Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I welcome Alison, Ryan and David from DFI. Are members content that this session be recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I invite the officials to make an opening statement of up to 10 minutes, after which members will ask questions. Alison, it is over to you.

Ms Alison Clydesdale (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you. Good morning, Chair and members. Thank you for the invitation to brief the Committee on the consultation on a grant scheme to support reservoir managers with the initial supervision and inspection requirements of the Reservoirs Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. I am joined by Ryan Robinson, head of my division's flooding and drainage policy team, and David Courtenay, from our reservoirs authority and engagement team in DFI Rivers.

Although we are here to discuss the public consultation on a grant scheme to support reservoir managers, I thought that, for any new Committee members, it would be helpful to provide a brief recap on the purpose of the 2015 Act. The Northern Ireland Assembly agreed the Reservoirs Bill in 2015, and, following Royal Assent, it came into force as the Reservoirs Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. However, statutory responsibility for the 2015 Act did not transfer to DFI until 2021, due to a delay in the required transfer functions order being made. This policy area has stretched over multiple Assembly mandates and various Committees, but only a small number of sections of the 2015 Act were commenced following Royal Assent in 2015.

The Act introduces a proportionate regulatory and management framework for controlled reservoirs to protect people, the environment, the economy and areas of cultural heritage from the risk of flooding due to an uncontrolled release of water from a reservoir. The Act also provides that a reservoir manager be responsible for reservoir safety. Generally, the reservoir manager is the person who manages or operates the reservoir. If no one manages or operates the reservoir, by default, the reservoir owner is the reservoir manager. The Act requires the managers of all controlled reservoirs to register the reservoir with the Department and that the Department give each controlled reservoir a reservoir designation.

In the intervening period since 2015, DFI Rivers directorate has been limited to reminding reservoir managers of their responsibility under common law. That engagement has resulted in a number of reservoir managers taking action to improve the safety of their reservoirs, but some have not. Therefore, a public safety risk remains. It is important to note that, without the Act being further commenced, the Department is currently unable to provide sufficient assurance on the condition, management or maintenance of many reservoirs. That leaves a gap in the Department's ability to mitigate all flood risks here and to regulate reservoir managers, who have responsibility for their structures. Reservoir managers should be seeking to mitigate the potential catastrophic impacts of reservoir failures and prevent uncontrolled water releases from dam failures and the risk to life and property that those present.

On population affected, the Act, once fully commenced, will regulate the safety of controlled reservoirs to mitigate the possible flood risk to the approximately 83,000 people who live and work in the inundation areas of the 172 potential controlled reservoirs that the Department is currently aware of. The risk is real. The risk is continuing and likely worsening in some cases. Without the full commencement of the Act, the Department does not have the necessary means to regulate reservoir safety properly.

The Department's proposals to further implement the Reservoirs Act were consulted on between November 2021 and January 2022. Upon restoration of the Assembly in March 2024, this Committee was provided with the consultation report. Subsequently, in October 2024, the Executive approved the secondary legislation necessary to further implement the Act. The secondary legislation, which remains under scrutiny by members here, includes five pieces of secondary legislation that are intertwined and interconnected; two commencement orders that, between them, will commence 140 sections of the Act; a further order to commission a panel of engineers; and two sets of secondary regulations that set out the operational details of the regulatory framework.

One of the main issues raised in the consultation process on the further commencement of the Act was a concern about the costs associated with the introduction of the legislation. Both the then Minister and our present Minister recognised those concerns and that costs will be incurred for supervision and initial inspection by specialist engineers. Therefore, to address those concerns, the suite of secondary legislation that the Committee continues to scrutinise includes the power to give DFI the ability to develop a grant scheme to help reservoir managers to mitigate some of the costs of compliance. That consultation on a grant scheme further addresses the concern raised by respondents. However, it is important to note that it is section 114 of the Act that provides the Department with the permissive power, by regulation, to provide for the payment of a grant. The grant scheme cannot be established until such time as the legislation giving the Department the powers to establish the grant scheme is in place. In addition, reservoir managers are required to register the reservoirs and apply for a designation before they are eligible to apply for a grant. Registration and designation cannot take place until such time as the legislation is in place.

It is also important to clarify that the Department has done all that is reasonable in the absence of the full commencement of the Act. To go further and intervene in the management of those structures would overextend our responsibilities.

I will pass over to Ryan to present a brief summary of the purpose and findings of the consultation report on the grant scheme. He has a few slides.

Mr Ryan Robinson (Department for Infrastructure): Folks, can you see the slides there? I have loaded the presentation.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Not yet. Ah, there we go.

Mr Robinson: Thank you, Alison. Folks, as Alison said, I will have a brief look at the consultation and some of its headline findings. If you bear with me, I have a couple of slides to go through.

Generally, there was a low response to the consultation: 16 responses in total from a known number of 98 reservoir managers across 172 controlled reservoirs in the North. The respondents included public-sector organisations, such as local councils and Northern Ireland Water (NIW), privately owned reservoirs and the angling community, which has been in regular contact with this Committee and us through the years about the secondary legislation and the potential grant scheme.

If we look at the replies by sector, we see that four of the 16 responses were from public-sector organisations. The other 75% of responses were from what we call the "private and non-for-profit" sector, which we had anticipated, given that that group has for some time been raising concerns about the financial impact of the legislation.

In a few of the headline findings from the response to the consultation, we saw clear support for or, indeed, opposition to the Department's proposals. The first two findings on the slide show considerable support for the proposals, with 11 of the 16 respondents supporting the proposal that only reservoirs that are not managed by a public-sector organisation be eligible for a grant, and 10 of the 16 supporting the proposal that the reservoir must be designated as "high" or "medium" consequence.

In the next two findings, we see opposition to the Department's proposals. Thirteen of the 16 respondents opposed the proposal that reservoir managers must demonstrate a financial need for grant support, and 12 were opposed to the Department's method of assessing affordability.

There was a more mixed response to the next two questions. Six of the respondents agreed and eight disagreed with the maximum level of funding for initial inspection costs being set at £10,000, while two respondents did not answer the question. We were keen to hear reservoir managers' thoughts on how the grant should be paid, and the response was interesting. Nine respondents were in favour of its being paid to the engineers who did the work, and five wanted it to be paid directly to reservoir managers. Again, two respondents did not answer the question.

The Department welcomes the constructive feedback provided by the respondents. Their views will help to inform the business case for the grant scheme. The Minister has taken those views into account. Given the ongoing budgetary constraints and the requirements of 'Managing Public Money NI' (MPMNI) on ensuring best value for money and affordability, however, the Minister's intention is to introduce a grant scheme that will be available for reservoirs designated as high or medium consequence that are not managed by public-sector organisations. Under the scheme, reservoir managers will be required to demonstrate financial need. Please note that a grant scheme cannot be implemented until the secondary legislation that is with the Committee for its consideration is implemented.

We hope that members found that summary helpful, and we welcome questions. As a reminder, however, you will appreciate that we may not be able to answer queries on individual reservoirs or reservoir managers if they fall under the 'National Protocol for Reservoir Information and Flood Maps'.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you very much for that summary. I have a few questions, and you can probably expect other Committee members to pick things up.

You mentioned — I wrote it down — that we have 172 controlled reservoirs in Northern Ireland. Is that right?

Mr Robinson: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. The number of consultation responses is relatively low. Does the Department have a view on why that is?

Ms Clydesdale: Of the 172 reservoirs, 93 are managed by Northern Ireland Water, so they take up quite a chunk of the 172 —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Those should be taken out.

Ms Clydesdale: — and Northern Ireland Water responded. Forty-five of the reservoirs are in private ownership, 18 are managed by councils, 12 are managed by not-for-profit organisations, and eight are managed by Departments. The vast majority of respondents were from the not-for-profit sector.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Of those, — the 45, 18, 12 and eight — which ones were not for profit?

Mr Robinson: There are 44 reservoirs that we deem to be private, and nine are in the not-for-profit category.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK.

Mr Robinson: There are 53 altogether in the private and not-for-profit sector.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Fine. Do we rely on any of the reservoirs that we are talking about for drinking water, for example? Is 172 the total number of reservoirs in Northern Ireland?

Ms Clydesdale: That is the number of controlled reservoirs that are known to the Department. The 93 that belong to Northern Ireland Water are part of the drinking water process. The others, which are in private and not-for-profit ownership, have various uses. A lot of them are used for angling, recreation and that type of thing, and some are on private estates.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Fine. OK. You mentioned designations. Question 2 of the consultation refers to "high" and "medium". Are there high, medium and low designations or just high and medium?

Mr Robinson: There are high, medium and low designations. Reservoirs designated as high or medium are subject to more stringent regulations. David may wish to talk more about the designations.

Mr David Courtenay (Department for Infrastructure): Criteria for how the Department will designate, once a reservoir manager has registered a reservoir, are set out in the 2021 consultation documents. The four criteria looked at are human health, the environment, economic activity and cultural heritage. The designations are set by looking at how an uncontrolled release of water would impact on those criteria.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Does the Department, via an engineering team, for example, do the assessment of whether a reservoir should be designated high, medium or low?

Mr Courtenay: Yes, indeed. The Department has developed a suite of reservoir maps that it uses to determine how receptors in each of those four criteria that I mentioned are impacted on by the depth and velocity of the water.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is fine.

I will turn to how we got here. You mentioned that ownership transferred to DFI in 2021. This is the first time that I have come across that during my time on the Committee. What level of engagement has DFI had with the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA), for example, on the issue? Have you had any discussions with NIEA?

Ms Clydesdale: In respect of?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Reservoirs.

Ms Clydesdale: The legislation is about public safety and preventing an uncontrolled release of water. I do not think that NIEA was one of the respondents to our consultation.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I assume that quite a number of those reservoirs are used for fishing, for example. Angling clubs were mentioned. I assumed that NIEA might have had a view on that and the wider consequences of the legislation.

It will take me a second to walk you through my point. Let us say that the legislation comes through and a reservoir is assessed. I assume that the £10,000, if the grant happens, is to be used to look at the state of the reservoir and to meet, as you put it, "supervision and inspection costs". Essentially, that money is to pay engineers to go in and assess reservoirs. Am I correct so far?

Mr Robinson: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Engineers might assess a reservoir and say, "Oh, we are not really happy with that; it needs some fixing". My understanding, based on my limited knowledge, is that the fixing part can be quite expensive. The engineers might say, "That is going to cost £1 million. It will take a lot of work". I assume that some folks in the not-for-profit sector do not have £1 million in their bank account to fix a reservoir. Is that fair?

Ms Clydesdale: Possibly.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I assume so. What do they do? That is where I see the link with NIEA. Do those folk just say, "We do not have that money"? What happens to that reservoir if that occurs?

Mr Robinson: Many respondents used the consultation to comment on potential capital costs, but it is really a two-stage thing. A further consultation on potential grant support for the capital costs of addressing those matters in the interests of safety will be required once the inspections are complete. However, we are looking to get the inspections through and get a sense of the scale of any capital works that may or may not be needed before we look at a potential capital grant.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): So, essentially, the legislation enables some level of scrutiny of the reservoirs as they stand. They will be classified, the money will pay for the classification, and some sort of research will then look at the implications of those findings. Do you accept that that could possibly involve a significant capital outlay for some of those folk, if a reservoir were found to be a medium risk and to require some remedy?

Mr Robinson: That is possible. The grant will cover the inspection costs —.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes, but not the capital.

Mr Robinson: The grant that we are looking at today focuses on the inspection costs, yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine. Here is my thinking on the NIEA: the forward impact of the legislation might mean that somebody might just say, "We do not have that money, so we will just slowly drain the reservoir", meaning that lots of fish might die or that we lose the capacity of that reservoir when it comes to drinking water, should we ever need it. We may not need it; I do not know. Has there been any discussion with NIEA around the future implications of it all?

Ms Clydesdale: No, there has not. The legislation is entirely concerned with the safety and regulation of reservoirs. In the event that a reservoir manager decided to drain their reservoir, they would be subject to the existing standard environmental regulations. For example, if a reservoir were drained and it was considered that there had been a change of use, the reservoir manager would have to comply with all the relevant environmental legislation that that would incur.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK, I see what you are saying, Alison. I am talking about future implications. Although this is about safety, we might find that, at the next step, there are situations where an engineer's report flags risks and that, although those risks may be medium or low and cheap to remedy — maybe £100,000 — the organisation concerned, especially in the case of not-for-profit organisations, might simply say, "Well, what do we do? We don't have that kind of capital outlay". I was just flagging that.

David looks as though he is ready to say something.

Mr Courtenay: The legislation refers to "abandonment" and "discontinuance". Discontinuance means taking a reservoir to a point at which it cannot hold 10,000 cubic metres or more, and abandonment refers to when a reservoir cannot hold any water above natural ground level.

As part of the designation process, we engage with NIEA on looking at the environmental receptors. It is probably aware, through those discussions, of the potential around this.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is OK.

You reference the 'Managing Public Money Northern Ireland' document in your slides, and I note that it is referenced in the consultation. I dug up the document to look at what it says. This is a wider point and is not directed at you particularly. At paragraph 1.5.1, 'Managing Public Money Northern Ireland' states:

MPMNI is referenced in the consultation, and you mentioned it this morning. Although the figures for this are relatively low, given that you are talking about a grant scheme of £10,000 that might impact across — how many people can apply for it?

Mr Robinson: We are looking at 53 in our private and not-for-profit sectors.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): So, it could be £0·5 million?

Mr Robinson: Yes, potentially.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yeah, OK.

I read that and smiled. This Committee is considering at least two schemes. I will flag those to you. The A5 has so far cost £150 million, and nothing has happened with it. The York Street interchange has so far cost £24 million, and nothing has happened. Both schemes have dragged on for ever. Every penny counts — I get that — but, when departmental officials come to the Committee and refer to 'Managing Public Money NI' with regard to a scheme that will cost maybe £0·5 million, and yet 300 times that amount has been spent on a road in the west of the Province that has never been built, I despair. 'Managing Public Money' is important — it is crucial to Departments — but, when I read that, I simply shook my head. This is not a dig at you guys in particular — you are here to talk about the safety of reservoirs — it is a wider point about how we deliver major capital projects in Northern Ireland. While we talk about £0·5 million in relation to this scheme, £175 million of taxpayers' money has been spent in Northern Ireland across those other schemes, and it has had zero impact. That does my head in. You do not have to respond to that, as it is not your area, but I wanted to make that point.

Harry, you are next, and we will go from major capital projects back to reservoirs.

Mr Harvey: It is good to see you again. Alison, you said that some of the reservoir managers have taken action and some have not. What is the reason for some not taking action?

Mr Courtenay: There has been a lot of investigatory work since the 2016 audit. We simply do not have that information. It would have to be given to us voluntarily by the reservoir managers. That is the case: we just do not know why.

Mr Harvey: OK. There are 98 managers — is that right? — looking after the 172 reservoirs.

Ms Clydesdale: Yes.

Mr Harvey: They are looking after them all. OK. You are responsible for 93 of those reservoirs. Is that right?

Ms Clydesdale: Northern Ireland Water is responsible for them.

Mr Harvey: Percentage-wise, how many of those are in the danger zone?

Mr Courtenay: None of Northern Ireland Water's reservoirs is. It is managing its stock of reservoirs.

Mr Harvey: It is all OK?

Mr Courtenay: Yes.

Mr Harvey: Thank you very much.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): No other members have indicated, so, unfortunately, it is back to me for a couple more questions. I wanted to give everyone the space to ask some questions.

The eligibility approach and the assessment of financial need were referenced in the document. On the six-month snapshot of a bank account to see how a particular reservoir owner trades, if I can put it that way, how was the period of six months decided? Some of the feedback was that the six-month period was a wee bit — this was the word — "crude". What are your thoughts on that? How was that decided?

Mr Robinson: I think that that was a fair comment. That is an example of how the consultation has been useful. It has given us food for thought. We are examining a range of options for means testing. You are exactly right. Someone came back and explained that income can be "seasonal", depending on what sector you are in. It was good to tease that out in the consultation.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): How will that comment be addressed by the Department? There may be other things that the Department has learnt. Will there be further engagement or a change in how the policy is nuanced?

Mr Robinson: Do you mean further engagement with the respondents or the Committee?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): With the respondents, in the first instance.

Mr Robinson: As I say, we are still working through a range of options for how we may do means testing. We are taking into consideration the sectors that the respondents are in and are trying to make it as fair as possible.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is fine. That is everything that I have.

Mr Dunne: Thank you, folks, for your presentation. Is there any update on the engagement with managers of reservoirs that are in public ownership? I know that a small number of councils and so on are managers.

Ms Clydesdale: No. Northern Ireland Water and some of the councils did reply to the consultation.

Mr Dunne: "Did" or "did not"?

Ms Clydesdale: Did. We probably have a list of exactly which councils responded. They did not all respond. The Minister has decided that the grant will be available only to non-public-sector bodies, the reason being that public-sector bodies are already funded through the public sector, and funding them again would therefore be double funding, essentially.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that. Is there a reason for the low number of consultation responses? Why is it so low?

Mr Robinson: I am really not sure. Not only was it published on the website but we sent it out to a load of targeted consultees who have an interest in the management and running of reservoirs. Yes, it is fair to say that 16 is quite low.

Mr Dunne: When you and others from the sector briefed us, there was quite considerable interest in this important issue, so it is alarming to see how few responded to the consultation. Some concerns were expressed about the £10,000 figure. I appreciate that you are proposing that figure as a cap. Do you think that that is a realistic target? What sort of timeline is in place for private owners? I know that it obviously depends on the next steps, but there is no guarantee of getting £10,000 at this stage, is there?

Ms Clydesdale: We will keep an eye on the market when it comes to the prices, but the grant application cannot be made until reservoir managers have registered and their reservoir has been designated. It is at that point that, if they are deemed to be a high- or medium-consequence reservoir, they will be able to apply for a grant. From the point of the legislation's coming into force, it could be anywhere in the realms of 12 months to 18 months. It will depend on how long people take to register.

David, is there anything that you want to add?

Mr Courtenay: No, I agree.

Mr Robinson: I will answer the first part of your question, which was about landing on the figure of £10,000. We liaised locally with Northern Ireland Water, which, as David said, uses engineers to keep reservoirs up to date, and the Environment Agency in GB. As Alison said, we always keep an eye on the market values. Obviously, things always tend to go north, so we will keep an eye on that.

Mr Dunne: Thanks, folks.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): A reservoir in my constituency is used by an angling club. Do you have a list of the councils that responded to the consultation?

Ms Clydesdale: We do.

Mr Robinson: Are we, under the protocol, allowed to say which ones responded? I am not sure.

Ms Clydesdale: I think that we are allowed to say under the —.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I allow you to say, Ryan. Do not worry.

Mr Robinson: OK. Belfast City Council —

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Yes. I know that one. Keep going.

Mr Robinson: — and Newry, Mourne and Down District Council. That is it.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. That is a short list. That is fine.

Nobody else has indicated. I thank you for your time. Obviously, the Committee will have a look at the issue. It has been a long-running saga, but we really appreciate your coming in and answering questions. Thanks very much, guys.