Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Members, you will recall that, last week, we agreed to request that Building Control NI and Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) provide the Committee with a paper with more detail on the specifics of their concerns and their proposed amendments on a clause-by-clause basis. That response has now been received, and it has also been provided to officials, who will now respond to the amendment requests.

I thank Simon Webb and Mark Allison for attending the Committee again. Feel free to brief the Committee.

Mr Simon Webb (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs): Thank you, Chair, and good morning, everyone.

The Chair referenced the report that has been received from NILGA, which the Committee helpfully requested. I thank the Committee for that. The report has brought a clear focus to the issues that need to be addressed.

By way of correction, the report refers to the "Draft Dilapidations Bill" in its title. That issue has cropped up before. "Dilapidations" is something slightly different; it is a specific area of law that relates to breaches of lease obligations. I want to be clear on that, because it is the Dilapidation Bill. It is not just a case of using the plural; it is a very different thing.

If the Committee is happy for me to do so, I will go through each of the recommendations in the NILGA report and state the Department's response.

The first three recommendations relate to clauses 1(1), 2(2)(c) and 7(1). The Department will consider the proposed amendments further and revert to the Committee. Bearing in mind that we received the NILGA report only yesterday, we will need a little more time to address the first three recommendations. We are familiar with the wording of the Scottish legislation that the report references, which is from section 29 of the Building (Scotland) Act 2003, where the danger is linked specifically:

The first three recommendations are all minor, as far as we can see. As I said, we will revert to the Committee once we have had time to consider them further.

Recommendation 4 is to:

It asks for specific reference to be made to section 24(2)(e) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954. That is already provided for under clause 21(7) of the Bill, which references section 24 of the Interpretation Act.

Recommendation 5 relates to clause 10(4) and the term "give notice". The recommendation also refers to the term "serve notice". Those terms are different from serving a notice. To "serve a notice" refers specifically to the notices that are named in the Bill, such as a maintenance notice, a dilapidation notice, a dangerous structure notice and a defective premises notice. The wording in clause 10 is therefore fine: it already draws a distinction between "give notice" and "serve a notice".

That has a knock-on effect for the next two recommendations from NILGA, recommendations 6 and 7. Recommendations 6 and 7 essentially both ask for the same thing to be done, which is to exclude clause 10 from clause 22(1). Clause 22 relates to appeals. The point there is that the grounds for appeal under clause 10(8) are limited. The Bill states the circumstances in which an appeal can be made, and the appeal is permitted only against the works. There is no appeal against the notice under clause 10(8), and that is why clause 22(1) does not apply in the case of emergency provisions. Clause 22(1) talks specifically about appealing against a notice, but no notice is involved in clause 10(8). Clause 22(1) is therefore not applicable. That addresses recommendations 6 and 7.

Recommendation 8 relates to clause 10(6), and, again, that is provided for under clause 21(7) in the Bill, which is the reference to section 24(2)(e) of the Interpretation Act.

Recommendation 9 relates to clause 12(4), which deals with cost recovery for fencing or security to protect the public under emergency action. Clause 12(4) already provides for what NILGA is asking for, because the costs become non-recoverable only from the point at which the danger is removed. That is explicit in the Bill.

Recommendation 10 is not a proposed amendment as such. NILGA has said that the Department must provide councils with clarification on:

We have sought advice on that and understand that councils already have similar powers under existing provisions. Article 61 of the Waste and Contaminated Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 and article 33 of the Clean Air (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 already refer to charges, and there are the subsequent powers around the Conveyancing Act 1881, with which members will be familiar. Our understanding is that councils' legal advisers should be able to provide council officials with more insight on how those powers operate in practice.

Finally, recommendation 11 proposed amendments to clauses 18 and 24. NILGA has asked for a specific reference to "land and buildings", as opposed to just "land". That, however, is already provided for in section 45 of the Interpretation Act, which makes it clear that "land" includes buildings and other structures.

The Department is therefore happy that no substantial amendments to the Bill are required following NILGA's response. We will come back to the Committee on recommendations 1 to 3 very shortly. That is everything, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): The Committee is running out of time. It is therefore imperative that we get that information as quickly as possible to allow us to complete our deliberations and scrutinise the proposed amendments to determine whether we are satisfied or needs to table amendments to the Bill.

Has the Department provided NILGA and Building Control NI with a response? Are they still waiting for a substantive reply from you, or, on the basis of the communication that you have had with them, are they broadly satisfied with your assessment?

Mr Webb: A number of the points that we have made today will have been addressed verbally in our meetings with NILGA and Building Control officials. Recommendations 6, 7 and 9 —.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Just so that you know, Simon, your numbering is sightly out of kilter with the numbering that we have.

The Committee Clerk: Chair, here is the Clerk's memo, which summarises the recommendations.

Mr Webb: I will refer to the clauses, then.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): If you do not mind.

Mr Webb: No problem.

The recommendations to add to clause 22(1) and to amend clause 10(8) were addressed in writing to NILGA on 9 April. Written advice on amending clause 12(4) was provided more recently, on 17 April. By and large, the other issues have been addressed verbally. We have not officially gone back in writing to NILGA in response to yesterday's paper, however.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): OK. I appreciate that.

Do members have any questions or queries?

Mr Wilson: When you say that you have "gone back" to NILGA, what does that mean? Did you do so via email or have a face-to-face discussion?

Mr Webb: I am happy to provide written confirmation of the Department's preferred approach to dealing with the proposed amendments from NILGA and Building Control NI. It will feature in your Committee report. Following that, we will pick up the issues again with the Minister. At official level, however, we are happy to share our responses in writing to NILGA with the Committee.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): No other members have indicated to ask questions or raise queries.

Mark and Simon, you guys will remain available to us. We will now move into closed session to discuss further the issues as a Committee, after which we may bring you back in. Is that OK?

Mr Webb: Absolutely. We will go and get a cup of tea.

The Chairperson (Mr Butler): Thank you so much.