Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I welcome Sian Kerr, the Department's director of transport planning and policy; James Redmond, head of the transport planning and modelling unit; and Lindsey Zecevic, a senior transport planner.

Are members content that the session be recorded by Hansard?

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): You are welcome to make an opening statement, Sian, after which you can expect questions from members.

Ms Sian Kerr (Department for Infrastructure): Good afternoon, Chair and members, and thank you for the opportunity to brief the Committee on the engagement report arising from the consultation on the draft transport strategy. I am joined by James and Lindsey today. Members will have received a copy of the engagement report. With your agreement, Chair, I will provide some brief background in order to set the context for the report and its findings.

The Department's last overarching transport strategy was published in 2002 and is now considerably outdated. Since then, the Department's policy position in a number of areas has been updated through various strategies and policy documents. That has led to the spread of key messages across various publications, making it challenging for our stakeholders to access and understand our overarching ambitions for a sustainable transport network that supports healthier, better-connected communities. Additionally, the transport sector and wider society have undergone significant changes over that time, reinforcing the need for a new, clear and integrated transport strategy.

In June last year, Minister Kimmins launched the draft transport strategy, and, following that, we sought feedback from a wide range of stakeholders. That included public online consultation on Citizen Space, which was supported by targeted engagement sessions with the key stakeholders, and we shared a series of videos across social media platforms to help us to reach a broader and more diverse audience. Our face-to-face engagement included meetings with a wide range of organisations, such as the Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee (IMTAC), the Consumer Council, the Rural Community Network (RCN) and Queen's University. We also carried out cross-border engagement, including with representatives from the National Transport Authority (NTA). In addition, over 150 stakeholders were contacted directly by email to ensure that they were aware of and able to contribute to the consultation, and that activity was complemented by ongoing engagement carried out across the responsible policy teams, including those responsible for areas such as community transport.

Taken together, that represented a coordinated, cross-departmental approach, ensuring that stakeholder insights were embedded throughout the development of the draft strategy. Overall, the feedback was positive. There was strong and consistent support for the strategy's vision and four strategic priorities. Respondents welcomed the level of ambition, particularly the focus on creating a transport system that is more sustainable, inclusive and better connected. Importantly, participants were broadly supportive of the overall direction of travel. While there were suggestions for improvement, they focused on strengthening the strategy rather than changing its fundamental approach. That has provided a strong and robust evidence base for further refining the strategy.

I will let James come in at this point.

Mr James Redmond (Department for Infrastructure): Thank you, Sian. Thank you, Chair and Committee.

The public consultation ran from 23 June to 30 September 2025. The engagement report was published on 20 May 2026 and has been shared with the Committee. Key themes that emerged from the engagement included the importance of inclusivity, affordability, accessibility and connectivity in the transport system. There was a clear emphasis on rural considerations, with some perception of the strategy being overly urban-focused. Respondents also highlighted issues with deliverability and long-term investment, as well as the need for a greater focus on education and behavioural change. The feedback further emphasised the importance of integrating transport planning with land-use planning, alongside the strong climate considerations. There was also a consistent emphasis on accessibility, affordability and the inclusion of stakeholders, which highlighted the need to embed those principles from the outset. The feedback further underlined the importance of regional balance, cross-departmental collaboration, robust data and monitoring frameworks and ensuring a just transition to decarbonisation.

Taken together, the engagement provides a strong and coherent evidence base that demonstrates clear support for the strategy while identifying practical areas in which its delivery and impact can be strengthened.

In response to the consultation, the Department is strengthening a number of areas to improve the clarity, inclusivity and effectiveness of the strategy, including making it more people-centred through its commitment to deliver the transport personas to better reflect the needs and behaviours of users. We are also reflecting on how we can better recognise the challenges faced by those living in rural areas. Alongside that, we are enhancing the emphasis on evidence-based decision-making, thereby strengthening the links between our strategic priorities, proposed interventions and how outcomes will be monitored over time. We are also giving further consideration to the strong link between health outcomes and more sustainable travel choices, such as walking, wheeling and cycling. Our consideration has included engagement with academic partners to inform that work.

I hope that that gives you a helpful overview of the findings, and we are happy to take questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Thank you very much, folks, for that summary.

Sian, you mentioned the Rural Community Network. Does that incorporate the Community Transport Association (CTA)? Is CTA part of RCN?

Ms Kerr: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. Fine.

Ms Kerr: On behalf of our colleagues who look after community transport, it is important to say that there has been that engagement as well.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK. I was just wondering about the RCN acronym.

You got positive responses to the general themes across the four strategic priorities. Is there tension in the Department between delivering a more connected and comprehensive network and, for example, supporting green growth? You are trying to connect people, particularly in rural communities, and you have cross-cutting themes around climate change, climate action and so forth. Is there a tension between those in the Department?

Ms Kerr: Traditionally, we probably tried to deal with those things separately. One of the benefits of having a strategy is the opportunity to bring them together. Of course, all of them have the potential to work against each other. That is why we have tried to bring things together in a strategic, coherent approach. We have been at the Committee before to discuss, for example, the transport decarbonisation approach. The fact that there are different approaches to urban and rural areas is important. The transport strategy refers to everywhere being different. The things that we have to consider in each situation are different, but the strategy is a sort of North Star: it provides a strategic direction and details where we want to go so that there is consistency in the decision-making towards a common goal.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): You spoke about bringing together strategic themes, which, in the context of my question, is helpful. How do you bring together two things that are not necessarily diametrically opposed but pull in different directions? I gave the example of climate change versus creating better access to the rural network by building more roads to move people around, perhaps. How do you reconcile those and bring them together? Is it the Department's view that you bring those together?

Ms Kerr: We need to think more specifically about the outcomes in each of those situations. You mentioned community transport: that may have more of a role in some areas than in others. In the cities, for example, we might see a focus on patronage and public transport, whereas, in more rural areas, you might see a coverage approach rather than a patronage approach. You might then see the links with community transport. Importantly, this is the engagement report, so we need to take account of those comments to inform the final strategy. Hopefully, where we have seen genuine concerns about needing to say more, we will take account of those in the final strategy.

Mr Redmond: The point of the strategy is to bring forward the vision of the direction of travel in which the Department wants to go. It is not just one thing; it is a sustainable, inclusive, effective, safe and resilient transport system. Underpinning that is the data evidence. We are bringing forward proposals, interventions and policies that are underpinned by a strong evidence base so that we can really understand and be transparent about what we are trying to do: for example, saving lives on the roads. We also have to be aware of climate considerations, not only what that intervention looks and feels like but the need to be transparent about that. Maybe when we at least have the evidence and data to do that, we can look at alternatives to how things could be offset, compared with or balanced against.

Mr Stewart: Folks, thanks so much for coming along. It is great to see you again. It is a really good report. Hats off to you for that and for your briefing. There have been over 300 responses so far, which is encouraging, and there is between 70% and 80% agreement across those. There appears to be some constructive feedback. How will you start to process that, try to take the positives from it and construct a final strategy using that information? Talk me through the next steps in the process and how it will look.

Ms Kerr: We have already started that work. The key point was to understand the responses. We have already been working with the various teams across the Department and with our colleagues and stakeholders on how we can further improve the strategy to take account of some of the issues.

James may wish to come in on that, but the work is ongoing.

The interesting thing has been the feedback — the level of engagement from individuals. That has been helpful. We also saw that in the responses to the eastern transport plan (ETP) 2035. It is great to see such personal engagement from the public.

One challenge is the cross-cutting nature of the strategy in the Department. There has been a lot of internal engagement on how to bring all those things together. We hope to have the final strategy in the coming months. As you can imagine, a lot of work is ongoing.

Mr Redmond: The point of the strategy is to recognise that we have a vision and a direction of travel. However, we will hold our hands up and say that some of our current policies do not allow us to travel in that direction. The policy hooks in the strategy provide signposts to the things that we need to do. For instance, there is an understanding that we need to consider equity and regional fairness when designing and developing policy that takes cognisance of the demographic, the regional perception of how people travel and the difficulties and dependencies that they may have.

One area that we had to look at was developing our own Northern Ireland transport personas. The Committee may be aware that the UK uses transport personas that break the population into segments that reflect the different demographics, the age profile and dependency on cars comparatively across the region. By doing that and understanding those personas, we can look through the lens of different people. That is important work, the need for which was highlighted by the consultation process showing that the strategy was very urban-focused rather than rural-focused. We took that away and are trying to understand how we can better reflect it in our policy development.

We had a good basis on which to strengthen the final transport strategy when we went out to consultation. We identified areas that we needed to strengthen, and those will be part of the development process by which we will shine a light on those and bring them through in the final transport strategy.

Ms Kerr: It is worth saying that it is a year since we were up here talking about this subject, which seems incredible. A lot has moved on in the Department during that time, such as the work on road safety and transport decarbonisation. Things have happened over the year that have naturally addressed some of the concerns, and those will be reflected in the updated strategy.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Stewart): How do you see the strategy integrating with the strategies that are already in place? We got active travel not as a strategy but as a statutory obligation. How does the transport strategy integrate with that? The Chair asked about community transport: it does a fantastic job and is willing and waiting to do so much more, with support. How integral do you see that being to delivery, especially in rural areas and, for example, for elderly people?

Ms Kerr: We would like to think that all those things are included already. A minute ago, I spoke about the road safety strategy. We talk about the importance of having a safe network. The strategy references the work that is ongoing through the road safety strategy. Rather than duplicate or replace existing strategies, the transport strategy points to the work that is ongoing, such as the community transport review and the road safety strategy. I think of it as being like the picture on a jigsaw box, and we are trying to bring together all the bits of the jigsaw that we already have, work out where the missing pieces are and speak to those. That is what we are trying to do through the strategy.

Mr Stewart: One thing that I hear about as a local representative — you previously identified it in the strategy — is difficulty accessing healthcare, particularly for elderly people. That is one aspect of interdepartmental cooperation. We could also look at the tourism offering, education or whatever else. That is critical. The Department for Infrastructure has a massive role and will take the lead on this, but interaction with other Departments or aspects of Departments is key to delivery and to ensuring that this functions correctly.

Ms Kerr: It absolutely is. The tourism stuff is referenced in the strategy. I sit on the tourism partnership board, which is led by DFE. We work closely with colleagues in DFE who are looking after the aviation strategy. We do a lot of that cross-departmental work anyway. We are working with all Departments on climate matters. Hopefully, the strategy speaks of those things. There is a lot of cross-cutting engagement going on about linking in with existing work in Departments.

Mr Stewart: Are you happy with that? I do not want you to throw anyone under the bus. [Laughter.]

Are you happy that everyone is playing an active role across Departments, given how critical that departmental overlap is?

Ms Kerr: Absolutely. As I said in my opening remarks, we have not had a transport strategy for so long. It is particularly difficult to be all things to all people, especially with the Budget situation. Having an overarching transport strategy that sets what we want to do is widely welcomed in the Department. It is seen as critical, necessary work. Even having the ability to inform decisions that are required will be really useful. It has been a missing piece for so long in that strategic context.

Mr Stewart: Again, I commend you. It is a really good piece of work, and I look forward to seeing it progressing. I hope that we will see you back here soon.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Before I bring Stephen in, I want to pick up on the issue of Translink, which John touched on. We had Translink in last week, and you are probably aware that it is a little short of money. I raised with Translink the possibility of a little bit of thinking outside the box when it comes to some of its routes and how it tries to adapt, given the budgetary situation. I raised with Translink the possibility of some joint working with CTA on community transport across Northern Ireland and whether it could fill in gaps for Translink. Is that the sort of conversation that you are having or have had with CTA?

We still await the report on the review of community transport in Northern Ireland, which, I think, finished a while ago, in April. According to the most recent correspondence, it will, perhaps, be September before that report is released to the Committee. I do not know whether it is your area, Sian, but you are the director of transport planning, so you might know a bit about this. When should we expect the report on the review of community transport? Have there been discussions not only in relation to this consultation but on whether there is a wider role for CTA in filling gaps in routes that are otherwise expensive for Translink to run?

Ms Kerr: My understanding is that the report is due in September, but that is not my direct area of work.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine.

Ms Kerr: I probably saw it in the same correspondence that went to you. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): Possibly.

Ms Kerr: On the wider thinking, it is important to say that this is just an engagement report on the transport strategy; the overall strategy has not been finalised yet. I listened to the Translink session last week. That is where the likes of the transport plans will be helpful. Where do we see public transport delivering the biggest bang for its buck, for example, in Belfast city centre, which will be the first phase of the ETP?

We never have the funding that we would like. However, when we look at the spending power that we have, it is important to have a strategic direction for that so that we are all pulling in the same direction. That is where the importance of the transport strategy will lie.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): OK, that is fine.

Mr Dunne: Thank you, folks, for coming in again. It is good to see strong engagement from the public: getting 300 responses is more than other consultations by the Department that we have looked at recently, so that is good to see.

The Chair mentioned Translink, and I want to touch on that. Translink made some alarming comments about potential service reductions and the service reviews that it may have to carry out. I am keen to hear your thoughts on that. I appreciate that we are at an early stage and that this is a long-term strategy, rather than dealing with operational issues. However, those feed into each other, particularly given the potential impact on services and the position that Translink has been left in because of action or inaction on the part of the Infrastructure Minister. What impact could that have on prioritising active travel and so on?

Ms Kerr: The strategy speaks strongly about the role of public transport and the role that Translink plays.

I have spoken previously about where the transport plans come into play at a spatial level, highlighting things such as quality mass movement corridors, where we want to see a certain level of public transport provision. That speaks to the slightly longer term. Last week, Chris spoke about the short term and said that he had some flexibility in what he can look at. I do not want to get drawn, nor could I be drawn, on Translink's operational decisions now, but the role of public transport is critical to the strategy. We also want to look at how we make public transport as attractive as possible to encourage more people to take it. That will inevitably have an impact on the money going to Translink. That is all that I can really say at the minute; sorry.

Mr Dunne: The themes that came through on public transport were inclusivity, affordability, accessibility and connectivity. Those four areas may be hampered significantly if changes are afoot, as Translink mentioned last week.

Ms Kerr: The important thing is that the Department does not have a budget. It is a difficult situation for us all. Chris spoke about the options that are available to him at Translink. All that I can say from a strategy point of view is that this is the strategic document showing where we would like to go. Obviously, all decisions on the transport strategy in the future will relate to the Department's budget position and the decisions that are required to be taken once we get an allocation.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that.

I will move on to active travel. One of the frustrations that I see daily is to do with footpaths. I was contacted yesterday and today about it. We are encouraging active travel and walking, but we have seen a significant issue in recent days and weeks with, for example, totally overgrown hedges blocking the paths. I got a picture yesterday of a young mother pushing a pram on a dangerous section of a busy road. It is about getting a balance between maintaining our current footpaths, roads and pedestrian areas and looking, rightly, at the longer term and at strategic new active travel routes. I am keen to know whether you feel that the balance needs to be improved. We have to maintain what we have to a safe standard, but road safety and pedestrian safety are often compromised by the Department for Infrastructure. The Department has recently done a lot of good work around road safety messaging, but the balance is not right in its approach.

Ms Kerr: The need for a safe network is upfront in and an ambition of the strategy. The Minister is aware of the importance of accessible footways. For example, you will be aware of the work that she has done on legislating to introduce a ban on pavement parking in certain areas to deal with that. We will always be in the situation where there is not enough money to do all the things that we would like. Decisions need to be taken, and there is daily prioritisation in how we look after the road network. I do not know about individual cases.

Mr Dunne: I appreciate that — I am not asking you about the specifics — but colleagues have mentioned active travel and, for example, cycle lanes going to nowhere in parts of Northern Ireland. It is important that connectivity remains central.

Ms Kerr: James may want to come in, but the role of active travel is clearly highlighted in the strategy. You will be aware of the Department's commitments on it. All the time, I see the work that is being done on that, including the work to bring forward the active travel delivery plan, and the lessons that we have learnt as a roads authority about how to do that at scale. If the active travel team has not been before the Committee recently, I am sure that it will be up soon to talk about the work that it is taking forward.

Mr Dunne: There are issues around how the required 10% of the transport budget can be used for active travel, but, in my eyes, it should very much be used to keep existing footpaths and other areas open and safe.

Ms Kerr: When we talk about active travel, the instinct is to think about cycling, but it is important to remember that walking and pavements are a critical bit of it. The team is very aware of that.

James, do you want to come in on anything?

Mr Redmond: Historically, we have had a road maintenance strategy, but, with regard to the 10% for active travel that you mentioned, the active travel delivery plan has shone a light on the need to maintain assets such as the pavements and the cycle infrastructure. The latest maintenance strategy has also shone a light on the need to ensure that effective width is realised across our footpaths and cycleways.

Historically, we could have been accused of not having a focus on maintaining the pavements as well as we could have done, but that is part of the wider maintenance strategy that the Department wants to introduce to ensure the movement and accessibility piece.

Mr Dunne: Good; hopefully so. Obviously, this section is completed. My final question is: what happens next?

Ms Kerr: Work is ongoing, as I said. It is already informing the final draft. We are taking cognisance of the findings and working with colleagues on updating some of the sections that do not fall into my direct remit. It will have to be finalised and made accessible, and the Minister will have a role in clearing it. We are still very much aiming for the summer. The likes of the eastern transport plan will soon be published, so the timing of them together will need some thought.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you, panel, for coming in today. One of the key themes that I noticed in the document was behavioural change. Is there a plan to work with behavioural science experts to take that forward? In all my time in elected politics, nudging people a certain way has been a really important component. Is there a plan to work with behavioural experts?

Ms Kerr: We are already working. There are a few ways to look at it. You could see the like of the vehicle emissions trading scheme as influencing behaviours through legislation and working with manufacturers. In some ways, that is through the advertising that we see on TV around buying electric vehicles. That is one element of behavioural change. We are also working with colleagues in DAERA on how we can use behavioural change in relation to climate. At the minute, we are particularly interested in engaging one of the universities to look at how we might use behavioural insights to help impact some of our work areas. For example, I look after parking enforcement. Could we do more on how we engage with people who get tickets, for example, to better explain, in the really small print that goes on their windscreen, what a ticket is for? There are other ways that we could use it. It is fair to say that we are engaged, and we see more opportunity for how we can do that, and that is before we talk about how it could be used to encourage people to use public transport, for example. It is very much an opportunity.

Mr McReynolds: The first time that I heard about nudge theory was from Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful. Shout-out to Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful. Could local councils play a part in that?

Ms Kerr: Absolutely. We are working closely with the councils on various aspects of the Department's transport portfolio and in relation to climate work. There is so much potential. In many cases, it is about how we market our things and explain why we are doing some of the things that we are doing so that it is clearer. It is also about looking at how we can make some of our strategies easier to read and understand. There is a huge spectrum with regard to where it can come in and where we can use it, but it is something that we see great benefit in. It can be combined with the work that James talked about earlier regarding personas, really understanding what is important to different people. How we sell what we are doing, and how we encourage them, will be different for different people. It is about trying to understand that everybody is different and that different things will resonate differently with different people, and how we use that.

Mr McReynolds: Stephen made a point about Translink. Obviously, it is having to explore concessionary fares due to the funding shortfalls. One of them relates to young people and the discounts that they get, which hopefully encourage them to use public transport into the future, as you acknowledged when answering Stephen. Will this strategy try to guide ministerial direction and decisions when it comes to funding? Will the Minister be guided by the strategy in some way? How will it fit in?

Ms Kerr: It is about trying to set the whole of the transport work at a higher level and how the different parts interlink. The Minister has made clear the importance of having attractive public transport, but, as always, as I pointed out earlier, we always have to take decisions relative to the available budget. We have a huge water portfolio and a huge transport portfolio, and tough decisions need to be made. Again, it is important to say that this is just the engagement report. This is highlighting the things that people feel we could go further on or explain better, and new thinking about the personas. I like to think that setting out a strategic direction sets out more clearly how everything interacts, as the Chair spoke about earlier. Then, rather than treating things in isolation, there are consequences, and if you do something in one place, it might impact on another. This brings it all together so that it can be seen in one coherent way.

Mr McReynolds: Lastly, where does the report go from here? You mentioned the previous report. I think that that was in 2002. Do you think that was successful in meeting its aims? What is your reflection on that?

Ms Kerr: It was published in 2002 and went on until 2012. Therefore, in effect, we have not had a transport strategy since 2012. Even in the likes of business cases, we can see that having a strategic transport strategy to inform why we are taking decisions is critical and helps to set out why we are looking at different decisions. I do not know why we did not have one, but I can see that there are many benefits to even having the draft strategy in place. I like to think that, given the level of buy-in from the Department, this will bring us up to 2035. At that stage, hopefully, everybody will be well aware of the importance of a new strategy. I hope that that answers the question.

Mr Redmond: It is also important to understand where this sits in the hierarchy of documents. Essentially, you will have the Programme for Government (PFG) and the regional development strategy, which takes us to 2035. We had a transport strategy that took us to 2012, and we had a suite of transport plans that took us to 2015. We have been operating in a vacuum in the transport world, where everybody wants to do things, but this new transport strategy and the new suite of transport plans that have been developed talk to each other, so there is a golden thread where everything crosses. That should help with the delivery of this because, in relation to talks from the PFG to the regional development strategy, there is the planning spatial strategy and the transport strategy, which is a sister document of the regional development strategy. Then you have the spatial plans, which show you what everything looks like on the ground and how we will connect all that up. Hopefully, that will feed out to the delivery element of that in relation to how it helps with the business cases because you have that strategic context and understanding of why you want to do certain things.

They are two critical documents — well, more than two. You have the transport strategy and the transport plans, which are a suite of eight. Those are critical pieces of documentation to give us an overall direction and an understanding of why we are doing what we are doing and what it looks like on the ground. Therefore, it will help to give that direction, understanding and buy-in from the Department. The common thread through the whole strategy is that we cannot deliver it on our own, so we have the councils, the arm's-length bodies (ALBs) and local stakeholders. They will have a clear understanding and vision of what we are working towards.

Mr McReynolds: I suppose the strategies are like the guiding hand for the Department. When you need to make key decisions, you are able to point to them and say, "This is why we are doing X".

Ms Kerr: Everything else that happens in transport within the Department should easily be able to dock into the strategy, and it should be clear what it is helping to achieve in respect of the objectives of the strategy.

Mr McReynolds: Thank you. That is very helpful.

Mr McMurray: A lot of issues have been touched on. One of the strategic priorities was safe and healthy transport. There was a reference to lower road speeds. In semi-rural areas, if you go into any village or town, one of the main concerns is the speed of traffic coming into the town, but it is nigh on impossible to get anything done about it, in many regards. I appreciate the nudge theory, but there are all sorts of ways in which physical structures could be integrated into side roads and B roads coming into towns and villages. There are the classic speed bumps, but people do not want to go near them. Everyone here who lives in a rural constituency knows that in the towns and villages that is the number-one ask, amongst other things, if you knock on the doors. Is there an opinion on that? I know that the Minister is thinking about bringing in 20 mph zones, which is to be welcomed. Again, it is about speed limits, speed and practicalities, rather than nudge theories.

Ms Kerr: As I said, the road safety aspects of the strategy are implemented through the road safety strategy. The current consultation on speed limits is looking at speed limits on various different types of roads. Individual measures will be looked at by local road section offices to see where things can be improved, but, as always, that is specific to areas and is dependent on money and priorities.

Mr McMurray: On active travel and enforcement, only this weekend, with the better weather, we got pictures of cars parked on active travel ways. Obviously, there is a PSNI responsibility there, but what enforcement powers does the Department have to help with that? I am from South Down. It is not a city issue; it is all across the board.

Ms Kerr: The Department has only specific powers in parking enforcement that have been decriminalised. Blocking roads is the responsibility of the police. We have enforcement powers where there are double yellow lines, clearways or cars in bus lanes. We have traffic attendants out enforcing all the time, but obviously we cannot be everywhere. We are a very responsive service. Hopefully, all of you are aware that you can simply email the parking team and, where it has the resources to do so, it will look at specific areas. There are particular challenges in particular areas when the weather is warm. We work with partners to pre-empt some issues where there are events and things like that.

Mr McMurray: In the particular area that I am referring to, there is a weekly event, which causes a spill out.

Ms Kerr: If you want to email me about the specifics, I can talk to the parking enforcement team.

Mr McMurray: That would be good. I will take you up on that.

I am another person to mention the Translink issue. When Translink representatives were here last week, they referenced increasing passenger numbers but decreasing returns. It is only fair that I put pretty much the same question to you as I put to Translink last week. You have increasing numbers but decreasing returns, and obviously you want to see increasing numbers and increasing returns, which could help to expand the service. Conversely, the point that it made to us was that its real resource budget has gone from 50% to 45%. How does that tie in with the strategy of making the service more accessible? As has been touched on, the rural routes will be hit first, as those are the low-hanging fruit. I am from a rural constituency. Getting from one side of South Down to the other, maybe to get to hospital, is a three-hour camel trek. What is the Department's opinion on that?

Ms Kerr: As I said, our view will be set out in the transport plans, where public transport plays a critical role. I do not know enough about the specifics of the budget to comment on the current situation, but the role that Translink plays, and the role of public transport more widely, is very clear in the strategy. We have been very clear that Translink cannot be all things to all people. We need to work with it on where in the transport plans we see that it can do the most to contribute to the Department's objectives. That will come out through the transport plans. Every area is different.

Mr Harvey: Would you say that the strategy is more urban-focused?

Ms Kerr: We certainly did not intend for that to be the case, but we have had feedback saying that we can do more to bring out the rural factor, so we are looking at that. It is certainly not the intention.

Mr Redmond: I would like to say that it was more people-focused. The focus of this, historically, where we have come from, is in relation to focusing on how we move the car and our goods vehicles. What we have tried to do — you will see that coming through in the transport plans as well — is that, in relation to whether you are urban in relation to Belfast, Enniskillen or Omagh, there are things that we can do, and we want to bring forward that new way of introducing policy and designing.

From the consultation responses, we recognise that people have said that some things that appear in the photographs in the strategy itself are very urbanised, so it is more of a messaging. We have taken that away and tried to bring out the rural themes. One of the personas is going to be one of the ways that we can do that, but also in relation to recognising that active travel is not only for an urban area: it can also be for the wider rural area in terms of greenways and things like that. There are things that we probably have to strengthen, and we have acknowledged that and want to put that forward in the final strategy.

Mr Harvey: Regarding monitoring and accountability, what key performance indicators will be used to track progress, and how often will those be published?

Ms Kerr: That will be in the final strategy. We are giving some consideration to that in terms of how we do it proportionately, rather than just creating another layer of bureaucracy that needs to be updated. It has to be meaningful. It has to make sure that it interacts with all the other strategies that we have talked about. As a Department as a whole, what is our dashboard? What are our indicators? Through the likes of the climate work, we are working with DAERA on that. It is really important, not only for accountability purposes, but so that we know how well we are doing. We have genuinely tried to be open and transparent on where we can do better in the draft, and we have learned from the engagement. Bear in mind that a lot of this stuff is being implemented through daughter strategies, and they have their own indicators. We do not want to just replicate stuff for no reason. We need to think about how we make it useful and proportionate.

Mr McHugh: Fáilte romhaibh uilig.

Thank you for your statement too. Staying on the theme of addressing the needs of the rural communities and so on, the comments that you made about the strategy — opportunities to deliver by —. Sorry. Just one wee second. I was looking at the wrong line there. Yes. I am thinking of the private operators in the rural communities and so on. To what extent can they be utilised, and how should they be encouraged?

Ms Kerr: In the strategy, we talk about the fact that we need an integrated transport system in which all of those organisations can play a role. Certainly, the likes of community transport, but even the likes of our taxis. It is a transport system, and the system needs to work for the people whom it is meant to serve. We see all of those players playing a role in the strategy. We are keen to look at how we do that and how we use this evidence and reinforce elements of the final strategy. Hopefully, we can lay out more on that in the strategy.

Mr McHugh: An issue came up last week again when we met with Translink and so on, particularly when one talks about fares. The comment that I made at the time too was that, in rural communities, fares, at the end of the day, engage a reaction. How elastic are fares? In the rural community where I live, I often hear comments that people find that public transport is too expensive. How does that fit in with the whole strategy as regards making sure that they have that provision for people in rural areas?

Ms Kerr: The Minister has made it clear that transport must be kept affordable. We know from our evidence that fares are an issue, but the reliability and the frequency of the service are other key components that people believe to be very important. Again, it involves a combination of all those factors and finding a balance.

Mr McHugh: Enforcement has hit the headlines today when it comes to parking in disabled bays, which is something I have often come across in relation to my office and constituents raising issues. How will the strategy ensure that the public become more aware of their responsibility towards people who are disabled and can be deprived of full participation because of the general public’s inconsiderate approach? Quite a lot of people are getting fines for that at the minute, but maybe the fines are not enough.

Ms Kerr: The behavioural change piece is an interesting point. The public need to think about the implications for other groups of what they are doing. The Minister has made it clear that people should think before they park. It is the same issue for people parking in disabled bays, parking that blocks the pavement and parking in bus lanes. All of these things follow the same general ethos: people need to think about why the restrictions are in place in the first place. Generally speaking, it is to protect groups of people or keep the traffic flowing. We do enforce the fines for parking in disabled bays, but we cannot be everywhere all of the time. There has to be a twin approach of enforcement and wider messaging about people thinking before they park and the implications of their behaviour.

Mr McHugh: There should be a "Think before you park" campaign to raise awareness among the general public.

Ms Kerr: Some of the councils, such as Belfast and Ards and North Down, have campaigns in their areas to encourage people to think before they park. The Department can support that, and it also has the enforcement function. Ideally, people should think before they park. Then, we will not need to use enforcement.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): You have climate considerations as a key theme. Question 6 of the consultation was:

You may be aware that, at the weekend, the First Minister said that she was willing to amend climate change targets in order to facilitate the A5 project. If I was being a little bit kind, I might call that a policy shift. Will her comments he helpful to the Department in taking forward its strategy to 2035, or unhelpful?

Ms Kerr: That was the headline, but the wider discussion was that the Department is focused on the A5 appeal. The Minister has made it clear that she is happy to look at all the options to get the road built, but our focus is very much on the appeal.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): I will give it to you verbatim:

So she is open to whatever. Does the Minister agree with that?

Ms Kerr: The Minister spoke on 'Sunday Politics', and you can see the transcript of that. I do not want to comment on what the Minister thinks. As officials we are focused on the appeal.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): That is fine. Thank you, Sian, James and Lindsay. Oh my goodness, Justin — sorry, you nearly got away there.

Ms Kerr: He has been waiting patiently.

The Chairperson (Mr Martin): He has been waiting very patiently. Thank you. I have to go, and I will hand over to John Stewart. Justin, the floor is yours.

Mr McNulty: Thanks, folk. I appreciate your evidence and your time. You spoke of your concern about the Department not having a budget. Of course, no Department has a budget, because the Executive have not agreed a Budget yet. Forgive the pun, but to what extent is not having a budget derailing your plans for an ambitious transport strategy?

Ms Kerr: It is not having a material impact right now, because this is the engagement report and the strategy has not been finalised yet. Right now, the two are not connected. The Minister has plans in place, and priorities and a business plan in the Department, and we are focused on taking that forward. We make it clear that, in the longer term, once the strategy is published, it is both actionable and adaptable to whatever situation we find ourselves in, and that includes issues around budget. Having a strategic document will help inform decision-making and make sure that, where there are decisions in different areas of the transport network, we see how they link together and how they are taken to achieve the wider priorities.

Mr McNulty: I see on page 16 of the draft strategy a great picture of Carlingford lough, not far from my home. It is a

view, but as we speak, and at the height of the tourist season, the Carlingford lough ferry has been stopped, so it is not very resilient or sustainable. That is just an observation, so you do not necessarily have to comment on that.

Three per cent of people are "other" in terms of the use of transport networks. What is "other"?

Ms Kerr: Sorry, whereabouts is it?

Mr McNulty: Page 10.

Ms Kerr: In the engagement report?

Mr McNulty: Twenty-four per cent walk, 1% cycle, 70% use a car and 2% use public transport. Is the 3% "other" community transport?

Mr Redmond: That 3% "other" is motorcycle. Depending on how the data is gathered, some people who have scooters will be included. A wide range of things is captured in "other". We have just summarised "other" along with the four main themes.

Mr McNulty: I was just curious. It is disturbing that the 3% "other" is greater than public transport. That is not a very high bar as things stand, with 71%-plus of emissions coming from cars, so there is a need for change. How does community transport link into that, if at all? Is there an element of this that would be demand-responsive transport whereby there is agility and adaptability, as you mentioned, in the system so that it is not necessarily structured and set to deliver services that do not deliver, essentially, because there is nobody on them? Is agility built into your strategy?

Ms Kerr: The strategy talks about the potential need to look at demand-responsive services in some areas.

Mr Redmond: At this time, we do not want to commit to that, because we are still in the policy development space in some of those areas. Demand responsiveness is certainly one area that we want to look at, but is it the right fit across the region or specific to certain areas? There is a bit of development reviewing what others across the water and down South are doing to address that, taking the learnings from that and, hopefully, being able to bring that forward.

Mr McNulty: In the age of AI, surely there have to be huge possibilities there for transport.

Mr Redmond: Yes, certainly. Technology as well.

Mr McNulty: You said that the Minister desires to keep public transport affordable. How does that stack up with the reality that it is more expensive to get a train from Newry to Belfast than it is to get a train from Dundalk to Belfast?

I agree with the ethos change — the nudge thing. We need a cultural shift, essentially.

Ms Kerr: We are talking about behavioural change as well, understanding why in some areas, especially in urban areas, in terms of road space usage, many more people can be transported on a bus in and out of town rather than if everybody tries to go by car. It is explaining that to people. We cannot support the growth aspirations of Belfast, in this case, if everybody insists on travelling into the city by car. However, we can provide alternatives that make it easier for more people to get in and out of our cities. The solution for Belfast city centre might be very different from that of a rural area or even some of our smaller cities. As James mentioned, it is important that we have a data-driven view of what is required and what is actually happening in those areas, rather than what we think might be good. That is where the transport plans will come in very useful. In our experience, once we get the data, the situation is not what we initially thought it was. It is really important that we use the data and the evidence in order to inform sensible decision-making on the specifics of actual places.

Mr McNulty: It is a really interesting consultation document, and it is interesting work.

Ms Kerr: Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Stewart): No other members have indicated that they wish to speak. Thank you, again, Sian, Lindsey and James, for coming along today. We really appreciate your update and the work that you are doing. The Committee looks forward to hearing from you again soon.