Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): I welcome to the Committee from Altram Áine Andrews, the chairperson; and Aisling Walls, manager. We also have Theresa Brady and Sinéad McConnell joining us from two particular settings. All are representing Altram.

We are pleased to facilitate your evidence session on the Bill. I will now hand over to you and ask you to make some opening remarks. You will have up to 10 minutes for your opening presentation, after which Committee members will ask questions.

Ms Áine Andrews (Altram): Ar dtús ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Choiste as an deis an cur i láthair seo a thabhairt inniu.

I thank everyone for the invitation to speak to the Committee. Aisling will speak first. She will provide an overview of Altram's work and the challenges that we have, after which I will speak more directly to the Bill.

Ms Aisling Walls (Altram): Tráthnóna maith daoibh.

First, as Áine said, I will provide some insight into the scope of Irish-medium (IM) early years education, while exploring some of the key challenges that we have identified. As a starting point, it will be worthwhile for me to set the scene about practice in the sector.

Irish-medium early years education is delivered through an immersion model, which is a globally recognised, evidence-based approach to bilingual education. In an immersion setting, Irish is not simply taught as a subject; it is the language through which children learn, play, communicate and interact. Drawing on established research on immersion education and language acquisition, practitioners create carefully planned, language-rich experiences through stories, songs, routines, play and everyday conversations. Through those interactions, children acquire Irish naturally, while developing communication skills, cognitive ability and early learning. That reflects the core principle of immersion education, where language acquisition and educational development occur together.

For most children attending Irish-medium early years provision, that is their first meaningful exposure to the language, with more than 90% coming from homes in which Irish is not spoken. Practitioners therefore play a highly specialised role, supporting children's development and their acquisition of Irish as an additional language. That requires expertise in early childhood education and immersion pedagogy, meaning that the workforce requirements of Irish-medium provision differ significantly from those in mainstream early years settings.

Although the Irish-medium sector has seen welcome growth, the preschool phase remains the critical bridge between early childhood experiences and formal education. As demand grows and new opportunities emerge through the early learning and childcare strategy, workforce readiness becomes increasingly important, yet Altram's state of the sector report from 2025 identifies significant workforce and sustainability challenges across the sector. To place those challenges in context, there are around 1,500 children currently attending Irish-medium early years provision across a range of services, which are delivered by around 220 practitioners.

The challenge here is not a lack of demand but a lack of available workforce to sustain and grow services. Fluctuations in provision limit access to Irish-medium pathways and create uncertainty for families seeking continuity in their children's educational journey. In short, unless workforce planning addresses recruitment, retention and sustainability, opportunities for growth will remain constrained.

Evidence from our state of the sector research highlights significant challenges. Some 76% of respondents identified workforce shortage as a major concern. The same proportion highlighted insufficient funding as a barrier to sustainability. Some 65% of respondents identified a lack of accredited training and leadership pathways. Some 59% raised concerns about special educational needs (SEN) provision through Irish and limited understanding of immersion education across statutory services. Those findings point to systemic challenges that require a coordinated, long-term response. Ultimately, many stem from difficulties in recruiting, developing and retaining the specialist workforce on which the sector depends.

Recruitment remains one of the most significant challenges facing settings. The dual skill set requirements significantly reduce the available recruitment pool and create workforce pressures distinct from those experienced elsewhere in the wider early years education system. Recruitment is only part of the challenge, however. Retention has become equally important. Irish-medium preschools and early years settings consistently report difficulties with retaining experienced practitioners due to limited progression opportunities, increasing workload pressures, insufficient professional recognition, salary inequity and disparities between voluntary and statutory provision. The loss of experienced staff represents the loss of linguistic expertise, mentoring capacity, leadership potential and specialist immersion knowledge, all of which cannot be easily replaced.

Those challenges are not future concerns but current realities. Over the past five years, we have lost three Irish-medium Sure Start programmes as a result of recruitment and retention difficulties. Demand for services remains strong, yet providers were unable to secure the Irish-speaking workforce required to sustain provision. Those pressures are already having an impact on service delivery and are limiting growth. Sinéad and Theresa can give some the Committee some insight into their experience of that.

The workforce challenges extend beyond individual settings and have implications for children, families, communities and wider public policy objectives. As recognised in the Children's Services Co-operation Act 2015, improving outcomes for children requires coordinated action across Departments and agencies. Irish-medium early years provision contributes directly to those outcomes, making workforce planning a cross-departmental priority.

A legislative framework is an important first step, but meaningful change will depend on the workforce infrastructure and capacity required to implement it in practice. One of Altram's key recommendations from its state of the sector report is the establishment of a dedicated regional Irish-medium early years workforce development officer post to provide strategic leadership, workforce planning, recruitment and retention support, leadership development and professional learning across the sector.

Importantly, the sector is not starting from a blank page. Through our work with settings, Departments, training providers and statutory agencies, Altram is uniquely positioned to support that work. We already deliver training, SEN capacity building and professional learning across the sector. We also provide on-site support and mentoring, conducting over 300 site visits annually. We support outcomes for children and families through resource development and early intervention in speech and language therapy (SLT) collaborative projects. Much of that work, however, is sustained by short-term grants and funding slippage, rather than through stable, long-term investment.

A key example of workforce capacity building is our partnership with the Open College Network NI (OCN NI) to develop accredited qualifications that are specifically designed for Irish-medium early years practitioners, recognising immersion pedagogy as a specialist discipline and supporting the professionalisation of the sector. Workforce development requires more than workforce plans alone; it requires stable infrastructure and the expertise and capacity to deliver training, mentoring and workforce development. Altram increasingly provides that infrastructure for the Irish-medium early years sector. Like many organisations in the community and voluntary sector, however, we continue to operate in conditions of funding uncertainty, which places pressure on the retention of our skilled staff and limits our capacity to plan for the long term.

If workforce development and implementation support are to be delivered, we require a fair and sustainable funding landscape that allows for workforce stability, pay parity and the retention of specialist expertise. A more resolute legislative approach, however, is needed, as strategy alone cannot address the sector's workforce challenges. Although strategy provides vision and direction, legislation provides accountability and a mechanism for delivery. We therefore view the Irish-medium Education (Workforce Plan) Bill , which gives legislative momentum to the Irish-medium education strategy, as a complementary measure to support the long-term sustainability of Irish-medium education.

From the perspective of the Irish-medium early years sector, preschool and early years provision, particularly in the voluntary sector, has historically operated with limited legislative recognition and support, despite underpinning the entire Irish-medium education sector and providing children with the foundations necessary for a successful immersion education. Although significant focus has been placed on primary and post-primary education, the specialist workforce training and sustainability needs of Irish-medium early years have often been overlooked. Workforce planning must therefore reflect the full Irish-medium educational continuum, including the early years sector in its entirety. Go raibh maith agaibh.

I will now hand over to Áine, who will speak more directly to the Bill.

Ms Andrews: My involvement in Irish-medium education goes back 50 years to my role in the very first Irish-medium school here, which was established in the 1970s. I have maintained active and consistent participation and a strategic, operational, representative and advocacy-level role ever since. My long career in Irish-medium education has put me in a prime position to see the growth of Irish-medium education and the emerging challenges. I have seen how awareness, attitudes and actions in the Department of Education have altered, from policy and funding to more effective infrastructural support systems. Although none of that could have happened without constant campaigning from practitioners and parents in the Irish-medium sector or without the consistent, measured and informed advocacy of key players, it would be churlish of me to deny that progress has been made or to fail to recognise that we now operate in a context that is decidedly more benevolent. Nevertheless, significant challenges remain.

Article 89 of the Education Order 1998, which placed a duty on the Department of Education:

was a legislative landmark. It was and remains the only legislative protection for Irish-medium education. Despite the legal imperative in article 89, however, there has been justified criticism that the Department of Education's approach to its statutory duty has been less than fulsome. We believe that the insufficiently precise or explicit wording in article 89 left the achievement of a more comprehensive implementation vulnerable or compromised.

The Bill brings additional legislative force to a particularly problematic aspect of Irish-medium delivery. Having a properly trained workforce in sufficient numbers to meet demand and training that is fit for purpose is an absolute prerequisite for the delivery of a provision that meets the needs of pupils and the expectations of practitioners and parents. The Bill can ensure that there is no ambiguity in the legal requirement, so we strongly welcome it. We do not regard it as a benefit that privileges Irish-medium over other sectors; we regard it as an attempt to level the playing field. It is affirmative action to redress a legacy of decades of underfunding and inadequate support.

We have a few comments to make, but, first, we have a question, and it relates to the issue of training, as mentioned in the Bill. Unfortunately, training for Irish-medium education is often seen only in the context of skills in Irish language competence or in the need to offer existing, generic training in Irish. The need for training content to be specific to an immersion context has not been as readily factored into the picture. Additionally, training for the Irish-medium sector has been dominated for many years by a training model that priorities generic competences over immersion-specific competences. Those are generic competences developed by the General Teaching Council (GTC) or within the mandatory qualifications framework for early years. That situation has not been to the benefit of practitioners or children.

Following funding from DE, Altram has developed a training pathway for early years immersion training, including a significant section on immersion-specific competences, that now complements the mandatory qualifications framework. Most of those competences also apply across Key Stage 1 and Key Stage 2. They still apply, albeit with less intensity, at Key Stage 3. That work allowed us to input significantly into the new initial teacher education framework, which, for the first time, contains a substantial section on immersion-specific competences. It is important to maintain focus on that significant development by referencing the specificity of the training in the Bill. We wonder whether it is possible at this stage to insert the words:

in proposed new article 89ZA(5)(c) of the 1998 Order.

I will now refer to the Bill insofar as it supports or impacts on the challenges facing Altram. Aisling has given an exposition of the breadth of provision in Irish-medium early years and the challenges involved. Provision includes child and day care, Sure Start, programmes for two-year-olds and voluntary preschools. Altram's work also includes regular in situ practitioner support; workshops; training days, including for regulatory nursery classes; resource development for children, practitioners and families; committee support; representation; and advocacy. Increasingly, our expertise is being called upon to provide immersion-based insights into generic educational training delivered by agencies outside the sector. Aisling has also given particular prominence to the significant issues of recruitment and retention in services and how they compromise opportunities and learning outcomes for children.

We understand that clause 1 of Bill is to insert a new article after article 89 of the Education Order 1998 and function within the constraints of article 89. That presents a problem for our organisation. Article 89 defines Irish-medium education as:

That definition does not cover the range of early years Irish immersion services within Altram's remit, including voluntary preschool immersion services. In effect, it would appear that the Bill cannot offer a solid legislative framework to meet Altram's challenges regarding recruitment, retention and training for child and day care and in voluntary preschool settings, nor does it meet the additional staffing needs that Altram may have in rolling out potential new Irish-medium-specific training to practitioners at preschool and foundation stage, where it is most needed.

The Bill is far-sighted and ambitious in its intent. It recognises the importance of having a properly trained workforce in sufficient numbers to meet demand, with training that is fit for purpose. It places the route to its achievement within an unambiguous, irrefutable legislative context. It appears, however, that, because of the wording of article 89, an important component is missing. That cannot but be a concern.

It may be worth noting that statutory guidance on Gàidhlig-medium education provided by Bòrd na Gàidhlig under section 9 of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2016 gives a broader definition of Gàidhlig-medium education than is contained in our article 89. Its definition is:

For many speakers in this part of the world, Welsh language legislation is generally recognised as the gold standard to aspire to. The Bill may be based on the Welsh model. For that reason, it may be worth noting that Mudiad Meithrin, the agency that supports the Welsh language childcare sector in Wales, has a budget of more than £9 million, over £5 million of which comes from central government.

Our organisation has worked hard to raise awareness of the importance of early years, preschool and Foundation Stage and the role that they play in Irish-immersion education, the substantial additional skills required of practitioners and the complexity and challenge of the task. We have had to work hard to raise that awareness even in the Irish-medium sector. Our experience as an IM early years support organisation over many years has given us a keen awareness that early years is the poor relation of the education sector in status and priority.

The Bill's apparent limitations are frustrating, but those limitations are rooted, we believe, in the wording of article 89. Nevertheless, we recognise the potential progress for colleagues that the Bill signals, and, on that basis, we welcome and support it. Go raibh maith agaibh.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, Áine and Aisling. It had occurred to me that you might raise issues with article 89, because it is schools-focused. Given the organisations that you represent and support, you may feel that some of the organisations that face workforce challenges may not fall within the scope of any interventions in a workforce plan. I do not have an immediate solution to that. Unfortunately, it —.

Ms Andrews: We did not expect that you would.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): The Deputy Chair, who is the Bill sponsor, is not with us today. He is unable to be here. That might have been a question for Pat to speak to. I will put it out there that, at this stage, it may be that any amendment to article 89 would be too far-reaching for a Committee amendment. It will, however, be worth highlighting those specific issues to the Bill sponsor so that he can potentially bring back a response at next week's Committee. We can certainly do that, if the Committee agrees.

My initial sense is that article 89 creates those constraints, but, although I understand the issues that you have raised and, indeed, was interested to see whether you would raise them, I am not sure whether they would be viewed as being within the scope of the Bill in order to allow a substantive change to be made to the overarching legal definition of "Irish-medium education" or whether a Committee amendment could reasonably do that. The matter merits further Committee consideration, however. We can deal with that at the end of the session, and, if members agree, we can perhaps ask the Bill sponsor to speak to the issue.

I had other questions to ask, but you have set out the challenges clearly. Everybody involved in Irish-medium education who has presented evidence on the Bill has set out the challenges. Nobody will suggest that there are not particular challenges for the Irish-medium sector, as it is demonstrably the case. I therefore do not feel the need to get into that. You have set out those challenges clearly for your settings.

I will pick up on the amendment to the Bill that you suggested, Áine, because it is worth considering in a bit more detail. Will you go over the amendment that you propose again? It is on training needs.

Ms Andrews: It is on training. Training has been mentioned, but in a generalised way. It has just been indicated. I have made the point that training for the Irish-medium sector is frequently viewed in the context of bringing up practitioners' language skills or of generic training that is already available being translated and presented through the medium of Irish. That is one issue that we have with training.

As well as that, for a number of years, training has been dominated by the General Teaching Council competences. I was involved in the General Teaching Council at the time that the competences were being put together. Interestingly, there were 27 generic competences detailed that cover any language context at all. The council put Irish-medium or immersion education and bilingual education together — they are not necessarily the same thing — and issued a 27-word statement. A 27-word statement will not address the complexity involved and the substantial range of skills and knowledge required for someone to teach effectively in an Irish-medium context. That is the dominating model, however. The council expects those competences to be taken into account when training is offered.

Alongside that, we have the mandatory framework for early years. Again, that mandatory framework is generic. There has been a tiny, recently added additional or optional module, but there is absolutely no way that that can cover the range of skills or knowledge that anybody working in an Irish-medium early years context needs. Training at present is about improving people's language skills and giving existing, generic training through Irish, but, because those generic principles and competences dominate, I am a bit concerned that there is a tendency to think that that is what training for Irish-medium education is. It most definitely is not.

The fact is that the Department of Education gave our organisation money to develop competences, because of our advocacy over many years. As far back as 1998, I remember speaking to Marion Matchett about the problem with early years being that all the competences were generic. It has been a long advocacy. The Department of Education therefore gave us money to develop competences, which we have. They cut across the early years Foundation Stage, Key Stage 1 and Key Stage 2, and they apply, to some degree, to Key Stage 3. It would be a shame — in fact, it would be more than a shame: it would be outrageous — if, now that those competences are being developed, that major initiative was put to the one side or there was a danger that it would be put to one side because of templates of delivery or models of thinking about Irish-medium training dominating.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Yes. That is very clearly put. There is the possibility that, with the new iteration of the General Teaching Council, whatever that may look like, those competences may well be redrawn again. Having an Irish-medium influence in that process is really important, but that is probably a separate consideration.

Ms Andrews: The framework is being developed at the minute.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It is actively under development.

Ms Andrews: We have been able to input significantly into it.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is really welcome, because it is so important, as yours is not just a school sector but a particular pedagogy, and the evidence that we have heard repeatedly on the Bill and other issues is that it pays to emphasise that.

For clarity, are you seeking to amend new article 89ZA?

Ms Andrews: Our amendment is to paragraph (5)(c), yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It states "recruitment, retention" and then makes a specific reference —.

Ms Andrews: It needs to be inserted where training is mentioned. I am not sure exactly of the appropriate place to insert it.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It mentions "development", I think.

Ms Andrews: It has "development", but "development" covers a multitude.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): What would be your form of words, just to be sure that we have that?

Ms Andrews: I had, "to insert, 'specific to the needs of an immersion pedagogy'", or maybe 'language immersion pedagogy'. That might be worth putting in. Now that you bring it up, we saw something else, which is that the Department is required to consult a number of organisations and personnel. Again, we note that Altram is not included in the agencies or personnel that should be consulted. That really needs to be addressed.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That is also really helpful. We can pick up those discussions with Committee members. We have had a discussion about whether the consultee list needed to be expanded, and that was under consideration. Those are all really helpful issues for the Committee to take up, as I said, on a wider amendment to article 89. We may be getting out of the scope of the Bill, but we will certainly have those conversations. I really appreciate the evidence.

Mrs Mason: Dia daoibh, a chairde. Tá fáilte romhaibh. Go raibh maith agaibh

for being here today. I know the dedication that every one of you has to the sector and how much of your time you give up, so we really appreciate your presence today, especially you guys who have been in various settings all day and have now come here.

Aisling, you outlined the challenges, which I was going to ask about. In your opening remarks, you outlined the challenges really well, specifically for Irish-medium in the early years sector. The fact that three Sure Start programmes had closed was really stark.

We have heard that the Bill is not needed, because the Minister will introduce his own strategy. We heard that directly from officials. I have a number of issues with that. The Minister's party's track record on the Irish language in general is probably the glaringly obvious one for me, and the fact that a strategy is not backed up in legislation is the other. Also, we do not know when that might happen. It will not even be in this mandate. It will be 2027 before we even have sight of that. However, my view is that, even if that strategy were to be delivered, the Bill has been designed to complement, not overtake, it. Are you of the same view?

Ms Walls: Yes. We completely agree. We see the Bill as a complementary measure that will also give legislative force to the strategy, particularly around a priority such as workforce. It is encouraging to see that workforce features as a pillar in the strategy as well. Altram has been involved with the strategy team from commencement, and we are hopeful that it will come to pass. We have committed so much of our time, as have all the other people in the sector, such as the practitioners and other agencies that are contributing to the formulation of the strategy. However, we also need to acknowledge that the strategy team are learning a hell of a lot from where we are coming from. The Irish-medium sector is a new area to them, and they are taking the challenges on board. There is a level of commitment and motivation there, so we are hopeful that all that hard work will not be lost. However, we see the Bill as a legislative force that can bolster the strategy.

Mrs Mason: That is good. That is positive to hear. It means that, going by any evidence that we have heard, we have consensus across the sector. The Minister seems to stand in isolation in his view on that.

Áine, you mentioned a number of issues to raise. I cannot speak for Pat, obviously; he is not here. I know, however, that he wants the Bill to address early years in Irish-medium specifically, so I am sure that he would be more than happy to engage on any amendments that are required. We know that there are issues across the Irish-medium sector, but including all of those would make the Bill wide in scope, and it has been made clear that any private Member's Bill that was being introduced had to be narrow in scope. We felt that workforce was the key issue that needed to be addressed urgently, but I take on board that there are other issues. On that subject, are there any other Irish-medium education issues, beyond workforce, that need to be addressed in legislation, specifically in early years?

Ms Walls: Not specifically in legislation; more in and around the early intervention supports for our most vulnerable children and the allied health professionals (AHPs). There are a lot of gaps in the service. As far as we can see and through our engagement with allied health professionals, there is now a will to progress and put in place measures to support children and families. Any work that we do around that is very much project-based and small grant-funded. We are concerned that no long-term, sustainable funding is coming through to support the development of allied health professionals to support the Irish-medium early years sector and the children in it.

Mrs Mason: Is that typically to do with children with additional and complex needs and the like?

Ms Walls: Yes.

Mrs Mason: OK. That is great. Thanks very much for your evidence.

Mr Baker: Thank you for everything. Sorry I was a bit late coming in: I had a couple of missed calls and thought that something was really wrong, but it was my wee lad, who has finished first year of college with two awards, and he was really pleased to share that. That is down to the work that you do for them, and, because it is so important, I wanted to say that. It is a community.

Theresa, you know this from the services that you run, just as I know it from the area that I represent. Many parents who come to me, particularly those of children with additional needs who may need support with speech and language, end up being advised to push their children towards English-medium education. I do not want to say that that is discriminatory, but it is almost accidental discrimination, in that, because the support and workforce are not there, it takes a child away from their first language. I will give you an opportunity to talk about that. You know more than I do about it. It is not talked about enough, and people do not realise how big an issue it is.

Ms Theresa Brady (Altram): It is not just speech and language. There are a lot of issues that we try to help our children with in early years. Schools have support and have their units, but nothing has been put into early years. Our practitioners depend on Altram to support them through a lot of their work. At the moment, we have a centre through which about 1,200 people come weekly, and they do so for a range of reasons. We are the only place where families can get Irish language help on a range of things. There is an excellent Sure Start in the area — we are part of that, and I chair it — but there are few Irish language services in Sure Start. If someone's first point of contact for their family is an Irish language playgroup or drop-in session, they have to be directed to the English sector for support or help. Nothing is available in Irish, and no support is coming to any of us. Sinéad will be able to speak to that too, as she is in a similar position to us.

Yes, we have the naíscoileanna

, playgroups and all those things, but we also have day care and children and parents who come to a drop-in session or come in for a chat. We have nowhere to take them. Nothing is done through Irish; everything has to be done through English. That does a disservice to our families, who have chosen Irish. They want to live through Irish. The parents are learning Irish and bringing their children up through Irish, but, unfortunately, there are limited services with which they can engage in Irish. School nurses; people who come out to see them, such as health visitors; the programme for two-year-olds through Sure Start; and speech and language therapy are all English services. Therefore, our Irish-speaking staff have to learn how to do what a speech and language therapist normally does in an English-speaking setting, and they have to do that on behalf of the speech and language therapists, because our children speak Irish, not English, in that setting.

Mr Baker: It is important that that is heard today.

Cathy touched on this, and, although Pat is not here, as someone who has also introduced a private Member's Bill, I can say that, at the beginning of the process, the Member has to be narrow in focus. If Pat had been given wider scope, there would be so much more in the Bill. What you have said today and the way that you have expressed it flags how important this is. This is not about pitting one sector over another; far from it. It is about creating a level playing field in order to keep children in immersion.

Ms Brady: Look at it this way: if a child from an English-speaking family goes to a playgroup and on to a nursery to continue their primary education, they are coming in with the language that they have always spoken. Children who come to the Irish centre and whose parents are learning Irish — that is what they have chosen — must have that support before they get into nursery. Otherwise, you are setting them up for failure. It is so important that our day care, playgroups and náiscoileanna

have the proper staffing, training and support from Altram so that all of the children who are going into an Irish rang a haon

are at the same level and on the same playing field as all English-speaking children who are going into primary 1. That is not and has never been there, and that needs to be addressed.

Mr Baker: I agree, 100%. Thank you.

Ms Walls: May I come in on the speech and language training and the allied health professionals? Through our work, we had identified the massive gaps there. Post COVID, there seemed to be a massive increase in the number of children with speech, language and communication needs. The Irish-medium sector is not unique in that. We saw opportunities there to reach out to SLT providers and different programme delivery agents, such as Help Kids Talk, in order to identify programmes that we might be able deliver to our practitioners and, in turn, offer that to our parents. We initiated training and conversations with Help Kids Talk, and that has progressed.

We were talking about translation. We are looking at translation and offering bilingual key messages to parents through the materials that Help Kids Talk offers, and we are progressing some of its programmes to see whether we can tailor those for children in Irish-medium early years education. We are hopeful that we can progress that work. Again, we are not funded to do that; it is very much based on small grants. We feel that, in and around the SLT work, there has been a shift in mindset. Practitioners can see the benefits that the immersion model brings to the equation. We talk about how we use our visuals, gestures and voice intonation. I am finding it difficult to keep my hands down, because we talk with our hands a lot. Our colleagues in the SLT world recognise the benefits of immersion and how, as a vehicle for communicating language and language acquisition, it is the best model available.

Danny talked about the advice for children being not to come into Irish-medium education. That is shifting a bit. There is a keenness in the SLT world to ensure that those children can access Irish-medium early years education. The SLT practitioners are reaching out to us to look at ways of building in those supports. We recently launched some of our communication resources. We, in consultation with Sure Start SLTs, produced an outdoor communication board. That has been so successful that I am now part of a steering group to develop those resources for English-medium schools. We are leading in the language acquisition field. Where we see those gaps in communication, we are trying to develop those resources and supports. The relationships that we are building with allied health professionals are making a difference.

Ms Sinéad McConnell (Altram): That demonstrates Altram's commitment and the way that the sector works. That has been built on the back of a lot of voluntary work. I do not want to be negative, but the difficulty is that none of that is guaranteed; it is all dependent on small pockets of funding. There is still an unequal spread of access for parents.

When we talk about the pressures that the sector is under, the reality of that situation is a service that is unavailable to parents, rather than being just not available through me. OK, I might not be able to meet your need, but there may not be someone else who can do that in the Irish language context in your area.

Ms Walls: We had a —.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): We are short on time, so I ask that you finish that answer off, Aisling.

Ms Walls: Sinéad referred to the fact that a parent who is raising her child through Irish reached out to us. She wanted to know whether we were aware of any SLTs with Irish in her trust area. We contacted one of our regional contacts, and they said that there were not any in that trust area but there were in Belfast. We had the idea that that was a potential opportunity to reach out on a regional basis, identify who the Irish-speaking SLTs were and establish some kind of regional support service. That sounds like a very easy fix, but it would be a great start. We do not think that it would pull resources from other areas. It would add to the resource and ensure that parents and children could access those supports, regardless of the boundaries of their trust.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you. I have to bring in the next member now.

Ms Hunter: Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much to the panel. It was really interesting to hear about Sure Start and the lack of Irish being used in those spaces. At the heart of the Bill is equality, and, if Irish is a child's first language and they are to develop it in those early years, those points are important to note. I will submit a number of questions on that.

Your briefing says:

When we think about the future leaders in the Irish-medium sector — trainers, mentors etc — that decline points to challenges not only in recruitment but in retention of talent in the sector. How significant is that threat to the long-term sustainability of the Irish-medium sector?

Ms Walls: It is a massive threat, Cara. You referenced the leadership pool: that is diminishing. If our middle-level practitioners are leaving, it leaves us with no one to follow on. Sinéad and Theresa might give a bit of insight into the realities of that.

Ms McConnell: In the long term, it is a huge threat, but there is also an immediate threat posed by the same issue. The bottom line is that we are significantly under-serving the demand for our services. We are prevented from any significant expansion to meet the demand of parents who seek to have Irish-medium early years services. There is an ongoing and long-term threat because of workforce issues.

Ms Walls: There are certain areas, Cara, where there are pockets of higher demand. We see massive growth in areas such as Armagh and south Derry, where the parental demand for Irish-medium services is growing. People are reacting and responding to that by providing more parent-and-toddler groups and storytelling- and library-based activities through Irish. We see those pockets and that growth, so there is a desire. If we do not have the workforce to meet that, we are constraining growth.

When we look at the early learning and childcare strategy, we see so many initiatives coming down the pipeline that we just do not have the workforce to deliver. We want to be in a position where, if there is an expansion of Sure Start, we can jump in on that. We are already identifying areas where Sure Start through the medium of Irish would take off. We lost three of those programmes because of recruitment and retention issues. Having a workforce and a pipeline is crucial. On retention, it is important to look at the quality that an immersion practitioner brings to the equation. It is an expertise. Losing that expertise from the sector creates a massive deficit, and it is very damaging.

Ms Andrews: It may be worth saying that we also have problems with people coming through to take up positions, because they have to have the combination of Irish and significant qualifications, so the pool from which we can draw in the Irish-medium sector is much smaller than that which can be drawn from in the English-medium sector. A general issue for early years, although it will not have to be discussed very much in relation to the Bill, is that the salary rewards are pathetic. When you look at the qualifications that people must have and at people moving up through the levels, you see that they are not getting the reward. On one level, why would people not leave? Sometimes, they can get jobs in an Irish-medium school as a classroom assistant, and, sometimes, people use it as a route to becoming a teacher. There are a couple of things going on, but a highly significant part is the issue of salaries. I know that that is a problem for voluntary early years in general.

Ms Walls: I do not wish to take away from our statutory colleagues in the Irish-medium sector, but there is a bit of an exodus. We put a school-leaver through their training; they receive their qualifications; and they progress to a certain point. A school will then need Irish-medium classroom assistants, so the voluntary sector loses staff to the statutory sector. As Áine said, the pool is so small. If, when they move to a statutory setting, they are one-to-one with a child, there is a massive disparity in salary. They can go from being a deputy leader in a naíscoil to a one-to-one cúntóir ranga

in a school and get more in their pay packet.

Ms Hunter: Thank you so much. You have articulated the demand; the lack of available workforce; the attraction elsewhere, other than the early years setting; and the challenges that exist. It was fascinating stuff. I will ask questions on those issues because it is important that we home in on where investment, the retention of staff and the focus need to be in the developmental years.

Ladies, thank you. Honestly, I have gained so much knowledge from the briefing. I appreciate it. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Mrs Middleton: Thank you to all of the panel members for being here; I appreciate your contributions and the passion that you have brought to the table. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will say that, contrary to what is often said, my party is not hostile to the Irish language. I said this last week and will say it again: as long as the child is getting a quality education in the language that they or their family choose, that is OK. It makes no odds to me.

Have you a rough idea of how many of your teaching and support staff are trained formally or in their own time in the use of Lámh for children who have additional needs or speech and language delay? I know of the issues with Irish-medium SLTs.

Ms Walls: Thanks for your question, Julie. That would apply more to the school setting. While some children entering the naíscoil will be in the initial stages of assessment, few will come through with a statement at that juncture. I do not have that data.

I have been working in consultation with a researcher in Stranmillis. We hope to capture more data around workforce and look at the full breadth from nought to Foundation Stage. We will look at the profile, the qualification profiles and where the gaps exist in the workforce, aside from the immersion pedagogy qualifications.

Mrs Middleton: Thank you. I do not use Lámh — using signs, I can just about spell the word. I use Makaton. There is a lot of success for children. My daughter, who is two, is non-verbal. I already use Makaton with her, and I see the value in it, so I was curious about that. Thank you very much.

Ms Walls: I apologise, Julie. I was not sure of the word that you said. Sorry.

Mrs Middleton: I tried my best to pronounce it [Laughter.]

Ms Walls: It was the "Lámh" thing.

We have trained in Makaton. We promote Makaton as a useful means of communication for non-verbal and pre-verbal children. We integrate that into a lot of the supports. If children come into our naíscoileanna, we will look at finding the best support. Our team are so highly skilled, and we are so lucky to have them. They have the skills to observe children when they come in, and they can identify whether we need to signpost to different services for support. Makaton is one of the supports that we use.

Ms McConnell: A number of staff in our settings are trained to use Lámh with the children as well, particularly in the programme for two-year-olds and the Sure Start programmes.

Mrs Middleton: Thank you so much, ladies.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That brings us to the end of the session. There are no other indications. There are a few things to pick up on around amendments, and, as I said, other members may pick up on the wider challenges in Irish-medium early years provision separately. You will probably find that you have some contact from other members on the back of the session. We really appreciate your time and engagement with the Bill. Thank you very much.

Ms Andrews: You are very welcome. Go raibh maith agaibh.