Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I refer members to the tabled papers: the Adult Protection Bill, the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM) and an updated list of Department and Committee amendments. I will proceed through the clauses and put the Questions formally. If there is no consensus on a Question, I will ask members to vote through a show of hands, and the Clerk will confirm the result of each vote. You will have to put up with hearing my voice a lot this morning.

Mrs Dodds: Before we begin, I want to say that, obviously, we will support the Committee amendments and the tabled departmental amendments, but we will reserve our position on the clauses, first, because we are waiting for additional legal advice on some of them, which we will talk about as we go through them; and, secondly, because the Bill needs to be seen in light of the outcome of the Muckamore inquiry, which means that we may have to table further amendments after we know what that outcome is. We support the Bill and will be happy to support the Committee amendments and so on, but we will reserve our position on all the clauses this morning.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): For clarity, when you say "we", you are talking about the DUP.

Mrs Dodds: The DUP. Alan and I will reserve our position.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): OK. Thank you.

Mr McGrath: May I get a quick explanation of where we sit with that? We will go through the Bill clause by clause and agree with certain things, but it seems pretty odd to do that if we all say that we will reserve judgement on some of those things. I agree with Diane, so I do not mean that in an accusing way. There are clauses that, in light of other things, we may need to change. Is our going through the Bill clause by clause and agreeing with it something that we have to do, given that it is entirely acceptable for us to say, "We agree with all of this, but, wink wink, we may not, and we may have to come back to it later"? How does that process work?

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I will invite the Clerk to come in on that. We have had lengthy discussions, however. We are agreeing the Committee's position today, but, as with any Bill, that does not stop individual members or parties suggesting amendments or taking a different position on anything at Consideration Stage or Further Consideration Stage. We will set that out clearly. Even from the Committee's point of view, we have done that on a number of clauses and have said that we are waiting for legal advice or further information and that we may change or add amendments on that basis. The Committee has taken that position on some clauses, but, by and large, we are agreeing the Committee's position today. That does not stop an individual member or an MLA doing something different, if they feel that they need to or want to, at Consideration Stage or Further Consideration Stage. Am I correct in all that?

The Committee Clerk: Absolutely, Chair. The Committee can also change its position. As part of the clause-by-clause process, we report on the information that we have before us at any given time. Once new information comes to light, the Committee is perfectly entitled to look at that information and change its position. Formal clause-by-clause consideration does not translate into anything in the Chamber. In the Chamber, there will be a vote on each clause at Consideration Stage. The Committee's clause-by-clause consideration is to inform other Members who are not on the Committee about the Committee's consideration of the information that it had at the time. I imagine that, once further information comes, we will do further consideration and may produce an addendum report that highlights other positions or amendments. Agreeing something today does not mean that you are agreeing it as it goes through the Assembly. It is very much a snapshot of the information that the Committee has at this time, and the Committee reserves the right to table further amendments, if further information makes that necessary.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I will mention that at various points as we go through the process, because we have decided not to take a position on some clauses. If you have read the Committee report, which, I know, you all have, you will have seen that it has many caveats.

I will move on. I will start by saying that further pertinent information is required in order to come to a position on such clauses, which will be considered once that information is received. The Committee and members reserve the right to bring forward further amendments on receipt of legal advice on the publication of the Muckamore Abbey Hospital inquiry. There are a number of clauses on which the Committee has agreed that it will not take a position until the inquiry report is published. I will advise members of those clauses when we get to them.

Are there any other questions in relation to the process? No? OK.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There was a proposed Committee amendment. However, as we heard this morning, hopefully, the Committee is agreed that we will not take that amendment forward. Therefore, there are no prepared amendments to the clause. Is everybody content with that? Just for the record, I need to hear a bit of agreement.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment regarding independent advocates. That is amendment No 2 in the tabled amendments paper. This amendment also relates to clauses 18 and 26:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed two amendments, and I will take them in turn.

The first is amendment No 3 in the tabled amendments paper and will replace the list of named professions with the names of legislation under which those professions fall.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed a second amendment to clause 4, which is to include the Prison Service and clarify that clauses regarding the removal of a person do not apply to those who are detained in a prison or young offenders centre.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): OK, everybody is content.

Mr McGrath: I just want to register that I am still uneasy about that one. The Department is still to come back to us on some of the legal advice and other bits and pieces. I am content to say —.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): It is all in the report.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are no proposed amendments. I advise that the Committee has agreed to an amendment to clause 50, which relates to clauses 5 to 8, and I will come to that later.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I will group clauses 6 to 9. There are no amendments to any of those.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment, which is amendment No 5 in the tabled amendments paper, confirming that this clause does not apply to those under an assessment order or in prison or a young offenders centre:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment to this clause, which is amendment No 6 in the tabled amendments paper. It is similar to clause 10. It clarifies that this does not apply to an adult detained in a prison or young offenders centre:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are no amendments to clauses 12 to 17, so I will group them.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment to clause 18, as requested by the Committee. It is amendment No 7 in the tabled amendments paper:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are no amendments to clauses 20 and 21, so I will group them.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are four proposed amendments to clause 22. There are two departmental amendments, which are amendment Nos 8 and 9 in the tabled amendments paper, and those are to satisfy concerns that the time frame for review of guidance is too vague. There are also two Committee amendments, which are amendment Nos 10 and 11 in the tabled amendments paper. I will address each of those amendments.

Departmental amendment No 8 is:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The second departmental amendment is amendment No 9. The Committee suggested that a regulator such as the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) should be consulted:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The third amendment is a Committee amendment, which is amendment No 10:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The fourth amendment is a Committee amendment, which is amendment No 11 and also relates to the Adult Protection Board:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are no amendments to clauses 23 to 25, so I will group them.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): There are three proposed departmental amendments to clause 26. The amendments were requested by the Committee to address our concerns with regard to independent advocates. I refer members to amendment Nos 12 to 14 in their tabled papers. They are lengthy, so I will not read them out. We put a lot of work into them.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): No amendments are proposed to clauses 27 to 29. I will group them for the Question.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): Two amendments are proposed to clause 30 — amendment Nos 15 and 16 — one from the Department and one from the Committee. I refer members to the departmental amendment, which is an amendment to remove the Patient and Client Council (PCC), at its request, from the board membership.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The second amendment is a Committee amendment that will disqualify representatives of the persons or bodies listed in clause 30(3) from being appointed as chair of the Adult Protection Board.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I advise members that the Department has proposed amendment No 17 to clause 32, which includes the name change to "adult protection learning reviews", the specification of the review process and the requirement for the Adult Protection Board to include details of reviews in its annual report.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department intends to table proposed new clause 32A, "Adult protection learning reviews", which will provide additional detail on the arrangements for adult protection learning reviews. Amendment No 18 in members' tabled papers inserts that proposed clause.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I will put the Question that the Committee is content to recommend to the Assembly that new clause 32A be added to the Bill.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): No amendments are proposed to clause 33. It was agreed that no position would be taken until the Committee received further legal advice on the clause. That being the case, I will not put the Question on the clause to the Committee. Is the Committee content with that approach?

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment to clause 34, which relates to new clause 32A. That is amendment No 19 in members' tabled papers and states:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): No amendments are proposed to clauses 35 to 42, so I suggest that we group those clauses for the purpose of putting the Question.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): OK. We have agreed contentness.

The Committee has agreed not to take a position on clauses 43 to 47 until the publication of the Muckamore Abbey Hospital inquiry report. Those are the clauses regarding CCTV. If members are content, I will not put the Question on clauses 43 to 47.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): The Department has proposed an amendment to insert new clause 47A, "Vulnerable Adults; Regulated Activity", which will allow for procedural changes and solve an issue with AccessNI. This is amendment No 20. Even though we have not taken a position on clause No 47 to this point, is the Committee content with the amendment to insert new clause 47A?

The Committee Clerk: Chair, that would then become clause No 48 when everything shifts down a wee bit.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): Yes, so it is not taking a position.

I will put the Question that the Committee is content to recommend to the Assembly that new clause No 47A be added to the Bill?

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): Thank you. Members indicated contentness. I do not know whether "contentness" is a word, but it is now my new favourite word.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): New clause No 48A, "Procedures for Regulations Under Section 44." The Committee has agreed to a new clause to enhance the level of Assembly control in respect of any draft regulations laid under clause 44. We put a lot of time and effort into that. I refer members to new clause 48A, amendment No 21 in tabled amendment papers. Is the Committee content with the amendment to insert a new clause to enhance the level of Assembly control in respect of any draft regulations laid under clause No 44? We know what this is about. The Committee can withdraw the amendment depending on any future decisions in relation to clauses 43 and 47.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): I will put the Question that the Committee is content to recommend to the Assembly that new clause 48A be added to the Bill.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): Again, we put a bit of time and effort into this. The Committee proposed an amendment to the clause to require section 26 to be commenced at the same time as or before sections 5 to 8 came into operation. That is Committee amendment No 22:

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): Just for the benefit of anyone who is watching, I will say that we went through that very quickly, but this is after months of taking evidence, deliberation and understanding exactly what it is that we are doing. This is vital legislation. The Committee has done a very good piece of work, and I want to thank all members for that. If you had only watched this session, however, you would have thought that we were flying through the Bill and not taking it as seriously as we should.

Miss McAllister: Chair, I agree that there were months of difficult but important scrutiny work. It is really complex Bill that was drafted for very good reasons. I thank the entire staff team for their support on it. From my perspective, that was excellent and made my first Committee Stage scrutiny a smooth process. We have done great work, so thanks to the team and to all of the people who came to give evidence.

The Chairperson (Mr McGuigan): We will go into closed session to deal with the draft report, and all of that will be in our draft report. It is good to put on record that the Committee staff have been absolutely brilliant. I should also put on record that we are not finished. There is an awful lot of work still to be done by the Committee on this Bill.

Miss McAllister: I just wanted to embarrass them in public session.