Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I welcome to the Committee our two witnesses, Mícheál Mac Giolla Ghunna, the principal of Coláiste Feirste, and Diarmaid Ua Bruadair, the principal of Gaelcholáiste Dhoire. Apologies if I pronounced anything incorrectly. We usually begin our evidence sessions by asking the witnesses to make a presentation. You have indicated that you will deliver your presentation in Irish. The live interpretation service is available for Committee members, should it be required. I ask that your initial presentation be up to 10 minutes in length, after which I will bring in members to ask questions.

Mr Mícheál Mac Giolla Ghunna (Coláiste Feirste): Go raibh maith agaibh as an chuireadh. Is mise Mícheál Mac Giolla Ghunna, príomhoide Choláiste Feirste. Is iar-bhunscoil lán-Ghaeilge é Coláiste Feirste atá suite in iarthar Bhéal Feirste. Tá 1,000 dalta againn. Tá thart ar 72 mhúinteoir againn agus b'fhéidir 50 cúntóir ranga. Cuirimid an curaclam ar fáil i nGaeilge, ó bhliain 8 go dtí bliain 14: ó thús an aistir iar-bhunscolaíochta go hArdleibhéal. Cuirimid printíseachtaí agus cúrsaí gairme ar fáil fosta.

Tá ag éirí go maith leis an scoil. Sin an fáth a bhfuil muid ag leanúint lenár gcuid oibre. Tá muid ag iarraidh pobal Gaeilge a chruthú, chomh maith leis na scileanna, eolas, cáilíochtaí agus dearcthaí atá de dhíth le pobal Gaeilge a chothú, agus le tacú leis an phobal sin a bheith ag fás.

Tá mo chomhghleacaí, Diarmaid Ua Bruadair, anseo. B'fhéidir gur mhaith le Diarmaid cúpla focal a rá faoi Ghaelcholáiste Dhoire.

Mr Diarmaid Ua Bruadair (Gaelcholáiste Dhoire): Go raibh maith agat. Is mise Diarmaid Ua Bruadair, príomhoide Ghaelcholáiste Dhoire. Bhí cuid agaibh ar cuairt ag an scoil. Chonaic sibh an suíomh galánta ina bhfuil muid. Is dócha go bhfuil sé de phribhléid againn bheith lonnaithe i gCaisleán Dhún Geimhin.

Is muid an dara hiar-bhunscoil lán-Ghaeilge sna Sé Chontae. Tá 360 dalta againn. Tá muid ar an tsaol le 10 mbliana anuas agus cuirimid oideachas ar fáil ó bhliain 8 go dtí bliain 14. Is scoil uile-ábaltacht muid, scoil uile-chreidmheach muid agus is scoil muid a chuireann béim ar an bharr feabhais acadúil, chomh maith le cluichí Gaelacha agus cultúr tríd an cheol agus tríd an drámaíocht.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh as an éisteacht seo a thabhairt dúinn inniu. Leanfaidh Mícheál ar aghaidh leis an chur i láthair.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Tá muid iontach sásta go bhfuil daoine ag plé plean lucht saothair don Ghaelscolaíocht. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach. Tá neart dúshlán rómhainn mar gheall ar easpa plean lucht saothair agus ba mhaith linn cúpla focal a rá faoin fháth a bhfuil an plean chomh tábhachtach sin dúinn agus ansin faoi na dúshláin a dtiocfadh le plean mar sin tabhairt futhú.

I dtús báire, dar linne gur ceist chothromaíochta é seo. Ba chóir rochtain bheith ag daltaí Gaeloideachais ar shainmhúinteoirí ábhair, nó speisialtóirí, mar atá ag na daltaí i scoileanna Béarla. Ba chóir rochtain bheith acu ar an churaclam agus ar na cáilíochtaí céanna. Ba chóir an tacaíocht chéanna bheith acu ó chúntóirí ranga, ón Údarás Oideachais (ÚO) agus ó Chomhairle Curaclaim, Scrúdúcháin agus Measúnaithe (CCEA). Tá prionsabal sa chóras oideachais go dtugtar tacaíocht de réir riachtanais. Má bhíonn níos mó tacaíochta de dhíth ar dhalta áirithe, tugaimid an tacaíocht sin. Tá sin amhlaidh maidir le scoileanna. Má bhíonn tacaíocht ar leith nó plean ar leith de dhíth ar earnáil amháin, ba chóir sin bheith ann le gur féidir linn an chothrmoaíocht a bhaint amach do na daltaí ar fud an chórais oideachais.

Bhí neart cruinnithe againn le hoifigigh na Roinne le blianta fada anuas. Agus fuair muid éisteacht mhaith. Ach níor tharla rud ar bith. Ní dhearnadh difear i scoileanna dár ndaltaí óga mar nach raibh plean soiléir ann chun gníomh a dhéanamh maidir leis na moltaí a bhí muidne a chomhaontú leis an Roinn Oideachais.

Mar sin de, cad é an scéal faoi láthair maidir le plean lucht saothair? Is beag obair atá déanta chun anailís a dhéanamh ar na huimhreacha agus go háirithe ar na réimsí ábhair atá de dhíth chun freastal ar an éileamh atá ag méadú i rith an ama. Is beag pleanáil atá déanta le coláistí oiliúna tosaigh múinteoirí, Coláiste Naomh Muire agus an Sruthán Milis go háirithe. Níl ann ach cúrsa Gaeilge feabhsaithe, 15 lá breise, mar chuid bheag de chúrsa TICO trí mheán an Bhéarla nach bhfuil ach ocht n-áit ann. Níl aon phleanáil ann leis na háiteanna sin a nascadh le folúntais scoile réamh-mheasta nó le forbairt curaclaim. Níl aon phleanáil déanta leis na coláistí sin d'fhorbairt ghairmiúil leanúnach do mhúinteoirí neamhspeisialaithe chun a dtuiscint ar ábhar nó ar chur i bhfeidhm ábhair sa tseomra ranga a fhorbairt. Níl aon phleanáil ann do chúrsaí tiontaithe chun freastal ar an éileamh ar bhealach solúbtha: mar shampla, múinteoirí ardchumasacha le hábhair ghinearálta a thiontú ina speisialtóirí ábhair. Níl aon phleanáil le hinstitiúidí ardoideachais maidir le céimeanna sa Ghaeilge le hábhar eile, comhonóracha nó fo-ábhar, go háirithe i dtaca le hábhair ETIM de. Mar gheall ar an easpa pleanála táthar ag cur leis na dúshláin sheanbhunaithe roimh Ghaelscoileanna ag céim na hiar-bhunscolaíochta.

Ba mhaith liom roinnt de na dúshláin a lua libh, agus tá níos mó sonraí sa pháipéar a thug mé daoibh roimh an chruinniú seo. I dtaca le hearcaíocht agus coinneáil de, tá fás tagtha ar Choláiste Feirste ó 600 dalta in 2015-16 go 1,000 dalta in 2025-26. Ta fás suntasach tagtha ar Ghaelcholáiste Dhoire fosta. A Dhiarmaid, cá mhéad?

Mr Ua Bruadair: Bunaíodh Gaelcholáiste Dhoire in 2015 agus bhí 13 dhalta ann. Anois, 11 bhliain ina dhiadh, tá beagnach 400 dalta ar an scoil.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Maidir le ráta imeachta agus folúntais de bharr fhás líon na ndaltaí: i gColáiste Feirste anuraidh, bhí 14 fholúntas ann. I mbliana tá 11 fholúntas ann — sin sula ndéana muid trácht ar na folúntais mar gheall ar an fhás i líon na ndaltaí. Sin le fanacht mar atá muid. Tá sonraí sa pháipéar a thug mé daoibh.

Maidir le tairiscint curaclaim agus conairí, tá Coláiste Feirste neamhroghnach tríd an scoil iomlán, mar atá Gaelcholáiste Dhoire, ag iar-16, agus cuirimid fáilte roimh gach dalta fanacht agus a gcuid oideachais a chríochnú trí mheán na Gaeilge. Ach tá dúshlán mór romhainn ó thaobh curaclam cuí a thairiscint — mar go bhfuil muid teoranta le cáilíochtaí CCEA, agus, go pointe, WJEC anois. Tá muid ag forbairt roinnt printíseachtaí fosta i láthair na huaire. Ach is é an dúshlán is mó ná teacht ar speisialtóirí ar féidir leo na cailíochtaí sin a theagasc ag ardleibheál. Tá Coláiste Feirste in ann idir 25-27 cháilíocht a thairiscint ag leibheál TGMO faoi láthair - le go leor neamhspeisialtóirí, dála an scéil — ach tá an curaclam ardleibhéil teoranta le 15 ábhar le cúpla bliana anuas, de dheasca easpa muinteoirí speisialaithe. Agus tá an teidlíocht ag gach duine óg rogha leathan cáilíochtaí, idir ghinearálta agus feidhmeacha a bhaint amach. Tá plean de dhíth leis na speisialtóirí sin a fhorbairt.

Maidir le foghlaim ardchaighdeáin a choinneáil, fiú nuair a bhíonn na múinteoirí againn, is minic gur neamhspeisialtóirí iad. Tá sonraí ann in Aguisín 3. Ach tá an ceart ag gach dalta rochtain a fháil ar shaineola ó shainmhúinteoirí ábhair, go háirithe ag TGMO. Ach níl plean ann le tacú leis na múinteoirí ginearálta sin agus b’éigean dúinn ár scéim féin a eagrú ar bhonn ad hoc le Coláiste Muire agus le Sruthán Milis.

Ó thaobh cóimheas idir daltaí agus múinteoir de, tá impleachtaí ag an easpa soláthar múinteoirí don chóimheas idir daltaí agus Múinteoir mar nach féidir leis an earcú múinteoirí cos a choinneáil leis an fhás i líon na ndaltaí. Glactar leis go mbíonn cóimheas éagsúil de dhíth, ag brath ar chomhthéacs na foghlama. Tá Ollscoil na Ríona i mbun taighde faoi láthair faoin chóimheas san earnáil Gaeloideachais agus foilseofar tuairisc san Fhómhar. Beidh impleachtaí aige sin ar an phlean lucht saothair fosta.

I dtaca le Riachtanais Speisialta Oideachais (RSO) de, tá forsa saothair de chuntóirí ranga de dhíth go gearr. Tá 109 dalta a bhfuil ráiteas riachtanas speisialta oideachais acu i gColáiste Feirste faoi láthair agus tá an ceart acu tacaíocht chuí a fháil ó chúntoir ranga. Ach tá 466 uair a chloig tacaíochta nach bhfuil líonta faoi láthair. Bheadh 19 gcúntóir lánaimseartha de dhíth orainn chun na huaireanta sin a líonadh. Beidh 17 ndalta eile a bhfuil ráiteas acu ag tosú linn i mí Mheán Fómhair. Mar sin de, tá práinn leis an ghné seo den lucht saothair a phleanáil.

Maidir le hUalach oibre, bíonn múinteoirí taobh amuigh dá saineolas ag foghlaim cúrsaí den chéad uair agus ag ullmhú acmhainní foghlama. Cruthaíonn sé sin ualach oibre breise agus brú breise ar na múinteoirí sin. Seo ceist atá i mbéal an phobail, go háirithe i mbéal an phobail scoile faoi láthair agus leis na ceardchumainn. Tá an scéal 20 uair níos measa in éarnail an Ghaeloideachais. Bíonn na cinn roinne agus ceannairí scoile ag soláthar tacaíochta agus, bíonn ualach breise eile orthu dá bharr. Bíonn ar mhúinteoirí freagrachtaí breise ceannaireachta a dhéanamh de dheasca easpa foirne. Ar ndóigh, bíonn tionchar aige sin uilig ar an am agus an fuinneamh atá ag múinteoirí do chúram agus foghlaim na ndaltaí.

Maidir leis an Údarás Oideachais, ní bhaineann lucht saothair leis na scoileanna amháin, ach leis na daoine atá ar fáil le tacú le scoileanna. De ghnáth, cuidíonn an tÚdarás Oideachais leis na ceisteanna seo uilig: forbairt gairme agus cleachtais, tacaíocht dalta agus ceisteanna feabhsaithe scoile. Ach níl foireann ar leith ag an Údarás Oideachais, níl an taithí ná an saineolas acu le tacú leis na Gaelscoileanna. Níl oiread is cleachtóir amháin ón earnáil acu ag obair ar cheisteanna RSO don Ghaelscolaíocht.

Agus níl plean ann tabhairt faoin dúshlán sin. Mar sin de, bíonn muid linn féin go minic, rud a chuireann leis na dúshláin eile.

Maidir le CCEA, chomhaontaigh muid plean, bunaithe ar thosaíochtaí, le CCEA tá roinnt blianta ó shin chun acmhainní foghlama a sholáthar dár ndaltaí — na hacmhainní a bhíonn ag daltaí sna scoileanna Béarla. Is beag acmhainn atá faighte againn, áfach, de dheasca easpa foirne ag CCEA. Imríonn sin tionchar suntasach ar eispéireas foghlama na ndaltaí agus ar ualach oibre na múinteoirí.

Tá an ceart céanna ag daltaí Gaeloideachais ar an ardchaighdeán oideachais agus a fhaigheann a gcomhdhaltaí i scoileanna Béarla, rochtain ar lucht saothair speisialaithe chun freastal ar a gcuid riachtanas san áireamh. Tá dúshláin ar leith roimh na daltaí sin go fóill, áfach, in ainneoin ceannairí ó na Gaelscoile a bheith ag plé leis an Roinn ar feadh na mblianta le bearta praiticiúla a chur i bhfeidhm leis na dúshláin sin a mhaolú. Is é an taithí atá ag ceannairí scoile, baill foirne agus daltaí Gaelscoile ná nach mbíonn aon éifeacht phraiticiúil ag dualgas na Roinne forbairt earnála a spreagadh agus a éascú.

Ní rachaidh pleanáil an lucht saothair i ngleic leis na dúshláin ar fad atá roimh fhás agus forbairt na Gaelscolaíochta. Ní dhearnadh aon cheann de na bearta a mhol an earnáil i bpáipéar 2019 chuig an Roinn, ná i bpáipéar nuashonraithe Chomhairle na Gaelscolaíochta 2023 chuig an Roinn Oideachais, a chur chun cinn, áfach, agus ní chuirfear gan plean lucht saothair. Tá na dúshláin roimh na Gaelscoileanna agus an tionchar ar fhoghlaim na ndaltaí ag dul i méad i gcónaí dá dheasca. Sin an fáth, dar linne, a bhfuil gearrghá leis an phlean lucht saothair seo.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. If any member wishes to ask any of their questions in Irish, the simultaneous interpretation service is available for them to do so.

I know from my visit to Gaelcholáiste Dhoire that it is one of the most beautiful school sites that you could wish to visit.

Mr Ua Bruadair: We are very lucky.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Should anyone want to take a trip and add to their top five most beautiful school sites, it is definitely up there. It is a very special location.

I spoke at the Second Stage of the private Member's Bill, and I was very clear that I have no issues with the principles of the Bill, so I want to get down to the details of the practical effect that it might have. I wanted to pick up on SEN pressures to do with workforce. You highlighted the severe shortage of classroom assistants and the lack of representation when it comes to Education Authority support services and the local impact teams. Will you set out the impact of that shortage of specialist SEN inputs in your settings on pupils and staff?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: We take in anyone whom we can get. When it comes to qualifications, we have to take new classroom assistants through various courses and professional learning and development. Those young people leave very quickly, because, although they are very committed and very good with our young people, they are nevertheless passing through. They are people who might have finished university and are waiting to go on to another career. They might be taking time out of school. A number have been with us for a little bit longer, and they are absolutely brilliant. No one is touching the professional development of classroom assistants in an Irish-medium context except for us.

I turn to the day-to-day, practical effects on children. Say that we have 466 hours that we already cannot meet. We put children together with one classroom assistant where they should each have one-to-one support. At times, we put three or four together. If that classroom assistant does not come in, there is no support at all. Those children's parents can be very distressed at times because they know what support their children need, and they are not getting it. They do not get what they should get.

When it comes to the stresses on the school leadership, if you are wondering whether it is difficult being a school principal, it is much more difficult being a special educational needs coordinator (SENCO). Our SENCO and the team around her have to plug gaps constantly. They start in the morning with a plan of support, but they have to change it. Naturally enough, at times, pupils will have meltdowns and so on. Their parents will be worried, there is a lot of stress, and a lot of energy is wasted because of that.

Diarmaid, do you want to say anything about Gaelcholáiste Dhoire?

Mr Ua Bruadair: The issue is exacerbated when there is not enough support from the Education Authority or from outside the school for special educational needs work in the school. However, Irish-medium schools are very innovative; we have had to learn to twist and turn in order to make sure that the resources that we have are used well.

I am involved with the Roe Valley learning community, which comprises seven schools. Our SENCOs get together and share best practice, and we find that we have a lot to offer. In some ways, Irish-medium schools are a bit like a canary in a coal mine. The issues that we experience very strongly will soon be experienced in the wider educational sector. I am sure that some of the issues that we are talking about today will resonate with some principals in English-medium schools. However, we have been feeling that pinch for much longer.

There is an opportunity there to look at the way in which we have dealt with those issues, whether that is through secondment opportunities, working smarter, not harder, with the resources that we have, or the innovative use of specialist provision in mainstream schools (SPiMS) settings in order to ensure that the maximum number of pupils are getting the advantage of that. There are lessons to be learned for the wider education sector. We have fewer resources to work with, but we make that work in our own particular way.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Nobody would think it acceptable to have to make do and find workarounds. You want the service to be fit for purpose. Does it create challenges for the education provision for individual children when support services come from the EA into an Irish-medium setting, whether that be behavioural support, literacy support or educational psychologists, to deliver that support in a different language?

Mr Ua Bruadair: It does. It creates challenges, whether for special educational needs, teacher professional learning (TPL) or teacher development and support. We are very lucky, in the sense that we have one Irish-medium practitioner whom we can use and who was appointed, I think, a year-and-a-half ago.

I had a discussion with the TPL lead in our area learning community about a middle-leadership program to support and develop the skills of middle leaders. I was trying to get across that I would prefer that it was the Irish-medium specialist who delivered that in school. The answer was that the middle leadership programme is delivered in Catholic schools, controlled schools and integrated schools and that it is the same anywhere. Trying to get that idea across to someone who does not speak Irish, or who does not have an understanding of Irish-medium education, is difficult. If you have a GCSE maths book, you can use it in any of those settings if it is in English. However, it is of no use to me because I need the Irish version.

It may be a bit radical to say that, for me, there are two sectors; there is the English-medium sector and the Irish-medium sector. The English-medium sector has a variety of schools, but in the Irish-medium sector, we have controlled, Catholic maintained, other maintained schools, and now we have integrated schools as well. Teacher professional development, and everything else, requires to be provided in Irish. That has happened in our school, and we have found the benefits of it. However, it was difficult to get that message across, although I do think that it has now been taken on board.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: It is not always appreciated that Irish-medium education is not a translation of English-medium education; it is a different way of approaching the development of skills, understanding and knowledge in the classroom. It is about a different pedagogy; research says that there is something different happening even in the children's brains. That is why it adds value to a child's education, apart from anything else. That means that it requires not only a different textbook in Irish but a bespoke textbook that plans for the development of a child's learning in a particular way. That requires practitioners who understand that, and it requires those practitioners going out and working with the Education Authority in order to support schools.

Finally, 15 or 20 years ago, the EA had three people working on Irish-medium education; now it has only one — it may have another one somewhere. Although the Irish-medium sector has increased, the number of practitioners in the Education Authority has decreased, yet it has no plans to address that.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I will ask a brief question before moving on to other members. What I am hearing from your evidence is that, on the other side of the Bill, if it passes, the workforce plan needs to be about not just teachers but classroom assistants and EA support services. It needs to account for that whole ecosystem. Is that fair?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Absolutely, and even allied health services.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Yes, there is a Health angle as well. That is really helpful.

Mr Sheehan: Míle buíochas as teacht anseo inniu. Tá an dream atá ag cur in éadan an Bhille ag rá go dtabharfaidh sé buntáiste don Ghaelscolaíocht ar earnálacha eile. Cad é atá le rá agaibh faoi sin?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Mar a dúirt mé i mo chur i láthair tá prionsabal sa chóras oideachais go dtugann tú tacaíocht de réir riachtanais. Má tá tacaíocht de dhíth ar dhalta amháin níos mó ná dalta eile, faigheann an dalta sin tacaíocht sa scoil s’againn. Sin mar atá sé le cúntórí ranga. Faigheann daltaí áirithe cúntóir ranga, ach níl feidhm ag daltaí eile leis. Caithfimid amharc ar cad é ba mhaith linn a bhaint amach.

Ba mhaith linn go mbeadh an rochtain chéanna ag na daltaí uile ar an chaighdeán chéanna oideachais. Má tá dúshlán áirithe ann roimh earnáil áirithe, ba chóir don phlean tabhairt faoi na dúshláin áirithe sin. Is prionsabal é sin atá le feiceáil leis na scoileanna speisialta, mar shampla. Tá cur chuige difriúil ann, nó tá cur chuige difriúil de dhíth.

In amanna, b’fhéidir nach mbeadh an tacaíocht chéanna de dhíth in earnáil na Gaelscolaíochta. Ach is minic sinn ag toiseacht amach ó áit, b'fhéidir, nach bhfuil na hacmhainní againn, agus tá giota beag níos mó tacaíochta de dhíth faoi láthair. Tá an tacaíocht sin ann leis an chothromaíocht a bhaint amach, chan le buntáiste a thabhairt do pháiste amháin ar pháiste eile.

Faoi láthair, tá na páistí Gaelscoile faoi mhíbhuntáiste, agus tá muid ag iarraidh é sin a chur ina cheart.

Mr Ua Bruadair: Aontaím leis an mhéid atá ráite ag Mícheál. Má tá straitéis ar leith agat don Ghaelscolaíocht, sílim gur gá dúinn smaoineamh go bhfuil sin ina bhuntáiste don earnáil trí chéile agus don earnáil oideachais trí chéile. Má oibríonn rud éigin le múinteoirí in earnáil atá chomh beag lenár n-earnáilse, gan an oiread sin acmhainne a chaitheamh air, agus má tá ag éirí go maith leis, cén fáth nach féidir an cur chuige sin a leathnú amach trasna na n-earnálacha difriúla agus b’fhéidir feabhas a chur ar an earnáil oideachais trí chéile?

Mar a dúirt Mícheál, is faoi dhaoine eile, dar liom, an breithiúnas a dhéanamh an bhfuil siad ag tabhairt buntáiste míchothrom d’earnáil ar leith ar earnáil eile. Is cleachtas ciallmhar oideachasúil é, atá bunaithe ar an taithí, lena chinntiú go bhfuil múinteoirí againn do na scoileanna atá ag feidhmiú sa phobal. Sa chás seo, níl go leor lucht saothair againn.

Mr Sheehan: Maith go leor. Is fíor a rá gurb í an chothromaíocht atá sibh a lorg, agus chan an buntáiste.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Sin é go díreach. Ba chóir do dhaltaí Gaeloideachais an rochtain chéanna bheith acu ar shainmhúinteoirí ábhair agus ar lucht saothair agus atá ag daltaí sna scoileanna Béarla.

Mr Sheehan: Maith go leor. Dúirt an tAire Oideachais nach bhfuil gá leis an Bhille seo. Tá seisean ag dul a thabhairt straitéise chun tosaigh ar an bhliain seo chugainn, sílim, agus dá bharr sin, dúirt sé nach mbeidh aon ghá leis an Bhille. An aontaíonn sibh leis?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Is ionann straitéis agus an rud ba chóir a dhéanamh; is ionann plean agus an rud atá ag dul a tharlú. Phléigh muid straitéis leis an Roinn, agus aontaímid leis an chuid is mó de na pointí le blianta fada.

In 2019, bhí cruinniú againn leis an Roinn. Chomhaontaigh muid ar roinnt gníomhartha ciallmhara le tabhairt faoin tsoláthar muinteoirí. In 2020, chomhaontaigh muid páipéar leis an Roinn Oideachais agus leis an Údáras Oideachais faoi cad é a bheadh de dhíth leis an mhéid sin a bhaint amach. In 2023, chuir Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta na moltaí uile le chéile sa pháipéar ‘Ensuring Effective Teacher Supply in the Irish-Medium Sector’. In 2024, d’fhreastail mé ar chomhdháil de chuid na Roinne Oideachais faoi lucht saothair, darb ainm "pleanáil lucht saothair". Bhí an Ghaelscolaíocht mar chuid de na mórspriocanna sin.

Ach tá seacht mbliana caite ó bhí 2019 ann. Go fóill, níor tharla rud ar bith. Níl difear praiticiúil ar bith le feiceáil sna scoileanna. Tá an fhadhb ag éirí níos measa. Cad chuige? Mar gur cuma faoi na smaointe uile, agus gur cuma faoi na straitéisí uile: mura bhfuil plean ann leis an straitéis a chur i bhfeidhm, le difear a dhéanamh sna scoileanna, ní tharlóidh rud ar bith.

Sin an tábhacht atá le plean anois, gan bheith ag fanacht le straitéis. Is féidir le straitéis plean a chur i gcomhthéacs agus é a cheangal le pleananna eile agus dá réir sin, ach tá plean de dhíth orainn anois.

Tá Meán Fómhair ag teacht. Tá rud éigin de dhíth againn faoi Mheán Fómhair, agus déarfainn nach mbeadh sé i bhfeidhm faoi mhí Mheán an Fhómhair. Tá práinn leis.

Mr Sheehan: Tá seantaithí agaibh ar straitéisí ag teacht ón Roinn Oideachais. Bhí mé ag labhairt le duine ar an tseachtain seo caite ag an chomhdháil TransformED a dúirt liom go ndúirt an tAire Oideachais, "The Department is full of strategies that are gathering dust on the shelves." Cad é bhur meas air sin?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Is cuimhin liom an straitéis maidir le nuatheangacha, ó 2015, sílim, agus shíl mé go raibh sí iontach suimiúil. Deich mbliana ina dhiaidh sin, cá bhfuil na nuatheangacha sna scoileanna? Ba mhaith linn nuatheangacha a fhorbairt: an Spáinnis, an Fhraincis, an Ghearmáinis agus dá réir sin. Ní thig linn na múinteoirí a fháil, mar níl rud ar bith ag tarlú sna hollscoileanna agus sna scoileanna eile. Sin sampla de straitéis nach raibh plean léi lena cur i bhfeidhm le difear a dhéanamh. Mar sin de, is breá linn uilig bheith ag caint faoi straitéisí, ach cad é a tharlaíonn mar gheall orthu? Sa taithí s’againn, ní tharlaíonn faic.

Mr Ua Bruadair: Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon easaontas ann idir an earnáil, muidne agus Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta maidir leis na dúshláin agus na réitigh is féidir a chur i bhfeidhm leis na dúshláin sin a shárú. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon neamhréir ann an Roinn a bheith ag cur straitéis le chéile agus an moladh seo le reachtaíocht a thabhairt isteach le tacú leis an obair sin uilig, nó tá siad ag bogadh sa treo chéanna. Is rud maith é go bhfuil muid uile ar an leathanach chéanna.

Mr Sheehan: Go raibh maith agaibh.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Jon, you indicated, but I see that your hand is now down. Are you still looking to come in?

Mr Burrows: Yes. I cannot see the translation, and my Irish is not up to scratch. I will ask the question, and at least it can be on the record. If I cannot understand the answer, I can look it up.

Thanks for your evidence so far. I will have a look at the translation later. Ballycastle shared education campus is opening in my constituency, and it will represent a world-class and mutually beneficial arrangement for both communities. Is working in collaboration with other schools in a similar format something that you are willing to consider and entertain, particularly if they had Irish-speaking staff?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: We are involved in shared education with three other schools in Belfast and in a cross-border project with a couple of schools in County Down and in the South. There is always room for collaboration, but I go back to what I explained about Irish-medium pedagogy. Teachers who work in Irish-medium education are not Irish speakers; they are people who are trained to teach specialist subjects through the medium of Irish. For example, teaching maths through the medium of Irish takes more than a maths teacher who has learned some Irish; it takes someone who is trained to understand how to develop mathematical concepts and activities around them to support their being learned through the medium of Irish. Yes, there may be some benefits to that sort of collaboration, and that is one of the ideas. However, the problem is that we have lots of little ideas floating about that everyone thinks are interesting or good, but, without a plan, it will never happen; it is just another idea.

Mr Burrows: OK. Fair enough. I will ask one other question. A lot of people who come to the Committee need more money — we hear that across the piece in public services in Northern Ireland — but, given that you talk about some of this stuff in your evidence, which workforce intervention would deliver the greatest impact for the lowest cost?

Mr Ua Bruadair: The cost-benefit analysis has been debated over the years. We have tried them all at a school level. We are willing to share and have shared our experience with the Department. We have tried secondments, as was mentioned, whereby teachers who speak Irish and could be trained and then work in our school — they may, however, be apprehensive about making an immediate and permanent leap into Irish-medium education — are facilitated to come to us on secondment to work for a year or two years, during which they gain experience and confidence and decide to stay.

That is a nearly cost-neutral way of making it work, but investment will be needed in initial teacher training: we need more. We need a post-primary PGCE — we are both post-primary-school principals — that is a bespoke qualification for Irish-medium post-primary education, which we do not have. Some expenditure will be required, but, as was said, in a climate in which resources are scant, it will be important to get the best deal on whatever resource is available. That comes through engagement with the sector and looking at our experience and that of Coláiste Feirste. Our experience has been slightly different, but we have tried out at school level all the proposals in the paper that we submitted, and, with a small amount of resource, those could be scaled up system-wide.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: We had input into the 'Ensuring Effective Teacher Supply in the Irish-medium Sector' paper that Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta published in 2023. That was a collation of all the ideas that had been knocked about and more or less agreed with the Department over a number of years. There were a couple of things that would not cost very much, such as a repurposing of PGCE places into a proper Irish-medium PGCE. At present, there are eight places, most of which are taken up by non-specialists: people with degrees in Irish. Repurposing the eight places would initially require a little marketing and recruitment and a bit of drive.

Secondly, we lose a lot of young teachers to travel, not just from Irish-medium schools but across the board. They used to go to Qatar and places like that; now, it seems to be Australia. A lot of those people eventually come back, but, when they do so, they have missed several years of what they have been trained to do, which is to teach in Irish-medium education. They have a little anxiety about going back into the sector, so they take the first job that comes along, which, if it is in English-medium education, is a waste of resource. For a limited amount of money, there could be a programme that keeps a record of where those young teachers go and makes contact with them when they come back to offer them a short course to upskill them again so that they get their confidence back and are tied back into the sector. There is a bit of wastage when we train people in Irish-medium education and some of them go off and do not return to the Irish-medium sector when they come back.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I will have to bring that line of enquiry to a close because of time constraints.

Ms Hunter: Go raibh maith agaibh.

to the panel. Maith sibh.

on that substantial briefing. That was my limited knowledge of the Irish language, although I am trying. Thank you so much for being here.

I have had the privilege of visiting Gaelcholáiste Dhoire a number of times over the years. Your briefing today has been extremely helpful and, sadly, eye-opening. The situation is worse than I had initially thought. With Pat's Bill, we see the importance of equity. We have seen decades of underinvestment in Irish-medium schools. It is so important that our staff get the career development and support that they need in order to ensure that the sector is protected. One of you referred to working smarter, not harder with the resources that you have. That is a devastating way of putting it and very revealing of how much pressure your staff are under and how stretched they are in serving children.

I have two quick questions. Are you aware of struggles related to specialists who provide developmental language disorder support for children in Irish-medium settings? Years ago, Diarmaid, I was struck by your talking about how English-speaking markers were marking the papers of Irish-speaking students. Will you share a bit about that with the Committee? Has anything changed since we spoke all those years ago?

Mr Ua Bruadair: I will address that final question first. You are referring to the CCEA exams: in some instances and in a number of subjects, Irish-medium examiners are not available to mark A levels and GCSEs, so pupils' papers are translated into English and marked by an English-medium examiner. That is fraught with difficulties and issues. It requires that an additional resource be applied, usually by the school itself, to quality assure the process and make sure that there are no anomalies or errors and that children get the grade to which they are entitled and that they deserve.

That is an example of where the Irish-medium sector could work more intelligently with the resource that it has. The use of a translator in CCEA to translate a paper is a one-off translation job that is thrown in the bin after the paper has been marked. If that translator could work on a resource used for teaching, however, that resource would be available for years to come. It is my view that the markers' criteria and examiner system are an example of how we are spending too much money unwisely and getting a poor return on our investment. If it could be done in a better way, it would be fairer for the children and make more financial sense for the system.

Ms Hunter: I imagine that that has a knock-on impact on grades, because the knowledge and insight that the student has put into the document are lost in translation.

Mr Ua Bruadair: It does not have a knock-on impact on grades: systems are in place to ensure that errors are picked up. Children get the grade that they are entitled to: no more, no less. The problem is the amount of resource that is wasted on that system when a more efficient system would save money and be more streamlined.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): There was a question on developmental language delay. We are up against it with time.

Mr Ua Bruadair: That was the hard question: I think that I will give that one to Mícheál [Laughter.]

Ms Hunter: If you do not have the knowledge to hand, that is OK; I can follow up on that personally.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: I do not have specific knowledge. There is a big issue with speech and language at primary school and early years in particular, and people are not picking up on that early enough. Obviously, early attention is vital to ensure that a child is not put off education. That is a much bigger issue than simply the workforce, and it may require a more detailed discussion at a later time.

Ms Hunter: Go raibh maith agat.

I have picked up some strong points today about the strategic aspects of funding and about early intervention, so thank you so much for being here. It is much appreciated.

Mr Brooks: Thanks for the presentation. The challenges that you speak of today — Pat knows our view on this — are things that I see reflected, and we can discuss whether there is a greater need in your sector than in others. However, as you said, there are things that are seen across the education system, such as the health elements and speech and language therapy, and we discuss at length the difficulty accessing that and how that prevents children reaching their full potential.

Given the current financial restrictions, my fear is that raising one sector above another will take from sectors that are already struggling, so where does that leave them? You are welcome to speak to that. I will not focus on that — we know where we are — but I am happy for you to comment on that if you wish.

I was interested in one of the comments that you made at the start. It was around the pedagogy in our schools being different and this being about not only a different language but a different focus in how you teach it. As someone who has not been through that, can you explain that further for me?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: OK. A child in an Irish-medium classroom is doing two things at once. They are developing language, and the experts will say that they are using different parts of their brain and that there is a different cognitive developmental curve when people learn through two languages. By the way, immersion education is not particular to here, and it is not particular to the Irish language; it is worldwide. It is seen as a very good model of education, and we believe that it creates a very powerful learning environment for young people.

Mr Brooks: You are saying that it is about learning through a different language, whatever that language is, rather than it being a specific focus or culture in the Irish-medium sector.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Yes. Immersion education is practised throughout the world: for example, in Hawaii, for Native American students in Minnesota, and in Finland. It is recognised right across the world. In fact, our experience here is of international interest, and the Department of Education should celebrate that we have something here that is of interest educationally right across the world. Something really interesting is happening here.

A lot of focus has been on Canada because it has the wealth to do more research, to celebrate what it is doing and to explain what it is doing. That is missing from the Department. It should be celebrating what we are doing in Irish-medium education here.

We have talked a lot about the problems here, but we need to look at the positives as well. We are not doing this just because we have an interest in the Irish language. We are doing it because we believe that it is a very successful model of education.

In Coláiste Feirste, for example, 50% of pupils are in receipt of free school meals. There is a lot of social deprivation, and a lot of other issues go along with that. We also have pupils from more affluent backgrounds, but none of our pupils ends up not in education, employment or training (NEET), and that has been the case for many years. That is because they are engaged in education through the Irish language in a way that their parents were not and their peers in other schools are not. It means that something different is happening in the classroom cognitively — in the students' brains. Also, because we have a very strong school community, we can make sure that they go where they want to go. Therefore, we are very successful in that, but we are doing it in a very difficult way, in that we have to do it, by and large, on our own. We have to come up with our own solutions and innovations.

We have to go to St Mary's or Stranmillis and say, "Listen, we have teachers who are teaching maths or science and don't actually have a degree. Could you come in and help them — talk them through how you'd address some of those concepts?" We are doing all that on our own. A workforce plan would make things a lot easier for us and even better for the pupils. Therefore, rather than seeing this as a negative, we have a real opportunity,

Mr Brooks: I do not doubt the good educational work that you do, just as our other schools do. Your idea of a short course for returning teachers is interesting. This is the first time that I have heard of that. It would be specific to you as well. You hear of teachers coming back even from England having taught in a different system and needing a refresher on what they need to know here, so that is an interesting idea. It probably touches on whether there is a need.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): You need to be brief, David.

Mr Brooks: You talked about Health and Economy stuff. Some of that is about training, and some of that will come through education. With regard to the PGCE and getting specialists in, that is obviously a STEM issue. STEM subjects are a difficulty for many schools. Is anything being done by the Department for the Economy on that, or is there anything that you would like to see the Department doing?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: That is a very good question, given that, at times, the Department for the Economy is not in the room with the Department of Education, and it needs to be in the room. About two years ago, I had a very good meeting that was looking at the 14-to-19 strategy. We have a big issue with that strategy and the curriculum offer for Irish-medium pupils, particularly on the vocational side. As I said, we are developing our own through apprenticeships and so on to develop a relationship between schools and apprenticeships through a training organisation called Gaelchúrsaí. It was a good meeting with the Department for the Economy. There were a lot of good ideas and a lot of agreement, but, again, where is the plan? Nothing has happened since, so the Department of Education and the Department for the Economy absolutely need to be planning a lot of this jointly, and there would be input from other —.

Mr Ua Bruadair: Sorry to interrupt, Mícheál. There are three areas where the Department for the Economy could assist. One is careers advice and guidance. There is not a lot of information about careers in Irish medium through Irish and Irish-medium education. The second, as Mícheál said, is joined-up thinking between the Department of Education and the Department for the Economy on qualifications, especially vocational qualifications. They need to focus on the university places that are available and on making them work for the sector through the PGCE or initial teacher training.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That may be an aspect that we pick up even separately from the Bill. I do not think that we have had that connection with the Department for the Economy raised in relation to Irish medium before, so that is helpful.

Mr Baker: Go raibh maith agaibh

folks. I want to focus on just one area. I understand this as a parent of children going through Irish-medium education who is not fluent himself, and I recognise the constant translation workload of teachers who send the work to us so that we understand what is going on. I also have a wee bit of a fear about something that came up a couple of times during the Second Stage debate on the Bill. The Minister highlighted the use of artificial intelligence for translation and to help with the workload. What concerns do you have about that?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: The conversation about remote learning and the role of technology in learning happened during COVID and lockdown. Maybe I am a little bit traditional, but I believe that learning happens between people and that the relationships between teachers and young people are vital to that. We can present young people with knowledge and tell them to go off and learn it, but it is about engaging young people in learning, and those are the activities that a teacher will organise to make the learning accessible to the young person.

That is my traditional view. That said, we all have to move with the times. Obviously, there is a role for technology and AI. We had Classroom 2000 — C2k — in 2000. That was 25 years ago, so we need to look again at educational technology, and there will be benefits for Irish medium within that. However, I do not think that it is a silver bullet or that it will change the need for teachers and classroom assistants — people supporting people in order to get them through the most vital years of their lives, particularly the post-primary/teenage years. That is the real work that we do. It is not about delivering a curriculum to them. It is about motivating them, engaging them in learning, building their confidence and dealing with whatever issues they might have, such as a learning or emotional difficulty. It is about taking them through all of that to ensure that they end up where they should end up, which is in education, employment or training.

Mr Baker: I share that view, 100%. There is a space for technology, but my fear is that it will almost become a case of, "There you go. There's artificial intelligence", and that it will be expected to solve some of the problems that are being raised, particularly in the Bill. This has to be said again: Members voted in the Chamber against the principle of the Bill and probably had not read a single line of it. That is a worry. I do not think that there is a real understanding of the different challenges facing Irish-medium education. Thanks very much. That was the only point that I wanted to make.

Mrs Guy: Thanks, folks, for the evidence. You outlined well in your briefing and in this session some of the challenges that are facing the Irish-medium sector. The Department has suggested that, if the Bill goes forward, it will impact on some of the other work that it is doing in the Irish-medium sector. What is your reaction to that?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: How would it affect it? How would the Bill affect other issues?

Mrs Guy: That is not for me to answer; it is for the Department.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: I do not know either. I cannot see how a workforce planning Bill and having a plan to address workforce issues would affect any other issues that could be moved forward regarding Irish-medium education.

Mr Ua Bruadair: I go back to what I said earlier in answer to, I think, Pat Sheehan's question. It is a rare occurrence that everybody around the table is agreed on the problem, the solutions and the things that can be done in mitigation, whether it is with the sector, Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta, the Department working on the strategy or the proposer of the Bill. We are all working towards the same goal. If we are genuine in our efforts, I cannot see how the fact that the Department is working on a strategy that will be bolstered, helped and supported by the Bill will take away from any other work. Look at the positives, Michelle. It is great that we are all on the same page.

Mrs Guy: In a few answers, you talked about staff retention and about people getting trained and then going off to other countries. Will you talk a bit more about that and how you see this legislation helping to address the problem of retention?

Mr Ua Bruadair: The Department, the Assembly and the Bill's proposer will have their views, but, from my point of view, a plan is about looking at what actions need to be taken to resolve the issues that are facing us and having an understanding and analysis of those issues. If one of the issues is retention, what are the factors that make it a problem? What actions need to be taken to address that? Any plan is about the actions. We have discussed a lot of the ideas, but there is no action around those ideas. I have been dealing with the Department since 2019 on this issue, and there has not been any action since then. That is not because the departmental officials are not listening. I think that they are listening, I think that they understand, and I think that they are in agreement, but one vital piece is missing: the action plan. Sometimes, I get a feeling that, unless priority is given to an action plan, departmental officials will have another meeting, another meeting and another meeting to talk about strategy and never go anywhere with it.

We have discussed a few ideas around retention. Obviously, retention is to do with pay and conditions. Part of the conditions within Irish-medium education is workload and the extra workload. Part of the issue with retention of people who have maybe left for a few years — it is good that people can get an opportunity to go off for a few years and do other things — is how we get them back. There are ideas around that, but there is no action around it. I come back to the point that we are in agreement about the measures that can be taken, and in broad agreement about all the recommendations, but it is about how you bring that into action. That is the missing piece here.

Mrs Guy: Is it the statutory framework, I guess, of the legislation, in and of itself, that makes that happen and provides the certainty of the action, I suppose, rather than the content itself? Is it the fact that there will be statutory weight behind the workforce plan that gives you confidence that it could be realised, rather than just agreed upon? Would that be fair?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Yes. Absolutely.

Mrs Guy: OK. David talked about other jurisdictions and immersive education. You guys got into that idea of immersive education. You said that there is a lot of interest locally in what you are doing. Is anything happening in some of those other countries that you think would be useful, or could be applied here, to help with the Irish-medium sector?

Mr Ua Bruadair: Of course, Wales is the big issue. When Micheál was talking to David on that particular question, I was trying to get my head — I am always trying to get my head round a way in which you can impress on people who do not speak Irish, or another language, what an immersive education is like. If you imagine teaching in the British school in Barcelona, where all the children in the class are maybe speakers of Spanish, Arabic or different languages, and you are teaching maths through English, you basically need to teach English and maths at the same time and really get them going that way. That is a bit of an idea.

Recently, I have had two visitors to the school who have really impacted on that. One was a teacher who had worked in our school and is now working in the British school in Lisbon. They came back and were talking about the similarities between working in an immersive setting here and working in Lisbon. The second visitor was the principal of the Jordanstown School for deaf children, who is looking at signing and the fact that sign language is a recognised language. A lot of the pupils who come to her school are partially hearing but need to learn that new language. While it is not exactly the same — of course it is not — there are lessons to learn in the way in which we emphasise the use of the language every day both outside and inside the classroom and in how the school is trying to create an immersive environment within which those children can learn to sign.

There are lessons to be learned across the board that we can learn, yes. Wales is probably a very good example of where the education system has benefited from strong and focused legislation that supports the use of the language and the promotion of the benefits of bilingualism throughout the whole of society. Maybe that is something that we can look to as well.

Mrs Guy: That is great. Thank you very much, folks. I appreciate your answers.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): There are no other indications at this stage. I had one final question. If you do not feel as though you are in a position to answer it, that is OK. It is on the specifics of the Bill. Going back to my initial questions, a fair bit of concern was raised around the EA services going into that immersive setting and there being no Irish specialists or input coming in from that at all, really. Do you think that it would be helpful for the Bill to specify, when we are talking about workforce, that we are talking about more than school staff, and that it maybe needs to specify that the Education Authority is part of that, because it all links into what happens in your schools?

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: If the Education Authority is not involved, I am not sure how many of the actions will be taken forward, because an awful lot of it is around school improvement, teacher professional learning and those sorts of issues, and the support for schools. At the minute, schools are picking up the slack because there is no one helping us. Therefore, that would be important. CCEA also has a role, and that is a slightly different issue, but the big barrier, CCEA has told us, is the workforce. It does not have the people to do the work even if it had the budget.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is helpful. My worry about the Bill is that the Department has set out its stall and does not think it is necessary. I worry that it will find a way to do as little as possible with the Bill. If they could just make it about teacher supply, they could maybe just do that, which would be helpful, but it is classroom assistants, local impact teams and CCEA staff as well.

Mr Ua Bruadair: The work of the EA is central to school improvement and supporting staff all over. Ideally, a member of each team or area of work in the EA would have an Irish-medium background or could support Irish-medium schools. We do not know whether the Bill will deliver that, but it is definitely required.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): We can reflect on that. Thank you for your time today; it was very much appreciated.

Mr Mac Giolla Ghunna: Thank you for the opportunity. Go raibh maith agat.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): For members who joined online, it was suggested that there would be an option to hear the presentation in English. Apologies to anyone who expected that and was not able to access it. A full copy of the Hansard report in English will be provided to all members.