Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Tá fáilte romhaibh,

, Minister and your team. It is good to see you this morning for the quarterly update. There are no papers for the session, members; this is an oral briefing.

I welcome the Minister, along with Paul Price and Iain Greenway, to the meeting. Paul is deputy secretary of the housing and sustainability group, and Iain Greenway is deputy secretary of the engaged communities group. In order to ensure that all members get an opportunity to ask the Minister questions, I propose allocating roughly six or seven minutes per member, depending on whether the Minister wishes to make introductory remarks. I will allocate that time now or in whatever time allows after that. I am keen that members take into account the fact that that allocated time will include the Minister's or his officials' responses. If necessary — when a response is running over time, for example — we may seek something in writing and move on to the next member, in the interests of fairness.

Minister, welcome to the meeting. Please go ahead and make any remarks that you wish.

Mr Lyons (The Minister for Communities): Thank you very much, Chair, and I am pleased to be here, as part of my regular briefings to the Committee, to set out my priorities for the rest of the mandate.

As you are aware, we are operating in a constrained and challenging financial environment that will require mature, sensible decision-making. However, as I have set out clearly over my time as Minister, I want to direct resources to where they will make the most positive impact on the lives of people in Northern Ireland. We have to ensure that every pound that we spend delivers real and lasting outcomes for people and communities across Northern Ireland. That is why, over the past two years, I have had to drive efficiencies. We had to embrace innovative solutions, and we have modernised our service delivery. That has given us a strong foundation from which to work.

We have already delivered many landmark achievements: the first Executive housing supply strategy; the first warm healthy homes scheme; the historic Sign Language Bill; progression of the Northern Ireland Football Fund; the anti-poverty strategy; the disability strategy; and major regeneration projects, such as that for Bangor Marina. I have also brought forward new community-level initiatives, such as the Olympic legacy fund and the community infrastructure fund. I will continue to push forward on housing to do my part to achieve the Executive's target of delivering 100,000 new homes by 2039. You will have seen earlier this week the launch of 300 homes with discounted rent as part of the first roll-out of the affordable rent programme, which uses an innovative funding model that protects our social housing funding. I will continue to progress the revitalisation of the Housing Executive, enabling it to access borrowing so that we can deliver more homes and maintain homes in a sustainable way for the future. Alongside that, I will continue to take action to address antisocial behaviour in housing.

My aim is to open up opportunities, remove barriers and ensure that deaf and disabled people can play a full and active role in society. A key part of that will be supporting more people into work and helping them to access, retain and progress in employment. It is clear that we need to do things differently to ensure that all those who can work are supported to do so. I have secured Executive transformation funding for the Pathways to Work programme, which will include the establishment of a commission that will be headed up by Alan Milburn to help us drive positive change. I will say more on that at the end of the month.

Protecting public funds is paramount. It is vital that we invest further to tackle benefit fraud and error, ensuring that the system is fair, robust and trusted and that support is directed towards those who need it most. I will continue to work with the Department of Finance and Treasury on a new approach to funding in Northern Ireland. I am also pressing on with measures to address fuel poverty, and I will launch the home heating oil payment scheme at the end of the summer and the warm healthy homes fund before the end of the financial year. I remain committed to investing in our communities. That includes delivering the community infrastructure fund and supporting local organisations that make a difference every day on the ground.

I will also progress a number of significant projects over the coming year, including "Reawakening" at the Ulster Folk Museum, and the national football centre at Galgorm. My focus is on not just delivery but ensuring that those projects create lasting social and economic impact. I will continue to support veterans with expanded outreach through roadshows and strengthened coordination through a dedicated liaison approach to improve access to services. Alongside that programme for delivery, I am focused on the opportunities that are ahead. The USA-NI250 programme has allowed us to strengthen our international connections, while our wider investments in communities, culture and sport will showcase Northern Ireland's condition.

I intend to bring forward four Bills in the limited time that remains in the mandate. Just this week, I introduced the Charities (Amendment) Bill. Delivering that legislative programme is critical to ensuring that we have a modern, fit-for-purpose framework across housing, charity regulation and the integrity of the welfare system. Their timely scrutiny and progression through the Assembly will be essential, and I will rely on the Committee's support with that.

In summary, my priorities for the year ahead are clear: increasing housing supply; tackling poverty and inequality; supporting people into work; strengthening communities; protecting public funds; and delivering projects that create lasting value.

It is appropriate, Mr Chairman, that I take the opportunity to thank staff in my Department and in our arm's-length bodies (ALBs), as well as our partners in the voluntary and community sector, who do so much as we seek to achieve those goals. After the disgraceful scenes that we witnessed last week, I pay particular tribute to my officials in the Department and the Housing Executive, who did so much to make sure that those who were affected by the disgraceful scenes that we saw on our screens and in our newspapers were dealt with in the quickest way possible.

I thank the members of the Committee who supported that work, and I ask for your continued effort as we push towards the end of the mandate. Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thank you, Minister. That was certainly comprehensive. I am sure that we will not have time to go into the detail of half those things, but that is a difficulty that we face all the time. Thank you for those remarks.

I will focus largely on housing, Minister. I flag the fact that I visited Inspire Wellbeing's Enterprise Court in Bangor yesterday. The progression that we have seen there is extremely impressive. I was deeply struck by the importance of housing in that space through design and availability and the ability for people to move from intensive support and make a progression to independence or to the greatest independence that they may have. Inspire tells me that there is not the availability. Once people get to the stage where they have moved through what is available, the next step is very often missing. Inspire is flagging the fact that we do not have a supported housing strategy. Are you minded to look specifically at that issue?

I am very conscious that today we will see the publication of the Muckamore report, which is connected to all this because some people were in Muckamore due to a lack of appropriate housing. What are your thoughts on that?

Mr Lyons: First, you are absolutely right to talk about the importance of housing as a whole, particularly in the context that you did, because it is absolutely foundational. That has been a focus of ours in the Department, and a great example of that is the New Foundations project. You see the problem that was coming down the tracks at us with young people who were leaving care, and we put that support into place. We are also putting more money from financial transactions capital (FTC) into areas such as the loan to acquire move-on accommodation programme to help people as they progress. We also have the Supporting People project in place, which is probably the most important of all those measures and which helps incredible numbers of people.

You asked specifically about a strategy. We have the wider housing supply strategy, which focuses on those issues in particular. I have given a very firm commitment today, and I want to make sure that we have that support in place not just because it is good for the individuals, which is the most important thing, but because it is better for the public purse. This is a message that I try to get out time and time again. When you spend money in the more appropriate way earlier on, it saves on the human cost but it also serves the public purse. I am very well aware that the Committee's role is to advise and assist, and I am more than happy if the Committee wants to bring forward some proposals. We will look at those alongside the housing supply strategy. The action plan has now gone to the Executive, with those issues directly dealt with there as well. Paul, is there anything that you want to say?

Mr Paul Price (Department for Communities): There is a strategic framework for supported housing. As the Minister said, that is in the supply strategy and the action plan. We are happy to brief the Committee on that and, of course, on the related and important strategic context for the Supporting People programme, on which there was public consultation earlier this year. I think that it is there, but I am happy to share more about it with you.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Also yesterday, I attended a knowledge exchange seminar here in the Building, and one of the issues was design. I am only making a comment to say that the potential in how we design spaces is amazing for supporting people, such as when communities are able to see that somebody is OK and that they have light in houses. There are so many things there. I know that you are aware of that, but it is an important issue.

Mr Lyons: The housing supply strategy and what will come forward in the action plan are also about place. They are not just about the number of homes but about the location of homes, the support that is there and the physical environment around them, which can do wonders for people.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I mentioned previously a social housing development that I visited in Dungannon last week. It is not just built to Passivhaus standards but is carbon-positive. There are amazing savings for residents and to the carbon footprint. I am told that, if it is looked at properly, it is maybe not even any more expensive. We have to very quickly get ahead of the curve so that the money that we spend now produces the right outcome and saves down the line.

Mr Lyons: I do not know whether you have had the opportunity to go to Sunningdale Gardens in north Belfast, which was done to Passivhaus standards and is incredible. Now, it was a lot more expensive, but such housing is getting cheaper to build. I think that the total energy bills were in the single figures of pounds per week. It was incredibly cheap. That is what we want to see more of, and, again, you will see that coming through in the warm healthy homes strategy and trying to reduce people's bills.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Thanks for that. I will now move to more challenging issues. Also yesterday, I met a group of organisations that operate in the homelessness sector, and they are flagging up huge concerns about some of the things that they have seen that have not been progressed. We have not had a statutory duty to prevent homelessness, although I know that a review has been taking place. We are the only region currently to maintain the 28-day window of support. I am working on a private Member's Bill on that. We are the only region not to introduce Awaab's law. Other regions have abolished the right to buy, and renters here have significantly less protection than those in other regions.

Given the fact that you have been in post for two years now and that we have a short time left in the mandate, what will you do in the next period to ensure that we can provide greater support, particularly in preventing homelessness?

Mr Lyons: The Committee has acknowledged the past work that the Department has done. For the first time ever, we have ring-fenced our funding. That is incredibly important, because, as I said, you can spend lots of money later or you can spend less money earlier. That is where my focus has been. We got that ring-fenced funding. I bid for that money. You can keep me right, Paul, but we bid for an additional £15 million —.

Mr Price: It was £15·5 million.

Mr Lyons: That is £15·5 million up from the £48 million baseline. I did not get that in the draft Budget, but I will continue to make the case for it, because that is what can make the difference. Your proposals have come forward. We are looking at all of those. We have shared the advice on them that has come from officials and some experts. First and foremost, I want to get the money. I have said repeatedly that I consider there to be two main issues, especially when we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable. The first relates to having the supply in place. That is why I have done everything that I can to make sure that we increase the number of homes that we have. Look at the housing association grant. We put that in place and saw a 17% increase, albeit that not all of that was attributable to the grant. However, despite the reduced grant per unit being put in place, we saw a 17% increase on the previous year. That was for the last few months of last year.

We are also looking at the design guide. That work will be done very soon. It takes out the unnecessary extras about which housing associations are saying, "We don't need them. They're making it more expensive for us to build houses".

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): You have set those out. There is probably a broad awareness of those in the Committee, but is there anything additional that we are not aware of?

Mr Lyons: Most of all, we must apply sensitively what we need a greater focus on for those who are most at risk. We must make sure that we treat the homelessness issue like a health issue, because we can see that. I have been on the streets and seen for myself those who are most affected by rough sleeping. We went out together one night, and the first two such people whom we came across had tenancies. That is why we need a more integrated approach. That is where the housing supply action plan will come into play. Paul, is there anything else that you want to address on the policy issues?

Mr Price: We are not yet sure that the increase from 28 to 56 days is the silver bullet or quick fix that it may look like. We have recommendations in that territory from this Committee and its report; we have the NIO report; we have the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report; and we have a view from our strategic housing authority — the Housing Executive — which says that, in effect, it may be a good thing, but it might not be and might need to be surrounded by a wider package of legislation.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): That is good. I assure you that nobody thinks that it is a quick fix. It is a step in the right direction.

Mr Price: The view from our strategic housing authority is that you need to think about it in the context of a comprehensive consideration of homelessness policy and legislation. We are trying to think about how we could do that in a way that means that we could front-load the question about an enhanced strategic prevention duty. We do not disagree with you; it is just about saying, "How do you do it?".

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): No problem. I am going to have to move on in the interest of time.

Mrs Mason: Minister, thanks very much for coming in today. I also thank Paul and Iain for coming. Minister, I was really glad to hear you reference in your opening remarks the disgraceful scenes that we saw last week. What we saw from last Monday night onwards was shocking, disgusting and frightening. Families were forced from their homes because of downright racist thuggery, children were left frightened — we know that children are still missing exams in schools because they are afraid to go to school — and parents, fearing for their lives, are wondering where they are going to flee to. We know that Housing Executive staff, community organisations and local neighbours and residents stepped up, but there was one glaring absence. Where were you?

Mr Lyons: I was doing my job, Deputy Chair. That is an issue that your party has raised on a number of occasions — you are the only ones who have raised it. I do not think that that is a fair characterisation whatsoever. My position on those issues is absolutely clear: I said it in the Chamber, I was part of a joint Executive statement last week and I shared other comments to the same effect last week. There was no justification for it whatsoever. It was wrong, and it should not have happened. It was outrageous that people were treated in that way. I am crystal clear about where I stand on violence and that sort of behaviour, and I stood with Executive colleagues on that.

My job as a Minister is to make sure that my Department has what it needs to do its job. What we saw last week from the Department was an appropriate and right response. As Minister, my job —.

Mrs Mason: Minister, with all due respect, I stated that the Housing Executive and community organisations stepped up. I am asking where your leadership was.

Mr Lyons: That was under my direction and control. That happened because I made sure of it. I am sure that I spoke on the phone to my permanent secretary 10 times last week. I engaged with Paul —.

Mrs Mason: Minister, did you speak to any of the families?

Mr Lyons: I have spoken to people who were affected, albeit not directly with those who left their homes. I have spoken to people in the ethnic minority community who are fearful. I have spoken to members of the Indian and African communities.

Mrs Mason: I am glad to hear that.

Mr Lyons: Yes, and I spoke directly to someone whose business was damaged. I said to the Housing Executive, through my staff, that I am available and that I would like, if possible, to meet affected families directly. However, I need to make sure that my staff are doing appropriate work. I do not want to take them away so that I can do a visit or bring cameras or whatever else. I do not to want to distract from their work.

Mrs Mason: Minister, I do not think that anybody is asking for cameras. I know that those families would appreciate the Minister for Communities speaking to them directly.

Mr Lyons: That is why I said that I was willing to do a visit, including a low-key visit, but I understand that, for families that are in temporary accommodation and maybe moving properties, trying to find —.

Mrs Mason: Can you give us an idea of the number of families that are in temporary accommodation at the minute?

Mr Lyons: There are some figures that we are not able to give you due to sensitivities from Mears. The latest figures that I have, and I do not know if you have an update on them, Paul — was it 115?

Mr Price: Yes.

Mr Lyons: So 115 households presented to the Housing Executive citing civil unrest. There were 76 presentations of homelessness, and 38 of those were placed in temporary accommodation.

Mrs Mason: What is your plan now for those families? This is critical and urgent. Where will those families be placed?

Mr Price: The Housing Executive assessed that they now need temporary accommodation. Temporary accommodation has been provided, so that provision of 37 units of temporary accommodation reflects its assessment of the 115. There were an additional 53, and because of concerns for their safety, the Housing Executive team that conducts homelessness assessments went to the locations where those people were seeking refuge and conducted the homelessness assessments there.

Mrs Mason: OK. Minister, you said that you had direct engagement with ethnic minority communities. What were they saying to you? What were their concerns?

Mr Lyons: You will not be surprised to learn, because we heard in the media from people who were affected, that they were fearful about what was happening and about what comes next. I spoke to someone who was travelling from one part of Northern Ireland to another, and they said that they were scared simply because of the colour of their skin. It is an outrageous situation for us to find ourselves in at any time, never mind in 2026, that someone should feel that way. That is why I reached out. I have gone back to people whom I was in contact with originally. I intend to meet later today with communities that are affected, and I will be meeting more of my constituents later this week.

I want to respond very firmly to that, Deputy Chairperson. There is an appropriate way for me to work in the Department, and I believe that I have done that. I gave strategic direction, and I gave instruction through the permanent secretary. I made sure that I initiated the scheme of emergency financial assistance (SEFA) funding where that was necessary, and I ensured that the humanitarian response subgroup had what it needed. I got regular briefings at the appropriate time from my officials, and I believe that I acted in the appropriate way. However, now is the time for us to look at the lessons learned and at where we can go next.

Mrs Mason: Minister, I am glad to hear of the engagement that you had, and I hope that you get the opportunity to meet those families directly, because I know that they would welcome knowing what is happening. You said that you think that you did everything that you could. I understand that, operationally, your staff and the Housing Executive did step up. I do believe, however, that there was an absence of leadership from you in not condemning that behaviour outright straight away and calling for a stop to the racist thuggery on the streets that was causing people to flee from their homes.

You had a role, there and then, to call that out, condemn it and ask for it to stop.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Through the Chair, please.

Mr Lyons: That is wrong. I will be honest: I think that you are making a political point.

Mrs Mason: Minister, there is nothing political —

Mr Lyons: Sorry —.

Mrs Mason: — about children —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We are going to have to move on.

Mrs Mason: — fleeing from their homes. There —

Mr Lyons: What you are doing —.

Mrs Mason: — is nothing political about that.

Mr Lyons: You are using them —

Mrs Mason: That is disgraceful. There is nothing political about it.

Mr Lyons: — to make a political point. That is what you are doing, Deputy Chairperson. I am disappointed that, on such a serious issue, you have not refrained from the temptation to try to stick the boot in. I have led —.

Mrs Mason: Minister, it clearly makes you uncomfortable.

Mr Lyons: I have led —.

Mrs Mason: If asking you about racist attacks —

Mr Lyons: What makes me uncomfortable?

Mrs Mason: — makes you uncomfortable —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Through the Chair, members and Minister.

Mrs Mason: — perhaps that is why there was no leadership.

Mr Lyons: I am very uncomfortable about racist attacks, but I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with operating in the correct way in my Department and providing —.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): We are going to have to move on.

Mr Lyons: Real leadership is about making sure that the Department is run properly and that you give the instruction that what needs to be done is done. That is what we have done.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I am going to move on now.

Mr McHugh: Tá fáilte romhat, a Aire, agus tá fáilte roimh d'fhoireann fosta.

As I am sure that you are well aware, we met the Irish Language Commissioner and the Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British Tradition this time last week.

The Irish Language Commissioner in particular was very complimentary towards you and your Department and the work that you have done with him to date. He pointed out to the Committee that research on the Continent shows that, in defending and promoting minority languages, it is essential that signage in those languages is visible. He made the point that, in many cases, it led to a breakdown of prejudices in relationships. In other words, it was a good thing. He went on to say that it was bizarre for you to have involved yourself in the Belfast Grand Central station case. How do you feel about his saying that that was bizarre?

Mr Lyons: Do you believe that it is important that the law is upheld?

Mr McHugh: Minister, I asked you a question.

Mr Lyons: You are here to advise and assist the Department. I want to know whether you think that it is right that the law is upheld. The fact that you cannot answer that simple question speaks volumes.

The law is very clear. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that issues around the Irish language and signage are controversial. I met the Infrastructure Minister about that in this room. It became clear that it is a controversial issue. Whether you think that it should be is a different matter. I think that everyone agrees that it is controversial, and, as such, something that needs to go to the Executive.

I operate under and within the law in the Department for Communities. The Department for Infrastructure, under the leadership of Liz Kimmins, needs to do the same. That is an important part of our constitutional agreement here. I do not think that we can let that slip or go to the side, depending on what side of an argument you take. If something is of a controversial or significant nature, it goes to the Executive. I do not think that that is bizarre.

Mr McHugh: I made the point that research and so on shows that, where a language is seen as controversial by any community, its visibility is a very important factor in the development of better relationships in communities. I hope that you will take on board that research, Minister.

Over and above that, just as the commissioner said that he found that bizarre, some people find it bizarre that your Department has already spent £62,000 on a case involving Belfast City Council. If you continue to be involved in that case, that bill will continue to rise. The Irish-language community sees that case as being an effort to suppress and discourage the development and promotion of the language. How do you feel about that, Minister?

Mr Lyons: It is not just about the Irish language; it is about the wider issue of the council's standing orders. My Department gave a very clear instruction in 2014 about how the minority protections were to operate. I do not believe that the city council's standing orders should have been changed in that way. It is still subject to ongoing legal action. However, it is not just about language; it is about other issues more widely to do with how minority protections are interpreted.

I have watched with wonder how the attitude of some parties to things in that sphere has changed over recent years. I think that it is better that you seek to find consensus on those issues. If you cannot find consensus on an issue, minority protections are in place for a reason. I do not think that the law, as it stands, was being adhered to. That is why the matter is still with the courts, and I look forward to it being dealt with.

Mr McHugh: The initial judgement, if anything, fully condemned the contribution of you and your Department to that process. What can we expect from you with regard to any efforts that you or your Department will make to be seen to promote the Irish language? You can spend more than £62,000 on an initiative that is there to limit its development, yet we cannot find £90,000 for the support and development of the place-names scheme at Queen's.

Mr Lyons: You asked what you can expect from me. First, you can expect that I will uphold the law and use the levers available to me in my Department to make sure that the law is upheld in those circumstances.

The idea that we have not funded or supported Irish language initiatives is not correct. You can look at what the Department has provided to Foras na Gaeilge over the last number of years. That is exactly the role that it is there to play as part of the North/South arrangements. Funding comes directly from the Northern Ireland Executive via the Department for that purpose. You need to look at it in its proper context and realise that funding and support is available.

As I have said before, I believe that there has been a weaponisation of the language and an attempt to use it in ways that I believe are inappropriate, and I do not think that it has done any favours for the language. I have been to Irish language events. I attended an event here.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Briefly, please, Minister.

Mr Lyons: Sorry?

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Briefly, please. We are running out of time.

Mr Lyons: I fully support —

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Maolíosa, we do not have time to come back to you.

Mr Lyons: — the right of people to learn and understand it, but I will make sure that we uphold the law at the same time and ensure minority protections.

Mr Bradley: Before I ask any questions, I would like to say that rioting has no place in a modern society. Should it be sectarian or racist, rioting was wrong in the past, it is wrong in the present and it will be wrong in the future. I say that without wanting to be labelled as far left or far right. As a society, we are too quick to brand people with a label of convenience to attack or demonise another section of the community or another section of a community in a city. Thankfully, we did not have such behaviour in my constituency, and I hope that remains the case.

To go back to housing, how dependent is your future programme on receiving a budget from the Executive and Finance to allow you to build more houses? What discussions have you had with the Department for Infrastructure on areas of housing need that lack the infrastructure to allow you to build more houses? The lack of infrastructure is holding back the building of private housing, social housing and housing associations homes, and that has been discussed in the Assembly time and time again.

Mr Lyons: Funding is a huge issue. As I have set out, I am doing everything that I can in the Department to increase the supply of homes. We brought forward the action plan. We are looking at intermediate rent and how that can be expanded. I do not want to annoy the Chair too much by going back over all the things that we have just mentioned. We have been really proactive over the past two years in getting as much out of the money as we can and looking at all the different sources of funding. We have pushed that on. That is one of the reasons why you saw that increase last year.

With regard to your first question, there is only so much that I can do. Housing needs to be a priority for the Executive. We do not have enough money, and I know that things are tight, but my biggest frustration right now is that the Executive made a commitment. The Executive said, "Here is our target". We did not set an awful lot of targets in the Programme for Government, but the number of houses to be built was one. If you are going to make a promise, you need to ensure that it is kept. We need the money. We have done a lot to try to get as much as we can out of the money that we have, but we need more. We could have met our targets last year if we had got the money that we eventually got a little bit earlier. I still believe that we can meet the targets that we set — it will be incredibly difficult — but we will need the funding. We do not have the funding in place. I am genuinely appreciative that the Committee came together and wrote to the Executive to say, "This is something that needs to be prioritised". I am not getting the same support from the rest of the Executive at the moment. I am not asking for something new; I am saying, "Let's fulfil the promise that we made".

Mr Bradley: I have one more question, Chair. Minister, you talked about homelessness —.

Mr Lyons: Paul wants to come in very briefly.

Mr Bradley: Sorry. Go ahead.

Mr Price: I just want to add two things. First, the Budget that has been proposed, but not yet agreed, does, for the first time, earmark an amount for social housing development. The earmarking of that money is new. That reflects the success of the effort, with which the Committee was engaged, to get the Executive to prioritise that area. The earmarking is new, but the amount is not quite enough.

Secondly, the proposed Budget is the reason for the decision that the Minister took, in October 2025, to set a challenging grant rate paid to housing associations and to put in place the review to look at grant support. Whilst we are doing everything that we can to get as much money as possible, we realise that that is not enough and that we also need to do everything that we can to make that money go as far as possible.

Mr Bradley: There are areas and villages right across Northern Ireland in which we cannot build one more house due to a lack of infrastructure. It is OK to have a plan to build x number of houses, but if you cannot deliver them right across Northern Ireland, it congregates people in smaller areas where there is probably already a large population.

The other issue that I wanted to talk about was homelessness. The current situation has exacerbated the problem of homelessness. Like, I am sure, every other MLA in this place, I have a list of people who require accommodation from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. Those people are sofa-surfing and living in cramped conditions with parents, aunts, uncles or other relatives, and they cannot see light at the end of the tunnel. Some people who have come into my office have been on the waiting list for over five years. There is a massive problem throughout Northern Ireland, which has been exacerbated by the events of recent weeks. Unless we get the infrastructure right, we will be able to build homes only where it is available and not where those homes are needed.

Mr Lyons: Absolutely: that is part of the problem. Some of those issues are being addressed through the housing supply strategy and action plans. However, we have a waste water crisis in Northern Ireland, and we need to take serious action to tackle it.

Ms Mulholland: Good morning, Minister. I want to kick off with safeguarding in sport. In your correspondence with me, which was really helpful, you acknowledged that, where a sports organisation is not in receipt of funding from Sport NI, there is limited scope for the Department to act on safeguarding concerns. That appears to leave a loophole for clubs and organisations that work with children and are not funded by Sport NI, affiliated to a governing body or captured by council grant or facility use conditions.

Do you accept that such a gap exists? I suppose that my plea is that you work with the Department of Health, or do something that is within your remit on safeguarding in sport, to close that loophole and put something overarching in place for safeguarding in all sports organisations.

Mr Lyons: I am happy to look at that. Oftentimes, you will hear Ministers say, "That is not technically my area of responsibility or a role for my Department". However, it is a serious issue. There is a need to ensure that those issues are taken seriously. There are few issues more important and critical. Sian, if you would like to have a meeting, we would be more than happy for you to meet and engage with officials on that. We will do some work to look at gaps, Iain, and ensure that, if there is a role for us to play, we can do it, or, if it is for somebody else, we can work with other Ministers to ensure that it is taken on board.

Ms Mulholland: Brilliant. I am keen to see that happen. It is an issue that is increasingly coming to the fore in my constituency and others. I am keen to work with you to close that gap.

Previously, the Department was involved in integration strategies for communities. I suppose that that comes under the old term of "community relations". What role is there for DFC in supporting the integration of communities at an early stage in areas that are affected by poverty, housing pressures, newcomer needs, racism and sectarianism in particular?

I know that there is an issue with the small pockets of deprivation (SPOD) funding and that there is uncertainty about that. That funding, if the position on it was made clear, could direct integration in local areas. What role does DFC have or continue to have in that sphere?

Mr Lyons: First, we have a broad set of responsibilities. Every day and in many ways, we help to integrate and bring communities together. I will bring in Paul in a second to talk about Housing for All and the next steps. I know that there have been issues with funding overall. In nearly every area of the Department, I see the ways in which we do that. Obviously, the big one is sport, as it is a great way of bringing people together. In fact, I will have meetings later today about the work that I can do to bring communities together and about some of the diversionary activities that we need to have in place to deal with some of the problems that we face. Great work has been done by the community and voluntary sector organisations that we fund.

I can pull together something wider, Sian, but, certainly — I will bring Paul in on this — there is much that we can do on housing. We do it through sport and the voluntary and community sector and through many of the things that we do to bring people together through culture and communities.

Is there anything that you want to say on housing, Paul?

Mr Price: Yes. It is a subset of our social housing development programme (SHDP) and has its own target within the target for the programme. Last year's target was met. Ultimately, earlier in the year, because of uncertainty about SHDP funding overall, we flagged to TEO and the Minister that the target would not be met. Then £31 million was awarded in the monitoring round in December, and it was met. We face a similar outlook for this year. That is exactly the context for the need for budget certainty for that part of the SHDP and the SHDP as a whole.

Ms Mulholland: OK. That would be really good.

Minister, if you are going to send me through something further, I would love to see examples and proposals. I want to help; I want to be able to divert. That is the key thing here. This is not just a gotcha. I want to understand the proposals that are going forward.

Mr Lyons: I appreciate that, Sian. I have said already today that the proper role of a Committee is to advise and assist on the formulation and development of policy. That is what is said in the Standing Orders under the 1998 Act and in the Belfast Agreement. We have worked collaboratively, and I have done that with other members of the Committee as well.

Mr Chairman, I would like to see a lot more ideas from the Committee or individuals members, even if it is just short recommendations and papers that come through.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): You do not get to choose just two out of three, Minister. We also have a role to scrutinise, and we must do that.

Mr Lyons: No, no. I am just saying that that is what the Act says, Mr Chairman. I am not asking for full inquiries, but that would be helpful. Between the Department and the Committee, we are good at shuffling paper and asking questions, but I am talking about some firm, concrete proposals, such as those that you provided on the anti-poverty strategy and in the response from local councils. If you have concrete ideas, I am here to listen. We will implement them. We do not have a monopoly on wisdom by any means. If that is a constructive way in which we want to engage, Sian, I am up for that.

Ms Mulholland: I have one last question, and you will not be surprised to know that it is about arts funding. This week, Replay Theatre Company had to limit its work with disabled audiences. That falls under your remit of providing access to the arts for disabled people. There is uncertainty about arts funding. Where are we with that? Is it at a standstill? There are growing concerns about real-term reductions, and we are seeing that play out now.

Mr Lyons: That is a concern of mine, because, for many years, I have seen first-hand the impact that the arts can have and how they help us to tackle other pressing issues that we face in education, educational outcomes and health. We have been working on that. Unfortunately, however, right now — I believe that you will hear a little more from John and his team after me — we do not have a Budget agreed. I have sought to increase the arts budget every year, but that is becoming increasingly difficult.

I assure you — I hope that I have demonstrated it — that I want to see the budget increased. I have tried to increase and put additional allocation in to it. It has had significant cuts compared with the position 12 or 13 years ago. I am aware of that, as well as the many other pressures that we face, Sian.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): I share Sian's concern. We have recent correspondence from Equity raising concerns. It is a valuable but fragile sector, and harm to it can become permanent without intervention. It is a concern.

Mr Durkan: Thanks, Minister, Iain and Paul, for coming along. In your introduction and a couple of times since, Minister, you mentioned the difficult financial situation that the Department and all Departments find themselves in. We as a Committee and the SDLP as a party support any bid of yours for more money, particularly for housing. Housing needs to be a priority; I concur with you on that. You have also spoken of your desire to raise the budget for the arts, which, again, I am sure, we as a Committee and all parties will support.

We hope that we see a Budget come forward soon. We support the Executive's negotiations with Westminster for more money for the Executive, but, should the Budget not be agreed by the end of next month, where does that leave the Department when it comes to a 5% cut? What contingency planning is the Department doing? We hope that it does not come to that, but have you identified where and how that 5% cut would be made?

Mr Lyons: First, we need to get a Budget. We absolutely want one in place, and work is taking place between the Executive and the Government on that. The Budget that we have is not satisfactory. We can do more to save money in many areas, but those savings will be over the longer term. Bringing in the efficiencies and doing what needs to be done cannot be achieved in one year. The meetings that take place with the Treasury will reflect that. There needs to be some realism. We want to get on to a stable financial footing, but you cannot fix your house while it is on fire. We need stabilisation first, after which we can make the savings that need to be made.

We do not have an agreed Budget, but we are taking forward contingency planning to ensure that we would be prepared for all scenarios. We are looking at budget-saving measures that can be put in place. You know that I have put a high priority on making sure that we are as efficient as possible and use our resources in the right way. We are constrained as a Department, because our spend is in areas that cannot easily be rolled back. A lot of things will need to be considered. We will continue to monitor our financial position, identify opportunities to minimise expenditure and work towards ensuring that we are in a better financial position. Ultimately, however, the Budget that we have in place is not sufficient.

We have taken a good look at this. There is no low-hanging fruit any more. We have made considerable efforts at efficiency over the past couple of years, but what we would be asked to do would have a significant impact on people in Northern Ireland. I am not prepared to agree to a Budget that would cause harm.

Mr Durkan: We welcomed your statement to the Assembly during the week on the intermediate rent scheme and the progress that is being made on it. You said during your statement that more than 6,000 social homes are under construction across the North: I do not dispute that claim. However, someone looking at the number of starts that we have seen over each of the past three or four years would wonder how we got to the figure of 6,000 homes that are under construction. That is even allowing for the flurry of activity at the end of the previous financial year. Does the Department or do we have a publicly accessible tracking system to see what stage of development those homes are at? From looking at the figures, it appears that there are blockages and barriers to the completion of developments in some locations. Have those been identified?

Mr Lyons: Paul is in his element. He is itching to answer that question. He loves talking about it.

Mr Price: We need to provide you with information, but, in recent years, in pursuit of greater volumes, the programme has become more reliant on larger schemes. Larger schemes often involve complex timescales for the delivery of the units in the scheme, so we now have greater variety in the rate of completion, which can vary from two years to six years. Yes, we can track them all — I will share information to show you that we do not lose starts; they become completions — but that is why the number is high at the moment. It has to do with the pursuit of volume and scale, and we will be able to demonstrate that to you. I do not think that it is publicly available, but we will get some information to you.

Mr Durkan: It would be interesting to see whether it is like Magnus Magnusson saying, "I've started, so I'll finish". People need to know when those homes will be finished, particularly when there is a focus on meeting a target, which is one of the few targets set in the Programme for Government.

Finally, I have a question on the disabled facilities grant and on the work that is being done to speed up and streamline the process. You will have to do that in conjunction with the Department of Health, because of the number of people involved. An Assembly question was answered on that last week or the week before. People are dying while in the middle of that process and are therefore deriving no benefit from the adaptations that they require to see out their last years in dignity.

Mr Lyons: That is an absolute tragedy and a reminder for us all. We all see in our constituencies the human need and the difference that being able to stay in their home and to have support and care from family members can make to someone's life. You will be aware that the review is under way, and we are working closely with the Department of Health.

Paul, do you have an update on exactly where the review is?

Mr Price: I do. We will hopefully get the consultation document out for the review of private-sector grants, including the disabled facilities grant, in the next few weeks. We are already piloting, on a smaller scale, a fast-track version of the process for that group specifically. The consultation will reflect that. A small number of people are benefiting from that pilot right now. That is also part of the wide review of trying to compress timescales for all the other cases.

Mr Durkan: Is the review also looking at means testing and thresholds? Although the quantum of grant has increased over the years, the qualification criteria have not changed.

Mr Price: It is. When the document comes out, I will be happy to brief the Committee about it.

Ms K Armstrong: Coming in at the end means that members have already asked the questions that I wanted to ask, but, needless to say, you know that I always ask questions, Minister.

In your introduction, you mentioned that there would be four Bills in what remains of the mandate. We know about the Charities (Amendment) Bill, and we know that the housing Bill will not be introduced before the end of June. What are the other two that we can expect?

Mr Lyons: The four Bills cover charities, housing, fraud and pensions.

Ms K Armstrong: Of course, the pensions Bill. That is the big one. Thank you for that. That gives us an idea of the pressures that the Committee will face.

Mr Lyons: It is good to see you back, Kellie, by the way.

The pensions Bill may be delayed because of work that is being done at Westminster. That may affect the Assembly's processes, but it is important parity legislation, so I hope that, if its legislative passage needs to be sped up, there will be a little bit of sympathy from the Committee for doing that. The fault does not lie with us.

Ms K Armstrong: I appreciate that, Minister. Unfortunately, whatever Westminster's timetable is it throws us out.

The Committee had a good meeting with Paul to discuss the issues. I appreciate that your budget situation is difficult, Minister. Some social homes have been damaged or destroyed in the recent racist riots. It would be helpful if we can get an idea of the pressure that the cost of restoring those homes puts on you and the Housing Executive. Is any support available for tenants who had their windows smashed and so on? Will the Northern Ireland Office step in, or is that being left to the Housing Executive? I will keep on asking questions and leave you time to answer them.

Mr Lyons: For some of the answers, we will have to come back to you in writing, but I will address the questions to which I know the answers.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you.

Can you give the Committee an update on the important work that you are doing on the Sign Language Bill? It has not yet been signed off by the King, although that is not too far away.

My final question is on the preparations for the welfare mitigations. There is a cliff edge coming in 2028: can anything be done to prepare before the next mandate?

Mr Lyons: We will come back to you in writing on some of your questions. We will get you an update on the welfare mitigations, but, yes, constant work is being done to review them.

Iain can talk about the sign language work, but I have had some fantastic engagement over the past few weeks. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was invited by Pam Cameron to an event in her constituency with a number of deaf people. A few ideas came from that about how we can ensure that there is constant contact with groups. I do not in any way believe that, once the Bill is enacted, that is it and there is no more for us to do: absolutely not. I am committed to making sure that we continue to ensure that the Bill is just the start and that there is better provision overall. I will set up a series of consultation events through which we can continue to get in contact with people and see what needs to be done next. That was always our intention anyway, and I made such comments when the legislation passed.

Do you want to say anything about implementation, Iain?

Mr Iain Greenway (Department for Communities): Yes, Minister. Thank you for the question, Kellie. We await Royal Assent from the King, so it is still a Bill. We amended the Minister's statement to the Committee at the last minute, as we are still waiting for that.

The key elements in legislative terms are that a number of statutory rules need to come forward, one of which is to prescribe the relevant public bodies. When that is done — we are not waiting until it is done — we will need to get the guidance done, both statutory guidance and best practice tips and hints, shall we call them. It is about keeping those things separate so that we do not have a statutory process for best practice tips and hints.

The other strand is the work on the sign language framework. That will probably be consulted on together with the guidance in order to try to reduce the confusion that could be caused by having multiple consultations. In effect, the framework is the sign language policy. We will not change the name, however, because it has had that name for so long, but we do need to consult on it. That is being done in the wrong order, but we did not want to hold up the legislation in order to move on the policy. It has become part of the heritage, culture and creativity framework and very much recognises sign language as a cultural and linguistic artefact. It will have a framework within which it sits, but it will still have its place and will still be called a "framework", because, as I said, we have used that term for so long and do not want to cause confusion.

Tommy McAuley and his team are not letting up, and I expect some of the secondary legislation to be with the Committee well before the end of this mandate.

Ms K Armstrong: Thank you.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): You will come back in writing to Kellie with some of the other information.

Mr Lyons: Absolutely, yes.

Mr Allen: Minister, I know that there have been some difficult challenges for you with the Committee, but I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to work collaboratively. Throughout your tenure, you have engaged with me positively and have been receptive to anything that I have brought to you, so I appreciate that.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned the warm healthy homes fund, and, if I remember correctly, it is a £150 million fund. Where are we with that fund and with the moneys that will be earmarked for it? I know that you were engaging with Executive colleagues on the allocation of funding. We have the challenges with agreeing a Budget, but where are we with that fund?

Mr Lyons: That is still to be determined. I have to get the money from the Executive. I have not got it yet. We are still out to public consultation on the warm healthy homes fund. That consultation will close on 19 August. We will also hold stakeholder events in Belfast, Omagh and online. I will still be seeking that £150 million over five years, because that would enable positive changes and improvements to be made to more than10,500 homes. Unfortunately, we are in the same place as before: we are seeking that funding from the Executive, but it has not been allocated.

The appeal that I make to the Executive is this: we always say that we need to start spending money earlier. Here is a fantastic example of how we can do that and improve educational outcomes for children by making sure that they have a warm home in which to live. We can improve health outcomes by making sure that, instead of giving those who struggle to heat their home more money to pay their heating and electric bills, we invest in homes in order to generate savings over a longer period.

The affordable warmth scheme will continue until 2028. At the least, I expect the money that will have been allocated to that each year to be carried over, but I want to see the investment in it supercharged. What a fantastic initiative it is. We can see the real value that it has for people on the ground. We understand that there are lots of pressures, but, to me, that is a no-brainer.

Mr Allen: You highlighted the cross-departmental nature of the warm healthy homes fund. Every Department and every party will be arguing for funding for their respective Ministries. What has been the response to date from the Minister of Finance and the wider Executive about the allocation of £150 million to the fund?

Mr Lyons: I have had no response from the Finance Minister. Funding has not been agreed, and it is not part of the draft Budget, which is why I would not accept the draft Budget. It is essential that we get that funding in place, and I hope that that will happen. I hope that people will realise its importance. I know what you are saying, Andy: there are a lot of good initiatives in different Departments, but that fund can make a real difference to people's lives and save the wider public sector money in the longer term. I therefore encourage the Committee to make sure that we press Executive colleagues to make sure that the warm healthy homes scheme is funded.

Mr Allen: I absolutely agree with your view on the impact that the fund could have and how transformative it could be. I support you in getting the allocation, notwithstanding the challenges.

Paul, you highlighted the positive nature of having earmarked funding for the SHDP for the first time. What funding has been earmarked in the draft Budget? What will be required to deliver the scale of housing that is needed?

Mr Price: In addition to the money that we really need to deal with the starts that we already have in the bag — the 6,000 homes that Mark mentioned — the draft Budget proposes £107 million of reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI) funding. Department of Finance colleagues may be able to give you more details. We need a bit more than that, however, to have the budgetary capacity to achieve the end-of-mandate target. The draft Budget has left the Department perhaps £15 million to £20 million short.

Mr Allen: I will touch base with the Department of Finance on that matter. It may be able to share more detail with us.

Minister, you mentioned the 17% uptick in social housing delivery. The housing associations have raised concerns about the challenging landscape with the grant award. You said that not all of the 17% is attributable to the change that you made to the grant: can you segregate what is attributable to the change to the grant and what is not?

Mr Lyons: No. That is hard to do, because so many factors are at play in the number of social homes that are built. Much of it is down to the additional funding we were able to put in place. There were warnings that the change to the grant could almost cause social housing construction to dry up altogether, but that is not going to happen. The important point that is often missed is that it was not about our taking with one hand and expecting the housing associations to do more; we are working in partnership with them. Since I came into office, housing associations have told me that houses could be built more cost-effectively, because not all homes need to be built to the same standard. We can build them more cheaply, for want of a better word, and that is why the design review is in place. A significant sum of money can be saved, even if it is only 1%, 2% or 3% a home. That all adds up, however, over the number of homes that we are building to give us a little extra. The extra few houses that can be built each year will make a difference.

Mr Allen: Can you say whether any of the 17% is attributable to the changes that you made?

Mr Lyons: I cannot say that specifically for the period. Is it fair to say, Paul, that we will have a better picture once full-year figures are available?

Mr Price: A big chunk of last year's homes were built under the old terms, but a significant minority were built on the new terms. Within that significant minority, we yielded a number of houses that we would not have had under the old terms. The number will be small because of the proportion of homes in last year's programme that were built under the new terms, but the number will be bigger next year.

Mr Allen: OK. Are you confident that the warnings that the housing associations conveyed to us will not materialise?

Mr Price: The housing associations have participated in the two reviews. We should have a proposal that, in both of our terms, maximises the number of houses that we get for our grant by making sure that their design provides good value for money. The housing associations also have a role to play in that.

Mr Allen: Absolutely. I look forward to monitoring the figures as we move forward, and hopefully we will not see any of the negative impact that the housing associations highlighted.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Andy, your time is almost up. Go ahead, briefly.

Mr Allen: I will ask about something that you said in the Chamber, Minister, and then take up the other issues with you offline.

In the Chamber earlier this month, when responding to a question for oral answer about the Right to Try work scheme, you highlighted employability and the need to support more people into employment. Your approach at the moment is to monitor the implementation of Right to Try in GB. Do you have a timeline for that? I did not hear you indicate one in the Chamber.

Mr Lyons: No, but it will be when there has been time enough for us to see the changes that are brought in and whether there has been any impact there. I am not aware of any specific time frame, Andy, but I am more than happy to ask officials whether they know anything about one. I am sure that a note of your question is being taken, and we can get back to you. I will, however, emphasise how important it is that we ensure that we break down all possible barriers to work, and that is what I am committed to doing.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): Maurice, you were looking to ask a very brief and concise follow-up question to a point that Kellie made.

Mr Bradley: Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, may we have an update — if not now, perhaps in writing — on benefit fraud and economic inactivity? I ask that because my area is one from the bottom when it comes to economic activity. Can you give us a rundown of what your Department is doing to address benefit fraud and the lack of economic activity?

Mr Lyons: I am happy to update you on the benefit fraud work and show you its impact. That is important. Benefit fraud costs us £340 million a year, so it is a massive issue, but the economic inactivity rates in Northern Ireland are even more important to address. We need to deal with them. Our economic inactivity is the single biggest challenge that we face as a society. I do not say that lightly. I say it because we are talking about massive sums of money being required to keep people as they are now. We should be investing money in helping to get people better and into work or in helping them with their conditions so that they can move into work. It is one of the biggest challenges of our time. That is why our society does not have the economic growth that we need.

If we get that economic growth, we can properly fund our public services. That goes to the heart of our challenges. I will work with anyone on the Committee to make progress on that, because it is one of the most important issues that we face. People are languishing on welfare. I was on the radio a few weeks ago, and I said that I wanted the welfare bill in Northern Ireland to be lower. I do not think that the presenter could believe that I was saying such a thing, because that is not what politicians do. Politicians trip over themselves to show how compassionate they are, but, if we really care about people, we need to give them the tools and support to get them into work, because other people are bearing the burden of their not being in work.

The Chairperson (Mr Gildernew): OK. Thank you, Minister, Paul and Iain. We appreciate your attendance at the Committee and look forward to speaking to you in due course.

Mr Lyons: Thank you.