Official Report: Minutes of Evidence

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Joining us today are Emily Murray, Saul Wilton, Sarah Agnew, Odhrán Carlin and Tomila Staugaite — I hope that I have pronounced that correctly. You are all very welcome; we appreciate your time. The Committee wants to be clear from the outset that we value the input of the Youth Assembly. It is always a pleasure to engage with you to hear your input. Particularly with legislation, it is so important that we hear your perspective. Thank you for your time today.

I appreciate that it is, for some of you, your first time presenting to a Committee. You may be feeling nervous. Or perhaps not. If there are any questions that you need anyone to repeat, just ask. If there is anything that you do not feel you are in a position to answer, it is OK to say that. Please feel free to get any clarification that you need on anything that any member raises with you.

This briefing is on the Education (Holiday Meal Payments) Bill. I will make a start. Your briefing is very clear that you strongly support the Bill. It came through strongly that Youth Assembly Members felt that the intervention proposed in the Bill should be a priority. I am happy to open the discussion up. Can you set out in a little bit more detail why you think the Bill is important and why you think it is a priority to take it forward?

Mr Saul Wilton (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): Ninety-five per cent of Members said that this should be a priority. I will begin by providing some background to the Youth Assembly. The Youth Assembly was established in June 2021 and is made up of 90 diverse Members aged 12 to 16 from all constituencies. It has representation across the section 75 categories, including gender, sexuality, disability, race and political opinion, and it includes care-experienced young people and those on free school meals. My fellow Youth Assembly Members and I have been in our roles since November 2025. On 19 June, we met online with Danny Baker MLA to consider the Education (Holiday Meal Payments) Bill. Today, we will represent the key findings from that discussion. The full report has already been sent and should be in your packs.

The Youth Assembly has a particularly strong interest in this issue because it aligns directly with our Committee work on the cost of education. In that project, Members have been examining the financial pressures faced by families, including the cost of food, uniforms and transport. Evidence that we have heard consistently highlights the fact that food costs are one of the most significant challenges, especially for families on low incomes. That has helped to build our understanding of how financial pressures during school holidays can impact on young people's well-being and their ability to engage fully in education. Members were particularly conscious that poverty has a significant and lasting impact on young people and that early intervention is key to preventing those effects from becoming more severe over time.

I will now hand over to Odhrán, who will begin by setting out the Youth Assembly's views on the Education (Holiday Meal Payments) Bill, starting with awareness of holiday hunger and views on the current system.

Mr Odhrán Carlin (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): Good afternoon. I will begin by discussing awareness of holiday hunger and our views on current school meal provision. Fifty-eight per cent of Youth Assembly Members said that they had seen or heard of young people struggling to access enough food. Highlighting the fact that this is a real and visible issue in communities across Northern Ireland, Members shared personal experiences and observations of peers going without food or relying on very limited options. Some highlighted stigma, inequality and the normalisation of food insecurity in certain areas. Some Youth Assembly Members had direct experience of the holiday food support provided during the COVID-19 pandemic. Members said that such support could make a meaningful difference for families and help to reduce financial pressure. Reinforcing the importance of continuing a similar approach, we explored how fair it is that free school meals stop during the holidays. No Member felt that the current situation was fair, emphasising that the need for food does not stop when school closes. Many Members said that holidays can increase financial pressure on families, especially when parents must provide additional meals and reduce working hours for childcare. Overall, Members believe that the current system does not reflect the realities that families face and that change is needed.

I will hand over to Sarah, who will discuss how support should be delivered and whether families should be trusted with payments.

Ms Sarah Agnew (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): I want to explore how support should be delivered and views on trust and flexibility.

Youth Assembly Members showed a preference for direct financial support. Fifty-eight per cent said that payments would be the best way to support families during school holidays, compared with 25% who preferred food programmes and 17% who chose vouchers. Members said that cash provides flexibility and allows families to meet individual needs including dietary requirements and personal preferences. They said that vouchers can be restrictive and inconsistent and that food provision may not always be suitable.

Members raised concerns about stigma, saying that more visible forms of support such as food banks, vouchers or meals provision can make young people and families feel singled out or embarrassed, which may discourage some from accessing support at all. In contrast, cash payments were seen as more discreet and dignified, allowing families to access support without drawing attention to their circumstances. That aligns with evidence presented by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY), who told the Committee on 17 June that, having considered a range of models, direct payment was the preferred approach as it best upheld the dignity of children and families.

Another issue that we explored was whether families should be trusted to use the payments appropriately. The majority of Members agreed that families should be trusted to use payments in a way that supported their children. Although some raised concerns about potential misuse, they suggested that such incidents should be addressed through existing services rather than restricting support for all families.

I will hand over to Emily, who will discuss funding and whether it should be a priority.

Ms Emily Murray (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): I am going to discuss funding and prioritisation of the Bill. When asked about funding, the majority of Youth Assembly Members agreed that the scheme should be funded through the Department of Education's budget, recognising the link between nutrition and the ability to learn. The Department already has responsibility for free school meals, so it makes sense that holiday meals would be its responsibility.

Members said that children cannot participate fully in education if they are hungry and linked that to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). Members referred in particular to the right to an adequate standard of living, including access to food, under article 27; the right to the highest attainable standard of living and health, under article 24; and the right to education, under article 28. They emphasised that those rights were interconnected and that failing to address food insecurity risks undermined a child's ability to learn, develop and thrive.

While Members did not focus on the exact level of payment proposed in the Bill, there was a clear view that any support must be equal to the value of free school meals payments during term time. Some recognised the pressure on the Education budget and suggested that the issue could be approached in a more collaborative way across government, given that holiday hunger affects education, health and well-being. Members highlighted the potential for shared responsibility across Departments. They felt, however, that the Department of Education should take a leading role in coordinating that work given the clear link to children's learning and educational outcomes.

Members were asked:

Ninety-five per cent said that it should. Members emphasised that food is a basic need and should be prioritised accordingly.

I will hand over to Tomila, who will conclude on behalf of the Youth Assembly.

Ms Tomila Staugaite (Northern Ireland Youth Assembly): I will summarise the overall views on the Bill. We understand that the Bill may not be perfect, but there is a clear willingness to support its overall aims and see it progress. When asked whether the Assembly should pass it, 90% of Members voted "Yes". Those who voted "Not sure" or "No" suggested that the Bill should be expanded, particularly its eligibility, scope and funding. Members recognise the impact of food insecurity on young people's well-being and education and believe that the Bill is an important step towards addressing the issue. When asked what one change they would make to improve the Bill, many Members said that it should go further by expanding eligibility or moving towards a more universal approach. There were particular concerns about families who are just above the current threshold but still experience financial pressure. Members emphasised the importance of ensuring that the Bill applies consistently across all stages of education so that no child is excluded owing to age or school setting.

Members also highlighted some practical considerations about how the scheme would operate. One such question is about the frequency of payments. More regular payments may better support families in managing costs. There is a concern that the "relevant periods" mentioned in clause 2 do not include bank holidays and other school closure days, which could leave gaps at times when families still need assistance. Introducing and managing the scheme to include those days may be more difficult to administer, given the different dates on which schools choose to close, but that surely can be overcome. In our discussions, some Members pointed to Scotland, where all children in primary 1 to primary 5 are entitled to free school meals regardless of their income. Members saw that as a potential model for reducing stigma and ensuring that support reaches more young people who need it.

In summary, the Youth Assembly supports the aims of the Bill. Members believe that no child should go hungry during school holidays or any school closure, and the legislation has the potential to make a meaningful difference. Thank you for listening. We welcome your questions.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you to all of you. It might have been because of the heat in the room, but I launched into my question and did not ask you to make your opening remarks. Thank you for understanding the processes of the Committee better than I do. [Laughter.]

I am glad that you are all here to keep me right in delivering your presentation. Thank you for setting that out so clearly.

My first question, as you heard, was to ask you to set out why you feel that the Bill is so important. Your opening remarks have covered that in detail, so I will not revisit it. I will ask about the issue that Sarah referred to, which was the best method of making the payment. There has been some discussion, both at the Bill's Second Stage and here in the Committee, about the risk attached to a cash-based payment, but you were clear that Members felt that cash-based payments were the right approach. Will you tell us a bit more about why that is the right approach?

Ms Agnew: Yes. There is a stigma attached to vouchers. Cash is more discreet. Everybody carries cash, so, unlike with a voucher, nobody will notice when you use cash in a shop. It also allows more choice, because a voucher can be used only for certain things. Cash allows more range, especially for people who have to meet dietary preferences and needs. Cash would be better, because it reduces the stigma of poverty and allows people to go into a shop with dignity.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you for that. It is important to hear you expand on that issue. I will ask one other question. In a lot of schools that I visit, school leaders are keen on anything that they can do in school to reduce the stigma for children receiving free school meals. It should be seamless. Nobody should know who gets free school meals and who does not. Is there stigma attached to receiving free school meals? Do young people still face that in school, or has it been largely dealt with?

Ms Agnew: Now, with technology, it is easier to make sure that people do not know who gets free school meals. In the past, you used to get different tickets, depending on whether you got free school meals. Now, because most schools have a cashless system, not many people know. Technology has helped in that way, meaning that not many people know who gets free school meals.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): It would be slightly odd to move to a situation where people are potentially stigmatised for receiving payments in the summer, given that they do not experience that at school.

Ms Agnew: Yes.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): That makes sense. Thank you for addressing that. I wanted to pick up on that point, because it has received a fair bit of discussion at Committee at different stages. Those are all of my questions. I am happy to pass over to the Deputy Chair, and we will then open it up to other members.

Mr Sheehan: I am going to allow Danny to take the lead.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): No problem.

Mr Baker: Thank you all, because you said everything that I have said about the Bill. I completely agree that it does not go far enough; it is only one piece of a wider puzzle. I was very interested to hear about the 10% who did not agree with the Bill, but they did so because they feel that it does not go far enough. That is a really powerful statement. We need to do even more than what my private Member's Bill proposes. Of course, we need to work towards universal free school meals. We definitely do. However, my proposals will always be separate from universal free school meals, because they will always be needed by a cohort of children.

Do you have any personal experience of classmates or peers who return to school and are impacted by that issue? There might be a lot of poverty at home, meaning that they come to school malnourished and have to try to catch up. I see it like this: how can they focus on education when they are hungry, especially given the fact that the summer period is nearly nine weeks?

Ms Staugaite: My cousin has experienced that issue. She gets free school meals. Her mum is the hardest-working person ever. She relies on the Government to help her to get money. During summer breaks, or any holidays for that matter, she struggles to get food due to the fact that she often does not have enough, as she has to cover rent and other important bills. My cousin has often been bullied for receiving free school meals not just by classmates but by other people in our family. That is absolutely unacceptable. You should not judge someone else's financial state. Way before the Bill was introduced, my aunt and I discussed what she would think, were such a thing to happen. She responded that she would definitely want it to happen, as it would help her to pay her bills and rent and get clothes and basic necessities for her children.

Mr Baker: Thank you. That shows the importance of the Bill. It is about trying to lift people out of poverty and give young people opportunities. My kids will never have to experience it, but I received free school meals when I was at school. It was back in the days when you had to go up and collect a ticket. When you were in primary school, it was OK, because you did not pick up on it, but you fairly picked up on it when you were in secondary school. Growing up, my friends and I were all poor, but we did not realise it. You get by. [Interruption.]

You covered everything. It is fantastic that you have a real understanding of what I am trying to do as well as of the pitfalls. If I were to critique my Bill, that is exactly how I would do it: it does not go far enough, but it is definitely a start. I believe that Education is the driver for it, and when it comes to the funding, I make that point. I get it; it will put pressures on other things that the Minister might want to do, but the Bill is the priority. Other Departments need to do more. Rather than sharing it out, they should come up with their own ideas so that we complete another piece of the puzzle of ending child poverty.

I want to ask you all for one wee favour. I do not want to get too far ahead of myself, but it is going well. If the Bill gets over the line and passes Final Stage, will you join me in the Great Hall to take a massive picture to celebrate? I commit that, if I am back here after the next election, I will work with you on more legislation to end child poverty, which could include universal free school meals.

Mr Wilton: One hundred per cent.

Mr Baker: Thank you. I love that answer: straight away, 100%. That is good. Thank you so much.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): If only all our witnesses' answers could be so straight to the point. [Laughter.]

We would get a lot more done.

Mr Brooks: Thank you for your presentation. There were some important points in it. I think that Tomila mentioned families who may just miss out. That does not just happen in this instance, but we quite often see such bars and the same criteria being used in any welfare support.

Working families who miss out often miss out on everything and, as a result, find themselves less well off than those who get supported. That feels unfair to many of them, and it has been expressed to me many times. It also undermines the principle that those who can work should work and see the benefit of that work whilst, at the same time, we support those who are not able to work.

Points were made about how this would allow people to help pay their rent or get clothes. Danny talked about lifting people out of poverty. Those are all noble aims that everybody will share. My problem is that I know that those are the responsibilities of another Department: the Department for Communities. How we do these things matters, so when we talk about food supporting people's educational development and so on, that is not true. We can draw looser lines, but, by and large, that is not true of a payment during the summer. My thought is that that is a welfare payment that should be there to support families who cannot afford basic needs, and they should be getting a level of welfare that allows them to do that. With that in mind, why do you think that the Education Department specifically should be the lead Department or, in this case, the sole Department?

Mr Wilton: The majority of Members said that it should come from the Education budget because there is a link between food, learning and outcomes. If you do not have food and you are hungry, you will not learn. I know that, and I am sure that you all have experience of that. You do not take in information when you are hungry.

Mr Brooks: I agree with that. I just think that we are sometimes talking past each other when it comes to the Bill. That is certainly true of free school meals, which I support. I am asking why a holiday hunger payment is specific to the Education Department rather than the Department for Communities. I am not arguing that it should not be done and that we should not be feeding hungry children — of course we should — but why should it be the Education Department during a school holiday period?

Mr Wilton: The Department of Education already funds free school meals, so it should extend that. The Youth Assembly has said that, if it needs to come from other areas, that can be facilitated but only as a last resort. There are other areas in which there could be cuts to fund free school meals over the summer, because, as we said, 95% of our Members see it as a priority.

Mr Brooks: We are looking at an Education budget next year that will face pressures of up to £600 million. That means that there is a black hole of £600 million in the Education budget. The context in which we are looking at this is the pressure on Education specifically. That is why it is so important that we look at what budget it should come from.

I suggested previously — I think that someone touched on it — that it is a cross-cutting issue. The problem that I see is that we are not having that interaction at the Executive. Even those from Danny's party — Danny brought the Bill with genuine motives — have paid nothing into this other than lip service. Do you not agree that it affects Health and is arguably more important when it comes to health? We need help from the Finance Minister in supporting that. We need help from the Communities Department. The Minister for Communities is from my party, but I think that it is the most relevant Department to look at this. I am not trying to shirk that responsibility. Those Departments all have a role to play. Do you agree with that?

Mr Wilton: Yes. As we say, that should be a last resort, and that is what the young people have fed back.

Mr Brooks: I take your point, but I would not say that it should be a last resort. Having Departments that have a responsibility all working together is a good way of doing government. That is something that we work on constantly in this Committee. I understand why all of you and all of us want to see that need in society met, but I am not sure that the Education Department, with the pressures that it is facing when it comes to school estate and a ream of other things, including SEN, should be the Department responsible for making welfare payments. Does anyone else want to comment?

Ms Murray: I think that it is —

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): A brief line to finish, Emily. That would be great.

Ms Murray: — a cross-government issue, but the different Departments should work together to help. The Education Department already funds free school meals, and a programme like this was brought in during COVID. When COVID happened, you provided free school meals for those who could not afford food.

We know that schools are off in summertime, but those children still need to be fed. Poverty does not stop when school ends. If those children already get free school meals, a payment, be it weekly, monthly or whatever, should be made to those families who need help. I do not know why that cannot be done

Mr Brooks: I appreciate the answer. What I will say, however, is that what happened during COVID was an emergency response. Lots of the things that we did during COVID should not necessarily be the model for things done in the here and now. Thank you very much for your response.

Mrs Middleton: Thank you all for being here today and for your really passionate and articulate answers. The session has been very encouraging. To be clear, I fully believe that there is not one Member of the Assembly or even a person countrywide who does not want to see children get adequate food. I do not want to be worrying about where a child's next meal is coming from.

As I said, you have been very articulate. I hear the points that you are making, but I share some of the concerns that David expressed. If the Bill were to pass, how would you foresee the Department of Education balancing its budget to meet competing needs? What if there were another emergency circumstance or urgent need? I am interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Ms Agnew: That is not something that Youth Assembly Members really discussed, but the Department could look at things that are not as important or as big an issue, such as mobile phone pouches. We know that the Department is rolling out a lot of money to trial them. Children's mobile phone use is obviously an issue, but children going hungry over the summer is a bigger issue.

Mrs Middleton: That is very interesting. Thank you for that. The Minister of Education did not pull out of thin air the idea to introduce mobile phone pouches. It was based on a lot of evidence on the impact of mobile phones on children's mental health and learning. I come from a teaching background, and I can be a terrible one for doomscrolling, so I know the effect that a mobile phone has on my own concentration. I hear your answers, however. You articulated very well your answers to David's questions, which were similar to mine. Thank you very much for your time.

Mrs Guy: Thank you, folks. As usual, you have provided us with some really interesting insights. Your presentations were very mature and well reasoned, so thank you for them.

I will pick up on a couple of points that have been made and look at them from another perspective to see what you think. For example, it has been said that making holiday meal payments is not the Department of Education's responsibility. There is the argument that if kids are not in school, the Department of Education does not have an obligation to them during that period.

I am a mum, and, during school holidays, my kids often get homework to do or have to prepare for exams. That homework or work for exams is set by teachers and the school. Does that not make the case for why the Department should continue to feed those kids during the summer holiday period?

Mr Wilton: Yes. I do not see how children can be expected to revise or work to a standard that will benefit them educationally if they are focused on needing food and being hungry. They will be worrying about where their next meal is coming from, and that will automatically be put before any homework or any educational goal that they are trying to achieve.

Ms Murray: I will pick up on Saul's point. I have just finished my last year of GCSEs. Last year, before we finished year 11 and went off for the summer, we started on work for year 12. We were told to continue looking over stuff over the summer so that we would be prepared and able to hit the ground running in the new term in order to get ready for the bulk of our GCSEs at the end of that school year. Perhaps not for all years but at least up to the GCSE years, the payment should come from the Department of Education. If we are having to do extra work over the summer for our GCSEs and work hard for our exams, no one should be put at a disadvantage that could affect their future. Money should continue to be provided so that children can be fed. If they cannot afford school meals, they should continue to get that payment so that they can work to the best of their ability in order to have the best possible future.

Mrs Guy: When the Department is measuring educational underachievement or schools' success, one of the measures that it uses is GCSE results, but we have a cohort of kids who are not on a level playing field with everybody else during holiday periods. They are still involved in education, even if they are not in the school.

It was said that the COVID payment was made in what was an emergency situation. Could the case be made that child poverty is an emergency situation and that, as a result, we should use a scheme that has been proven to help in such an emergency? It worked before, so it can work again.

Ms Agnew: Yes.

Ms Murray: Yes.

Mrs Guy: Do you want to say any more about that? I am glad that you agree. [Laughter.]

Ms Murray: Child poverty is an emergency situation. People are being disadvantaged. I will speak from personal experience again. I have a friend in my year who has mentioned the lack of food in their house. They will make one pot of noodles, and that will last them for their breakfast, lunch and dinner. They are having to live off that little amount of food. I am grateful that I am more privileged. I can go to the cupboard and take a snack whenever I want to. My mum will make me breakfast and dinner: the full, nutritional meals that my friend may not get. COVID happened rapidly and was therefore an emergency situation. The COVID scheme, however, proved that this can be done, so it can be done again. Child poverty is a serious issue, and it has to be dealt with. That has been proven to be possible, so it can be dealt with again. It can be done to help those children.

Mr Carlin: If the Bill passes, it will ensure that young people get the nutrition that they need in order to stay healthy and learn effectively so that, in the end, they can reach their full potential. Without the legislation, it will be harder for that to happen, because parents will have to come out of work to feed them. That means that they will lose money, which will make the situation even harder. In general, the Bill will help them.

Mrs Guy: Thank you. Your points are well thought through and mature. Thank you all for your contributions. I appreciate them.

Ms Hunter: It is such a privilege to have you with us. Saul is from my constituency. We share a youth club, which is great. You all have been so articulate this afternoon. Michelle raised a fantastic point. A big aspect of this is the summer schemes and extracurricular activities that our young people take part in. We want to make sure that their tummies are full so that they can focus and have opportunities to develop outside of school. I support every point that you have made, but, out there, there are taxpayers saying the Bill is ridiculous, that it should not go through and that it is expensive. What do you say to those who are against the Bill and who take that line when it comes to holiday hunger?

Ms Agnew: They may not have children and not understand how big an issue it is. If something is not done about it now, there will be more people in poverty. In the long run, that will cost the Government more money, because more people, who as children did not get the support that they needed, will enter poverty later in life. The situation therefore needs to be tackled and sorted out now at the root so that there is more money for the economy and for other Departments.

Mr Carlin: The Bill will help not just the 90,000 children of today but the children of the future who will also need that help. Who knows how many it will help? The number could run into the hundreds of thousands.

Ms Staugaite: To add to that, the taxpayers —.

Ms Hunter: Absolutely. It is about future-proofing. Sorry. Go ahead.

Ms Staugaite: The taxpayers who disagree with the Bill probably have not thought about it much or properly. If they had, why would they disagree with a Bill that could help children in poverty — children who cannot study because of a lack of resources, a lack of food and a lack of drinks — with their education and future so that they can get university scholarships and good jobs?

Children in poverty are people too. They have emotions as well. I know that, if I were a child in poverty hearing about this Bill, I would want it to become law. It will help not only me but every single child in Northern Ireland. It will help parents so that they can pay for other things as well. It will help every single person who gets free school meals and everybody else involved. Taxpayers who think that the Bill should not be passed need to think about what their situation would be like if they were a child in poverty. Poverty can mean different things. It does not necessarily mean having a house but not being able to afford food. It could mean being homeless and out on the streets, eating only stale bread or stuff from bins.

Those children want just a free, warm meal. If the Department of Education cares so much about them but does not —. Sorry, I have lost my thread.

Ms Hunter: No, what you say is absolutely spot on. Thank you so much for your passion. I can really tell that what everyone on the panel is saying is coming from the heart. When I have not eaten and have to focus at work, I know that I can even get hangry. There is therefore an emotional regulation and behavioural element to making sure that young people are fed. It helps them focus. That is all part of it. You are all very articulate young people. We have our listening ears on today, and we are really grateful to have you share your lived experience and that of your classmates.

Mr Burrows: Sorry for missing the start of your presentation. I was at City Hall, and the traffic was mad. I sat in it for about 30 minutes.

Mr Baker: He needed his satnav to get here. [Laughter.]

Mr Burrows: It is true. I then tried to find a way around the traffic, but —

Mr Sheehan: He is a cop.

Mr Burrows: — could I find a way? The satnav was therefore on, for which I apologise. I did read your written brief. Thank you for coming to the Committee and for your passion and the quality of your briefing paper.

I have a couple of questions. It is universally accepted that every child has a right to have quality food, the best opportunity and a level playing field. The question is this: how do we achieve that? It strikes me that free school meals is an education policy at school but that, once it is widened, that policy becomes almost an income-replacement policy and therefore a wider benefits issue.

Let me address one specific point. Your written brief, if I have read it correctly, talks about eventually expanding holiday payments to universal eligibility, meaning that everyone would get free school meals during holiday periods. If the logical extension of that is that free school meals that children currently get should be given to children who are in receipt of them when they are off, should universal school meal provision not also apply to everybody during term time? Are you saying that, aspirationally, every single child in Northern Ireland should get free school meals and that their parents should get a contribution towards feeding them when they are not at school? That is the logical extension of your rationale.

Ms Agnew: I totally agree with what you are saying, but we did not really discuss that. We just said there should be free school meals down the line for everybody in school. That would give them a better start in school, and if they get a better start in school, they can concentrate better. It is a small step towards tackling poverty. We are not saying that doing that will solve child poverty. We look to Scotland, where all children from P1 to P5 get school meals, regardless of their family's financial income. All children should be able to eat in school.

Mr Burrows: There is a really good argument for a really nutritious meal at school for everybody. In the long term, that might pay for itself and more.

You mentioned that every child should have a hot meal or a quality meal. If we are to give parents or guardians an additional sum that is paid directly into their bank account — this is not me being judgemental or critical, but it is public money, and we need to make sure that it is spent wisely and, if we are spending it to help children, that it goes to children — how can we ensure that that they will turn that money into a nutritious meal that their son or daughter will eat?

Ms Agnew: We cannot 100% guarantee that it will be spent on that, but we trust that parents who are in absolute poverty will want to give their children the best start in life. We trust that, if they see that their children are hungry and know that they have been given money to provide for them, they will want to feed them. It is a risk to give out public money, and will that to happen, but if those parents are really desperate, they will feed their children, because they want to give them the best start in life.

Mr Burrows: This will be my final question. I really love the work that you do.

Theresa May referred to people who are "just about managing". Some people in society work really hard but are just about managing. I hear a lot from constituents who are in that position — I used to volunteer at food banks, and my parents grew up with very little, so there is no judgement in this — that they often wonder what the incentive is for doing that. There can be a degree of legitimate resentment if provision for others is then expanded. How do we manage that and make sure that we do not send the wrong signal to those who will only just miss out? There is always a cut-off point at some point with benefits.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): As I said at the start, if there are any questions that you feel that you have not covered in your prep for the session, it is OK for you to decline to answer them. We understand that there is only so much that you can prepare for in the time that you have.

Mr Burrows: I am only looking to help. I am trying to pitch it to those who would be just missing out on the holiday payments to ensure that we do not undermine the legitimacy of something by not bringing along with us that cadre of people. For the people who are very wealthy, it does not matter, but there are people on the borderline who just miss out who sometimes feel that they are knocking their pan in for nothing.

Ms Agnew: The threshold for getting free school meals should be looked at. There is a global state of poverty, so the threshold should be looked at. People who are working and just getting by should be considered for free school meals, because, at the end of the day, everybody needs to eat and to be comfortable. The threshold needs to be right, however, for those people who are working and feel that they are not being rewarded. As the Chair said, however, we have not really covered that issue.

Mr Burrows: Very good. Thank you for your evidence. It was tremendous. I would love to see you back in the Assembly sitting on the blue seats in the Chamber as Ulster Unionist MLAs. I am just putting that out there.

Mr Baker: You can take Jon's seat.

The Chairperson (Mr Mathison): Thank you, Jon.

We heard evidence from the Children's Commissioner on that final point about the percentage of people who live in poverty who are entitled to free school meals. He said that raising the income threshold would potentially bring a lot more of those people who are in poverty into scope. Your point was very well made, Sarah, and it was clear that you were thinking it through in real time. It is very impressive to be able to do that. You can all prepare as much as you can, but you never know what questions you may be asked. We really appreciate the Youth Assembly's input into the Bill's Committee Stage.

That brings our evidence session to an end. I am sure that you are all ready for some fresh air, because it is very warm in here. We look forward to engaging with the Youth Assembly on other issues as our work continues throughout what is left of the mandate.