims, in the knowledge that exploited children can be victims and perpetrators.

The inspection was undertaken as part Criminal Justice Inspection's annual inspection programme. Concern about the nature and scale of child criminal exploitation in Northern Ireland has been growing for some time and was brought into sharp focus by a number of events, including public disorder involving very young children.

Senior police leaders have stated that children are being exploited, including by individuals linked to paramilitarism and organised crime. Child criminal exploitation has been recognised as a priority in the current policing plan for the first time. Against that backdrop, a cross-departmental definition and two-year action plan were launched in September 2024, and the inspection sought to assess whether criminal justice arrangements were sufficiently developed to protect children and to pursue those who exploit them.

It was the first time that we had inspected child criminal exploitation in Northern Ireland. It built on earlier inspection work in related areas, including child sexual exploitation, modern slavery and human trafficking and a pilot joint inspection of child protection arrangements. Fieldwork for the inspection was conducted largely between March and June 2025 and ran in parallel with the follow-up review of the 2020 child sexual exploitation inspection.

While we recognised that tackling child criminal exploitation required a cross-departmental response, CJI's statutory remit focused on the effectiveness of the criminal justice system response. In particular, we examined the role of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, given its pivotal role in determining a child's pathway through the criminal justice system. Inspectors reviewed governance and policy arrangements, met a wide range of statutory and voluntary sector stakeholders and undertook detailed case-file audits. Stakeholder engagement informed the focus of the inspection and reflected the experiences and voices of children who are experiencing or are at risk of criminal exploitation.

Inspectors found that, while child criminal exploitation was recognised as a growing concern, the criminal justice system faced significant challenges in recognising, assessing and responding to it. At a strategic level, there was no agreed criminal justice system-wide framework to baseline responses, monitor outcomes or measure success. While criminal justice organisations contributed to cross-departmental work, there was a limited strategy or policy specifically addressing child criminal exploitation. Data collection was hampered by the absence of specific markers or flags on PSNI and Public Prosecution Service (PPS) IT and case-management systems, meaning that the criminal justice system did not understand the nature or scale of child criminal exploitation.

At an operational level, awareness of and understanding child criminal exploitation was inconsistent, resulting in opportunities to identify and respond to child criminal exploitation being missed. Case audits showed that children were often treated as suspects rather than as potential victims of abuse. Safeguarding referrals were not always made in a timely way, and professional curiosity was not consistently evidenced. Inappropriate or victim-blaming language was sometimes used about children in the records that we examined. The voice of the child was largely absent from police and prosecution records.

Inspectors were particularly concerned about the response to children reported missing. The PSNI did not have sufficient understanding of the relationship between missing episodes and child exploitation. During fieldwork, I raised those concerns directly with the Chief Constable and requested immediate action. In response, the Chief Constable swiftly initiated an internal review, and changes were made to police practice to improve safeguarding responses to missing children.

The inspection also found that the PSNI did not have a clear, adequately resourced delivery model for tackling child criminal exploitation across the organisation. While inspectors evidenced pockets of good practice by individuals and teams, they were not embedded or consistently applied. Pressures on neighbourhood policing and community engagement, previously identified in our 2024 inspection of community safety and local policing, were impacting on preventative work. Inspectors concluded that senior leaders must ensure that sufficient resources, including in the public protection branch, were provided to respond effectively to all forms of child exploitation and abuse.

Across the criminal justice system, awareness of the agreed definition of "child criminal exploitation" and understanding of the national referral mechanism (NRM) as a safeguarding tool for children who may be victims of exploitation were limited.

The findings closely mirrored those in our 2025 follow-up review of the child sexual exploitation inspection. That review found that, while there had been some positive developments, progress in achieving long-term improved outcomes for children remained limited. Inspectors assessed that both strategic recommendations were only partially achieved. Of the seven operational recommendations, one was achieved, four were partially achieved and two were not achieved. Persistent weaknesses around data, strategic oversight, responses to missing children and the absence of the child's voice were evident in both inspections.

The child criminal exploitation inspection made two strategic and two operational recommendations. All four were accepted, and action plans were provided to CJI in advance of publication. The recommendations focus on developing a criminal justice system-wide outcomes framework, strengthening the PSNI's organisational response to child criminal exploitation and improving responses to missing children. It is clear that the Department of Justice and relevant criminal justice organisations, regardless of individual organisational operational independence and governance arrangements, need to know what each organisation is doing to effectively tackle child exploitation, what impact it is having and how that system-wide data and information is used to better inform other Departments' individual and cross-government collaborative action and what difference that action is making in the lives of children at risk of or experiencing exploitation. How is it helping to deliver Programme for Government priorities to create safer communities and end violence against girls?

It is vital that the criminal justice system response to both child criminal exploitation and child sexual exploitation is effective. Many children experience multiple forms of exploitation simultaneously, and the same systemic weaknesses recur across both forms of abuse. If exploitation is not recognised early, children are criminalised rather than protected, harm escalates and perpetrators remain free to exploit and abuse others. A joined-up whole-system response is vital. Every professional who works with or is in contact with children needs to know the signs of exploitation, ask the right questions and speak out. Everyone needs to think about the children in our community, learn the signs of exploitation and speak out. Working together, we can make a difference and protect children from abuse.

We will continue to focus on criminal justice responses to the abuse and exploitation of children. Given the risks and impact identified, it is likely that a follow-up review will be included in a future inspection programme. Protecting children requires a consistent, child-centred response that listens to children, safeguards them effectively and pursues relentlessly those who exploit and abuse them.

I hope that that overview is helpful. Maureen and I will be pleased to respond to any questions that you might have.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): Thank you very much, Jacqui. We will go straight into questions from members.

Ms Sheerin: Thanks, Chair, and thanks to you both for coming in and for your presentation. As you mentioned in your briefing, one of the key takeaways was that children were being treated as suspects, as opposed to victims. Do you believe that some training could correct that, or does it reflect a deeper cultural problem in criminal justice organisations? Secondly, is the current age of criminal responsibility influencing whether children are treated as suspects when they are actually victims of coercion or abuse?

Ms Durkin: Often, when we do inspections, particularly around training, we find that the training is one thing, but embedding it in practice and how it is quality-assured to ensure that what needs to be done and applied is happening is where the gap can be. You can put any number of police officers or prosecutors through training, but, ultimately, you need to ensure and have the quality assurance mechanisms in place to ensure that things have improved and that is being transferred into practice.

What is the experience of children who come into contact with the criminal justice system? Certainly, the inspection found that there was a lack of awareness about child criminal exploitation. There were pockets of good practice — as we often find, there are some amazing police officers and prosecutors doing great work — but it was inconsistent and too patchy. There needs to be more of a radical relook to ensure that there is consistency across policing and to understand what the police response is across Northern Ireland, not just with particular communities, districts, police officers or prosecutors, to ensure that there is that consistency of approach across Northern Ireland.

When it comes to the age of criminal responsibility, regardless of what age a child is, children need to be seen as children. What we found through the inspection was the adultification of children, where there is a presumption that, if a child is over 16 and over the age of consent, they are not really looked at or responded to as though they are still a child. We found evidence of that in case files. You may have seen in the report some of the comments that were made and recorded about a child: that it was a lifestyle choice or that one was a "very resourceful young lady" and that type of thing. We want to get away from that and change attitudes and behaviours. We want there to be an understanding of what child criminal exploitation is, as well as other forms of exploitation, and a recognition of the fact that, often, more than one type of exploitation is going on. What is an effective policing, safeguarding and protection response for that child?

Ms Maureen Erne (Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland): I will add to that. Training and awareness is one of the four strands in the two-year CCE action plan that has been developed across the Departments. We know from its response to the report that the PSNI is working on developing a new learning package to address the raising of awareness of child criminal exploitation specifically. One observation that I would make is that it needs to be seen as being beyond the purview of just specialist teams in the public protection branch and include the front-line officers who respond daily to call-outs, so that they see children in front of them as opposed to suspects.

On the minimum age of criminal responsibility, our perspective, which goes back over many years of looking at youth interventions in CJI, is that it should be at least 14. That is what is recommended by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). That is an important contextual factor in this work.

Ms Sheerin: Yes, I thought so. Thank you.

Mr Kingston: Thank you for the report and for your attendance today. Can you explain to us the sort of criminal activity that you are talking about and what categories of exploitation you have looked into?

Ms Durkin: They are wide. The case file review that was carried out by inspectors was on a range of offending, such as carrying drugs or trafficking drugs. It can be stealing: children sent into shops or stores to steal to order. It can be public disorder, as we all know and as is widely reported in Northern Ireland. It can be antisocial behaviour as well. There are a range of offences, and the report says clearly that we need to know more about it.

We need to make sure that there is good information about children who either are being or have the potential to be criminally exploited, making sure that information is gathered about that so that we can get a better idea of what the problem profile in Northern Ireland is. We do not have that information at the minute. Because we do not know that, we need to know more about a lot of the offending, whether that is violence, theft, drug dealing or moving drugs around.

Mr Kingston: Does sexual exploitation also factor in?

Ms Durkin: Absolutely. We find that, sometimes, children who are involved in one form of exploitation are also involved in another. If a child is being sexually exploited, they may be involved in criminal exploitation as well, for example.

Mr Kingston: Did you have any engagement on early awareness with other sectors, including teachers, youth workers and social workers, who may be the first to become aware? Did you have any engagement on the role that they have in flagging concerns? I am sure that there are procedures in place, but have you any concerns about that information being flagged up at an early stage?

Ms Durkin: One thing that has been recognised is that this is not just a criminal justice issue; it is an issue for the whole of Northern Ireland. It is particularly an issue for Health, Education and Justice, but it is also for the Department for Communities, because of children who are in contact with different services at different touchpoints in their lives, such as children who have gone missing from school or children who need health and social services or children who are looked-after, although it is obviously not exclusively children who are looked-after. There needs to be a really effective cross-government approach, and that is why the structures and governance arrangements are in place, but we were focusing on making sure that the justice system is joined-up and collaborative and that we know exactly what is going on in each part of the criminal justice system in order to inform that wider cross-government approach.

You are right, however, to say that we all need to know what child criminal exploitation is and to call it out. It is easy: we can all be out in our communities, see children and sense that something is not quite right, but who will speak up and call that out, saying, "There's something not quite right here. What's going on? Why are those children out on their own at 11.00 pm or 12.00 midnight?" or whatever it happens to be? It is about professional or even community curiosity about what is going on and whom you can raise that with. As with most things, it does not belong just to the criminal justice system. Those children have probably been in contact with other services and other Departments, and, whether or not they are still in school, other people and other professionals should be looking out, asking, "Where is that child? Who are they with, and what are they up to? What do we need to do about that to make sure that there is an adequate safeguarding and protection response?".

Mr Kingston: I have one further question leading on from that. When children are involved in criminal activity because they have been exploited but are themselves committing the crimes, which agency should take the lead? Should it be the Youth Justice Agency, the police, social services or a mixture of those? Who should have fundamental responsibility?

Ms Durkin: A cross-departmental, cross-agency approach is needed. You have to see the child where they are; you have to look at the needs of that child and what is going on in their life. It may not be that one specific organisation takes the lead. You have to find out what is going on with the child, to be curious about that and to look at what interventions or supports are needed to better protect the child.

We found through the inspection that it is sometimes parents who exploit their children. We were careful to make sure that the case studies that we used in the report were anonymised, but some of them showed the potential for that. If it is a parent who is exploiting their child, who needs to intervene and what type of robust response is needed? It was not about a particular type of person or section of society, because it was so widespread; it is about making sure that there is consistency of approach, being alert to, "There's something going wrong here. How do we make sure that the services that need to intervene do so promptly?".

Ms Erne: The other thing is that awareness of the concept of criminal exploitation as a form of modern slavery has been low in Northern Ireland. There is now a devolved national referral mechanism pilot that brings together the health and social care trusts and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. That offers protections for children in terms of a defence where their offending has been committed as the direct result of trafficking. It is important to pursue those options.

Mr Kingston: What did you say it was called?

Ms Erne: The national referral mechanism.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): That is an important point. Did you see any differences in the way in which children were treated depending on their ethnicity?

Ms Erne: No. Ethnicity was documented in the police records, but our samples were too small to make any determination on that. However, we can see from the national referral mechanism data that most of the referrals related to children who were from outside Northern Ireland and had been trafficked to Northern Ireland. There was a low number of referrals of children who had been living in Northern Ireland. That is different from the rest of the United Kingdom, where the number of national referral mechanism referrals is seen as an indicator of the nature and scale of child criminal exploitation. That is not the case here, but it is hoped that, through the new devolved pilot, we will see improvements in the number of referrals and a general increase in awareness of the mechanism here.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): Jacqui, you said that there should be an onus on us all and all agencies to step in when we see something amiss, such as a child being out on the corner at 11.00 pm. That in itself is not a crime, and the child is not committing a crime, but we know that something is off. What is the trigger point? When should a constable, a Youth Justice Agency or Probation Board worker or someone else from across the range of services that are trained and expert in this regard intervene to ensure that a child who has been exploited does not come into the criminal justice system? It is bound to be a difficult one. If it is everybody's responsibility, it will be nobody's responsibility. Where do we get that in to find out about that child?

Ms Durkin: Having spoken to youth workers, we have found that they are very in tune with the children with whom they come into contact. There was that bit about the point at which you say that there needs to be a referral to social services or a discussion with local police. We have had conversations around this table before about the absence of neighbourhood policing, community policing, knowing what is going on and sharing that intelligence across the community, saying, "Why is that child with that adult person? Do we have concerns about that adult?". It is about more than one person gathering intelligence and saying, "There is something not quite right here. What do we do about it?". Youth workers are very in tune. They work closely with children, and they disclose things to them. They are well trained to know that, if there is any sense that a child is being abused or exploited, the pathways into getting additional support and advice are there.

Part of the shame is the reduction in resources for youth workers. They do amazing work. A youth worker is often the first person that a child will speak to when they are concerned about what is happening in their lives. That would go together with a more visible police presence and more community policing, as we envisaged, with police officers knowing what is going on in the community and what those children are doing. It is up to every responsible citizen, and I know that it is difficult. These days, people are reluctant to raise issues in case it comes back on them, but, when it comes to something like child abuse and child exploitation, we all have a responsibility to speak up.

Ms Ferguson: Thank you for your report. To be honest, it is gravely concerning, particularly given that many of the recommendations from your 2020 report on child sexual exploitation remain unachieved.

Jacqui, how confident are you that the system can respond effectively to the latest report? I get the fact that there has to be a cross-agency approach and it has to be at community level. Can you highlight any models of good practice at a community level in the North?

Ms Durkin: Before I get to that, I was encouraged by the response in getting action plans to the recommendations, but we know that they are only as good as how proactively they are implemented. I am encouraged. The narrative has changed around child criminal exploitation. There is more awareness now. I often find that there is a gap between organisations that say, at a strategic level, "This is a priority", but, when you scratch the surface — you do not have to scratch too much — at an operational service provision level, there is a gulf between what is printed and committed to as a priority and the experience of service users, children and adults in the system at the other end. It is important that we make sure that that priority translates into resource allocation and effective people to make sure that there is an adequate and effective response to any form of child exploitation. There was some good practice around the Executive programme on paramilitarism and organised crime (EPPOC). I cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head, Maureen, can you?

Ms Erne: There were multiple projects there, and the evaluations of those with respect to outcomes for children and young people were positive. In the cross-departmental action plan, there are strands of work that will, hopefully, develop practice in respect of a risk assessment tool and how responses will be developed across the agencies in terms of recognising CCE and ensuring that the support and safeguarding responses will be in place. That work is continuing at pace through the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland and through the children and young people strategy reporting groups.

Our ask is that those reporting groups set a robust baseline for what we want to achieve and how we monitor successful outcomes for children in Northern Ireland who have been exploited.

We inspect criminal justice; that is why our recommendation was particularly focused on the Department of Justice. We need to be able to understand, across the justice system, what it is achieving. What is the sum of all its parts? It is not about how much of everything somebody is doing. What does that result in as regards the number of offenders who are disrupted, the number of prosecutions, how many children have been helped and how have they been helped? Are children back in school? Are they back living safely in the community? Are they subject to fewer attacks? Is the number of missing episodes reducing? There is a raft of measures that need to be drawn together across the justice system to allow it to inform its conversations with its partners in the Department of Health and the Department of Education.

Ms Durkin: The PSNI was quoted yesterday as saying that it now has a laser focus, working with partners, on child criminal exploitation. We look forward to reviewing that and making sure of the impact not only of the recommendations but of how cross-departmental structures work together to make a difference and be a step change in tackling the exploitation of children across Northern Ireland.

Ms Ferguson: That is critical. You are looking at the criminal justice system, but this is a cross-departmental matter, involving Health, Education and Communities alongside Justice. As we all know, that can be even more difficult. This is a first step, so it is about how the agencies can work together, because you will need them all, and they are interdependent.

The situation is still alarming. We must do our best to protect all children who may be exploited. Thank you for the report: it has definitely flagged up serious concerns.

Ms Finnegan: Thank you very much for the report. It is certainly timely, given the ongoing Justice Bill and the proposed amendments that provide for new offences to tackle organised crime gangs. Some concerns were raised that the new offences lack a specific defence for children who may have been exploited. Does your experiences from the inspection raise concerns that children may need specific protection in legislation?

Ms Erne: Yes. We say in the report that, in the new offences, particularly on organised crime and the new child criminal exploitation and cuckooing offences, we would like the protections provided under the modern slavery and human trafficking legislation to be available to children. I am not sure whether those have been built into the proposed legislation.

Ms Finnegan: OK, thank you very much.

Ms Egan: Thank you for your presentation. Your report contains concerning findings. Paul touched on this, but I am concerned that so few children in Northern Ireland have been referred through the national referral mechanism, compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. I was hoping that you could speak a bit more about that and the reasons for it. Is it just a question of awareness and how it is used by the PSNI, or are there any other issues? Your data indicated that no male children had been referred. Given what we know about the levels of paramilitary exploitation of children, that is concerning. Perhaps you could speak to the impact of not using the national referral mechanism. That would be really helpful.

Ms Durkin: There is an issue with the legislation and the duty to refer in Northern Ireland. The legislation is different from that in the rest of the UK, and that is a concern. Earlier, Maureen mentioned a pilot that is under way. The data coming out of that since January is encouraging in terms of more local decision-making to refer children and the number of children — I think that there have been 14 — who have been referred.

Ms Erne: There have been 13 referrals since the start of January.

Ms Durkin: Yes, 13 referrals since January. When you compare that with the data in the report, you see what looks like a sea change in the consideration of cases for referral, which is encouraging. If the pilot model works well, it will be about making sure that we evaluate it properly and ask, "Where do we go from here?" when it comes to Northern Ireland using the referral mechanism as intended.

Ms Erne: Awareness of the national referral mechanism was low among the organisations that we met. I hope that, through the devolved pilot work, that will increase. At the time of the inspection, the defence under section 22 of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 had not been used because the legislation had not been commenced. There are lots of concerning elements with that.

The Department of Justice commissioned Ulster University and the International Organization for Migration to explore the reasons why the use of the NRM in relation to child criminal exploitation was so low in Northern Ireland, and we drew on that research in our report. It is about a lack of awareness and clarity in understanding CCE as a form of human trafficking leading to that association not being made and investigation of those offences therefore not being progressed in certain cases.

We also picked up from police officers and prosecutors a lack of clarity on what would be required to pursue those offences. If there were a cross-Justice approach, we could begin to look at the barriers and challenges in using those offences and defences and ask, "How can we unblock that?".

Ms Egan: Thank you. I agree with a lot of what you said. Awareness of the NRM is low among many agencies here.

I have one other question. Overall, your most recent inspection found that there had not been much progress since the previous report in 2020. How have you engaged with agencies, particularly the PSNI, since your most recent report? How confident are you that the actions will be taken forward?

Ms Durkin: All the recommendations were accepted, and we received action plans. The area is so high-harm and high-risk that I cannot imagine that we will not come back to it in a follow-up review of the report so that we can be sure of what has been done. There is concern about what happens after the immediate post-report period, when the issue has a high profile and it looks encouragingly as though things are starting off well. However, it is about momentum and the commitment to keeping going.

I am assured by the fact that the Policing Board, as a governance and oversight mechanism for the police, gets regular reports on delivery and achievement against its tackling child criminal exploitation priority. There are checks and balances outside the inspection process that ask how things are improving, what outcomes we are achieving, whether we understand the scale of child criminal exploitation in Northern Ireland and how the justice system works with others to make sure that there is a whole-system, collaborative response.

Ms Egan: That is really helpful. Thank you very much.

Mr Bradley: Thank you very much for your presentation; I found it interesting. It is the first time that there has been a dedicated inspection of child criminal exploitation. There is no baseline, and, without that, it is hard to gauge whether it will be successful.

You have engaged with the PSNI. Have you had any engagement with the PPS, the Youth Justice Agency, the Department of Justice or, recognising that sorting this out is a multi-agency task, the Department of Health or the Department of Education?

Ms Durkin: Through this inspection and others, we have had engagement with the main criminal justice organisations. However, we also have contact with the Youth Justice Agency, voluntary and community sector groups and youth workers, whom I mentioned. The difficulty is that I do not have the statutory remit to inspect the Department of Health or the Department of Education. It is for the cross-government and cross-departmental governance mechanisms that are in place to make sure that there is a robust response. There is a cross-departmental committee chaired by a senior police officer to make sure that responses to child criminal exploitation across Northern Ireland are joined up.

We are focused on making sure that the criminal justice system knows what is going on. We have all seen footage, heard concerns and spoken to members and leaders of community organisations. I am sure that each member here does that all the time. Those people know what is going on, but nobody has a grip on the extent or scale of it to say, "How do we make sure that we respond effectively?". Time is short. Childhood is short. If you do not intervene with a child early, lifelong damage can be done, and that child will have real issues with attainment and their mental and physical health. It is really important that not only the criminal justice system but every part of government step up to recognise what is happening in our community and to work together to do something about it.

You mentioned working with Health. We did the pilot on joint child protection inspection in the Southern Health and Social Care Trust area with the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority and the Education and Training Inspectorate. What I want to happen in the development of inspections is more joint inspection by organisations that inspect health and education provision and those that do criminal justice inspections to make sure that, whatever the future model of provision or the services that are developed in response, a joined-up child protection inspection process is put in place as well. That is, however, at development stage. We did the pilot, and it is taking some time to decide what the outworkings of the Ray Jones report will look like. However, a joined-up inspection regime is as important as having joined-up services so that we can make sure that we can provide the assurance that they operate well. Given the pilot that we undertook and our current legislative remit, it is important that we look to develop that in the future.

Ms Erne: Jacqui said that we were encouraged by the response to the report that we received from the Police Service. We know that, in the interim, it has adopted the definition of child criminal exploitation that was developed. It is working to develop a flag and markers in its systems to identify children who are at risk or are experiencing CCE. There are now indicators in the 'Northern Ireland Policing Plan 2025-2030'. It will make reports to the Policing Board, and those will include the number of NRM referrals made by the police. The Police Service is working with the Public Prosecution Service to improve the quality of information relating to child criminal exploitation that is transferred from police to prosecutors. That is all encouraging. We hope to see the outworkings of that at a future inspection. It lays the foundation for getting some handle on the nature and scale of the problem across Northern Ireland.

Mr Bradley: I have one more quick point, Chair, with your permission.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): OK.

Mr Bradley: Some members have already mentioned the work that was initiated in 2021 and the ongoing work. That means that you are not starting from a baseline of zero and that you already have some institutional momentum that can be accelerated. I wish you well in that, and I thank you so much for that valuable presentation.

Ms Durkin: Thank you very much.

Mr Kingston: This question is similar to one that I asked earlier, but I want to speak to it from the perspective of a real-life situation. I represent North Belfast. At interface areas, there are regular outbreaks of trouble often involving children. Whenever I drive up the Crumlin Road, there is a good chance that I will see groups of children hanging around. They are almost waiting for one another. That can result in attacks on homes, stones being thrown across roads and so on. Children from maybe 10 years old and upwards may be involved.

I go to meetings with community representatives, and I am meeting the police on what should be done about it and how they should respond to it. In a situation such as that, we do not know whether an adult is sending the children out to do it, in which case they are being exploited, or whether the children are just engaging in recreational rioting. We do not know what the police response should be when they apprehend the children involved and whether they should take the children home to their parents. They hope that the parents will react in a certain way, although parents may not support bringing the activity to an end.

I ask again about the agencies involved. Social services have an important role to play, and parents need to be aware of their responsibilities. When it comes to practical situations such as that, I think of the police, the Youth Justice Agency, social services and any other such services; for example, schools, community organisations and youth workers could play a role. What is your view on how that sort of situation could be best responded to?

Ms Durkin: The report is clear about having a child-centred approach. We have found it to be about listening to the voice of the child and a trusted adult — that might not be a police officer; it might be a social worker, a teacher or another trusted adult — to find out what is going on with that child and whether somebody sent them out to riot or somebody told their parents to send them out to riot and whether the child is involved in other antisocial behaviour or that is completely out of character for them. It is difficult to be generalist about the solution or the response. It will [Interruption.]

Oh.

Mr Kingston: I think that it is Maurice.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): I hope that whoever is at the other end of that is OK. [Laughter.]

Mr Kingston: Maurice's microphone [Inaudible.]

Mr Bradley: Sorry.

Ms Durkin: It is all right. Maurice does not agree with what we were saying. [Laughter.]

I know that that does not sound like an answer, but, in truth, it is. It depends on what is going on with the child and their family, what pressures they might be under and what is happening around them. It is about making sure that somebody intervenes to find out what is happening and what the best support or response is for the child. Taking them into a police station to question them, for example, might not be the right thing for them. I think, Maureen, that I am right in saying that we found that the Youth Justice Agency was probably the only organisation that recognised what that kind of response might look like and had looked at what it might do in that space. That was encouraging.

It is difficult. We have all seen such things happen and pictures of children rioting and thought, "Where are the parents?" or, "Why is that child being allowed to do that?". It is very much about seeing the child as a child, rather than saying, "There's somebody throwing a brick at a car", or at a police Land Rover or whatever it happens to be. We understand that it is sometimes difficult to do that. However, if the child does not get an intervention at the right time, there will be lifelong consequences for them.

Ms Erne: There are opportunities through the work that the custodial services in the Youth Justice Agency do on earlier-stage diversions, whereby they seek to avoid the criminalisation of children and their being drawn into the justice system. The research definitely indicates that the earlier a child engages with the criminal justice system, the more likely they are to be drawn into it as they get older. What we are really talking about in that space is the step before: doing preventative work before they are even involved. That is certainly a key strand of the two-year action plan that is being developed at the minute.

Mr Kingston: Every time I am involved in conversations about this issue, I feel that social services have an important role to play —

Ms Durkin: Yes.

Mr Kingston: — in impressing upon parents their responsibilities and where they are neglecting those responsibilities. OK, thank you.

Mr Beattie: I will be brief. I had not intended to come in, but I have heard the discussion. Thank you for your presentation, Jacqui; as ever, it was useful and telling.

We never talk about the victim; we always seem to miss the victim. I know that we are talking about child exploitation, but, if a child has been exploited into criminality, there will be a victim at the other end. What are we doing to understand the impact on the victim? In some cases, we are not talking about 10-, 12- or 14-year-olds; we are talking about 17-year-olds whom, whether we like it or not, people refer to as "young adults". They may be involved in criminality where there is a victim. How do we support the child who has been exploited but also support those who have been made a victim and, hopefully, help the victim to understand the crime that has been perpetrated against them by somebody who has been dragged into an exploitative relationship with somebody else?

Ms Durkin: In my opening statement, I was clear that we recognise that victims are involved in circumstances where children who are being exploited have committed offences. However, we also find that those children can often be victims themselves, so there is that duality. Sometimes, depending on the victim or the crime, the victim wants a more restorative approach to the child. If they are 17, they are not an adult; they are still a child. That is a difficulty, because there is a long road for some of those children. Time and time again, as is clear from some of the cases reviewed in the case study, children might have been involved or in contact with the police 30 or 40 times before they turned 17. Who was making the effective interventions to safeguard and respond to the abuse of the child before they turned 17? When those children turn 18, they are told, "Right, you are an adult now", and to forget about everything that has gone before. What is the transition into the adult system?

I understand how difficult it can be for some victims, but not every victim wants a child to be prosecuted and to have a conviction. It depends on their response. We find that there is often a long road that leads to that point, and there are opportunities for interventions that have not been taken. I am in no way negating the impact of crime on any victim, but not every victim wants to see a child prosecuted and have a criminal record, potentially denying them life choices in future. That transition — once you turn 18, that is it — is an area that needs to be looked at not only by the criminal justice system but by social services, given how so many young adults struggle in that space.

Mr Beattie: I am sorry, Jacqui; I was not for a moment suggesting that you were minimising victims. I just felt that it needed to be spoken about a bit more from a victim's perspective. You are absolutely right: we are still talking about the child.

The whole point of looking at this and the strategy is about how we get upstream to divert them before they get into criminality at a later age. That is really what I am talking about. It is difficult when you are the victim and the perpetrators are 17 years old and there is continuous criminality by such individuals, including, perhaps, antisocial behaviour. That is where there is sometimes a real difficulty with the perceptions that some have about what we are trying to achieve. Nobody wants to criminalise children in any shape or form. I certainly do not.

Ms Durkin: Absolutely. There is a point to be made about early intervention and education. We are now, at last, at a point where we have an agreed definition. The definition, in and of itself, will mean nothing unless it translates into effective assessment, intervention and services provided for support, and, as I said, professional curiosity about stepping up and speaking out on what happens with a child.

It is difficult for everyone. I recognise how difficult it is for police officers and prosecutors when they are in contact with children, particularly those who constantly go missing but are treated as a cause for concern rather than as a missing child and saying, "That's just how they are," rather than asking, "Why has that child been missing from the children's home for three or four days? Did we actually get somebody whom they might trust to ask them, 'Who were you with, and what were you doing?'". Are we pursuing the people whom they have been with? What we sometimes found from the case files was, "Oh, right. They're back and they're safe and well. Nothing to see here; move on" — until the next time they went missing.

There are lots of opportunities to intervene earlier upstream to recognise the signs and make sure that everybody who is in contact with those children, whether a youth worker, teacher, police officer or youth justice worker, says, "There is something not quite right here" from what they are disclosing or not disclosing, whom they are associating with or to notice that they suddenly have a couple of phones on the go or that they are not going to school any more. We recognise that there are signs to say, "There's something not right here", so who speaks out and steps up?

Ms Erne: Some case studies show that there were early opportunities to intervene. The earlier exploitation is identified and a safeguarding response placed around the child, the less likely it is that there will be victims of subsequent offending.

Mr Beattie: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Frew): Thank you very much, Jacqui and Maureen, for your presentation and your answers. It has been very helpful, so thank you for your time.